Scaling up Rise of the Runelords?

[Tanuki Tales]

Would there happen to be a blog/guide on how to scale up the encounters in Rise of the Runelords for larger parties? I've ended up with this being what I'm running for a new group I've put together and currently there are seven of them. All of them are gestalting, as well as using two traits (Pathfinder) and two flaws (3.5).

Current party make up is shaping up to be:

- Summoner//Paladin [Not Syntheist]
- Fighter//Sorcerer
- Oracle//Fighter (Polearm Master)
- Oracle//Paladin
- Monk fix//Unchained Rogue
- Gunslinger//Cleric
- Undecided, but will be building a "tank"


Thanks in advance.

[johnbragg]

So, wow. 7 PCs, using gestalt.

OK, this is not Runelords specific, but I'd suggest liberal use of "The orc is two orcs" from http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/.

Mechanically, you stick two monsters in the same space and body. So double the attacks and move actions etc, as long as the first monster has HP left. When the first monster gets killed, start the HP clock over and remove any status conditions.

As a fun variation, slap a +1CR template on either the first or second monster. So if the module says "ogre", you swap in "half-fiendish flying ogre with double moves and double attacks". When the party burns through the first ogre's hit points, he's too hurt to fly and he's basically a regular ogre with a fresh set of hit points.

Or, boost the second-stage monster. When the module says "ogre", you swap in (for the first stage) "ogre with double moves, double attacks". Then for the second stage, he says "Djazaham!" or however you want to butcher "Shazam" and he's a "Fire-infused ogre", doing an extra d6 fire damage on his attack.

For mook battles, start off by giving everybody max health. Module says "4 ogres, 29 hp each"? Make that 4 ogres, 4d12+11= 59 hp each. (I'd say double the numbers of ogres, but that bogs down the combat.)

[Sayt]

6 PC's is +1 to Average Party Level. 7 is probably 6.5. Gestalt is...tricky, but considering everyone BUT the monk is going Martial//Fullcaster (Summoner Counts), I'd probably kick the APL up to +2, maybe +3.

So... add more dudes to encounters. Run them smart, rejigger opponents to make their builds better.

If I recall, when you double the number of monsters, you increase the CR by 2, within reason. (I don't care if a flaming skeleton is CR1, 16 flaming skeletons is not CR9, but within one or maybe two doubles, the monsters are still relevant.)

[upho]

So, 7 gestalt PCs, all but one of them full casters... Unless they're very new players (in which case I wouldn't recommend gestalt), suck at teamwork or go for really mechanically weak options to intentionally nerf their builds, that is going to be one hell of a party. I currently run a (heavily modified) RotRL campaign with a strong T3 party (wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) primalist bloodrager, hexcrafter magus, goblin alchemist, half-giant warder/pally, witch/coven agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399287-Coven-Agent-a-T3-Witch-archetype-ish-PrC-with-ranged-maneuvers)) played by experienced players, and I can tell you that even if they're 2 levels behind the recommended progression and have less items than according to WBL, they destroy encounters run as written, without breaking a sweat.

Besides increasing the number (or "effective number") of enemies as earlier posters have said, I would really recommend that you change a lot of the more cramped maps as well, since the originals are going to be ridiculously overcrowded with such a large party and the increased number of opponents.

Also, don't be afraid of seriously boosting the BBEGs to ensure they actually feel supremely dangerous. Often it's enough to simply rebuild them with better options (especially feats and spells) and perhaps give them items of a net worth equal to that of a same level PC (which doesn't mean those items have to translate into valuable treasure), typically increasing their CR with about +1. However, try to not boost their single-target damage output, since that just promotes rocket-tag tendencies that are simply boring IMO, especially during the earlier levels. Instead, try to focus on stuff that make these "main villains" more durable and better controllers, buffers and debuffers. Many times this can make them much tougher opponents and more dangerous if the PCs don't work well together using sound tactics, but if they do, properly rebuilt such BBEGs are often also less likely to "accidentally" kill PCs than the lower CR originals.

And trust your own common sense way more than the CR guidelines - they'll often give you very false indication of how challenging a particular encounter/opponent actually is (by doing hilariously stupid things such as equalling a 10th level monk BBEG with a 10th level wizard BBEG).

Finally, be aware that you're probably going to have to work quite a bit if you don't want this to be a cake-walk for your players. And good luck!

[Tanuki Tales]

Just a little more insight into the party:


Summoner/Paladin - Just met this player for the first time and she doesn't strike me terribly as an optimizer or how to fully utilize a caster. She previously played mostly Elven Rangers and some underpowered homebrew from DnD wiki (from what she and others told me).
Fighter/Sorcerer - Usually played a Healbot for his group, didn't know about the tier system till I told him about it and didn't know why CoDzilla is a thing until I explained how to utilize a Cleric's toolset effectively. His level 1 spells were also Magic Missile, Burning Hands and Ear-piercing scream.
Oracle/Fighter - Seasoned GM and optimizer.
Oracle/Paladin - Still green to tabletop gaming, is playing a Gargoyle Druid in another group (non-gestalt).
Monkish/Unchained Rogue - I'll probably need to keep an eye on him, since he is frontloading his damage and shoring up his defenses, but he has a history of making poor, suicidal decisions.
Gunslinger/Cleric - Doesn't know how to optimize and is a lovable goofball; veteran of my groups and not one to worry about.
Undecided - He's building a tank, not worried too much about him


So, not terribly worried about them smashing through the harder stuff, but I want to shore up things so they don't walk through just because of sheer action economy.

[CGNefarious]

So I'm currently (well, that's kind of a lie) running a RotRL game with 4 gestalt characters with stupid high stats. If you're in my group (or any other RotRL group for that matter) please stop reading here. My party is as follows.

Oracle//Paladin - Nobody dies. Ever.
Warder//Psion - Hard to hit and hits fairly hard as well. Buffs himself
Summoner//?? - I think it's a cross between Cavalier and Warlord... or something. I can't quite remember what his secondary class is. He's playing a sort of dragoon and hits pretty hard, but is easier to hit than the Warder.
Witch//Investigator - Most annoying debuffer in the game.


What I do for battles depends on what they're fighting. If it's mooks I just double their hp and add +2 to all rolls and to AC and DCs. Helps keep them from being completely useless, though the heroes still don't normally struggle with them. For bosses I take the time to completely rebuild the character. I gestalt, give them the same ridiculous stats as the PC, and throw in an extra feat (the PCs got one as well). I usually pick a DSP class (because I'm into that) and a Paizo class that synergize well. I've had a Witch//Harbinger, a Bloodrager//Cleric, a Harbinger//Undead Barbarian (Lords of the Night), and I have some Inquisitor//Stalkers coming up. I also add some interesting things to spice up the battles. In the fight against Nualia I had Lamashtu use the energy of foes (and allies) fallen in battle to heal her. It made her last much longer in the fight, even though the party essentially shut her down once her backup was destroyed. I also made sure that the bugbear and Wizard (I forget their names) were in there to help Nualia fight the PCs.

Ripnugget was a Warlord//Mounted Barbarian who used Golden Lion maneuvers and teamwork feats to boost the strength and effectiveness of the many goblins in the room (I add a couple more) and he also had his old advisor (Druid//Stalker) backing him up with spells and damage. It turned out to be a hectic and enjoyable battle.

Erylium was probably the worst decision of mine. I made her a Witch//Harbinger, and with her invisibility, flight, DR, and fast healing, she was far too much for the party to handle. I wound up having to fudge the dice and play her poorly (attributed it to her insanity) so that she wouldn't TPK the party. The fight itself took around 4 hours, and it became a chore towards the end. So I just ended it. If I run RotRL again, I will make her a lot easier to handle.

The next session the party will be facing the Skinsaw Man. I have him as a Harbinger//Undead Barbarian. He uses unquiet grave maneuvers and will have a set of wights and shadows that come help him during the fight. If it still seems like the battle is too easy for the party, I plan on adding in some sanguine oozes (from the PC's own blood of course) to annoy the party more than anything. Make the fight seem more difficult and more dynamic than it is.


I'm still a fairly new DM, so I'm not good at judging what my party can handle. So I try to keep things in reserve in case things are too easy for them. At least on big or important battles. That way I can try and make sure my party is never bored. With you... you have seven people. All gestalt. You're going to have to go harder. Double the amount of enemies and use the same bonuses for mooks as I do. The thing about doubling actions that johnbragg suggested might be a good idea, especially for the bosses you want to seem tougher. Also remember that with seven people they'll be cramped up all day in tight places (which is a lot of the adventure). Fireballs. Spiked Pits. Entangle. AoE effects will be your friend. They have lots of healing, so they'll likely start every fight at full hp. Remember that casting a spell provokes attacks of opportunity. Step Up/Step Up and Strike if you want to annoy your players trying to get their spells off in battle.

Overall just make sure you play to the strengths of the enemies and (when applicable) the weaknesses of the PCs. It is not beyond plausibility that goblins would poison their weapons to do ability damage. PCs hate that kind of stuff.



I hope it goes well for you. Let us know how it went after you finish your first session. And good luck. You'll need it.

[Randomthom]

I'd think that with (effectively) 2 oracles and a cleric, they're pretty well-set to manage things like ability drain (provided they've got a healthy stash of diamond dust for restoration!)

7-person gestalt... jeez, good luck is all I can add!

[Psyren]

So, wow. 7 PCs, using gestalt.

OK, this is not Runelords specific, but I'd suggest liberal use of "The orc is two orcs" from http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/.

Mechanically, you stick two monsters in the same space and body. So double the attacks and move actions etc, as long as the first monster has HP left. When the first monster gets killed, start the HP clock over and remove any status conditions.

As a fun variation, slap a +1CR template on either the first or second monster. So if the module says "ogre", you swap in "half-fiendish flying ogre with double moves and double attacks". When the party burns through the first ogre's hit points, he's too hurt to fly and he's basically a regular ogre with a fresh set of hit points.

Or, boost the second-stage monster. When the module says "ogre", you swap in (for the first stage) "ogre with double moves, double attacks". Then for the second stage, he says "Djazaham!" or however you want to butcher "Shazam" and he's a "Fire-infused ogre", doing an extra d6 fire damage on his attack.

For mook battles, start off by giving everybody max health. Module says "4 ogres, 29 hp each"? Make that 4 ogres, 4d12+11= 59 hp each. (I'd say double the numbers of ogres, but that bogs down the combat.)

This is beautiful. I need to read this blog more.

[CGNefarious]

I'd think that with (effectively) 2 oracles and a cleric, they're pretty well-set to manage things like ability drain (provided they've got a healthy stash of diamond dust for restoration!)



Sure, but Restoration is a 4th level spell, so they'll be two books into the adventure path before they can cure it on their own. Until then they'll need potions, wands, or to make use of a local Cleric. Unless there's a spell I'm missing that can cure ability drain before then that I'm missing?

That said, constantly applying debuff to your party that you know they can't deal with is kind of a **** move, so don't do it every encounter. Or do. They've got four healers, so screw them.

[upho]

That said, constantly applying debuff to your party that you know they can't deal with is kind of a **** move, so don't do it every encounter.I agree, generally speaking. I try to keep such stuff out of earlier levels, instead prioritizing things like area control spells, short-duration debuffs like demoralization and melee control (superior reach with stuff like Dirty Trick, grab and trip can be very difficult to counter in tight spaces), and of course good enemy teamwork (the frontline grabber dumps the PC tank into the pit created by his caster friend).

And btw, I totally get why your party had problems with a boosted Erylium. I remember being a bit surprised when reading up on her. Even as written, she can be more dangerous than anything else the party faces in the first chapter, and she was the only enemy I actually didn't tweak at all. I think she's also a good example of how the CR system can be very misleading - if played decently, a small flying caster with decent spells and at-will invisibility is typically very challenging for low level parties, despite a relatively low CR. The same thing can be said about Lucretia later on btw. Just by using her spells somewhat tactically smart, she can be a true pain in the butt as written, and she's very difficult to pin down.

[Thealtruistorc]

Oh boy, one of my favorite adventures getting a brutal makeover. Let's see what I can contribute.

A big, nasty way to add a lot of danger while still keeping the fluff would be to have the hordes of monsters (most notably goblins and giants) fight like actual armies, have them set watches, use proper armor/shields, and utilize the terrain to their advantage. Giving them in levels in gish classes or perhaps even path of war classes would turn them into serious threats, enabling them (especially at low levels) to butcher PCs quickly and efficiently.

Goblinoids in the early adventures should be fighting like absolute madmen, using guerrilla tactics and damaging the environment in the most effective ways possible. Have them repurpose stolen carts as tanks, or raining alchemists fire from the sky as they are launched out of catapults on their way to kamikaze into some hapless player (please, please try this, I want to see how they react). Take some liberties with the goblin's intellect and have them play alchemists (using the archetypes from ARG and Monster Codex, of course), hucking grenades constantly and downing mutagens to increase their dexterity. If that isn't enough, throw oversized goblins and bugbears at the party, having them fight with reach weapons and AoOing anybody who tries to melee. Heck, go all out and introduce a goblin flamethrower (used in the technology guide).

For the giants later on, go to the opposite extreme, add in clerics who layer them with dozens of buff spells and stock their ranks with protective items. Have them use tactics like dropping from the sky onto players or wielding tower shields like freaking brick walls. Make them ride dragons and skewer people with poisoned lances, maybe having necromancers reanimate the remains of fallen players.

Finally, the dungeons should mean going all-out Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) on those poor saps. Load every room with traps and turn the standard mooks into a trained militia that would put the Sardakur to shame. If the PCs want to start a war with a runelord in a world where gestalt exists (all powerful villains should be gestalt as well), then they best be ready for hell.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Upping enemy numbers should be sufficient for most encounters in RotRL, but I would caution against upping the difficulty of the following encounters, based on actual play experience. These were the closest my party ever came to TPK (in some cases, they did TPK, and we had to do a 'retcon.')

Spoilers ahead:

Naulia - One of the final bosses from Chapter 1, depending on how thorough the party has been picking off her minions, she might be fighting alongside people like Tsuto. If she has backup from escaped enemies earlier in the chapter, you probably don't need to up the difficulty any more; she claimed the first PC kill in my game.
However, if all she has is her yeth hound buddy, perhaps consider giving her some more back-up dancers; another yeth hound or two, say, or perhaps some more goblins.

Malfeshnikor - A greater barghest is nothing to sneeze at, even for a party of gestalts. There's a chance they'll never find him anyway, but consider leaving him as-is.

Xanesha - The end boss to Chapter 2. She is SCARY. Even if your party is gestalt, and even if they outnumber her, she is still an incredible challenge to overcome. Treat that fight with utmost care.

Arkhryst - The white dragon at the opening of Chapter 5. I've seen him TPK twice. If the party has a bad habit of entering new areas unprepared, don't touch this bastard, he'll wipe the floor with them.

Karzoug - He's a friggin' level 20 wizard with god-tier gear. He destroyed my PCs without breaking a sweat. All I did was alter his tactics slightly, and it was enough to TPK; if you have to increase the difficulty here, up the age category of the blue dragon or give him a few more back-up dancers (maybe another rune giant).

[upho]

Upping enemy numbers should be sufficient for most encounters in RotRL, but I would caution against upping the difficulty of the following encounters, based on actual play experience. These were the closest my party ever came to TPK (in some cases, they did TPK, and we had to do a 'retcon.')

Spoilers ahead:

Naulia - One of the final bosses from Chapter 1, depending on how thorough the party has been picking off her minions, she might be fighting alongside people like Tsuto. If she has backup from escaped enemies earlier in the chapter, you probably don't need to up the difficulty any more; she claimed the first PC kill in my game.
However, if all she has is her yeth hound buddy, perhaps consider giving her some more back-up dancers; another yeth hound or two, say, or perhaps some more goblins.

Malfeshnikor - A greater barghest is nothing to sneeze at, even for a party of gestalts. There's a chance they'll never find him anyway, but consider leaving him as-is.

Xanesha - The end boss to Chapter 2. She is SCARY. Even if your party is gestalt, and even if they outnumber her, she is still an incredible challenge to overcome. Treat that fight with utmost care.

Arkhryst - The white dragon at the opening of Chapter 5. I've seen him TPK twice. If the party has a bad habit of entering new areas unprepared, don't touch this bastard, he'll wipe the floor with them.

Karzoug - He's a friggin' level 20 wizard with god-tier gear. He destroyed my PCs without breaking a sweat. All I did was alter his tactics slightly, and it was enough to TPK; if you have to increase the difficulty here, up the age category of the blue dragon or give him a few more back-up dancers (maybe another rune giant).
Interesting. Did you play the original or the anniversary edition?

Because (more spoilers):
Xanesha - I know that she changed places with her older sister in the anniversary edition, meaning Xanesha is a rogue/sorc and Lucretia is a sorc (and much more dangerous than Xanesha). IIRC, the "old" Xanesha in the clock tower (which was the "new" Lucretia now first encountered in Fort Rannick) was one of the encounters responsible for the most numerous TPKs in the old version, together with Black Magga and of course Karzoug (although the latter two remain unchanged from the original version AFAIK).

Nualia - Interestingly, I boosted her quite a bit and even gave her a couple of "free" thugs, and my party didn't have much problems with her. Although that's probably partially because the PCs in my group are pretty high-op and were good at wiping the floor with her most dangerous henchmen before they could escape first, but I wonder if she was also nerfed in the anniversary edition.

Arkhryst - I think you're absolutely right here, although I haven't played this encounter yet. If your party tends to favor "kick down the door, charge in and improvise"-tactics, this is most likely a very dangerous encounter. But OTOH, I don't think a more careful and prepared party should have much problems. Or did I miss something here?

Karzoug - I agree he's absolutely lethal as written, and even worse if you actually play him to the hilt of his capacity. And I would also seriously recommend boosting his team rather than him, and even consider nerfing him (if he can go all-in with things like time stop, prismatic wall and multiple quickened spells, he can basically end the encounter in the first round.

[Haladir]

Wow. You are really setting yourself up for a LOT of extra work!

I've run Rise of the Runelords twice. As-written, it's a wonderful AP. Keep in mind that it's designed for a 4-PC party, with the PCs built on 15 points and players of average experience and ability. You will need to beef it up a bit if you increase the number of PCs, the point-buy, or have veteran players.

Honestly, with a 7-PC party, I'd tone DOWN the character creation options from the baseline, rather than beefing them up.

I would STRONGLY recommend AGAINST Gestalt characters.

Gestalt is great for when you only have two or three players for an AP, allowing you to let your players cover all the bases without having to run multiple PCs. But with a seven-character party, running over-powered characters is really going to be a challenge.

For a 7-PC party, combats are going to take a LONG time. Make sure none of the PCs have too many options that take too much real-world time to run, or bring extra combatants onto the battlefield, or the players who aren't in the spotlight are going to get bored.

Off the top of my head, my recommendations would be...

1) No Gestalt; regular single-class PCs.
2) 15-point buy
3) Bar animal companion options and other "pet" classes, like the Summoner, Hunter, and Spiritualist.
4) Strongly recommend AGAINST spellcasters learning the summon monster spells. If you do, DO enforce the one-round casting time to discourage its use.
5) Keep the PCs about a level BELOW the recommended level for the section of the campaign. You're working with almost double the number of PCs, so the action economy is going to be very strongly in their favor.
6) Generally, double the number of mooks in most encounters.
7) Re-write any and all "boss" encounters such that the boss character has an ally that's pretty much on par with them. Also double the boss's hit points.
8) Give the boss characters the mythic monster ability "Dual Initiative."

Another problem with 7 PCs is that you're going to have to re-draw a bunch of the maps: there are a LOT of rooms that simply won't hold 7 PCs plus their enemies.

Good luck! You're going to need it!

[CockroachTeaParty]

Interesting. Did you play the original or the anniversary edition?

Because (more spoilers):
Xanesha - I know that she changed places with her older sister in the anniversary edition, meaning Xanesha is a rogue/sorc and Lucretia is a sorc (and much more dangerous than Xanesha). IIRC, the "old" Xanesha in the clock tower (which was the "new" Lucretia now first encountered in Fort Rannick) was one of the encounters responsible for the most numerous TPKs in the old version, together with Black Magga and of course Karzoug (although the latter two remain unchanged from the original version AFAIK).

Nualia - Interestingly, I boosted her quite a bit and even gave her a couple of "free" thugs, and my party didn't have much problems with her. Although that's probably partially because the PCs in my group are pretty high-op and were good at wiping the floor with her most dangerous henchmen before they could escape first, but I wonder if she was also nerfed in the anniversary edition.

Arkhryst - I think you're absolutely right here, although I haven't played this encounter yet. If your party tends to favor "kick down the door, charge in and improvise"-tactics, this is most likely a very dangerous encounter. But OTOH, I don't think a more careful and prepared party should have much problems. Or did I miss something here?

Karzoug - I agree he's absolutely lethal as written, and even worse if you actually play him to the hilt of his capacity. And I would also seriously recommend boosting his team rather than him, and even consider nerfing him (if he can go all-in with things like time stop, prismatic wall and multiple quickened spells, he can basically end the encounter in the first round.


I've run it twice in RL, all with the Anniversary edition.

Nualia was only a problem with the second party I ran. When she's fully buffed, she's pretty nasty. It doesn't help that there's a brutal trap just outside her boss room, and if it's triggered she'll be alerted and have plenty of time to get all her buffs up and running.

I don't know about the Xanesha / Lucretia swap, but I know that in the Anniversary edition Xanesha is downright brutal. Mainly, it's her access to things like Mirror Image that make her so difficult, since it's hard to overcome at the levels you're expected to be fighting her. Also, the terrain is really unfavorable, and she can escape with Feather Fall whenever she wants. Both times I ran it, Xanesha was much more difficult and deadly than Lucretia.

Arkhryst is bad news mainly because he's not telegraphed very strongly. If you fail a few Knowledge checks, it's unlikely the party knows they're walking into the hunting grounds of a powerful ancient dragon. Even IF they know, few parties suspect that Arkhryst will come actively looking for them, rather than waiting in his lair. Like I said, he's a TPK machine. An opening salvo of an invisible approach coupled with his breath weapon against a flat-footed, unbuffed party is a recipe for disaster.

[Tanuki Tales]

So, looks like we're rounding out to eight players....and I'm not going to accept any more after that. Also, since I didn't mention it earlier, we mix in 3.5 material.

Just wanted to shoot my idea for reworking the goblins for up to the fight with Tsuto in the Glassworks:

Use the elite array for non-boss monsters and use the same stat array as the PCs for important NPCs.
Double the HP
The Goblin Warriors will instead have a level in Generic Warrior from Unearthed Arcana, as well as the Frail and Vulnerable flaws. Their feats will be Shake it Off, Pack Attack and Precise Strike.
Goblin Commandos will be level 1 Cavaliers with the Order of Vengeance instead of Rangers.
Goblin Dogscalpers (Rangers), Goblin Longshankers (Rogues), Goblin Arsonists (Alchemists [Fire Bomber archetype]), and Horsechewers (Barbarian [Feral Gnasher]) will be peppered amongst groups of Warriors

[upho]

So, looks like we're rounding out to eight players....and I'm not going to accept any more after that. Also, since I didn't mention it earlier, we mix in 3.5 material.With eight players, I'd suggest you ask the "Seasoned GM and optimizer"-player to be your assistant in combat, having him/her responsible for general stuff such as keeping track of initiative orders and helping players with simple rules questions, so that you may focus more on keeping track of the opposition.

I think your ideas for boosting the gobbos look fine, especially since the changes won't make them any more complicated to play for you AFAICT. Though I'd also recommend you increase the number of gobbos and increase the sizes of the maps to allow for the larger number of combatants.

If you'd like to throw in a few more elite gobbos - for the Thistletop part when the party has gained a level or two, or if you'd like to throw in a mini-boss earlier - here are a few variants I made to match up with the party I DMed for (back then consisting of 4 PCs at 3rd level):

Goblin Pain-Peeler
Small humanoid (goblinoid) lore warden fighter 4

Initiative 4 Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Perception 3

DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (4 chain shirt, 4 dex, 1 small)
HP 30 (4d10+8)
Fort 6; Ref 5; Will 3

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk goblin pain-chain (main and off-hand) +8/+8 (1d4+4/x2) and entangling miss*
with Piranha Strike mwk goblin pain-chain +6/+6 (main: 1d4+8/x2 plus peel; off: 1d4+6/x2 plus peel) and entangling miss*
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Combat Reflexes (5 AoOs/round), peel (swift action if both main and off-hand attack deal deal damage using Piranha Strike: target must make a Will DC 14 or become shaken 1 round, (pain effect)), trip CMB +11/+11 or +9/+9 with Piranha Strike

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Bab +4; CMB +9 (+10 using pain-chain, +12 trip); CMD 20 (22 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Deadly Agility, EWP (goblin pain-chain)*, Piranha StrikeH, Improved TripH, TWF, Weapon FinesseH
Skills Acrobatics +6, Knowledge (Martial, Religion) +7, Perception +3, Stealth +14


Goblin Pain-Rider
Small humanoid (goblinoid) dervish defender hussar warder 4

Initiative 4 Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Perception 10
Aura Aegis, allies (not self) within 10 ft. gain +1 morale bonus to AC & Will

DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 18, flat-footed 17 (3 mwk spiked leather, 4 dex, 3 int, 1 small)
HP 26 (4d12+4)
Fort 5; Ref 5; Will 5
Defensive Abilities Defensive Focus (full-round, regains strikes and counters, threatened area +5 ft. for 1 round) Mounted Defender (immediate +17 Ride check vs. attack, success negates attack and allows AoO); Obsidian Sidestep (1/encounter, counter: immediate +10 Craft check replaces save and allows AoO)

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk goblin pain-chain (main and off-hand) +8/8 (1d4+4/x2) and entangling miss*
with Piranha Strike mwk goblin pain-chain +6/+6 (main: 1d4+8/x2 plus peel; off: 1d4+6/x2 plus peel) and entangling miss*
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Combat Reflexes (5 AoOs/round), peel (swift action if both main and off-hand attack deal deal damage using Piranha Strike: target must make a Will DC 14 or become shaken 1 round, (pain effect)), trip CMB +9/+9 or +7/+7 with Piranha Strike

Strikes (Primal Fury, Thrashing Dragon)
Raging Hunter Pounce (1/encounter until using Defensive Focus, strike: charge 100 ft. and pounce +10/+10)
Flick of the Wrist (1/encounter until using Defensive Focus, strike: full attack +12/+12 no save disarm if both hit)

STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 6
Bab +4; CMB +7 (using pain-chain +8); CMD 19
Feats Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Agility, EWP (goblin pain-chain)*, Mounted Combat, Piranha StrikeH, TWF, Weapon FinesseH
Skills Acrobatics +10, Craft (Paint) +10, Knowledge (Martial, Religion) +10, Ride +17, Perception +10, Stealth +18


Goblin Warhound
N medium animal companion (mount)

Initiative 2 Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Scent; Perception 7

DEFENSE
HP 30 (4d8+12)
AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (2 natural, 4 chain shirt, 2 dex, 1 aegis)
Fort 7; Ref 6; Will 5
4 free & 1 immediate +17 Ride check/turn vs. atk negates atk Mounted Warrior Stance

OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +8 (1d6+6/x2 plus trip CMB +8)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

Special Attacks
Acts in surprise round, flat-footed until acting. As long as its master is adjacent, if HP below 0:
conscious but staggered, loses 1 HP/round
+2 morale bonus on attack, saves, skill checks
dies if HP -20

STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Bab +3; CMB +7 (+8 using bite); CMD 19
Feats Alertness, Armor Proficiency (light), Iron Will, WF (Bite)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Perception +7, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +8 (incl. +4 racial in dim/dark)


*Goblin Pain-Chain These long sharp spiky "chains" are typically made from scrap metal pieces and sharp stones tied together with bits of rope and chain, and wielded as double weapons. The pain-chain is designed to snare "long-shanks" and to inflict the most pain possible, allowing a wielder who hits unprotected skin with both ends to jerk on the makeshift chain, which then acts as a vicious saw flaying the victim. Very difficult and unpredictable to use effectively in combat, only the most elite goblin warriors wield pain-chains, and even they are known to quite often entangle themselves in the weapon and hit the ground rather than their intended targets...

Exotic two-handed weapon, 1d4/1d4/x2 (small), double, reach, trip, grants "peel" special attack (see above), trip attempt does not provoke AoO when using Piranha Strike, entangling mess (always miss on natural 1 or 2, wielder gets tripped and is entangled for 1 round on a natural 1).

HHouserule: Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Piranha Strike, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Finesse are granted as bonus feats to all creatures with class levels (including the PCs) as soon as they meet prerequisites, and no combat feat has an "Int 13" prerequisite. (The lore warden fighter gets Combat Reflexes instead of Combat Expertise at 2nd level.)



As you can see, these gobbos have been allowed a few extras, including a special goblin weapon which is - in classic gobbo fashion - pretty risky to wield (with hilarious results on a natural 1). The "Pain-Rider" is also an initiator (using Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war) material), although without "Armiger's Mark" for simplicity, and rides an unusually dangerous animal companion mount. Still, their roles are primarily melee control rather than damage, so they're more tactically challenging (and annoying :smalltongue:) than standard lower level gobbos, but not necessarily that much more lethal.

And nobody expects to get tripped by a three feet tall green gremlin with an over-sized head and some spiky rope in his grubby little hands... :smallbiggrin: Hilariously demeaning for those that end up on their butts, and a good way to teach your players to respect the smaller races!

--------------------


/snip/
Hmm... True, I can see Nualia being challenging if her henchmen and the trap isn't properly dealt with first.

Xanesha / Lucretia - Funny how different the experience can be with different groups/parties. I actually ran both these pretty much as written (Xanesha actually got a boost) and my party was at a lower than recommended level, but they had very little problems with Xanesha, mostly because she was encountered alone, had no means of easy sure-fire escape from melee control, and because glitterdust is an almost too awesome defensive spell (and my players know this all too well) :smallannoyed:. Lucretia OTOH was supported by several ogres already engaging the party the first time in Fort Rannick, and was thus allowed to sneak up invisible on the party and could easily dominate party members/allies and then escape via dimension door once things got a bit too hot for her. And the second time the party faced her in the Kreeg stronghold, she was accompanied by Barl and his bodyguard (though this fight wasn't very hard for the party actually).

Arkhryst - Yeah, failing the Knowledge checks undoubtedly makes this encounter more dangerous, especially considering the minimal chance the party has of discovering the dragon to avoid a surprise fly-'n'-freeze opening from him. Not a very well designed encounter IMO.

Though I have to say the party I currently DM for would most likely be able to deal with this encounter already at 9th level. Even if everyone missed Knowledge and Perception checks as well as Ref saves against the breath, it's unlikely even one of them would die, much less all of them. Though it most probably would cost them quite a lot of healing resources afterwards and the dragon would very likely be able to flee back into his lair, and then really pester the party inside the Runeforge... (But yes, they're a very strong party and probably not that valid for these kinds of comparisons anyhow. For example, they took out Black Magga (who had boosted HP) at 8th level, and later during the same level a CR 14 old black dragon in a (difficult) straight up fight where neither side had much time to prepare, and this just minutes after they'd been through another pretty tough encounter, and without anyone dying. I was relieved both times, as after the rather nightmarish opening round of both these fights, I was near certain I had gone too far and would accidentally cause a TPK. :smallredface:)

[Tanuki Tales]

Is Path of War material on the SRD?

And I think Tsuto is important enough a foe to gestalt, but don't know if I want him to have PC stat arrays.

I'm thinking for Tsuto:

Replace Monk levels with Brawler levels; he doesn't really strike me as someone who has that kind of inner discipline associated with being a Monk.
Replace Rogue levels with Unchained Rogue levels.


Now, as far as I am in the module (haven't got a chance to read past the Glassworks), even though they won't fight her, I'm thinking of rebuilding Shalelu as such:

Gestalt, PC stat array, but regular HP
Replace Elven Magic with Woodcraft
Replace levels in Fighter with levels in Lore Warden Fighter
Replace levels in Ranger with levels in Guide Ranger

[CGNefarious]

Most of Path of War is indeed on the SRD (it has its own section, much like Psionics), though I don't think any of Path of War: Expanded is.


I made Tsuto gestalt (Monk//Stalker) and gave him PC stats. He was their first real fight, and I wanted them to see the shift between easy goblin mooks and real enemies. He turned out to be fairly glass cannon. Heard them approaching, hid behind the door, and unleashed on them when they entered. Knock one of them to the ground in the surprise round, but the party ganged up on him and took him out pretty easily. I hadn't really buffed up the goblins at that point, so they were nothing to the party.

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FSPYn--ucVFjjwaDy6sTNLldYpWRFzjWsPITMQaALAY/edit?usp=sharing) is a copy of his sheet if you're interested. As you can tell, my PCs' stats were stupid high.

[Tanuki Tales]

Good point.

18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10 spread for Tsuto it is.

Now, something I wanted to touch on earlier...

There are bosses who...as written, would curbstomp even this party? In a pre-made module? :smalleek:

[CGNefarious]

Curbstomp a 7 man party of gestalt characters? I don't think so. Maybe if you play Erylium really tactically she could give them a really hard time. But I don't think she would curbstomp them as written. Besides, then can always run.

I think the hardest part for you is dealing with seven players. That means when going against a single boss, they get seven standard actions vs the bosses one. And that's assuming they don't use stuns. So I wouldn't worry about any encounter being too hard for them. If anything, I think things would go pretty easily.

[upho]

Is Path of War material on the SRD?
Most of Path of War is indeed on the SRD (it has its own section, much like Psionics), though I don't think any of Path of War: Expanded is.Just to clarify: Path of War is (excellent) 3rd party material made by Dreamscarred Press (http://dreamscarred.com/), not Paizo, and is thus not in the official "Pathfinder Reference Document" (PRD) (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/). All PoW content is however available for free on the d20pfsrd.com site which is run by a very nice private person (not affiliated with Paizo), along with plenty of other 3rd party material also made under the Open Gaming License (OGL), such as Psionics (also made by Dreamscarred Press). Path of War: Expanded (http://dreamscarred.com/product/path-of-war-expanded/) was very recently released, so AFAIK it's too early to say whether the content will also be available for free on d20pfsrd.com, although I personally think it's likely it will be a month or so after the print version has been begun shipping (meaning sometime around the end of May/beginning of June).


There are bosses who...as written, would curbstomp even this party? In a pre-made module? :smalleek:That's extremely unlikely, and although I recommend you to be extra careful when/if boosting the combatants mentioned in previous posts, I think the problem is going to be the opposite in your case.


And I think Tsuto is important enough a foe to gestalt, but don't know if I want him to have PC stat arrays.

I'm thinking for Tsuto:

Replace Monk levels with Brawler levels; he doesn't really strike me as someone who has that kind of inner discipline associated with being a Monk.
Replace Rogue levels with Unchained Rogue levels.Like CGNefarious, I also made Tsuto a stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker), but I gestalted him with a sacred fist warpriest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo---warpriest-archetypes/sacred-fist) instead. As a stalker he'll be a bit more complicated to play, but also a lot more flexible and interesting in combat, especially if choosing his counters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/systems-and-use) and any other defensive buffs carefully to allow him to negate/reduce attacks (such as the Combat Precognition Stalker Art).

In your case, I also think Tsuto and most of the other bosses and mini-bosses are perfect candidates for the previously mentioned "two-in-one" tweak (http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/), granting them the additional actions (and hp) they'll be in desperate need of to present a challenge to your very large party.

For example, Nualia would be excellent - in terms of mechanics as well as flavor - as one half cleric 4/ordained defender (uses Wis instead of Int for warder class features) zweihander sentinel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/zweihander-sentinel-warder-archetype) warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) 1/battle templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar) 2 and one half fearmonger (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Antipaladin%20Fear monger) antipaladin 5/lore warden fighter 2. Combine those classes with the Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) and Practiced Initiator traits (Practiced Initiator works as Magical Knack but affects Initiator Level), giving Nualia a CL as well as an IL of 7 and access to 3rd level spells and 4th level maneuvers. I suggest making her fiendish boon a fiendish dire hyena (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/hyena/hyena-dire) even though it's not on the summon monster III list, as it fits with the hyena-headed deity Nualia worships and is reasonably mechanically equivalent to the choices on the spell's alternative list.

Add some fear-inducing prepared spells and readied maneuvers from the Black Seraph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers) discipline, along with the very fitting combo consisting of Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final), Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) and the Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation) and Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) damnation feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats), and she'll be more durable (thanks to the fearmonger archetype and possibly Black Seraph manuevers) as well as scary enough to make the PCs pee their pants and run away in panic crying for mommy... :smallbiggrin: Which is great, since it makes her a serious challenge and allows her to basically take PCs out of the fight for at least a few rounds without having to kill them. Complement with a combat maneuver feat like Improved Trip for additional melee control.