The demon clown optomisation

[wunderkid]

Hey I'm toying about with a new build at the moment and just wanted some feedback on on how to jingle it all together.

Currently what I have is:
Stats:
16 dex, 15 cha, 14 con, 13 wis, 10 int, 8 str
Race: Tiefling variant / lightfoot halfling / half elf - wood elf varient
Starting at level 7
1 life cleric
3 rogue - trickster
3 bard - lore

Final: 9 rogue - for magical ambush
10 bard - for 5th level spells and magical secrets
1 cleric - for goodberry and aura shenanigans through disciple of life

The 'style' behind this character is in essence a jester. He vanishes, pops up to confuse and mess with his enemies then disappears again. This is achieved through cunning action and spells or mage hand to pickpocket things. He also has some utility with being able to heal allies when necessary.

He has a whole hoast of expertise, I'm thinking stealth, sleight of hand, deception and I'm unsure of the rest.

So both in and outside of combat he should have a host of utility, he functions as a 14th level caster so he should have enough slots to last the day. But has respectable sneak attack damage where necessary.

So basically what I want to know is:
Is the cleric dip worth it?
What spells would make good choices?
What feats may improve this or should I stick to ASIs to try and get better stats (20 dex is what I'm mainly aiming for)
What magical equipment would best suit this? So far I've earmarked cloak of elven kind and the bard magical items.
Is magical ambush worth it? Or should I go bard 16/rogue 3/ cleric 1, or rogue 2/bard16/cleric1 or rogue 3/bard 17 to get those 9th level spells.
And lastly what are the big weaknesses and threats you can see to this build?
What are good magical secrets to go for?

Many thanks as always

[Foxhound438]

goodberry scales incredibly poorly, even with the life disciple shenanigans. If you want Life domain to do you a lot of good, go for Aura of Vitality instead. 20d6+50 HP between combats vs. flat 60 from GB at the same slot level, and the best part is you can turn this on IN COMBAT, and start picking people up on bonus actions while still doing damage

Needing 3 stats to get the classes you want and con to not die is also a bit suboptimal; I'd personally drop cleric altogether. end up 9 rogue 11 bard, 6th level spells at the end.

If you do still want life cleric, start Bard 6 Cleric 1, then start taking rogue levels after that.

Edit: if you can find a way to jam in 1 level of fighter for two weapon fighting style, that will help your sneak attack damage quite a lot; 2 attacks are better than 1.

[SliceandDiceKid]

goodberry scales incredibly poorly, even with the life disciple shenanigans. If you want Life domain to do you a lot of good, go for Aura of Vitality instead. 20d6+50 HP between combats vs. flat 60 from GB at the same slot level, and the best part is you can turn this on IN COMBAT, and start picking people up on bonus actions while still doing damage

Needing 3 stats to get the classes you want and con to not die is also a bit suboptimal; I'd personally drop cleric altogether. end up 9 rogue 11 bard, 6th level spells at the end.

If you do still want life cleric, start Bard 6 Cleric 1, then start taking rogue levels after that.

Edit: if you can find a way to jam in 1 level of fighter for two weapon fighting style, that will help your sneak attack damage quite a lot; 2 attacks are better than 1.

You can fight with 2 weapons without the style... That's a waste of a feature for someone trying to optimize.

More thoughts on their way in a few minutes.

Start cleric for heavy armor...

[wunderkid]

Heavy armour just doesn't mesh with this build unfortunately as it makes heavy use of stealth. Plus I'll be maxing dex pretty quickly so I won't be far behind plate. Unless I bank on finding mithril plate but I'd rather get a cloak of elven kind. Double proficiency + advantage + giving them disadvantage means I shouldn't need a high AC most of the time and if I took armour that also has a str req.

The cleric is in there because well I have the 13 I certainly wouldn't spend any more to get a multiclass but the aura of life shenanigans do seem quite handy. May drop that aspect all together though. After all healing was more of a tertiary idea rather than a core focus.

[JackPhoenix]

goodberry scales incredibly poorly, even with the life disciple shenanigans. If you want Life domain to do you a lot of good, go for Aura of Vitality instead. 20d6+50 HP between combats vs. flat 60 from GB at the same slot level, and the best part is you can turn this on IN COMBAT, and start picking people up on bonus actions while still doing damage.

Main strength of Goodberry is that they allow you to transfer healing from spell slots between long rests: at the end of the day, you use all your remaining spell slots to create goodberries that can be eaten the next day to heal you without using up spell slots to do so. A lot of healing from Aura of Vitality will also be wasted if you don't need its full effect, with Goodberry, you can use up as much as you need.

It's about long-term efficiency, not short-term power.

[PoeticDwarf]

Main strength of Goodberry is that they allow you to transfer healing from spell slots between long rests: at the end of the day, you use all your remaining spell slots to create goodberries that can be eaten the next day to heal you without using up spell slots to do so. A lot of healing from Aura of Vitality will also be wasted if you don't need its full effect, with Goodberry, you can use up as much as you need.

It's about long-term efficiency, not short-term power.

This, and goodberry can with lower slots

[SliceandDiceKid]

This, and goodberry can with lower slots

Right. I'm not sure why someone was concerned about goodberry scaling??? It starts out pretty freaking great especially with the life cleric nonsense. So it stays potent for a significant time, and it's not a burn slot/immediate application thing, so it serves greater utility. From what I've seen, a lot of DMs will let you administer goodberry like a healing potion to downed allies. I allow it at my table. Makes them pretty freaking good.

[RulesJD]

Um, given your intentions, why on earth wouldn't you go Trickster Cleric 2 for the Invoke Duplicity channel divinity? That's pretty much tailor made for this build idea.

[wunderkid]

Because trickster domain is a 2 level dip for a once a day shenanigan, if I could use the advantage stealth on myself then I'd totally build down that path. The life side will be useful at any point healing is needed, and gives me heavy armour which if I do get lucky and find mithril full plate will be nice and even then it's a tertiary element to the build rather than core the main part is being a huge skill monkey, pranking people (which is easier with invisible mage hand than with any cleric feature) and being like a shadow

[RulesJD]

Because trickster domain is a 2 level dip for a once a day shenanigan, if I could use the advantage stealth on myself then I'd totally build down that path. The life side will be useful at any point healing is needed, and gives me heavy armour which if I do get lucky and find mithril full plate will be nice and even then it's a tertiary element to the build rather than core the main part is being a huge skill monkey, pranking people (which is easier with invisible mage hand than with any cleric feature) and being like a shadow

It's short rest rechargable, so you can use the illusionary duplicate quite a lot. It gets you Disguise Self so it can free up another AT spell.

And presumably one of the Wizard spells you're going to pick from AT will be Find Familiar. With the Channel Divinity you can give your familiar advantage on its stealth checks to slink around nipping items, inserting them into pockets, making sounds, etc.

Sure life is way more useful for the goodberry healing shenanigans, but goodberries are only really useful for bringing up someone from 0hp anyway. One hit is going to take them back down either way. Aura of Vitality wont be as good either, but that's a long ways off for gameplay.

[wunderkid]

It's short rest rechargable, so you can use the illusionary duplicate quite a lot. It gets you Disguise Self so it can free up another AT spell.

And presumably one of the Wizard spells you're going to pick from AT will be Find Familiar. With the Channel Divinity you can give your familiar advantage on its stealth checks to slink around nipping items, inserting them into pockets, making sounds, etc.

Sure life is way more useful for the goodberry healing shenanigans, but goodberries are only really useful for bringing up someone from 0hp anyway. One hit is going to take them back down either way. Aura of Vitality wont be as good either, but that's a long ways off for gameplay.

True it's short rest rechargeable, but that's still only the once, and a two level dip hurts considerably more, with cunning action I can pop up and pop back into stealth without using any rest refreshing effects, so the clone isn't exactly vital and the DC for disguise self won't be amazing either.

Like I said the cleric dip is incredibly tertiary, one level is all I'd be willing to sacrifice and that's only because in my opinion the berries prepped the night before are a great way to make sure there aren't any wasted slots and are pretty groovy. And during a rest you could scoff a handful to top up nicely especially if you have a quiet day before a day of adventuring. I mean 10 per spell casting you could fill up a backpack.

And be Krillen. And scream 'senzu bean!' Every time someone eats them xD

[RulesJD]

True it's short rest rechargeable, but that's still only the once, and a two level dip hurts considerably more, with cunning action I can pop up and pop back into stealth without using any rest refreshing effects, so the clone isn't exactly vital and the DC for disguise self won't be amazing either.

Like I said the cleric dip is incredibly tertiary, one level is all I'd be willing to sacrifice and that's only because in my opinion the berries prepped the night before are a great way to make sure there aren't any wasted slots and are pretty groovy. And during a rest you could scoff a handful to top up nicely especially if you have a quiet day before a day of adventuring. I mean 10 per spell casting you could fill up a backpack.

And be Krillen. And scream 'senzu bean!' Every time someone eats them xD

Ahhhh so there's the confusion that most players have about stealthing, but frankly if your DM doesn't call you on it you're all good.

[wunderkid]

Ahhhh so there's the confusion that most players have about stealthing, but frankly if your DM doesn't call you on it you're all good.

I wouldn't call that confusion. Cunning action lets you hide as a bonus action. Failing to see anything confusing there or anything for the DM to call on?

[wunderkid]

Well I got to try this build at level 6 last night (went 3/3 rogue/bard). First loot drop got incredibly lucky and found the gloves of thievery. +15 to slight of hand was pretty damn groovy!

The combat side of things was a little lacklustre, not many spell slots yet and not very offensive damage wise, but dissonant whispers and suggestion helped a lot! I can see it getting better as I get more spell slots to sling about.

Tempted to pick up animat dead at level 9 using magical secrets. Being a poor man's necromancer but does give me a little more sustainable utility, what are your thoughts on that?