Best Place to Get Newbies to Start OOTS?

[Ruck]

So, I'm a huge Order of the Stick fan (obviously, or I wouldn't be posting here), and not just for the D&D aspects: I think the Giant has done a terrific job of characterization, plotting, and (especially and importantly) structure, and this has resulted in a rich and satisfying story that transcends D&D and the fantasy genre.

OK, OK, accolades aside: Because it transcends D&D and the fantasy genre to be a really good story, period, I want to get more of my friends to read it. Of course, they are mostly not familiar with D&D, and in some cases not at all, so this creates a bit of a barrier for entry to them. This is particularly true with the early strips, which are of course mostly D&D gag-based.

My own discovery of OOTS was entirely accidental-- I followed a link from TVTropes (I think on the "Shell Game" page) to #428 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html); I liked it enough to read the next one, and the next one, and the next one... and after 50 strips or so, I started thinking "Maybe I should read this from the beginning." It did get me to read the whole thing, but I'm not sure I can recommend that as the best way to

My question for this thread is: Is there any particular place in the story you feel is best for people totally unfamiliar with D&D to jump in the story, to improve the chances of retaining them as a reader? I loaned one of my friends my copy of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, so this is a sort of first test to see how that goes. I'm hoping the book-only intro makes it a little easier to get into.

So far my best ideas for where to recommend a newbie to start have been:


#43 - OOTS meets the Linear Guild, kicking off the first real serialized plot of the strip.
#93 - This is about the time Rich has said he decided what the main plot would be. This gives us a couple of funny strips with the OOTS before introducing the villains and Dorukan's Gate.
#260 - The start of the trial chapter in NCFTPB; this starts shortly before Shojo explains the backstory and the stakes involved, and as a bonus this strip also has a recap of the events of the book to date.

Anyone else have any suggestions or experiences they want to share? I want to share OOTS with people, but some of the specifics have been daunting to them. Even my wife, who is open to fantasy stories (she loves Game of Thrones / ASOIAF, and I think this is better) is completely baffled by the D&D elements and has had a hard time getting into the strip as a result. I'm curious if anyone else has tried to introduce OOTS to non-D&D players, and if so, how they've found success.

[Quartz]

#260 - The start of the trial chapter in NCFTPB; this starts shortly before Shojo explains the backstory and the stakes involved, and as a bonus this strip also has a recap of the events of the book to date.

How about their arrest in #199/200? This gives an opportunity to set the humour level before #260.

[KillingAScarab]

So far my best ideas for where to recommend a newbie to start have been:


#43 - OOTS meets the Linear Guild, kicking off the first real serialized plot of the strip.
#93 - This is about the time Rich has said he decided what the main plot would be. This gives us a couple of funny strips with the OOTS before introducing the villains and Dorukan's Gate.
#260 - The start of the trial chapter in NCFTPB; this starts shortly before Shojo explains the backstory and the stakes involved, and as a bonus this strip also has a recap of the events of the book to date.

To the last point on the list, if you want to start with some understanding of the Snarl and the history of the world, why not Start of Darkness? It is a self-contained story, unlike On the Origins of PCs. Sure, it gives you the villains first, and Rich's introduction suggests reading it after No Cure for the Paladin Blues because it spoils things, but if you have the book already lying around and any of them are more inclined towards books, I don't see much reason not to start there. Tell them ahead of time all of the "X years ago" are relative to the first strip of the comic, it's a prequel. They won't know who Miko Miyazaki is, but they can just skip her preface. About the worst part of it is the sudden appearance of Roy and Eugene.

[NerdyKris]

Start of Darkness assumes you know a lot about the characters and the in comic Crayons of Time story. It sort of defeats the whole reveal in strip by Shojo. Origin of PCs is a series of vignettes, and really doesn't show off the later strips, just the joke a day stuff that OP's trying to skip.

I'd go with the trial or right after it, possibly the Oracle. It plants enough seeds to power through the rather cheesy and unrelated gag a day strips that made up the beginning of the comic. At the very least start with the introduction of the Linear Guild. Maybe a catching up compilation consisting of Eugene's visit, the Linear Guild, Xykon fight, the black dragon, Miko's appearance, and then the trial.

[Mayrax]

I say start at 0001! Like Star Wars, it's best to start at the first episode released.

Mayrax

[littlebum2002]

I say start at 0001! Like Star Wars, it's best to start at the first episode released.

Mayrax

I disagree. When I re-read the comic I find the beginning strips painful to read. And I tried re-watching The Phantom Menace the other day and I only got 20 minutes in before I was Jar Jar-ed out and literally had to turn it off. If that was the first thing I ever watched Star Wars related I would be finished with the series forever at that point.


How about their arrest in #199/200? This gives an opportunity to set the humour level before #260.
Agree 100%. Everything prior to this point can be summed up thustly:


The Order of the Stick were in a dungeon to fulfill Roy's oath to kill a lich sorceror named Xykon. In this dungeon they were attacked by Elan's evil twin brother (yes he had a goatee) and his evil adventuring gang, the Linear Guild; luckily our heroes prevailed. Xykon was defeated (or was he?) but Elan, in a moment of sheer stupidity, blew up the dungeon and the mysterious gate contained within.

Oh, and Vaarsuvious killed a black dragon which will almost certainly not have any impact on the future plot


There, you've summed up 198 strips and saved them from dozens of corny D&D jokes.


EDIT: Actually, I think 198 is a GREAT place to start. I'm reading the comic now starting from there, and within 5 strips they basically do a recap of the entire strip so far, just like I did. It's almost as if the comic was written specifically to be able to start from that point.

Roy's crown is used to recap Xykon
The evil deeds Miko has learned about are used to recap the Linear Guild
The treasure is used to recap the black dragon.

Plus, you IMMEDIATELY learn their personalities up until that point: That Durkon is religious, Elan is stupid, Belkar is evil, Haley is greedy, Roy is guided too much by his Trouser Titan, and V is intellectually curious, loquacious and kind of an ass.

[Sir_Norbert]

Totally agreed. Something like the trial sequence only works because we already know and care about the characters through having followed their adventures. Sure, the joke in #1 isn't great if you don't know D&D beforehand, but if you were recommended a book by a friend and you had enough time to give it a try, would you give up because you didn't like the first page?

It's not as though all the early jokes depend on D&D. #6 is a great example, and that's the strip that got me hooked when I decided to give OotS a try. But #6 does kind of depend on knowing that the characters are adventurers in a dungeon, which is established if you've read the previous strips.

Caveat: I haven't read the book version of Dungeon Crawling Fools, so I don't know how the book-only intro compares to the experience of starting from #1.

[Pyrous]

I disagree. When I re-read the comic I find the beginning strips painful to read. And I tried re-watching The Phantom Menace the other day and I only got 20 minutes in before I was Jar Jar-ed out and literally had to turn it off. If that was the first thing I ever watched Star Wars related I would be finished with the series forever at that point.

I say start on 199. Everything they need to know up until that point can be summed up pretty easily:


The Order of the Stick were in a dungeon to fulfill Roy's oath to kill a lich sorceror named Xykon. In this dungeon they were attacked by Elan's evil twin brother (yes he had a goatee) and his evil adventuring gang, the Linear Guild; luckily our heroes prevailed. Xykon was defeated (or was he?) but Elan, in a moment of sheer stupidity, blew up the dungeon and the mysterious gate contained within.

Oh, and Vaarsuvious killed a black dragon which will almost certainly not have any impact on the future plot



There, you've summed up 198 strips and saved them from dozens of corny D&D jokes.

To be fair, The Phantom Menace was not the first episode released.

I agree with everything else, though.

[NerdyKris]

Sure, the joke in #1 isn't great if you don't know D&D beforehand, but if you were recommended a book by a friend and you had enough time to give it a try, would you give up because you didn't like the first page?


No, I'd give up because I didn't like the first 42 pages which are nothing but rule jokes and puns with no real plot to speak of. Which is what happened, repeatedly, until I saw the Oracle strips and wanted to see how they got there.

The issue isn't the first page, it's that what the strip became after #200 is a very different type of comic from what it was in the first hundred strips. The problem is all the little things spread out among those strips that later became important plot points. But in terms of storytelling ability, it's basically the pilot episode of full series. Important information, but often jarring with the difference in tone to the rest of the series. But unlike a pilot episode, it takes a lot longer to get through.

[Porthos]

If one cares about characterization in the slightest, then start with strip #1.

What's that? Start with the jokes over plot strips? Are you mad, Porthos?

Well, yes. But in this case there is a method.

IMO, the characters that we know and love were mainly established though those early jokes. The base characterization which character development flowed from comes from those very early strips.

If one cares more for plot/story and is somehow embarrassed by jokes, start with strip #43, with the introduction of the Linear Guild. Problem is, even by then what makes that plot work is caring about the characters.

So, maybe strip #13, which is accurately named "Plot Ahoy" as that introduces the bare bones of the plot while still giving time to get to know the characters in the next 30 strips. This bypasses most of the gag-a-day early strips while still having good jokes ahead. With perhaps one notable exception.

The earlier the better is my take. Sure folks can and do jump in at any time. I jumped in soon after they were done with the first confrontation with Xykon. But IMO a good place to start is one of the three strips I mentioned above.

tl;dr: I think some of us as a community are too embarrassed over the early strips. Don't be. They were crucial to what made OotS today, and IMO they still hold up. At the very least they help inform and establish the characters and set them up for the development that occurs later on.

[Markozeta]

I'd say that this is a great place to start for most people - but it depends on your reader. If they're into casual stuff, then it's good - but if they're the kind of person that loves details you can hit every major plotline by starting at 134 - where Roy is trying to get his sword fixed. That explains the club - the dragon adventure and the bandit camp is a great little story as well. The only spoiler that's really unexplained is Eugene - but he explains himself pretty quickly in the strip right after.

Hell, the strip is called Craft(Plotline) for a reason.

[littlebum2002]

If one cares about characterization in the slightest, then start with strip #1.

What's that? Start with the jokes over plot strips? Are you mad, Porthos?

Well, yes. But in this case there is a method.

IMO, the characters that we know and love were mainly established though those early jokes. The base characterization which character development flowed from comes from those very early strips.

If one cares more for plot/story and is somehow embarrassed by jokes, start with strip #43, with the introduction of the Linear Guild. Problem is, even by then what makes that plot work is caring about the characters.

So, maybe strip #13, which is accurately named "Plot Ahoy" as that introduces the bare bones of the plot while still giving time to get to know the characters in the next 40 strips. This bypasses most of the gag-a-day early strips while still having good jokes ahead. With perhaps one notable exception.

The earlier the better is my take. Sure folks can and do jump in at any time. I jumped in early in the first hundred. But IMO a good place to start is one of the three strips I mentioned above.

tl;dr: I think some of us as a community are too embarrassed over the early strips. Don't be. They were crucial to what made OotS today, and IMO they still hold up. At the very least they help inform and establish the characters and set them up for the development that occurs later on.


I agree that these early strips are important to the plot, but the problem is a new reader doesn't care for the characters yet and will quickly get bored of the bad drawing and bad gags.

My suggestion to start at #199 is based on the assumption that the reader will eventually read the first #198 strips once they get into the comic.

The question being asked isn't "what strips are OK to skip", it's "what strips are actually interesting enough to engage a new reader". And that answer certainly isn't starting at #1.

[Porthos]

I agree that these early strips are important to the plot, but the problem is a new reader doesn't care for the characters yet and will quickly get bored of the bad drawing and bad gags.

This is an assertion, and a somewhat dubious one, IMO. Some folks (like yourself) have said they are put off by those early strips. Others have said they were great. I don't think we really have much empirical evidence that says those early strips are "bad" for newbies. I have seen plenty of ancedotal evidence in both directions, however.

[littlebum2002]

This is an assertion, and a somewhat dubious one, IMO. Some folks (like yourself) have said they are put off by those early strips. Others have said they were great. I don't think we really have much empirical evidence that says those early strips are "bad" for newbies. I have seen plenty of ancedotal evidence in both directions, however.

I understand that was my opinion. I probably should have written that better, my main point was that your assertion:


IMO, the characters that we know and love were mainly established though those early jokes. The base characterization which character development flowed from comes from those very early strips.
was in error because a new reader can't "know and love" characters he knows nothing about.

Now, back to opinion time, Rich has already stated that the earlier strips were written for a different audience than modern strips. There are going to be 4 groups of people in regards to OOTS:

1) people who like the entire strip
2) people who may like the jokes but not the plot, who will like earlier strips more
3) people who like the plot but not the d&d jokes, who will like modern strips more
4) people who don't like the comic at all

If you start at #1, you'll cater to people in 1) and 2), but people who are in 2) aren't really of interest because they might not like the modern strip anyway. If you start at a later strip you'll still hook the 1) people but the 3) people might enjoy it more than if they started from the beginning and stick with it.

So you really have nothing to lose by starting later, and everything to gain. And once the person gets into the comic and starts to "know and love" the characters, then they can read the earlier strips.

[hroþila]

Most D&D jokes still work as generic RPG jokes (tabletop or video). I thought the first strips were hilarious when I first read them, and all my knowledge of D&D came from Neverwinter Nights and Shadow Over Mystara.

I wouldn't recommend starting from the beginning to anyone who wasn't at least into gaming, though.

[NerdyKris]

It's not an issue of being "embarrassed" by the strips. It's that they are a much different type of comic and aren't indicative of what later strips show. And besides myself, I've also had two other people not able to get through those early strips to the point where the plot actually starts. It would be like introducing someone to the Simpsons by starting with the Tracy Ulman shorts. Yes, they set up the characters, but there's not much there and they're a pain to sit through. Or someone who wants to watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine first going through all of Next Generation. All of it. Even the bad episodes, despite the two shows having different themes. There's a lot of strips, and a lot of people will drop out saying "Well, I don't really like this comic" without getting to the point where Rich said "If this comic is going to last, I have to start focusing on a story". Starting them at one of the earliest story hooks in the comic that will grab their interest is going to get them hooked better than "Here's some very old jokes about an obsolete game system."

[Porthos]

Now, back to opinion time, Rich has already stated that the earlier strips were written for a different audience than modern strips.

As someone who is in the "likes the entire strip" camp, consider my posts from a person who gets somewhat grumpy over this topic who then gets slightly irked at the way the first 200, 300, and even occasionally first 400(!!)* strips get casually dismissed around here.

Call it my way of giving a slight pushback to a groupthink I see getting established. :smallwink:

===

* I mean, I can understand if not agree with the arguments about skipping the first hundred. But skipping the first four hundred? THAT'S friggin' madness! :smallyuk:

...

Little wonder some folks were complaining about the 'returing-to-an-earlier-vibe' of the beginning of Blood Runs in the Family. :smallamused::smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Alternatively Origin of PCs might be a good starting point.

I agree that first strips should not be skipped though.

[Porthos]

It's not an issue of being "embarrassed" by the strips. It's that they are a much different type of comic and aren't indicative of what later strips show. And besides myself, I've also had two other people not able to get through those early strips to the point where the plot actually starts. It would be like introducing someone to the Simpsons by starting with the Tracy Ulman shorts. Yes, they set up the characters, but there's not much there and they're a pain to sit through. Or someone who wants to watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine first going through all of Next Generation. All of it. Even the bad episodes, despite the two shows having different themes. There's a lot of strips, and a lot of people will drop out saying "Well, I don't really like this comic" without getting to the point where Rich said "If this comic is going to last, I have to start focusing on a story". Starting them at one of the earliest story hooks in the comic that will grab their interest is going to get them hooked better than "Here's some very old jokes about an obsolete game system."

The problem is, where does the "new" OotS start and when does the "old" OotS stop. It was a constant evolution (and much like evolution, one that went fairly slowly and in fits and starts). Even if I agreed with your analogies, and I don't since I think they are too extreme, there is the task of finding the 'dividing line'.

I think the main problem here is that because OotS appeals to so many different types of people, even to this day, arguing which strip to start with is a fools errand at best. Why? Because people are different.

Duh, I hear you say. But it's a good point and one we should remember. hroþila talked about how the early strips are accessible to anyone with any sort of background in gaming. And that's a comment I have heard endlessly all over the net. You are commenting about how different those strips are from the ones today and thus saying that people who would like the current style might not like the earlier.

Thus which strip to start with? It depends on what type of things the person likes. If they appreciate (gaming) humor, start them early. If they appreciate characterization, start them a bit later. If they appreciate plot, perhaps later still. If they hate gaming humor, later still. If they only like complex plotting and constant serialization with little "filler" (gawd, do I hate that word), later yet.

In other words THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER. I gave three in an earlier post on purpose. It really does depend on the type of person one is introducing to OotS.

Perhaps all I iz saying is, don't be too reluctant to show the early strips, if that's the type of thing they might like.

===

For the record, my DS9 comparison would be the one that says: don't ignore the first two/three seasons of DS9. Yes they're different in style, plot, and temperament to what comes out in seasons three/four and beyond, but they're just as good, IMO. And those later seasons pack so much more of a punch when you see what they built on from the first two seasons.

But that, I think, is another thread. And one I don't particularly feel like starting/contributing to. :smalltongue:

[littlebum2002]

As someone who is in the "likes the entire strip" camp, consider my posts from a person who gets somewhat grumpy over this topic who then gets slightly irked at the way the first 200, 300, and even occasionally first 400(!!)* strips get casually dismissed around here.

Call it my way of giving a slight pushback to a groupthink I see getting established. :smallwink:

===

* I mean, I can understand if not agree with the arguments about skipping the first hundred. But skipping the first four hundred? THAT'S friggin' madness! :smallyuk:

...

Little wonder some folks were complaining about the 'returing-to-an-earlier-vibe' of the beginning of Blood Runs in the Family. :smallamused::smalltongue:

I've never heard 400, that's nuts.

Personally, when I re-read the strip I start when they meet Nale. SO I like "most" of the old strips, but the very first ones are just to obscure for me. After all, OOTS introduced me to D&D, not the other way around, so I guess they're not that relevant to me.

[Cizak]

Option A) #1

Option B) #2

Option C) #13, skip to #15, skip to #43

[Ruck]

I agree that these early strips are important to the plot, but the problem is a new reader doesn't care for the characters yet and will quickly get bored of the bad drawing and bad gags.

My suggestion to start at #199 is based on the assumption that the reader will eventually read the first #198 strips once they get into the comic.

The question being asked isn't "what strips are OK to skip", it's "what strips are actually interesting enough to engage a new reader". And that answer certainly isn't starting at #1.

Thank you, both for the recommendation and because I think you got to the heart of what I was asking. I like the early strips fine, but I'm trying to get people who like good storytelling, marked by good characterization, plotting, and structure, but couldn't care less about tabletop gaming, into the series. And I've showed a couple of them early strips before, and their response was basically "I don't get it."

I'm not expecting them to skip the early strips altogether. But I want to get them hooked on the story first, then worry about making sure they read the complete work.


This is an assertion, and a somewhat dubious one, IMO. Some folks (like yourself) have said they are put off by those early strips. Others have said they were great. I don't think we really have much empirical evidence that says those early strips are "bad" for newbies. I have seen plenty of ancedotal evidence in both directions, however.

It's not a dubious assertion, because I'm asking about people for whom that has, in some cases, already proven true, like NerdyKris describes.

Remember, it's not just that the strip is a gag a day in the early going; it's that the gags won't make any sense to someone who has no familiarity with D&D, let alone someone who has no interest in it.

As per littlebum's post after yours, I'm addressing people who fall into group 3.

[martianmister]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html

[An Enemy Spy]

You're all wrong. The only real way to read OOTS is to start at #1, then #1033, then #2, then #1032, and so on.

[dps]

I say start at 0001! Like Star Wars, it's best to start at the first episode released.

I disagree. When I re-read the comic I find the beginning strips painful to read. And I tried re-watching The Phantom Menace the other day and I only got 20 minutes in before I was Jar Jar-ed out and literally had to turn it off. If that was the first thing I ever watched Star Wars related I would be finished with the series forever at that point.



The Phantom Menace wasn't the first episode released.

[theasl]

I'd had no exposure to D&D and other pen and paper RPGs before I found this strip, though I did have a general understanding of typical RPG mechanics from computer games. I started at #1, and even though I didn't understand many of the specific D&D jokes (and I still probably won't get some of them), I found it amusing enough to keep reading. I still go back and read them, too, now that I'm more familiar with the system, to see if I've missed anything.

So if the people you're recommending are like me, who know how games work in general, or who are interested in learning how games work, starting from the beginning is not a bad idea.

[Prowl]

Seems a little silly to start a story anywhere but the first page. Even the first strips which are relatively primitive contain information which is referenced much later in the story. If a new reader misses it, they're missing out on some of the fullness of the tale.

As early as strip #2 you can already see relationships between the main characters being developed and defined. Strip #3 starts the lime green boots of speed joke which pops up at least a couple of times much later in the story.

By strip #10 we already have references to Haley's dad and the belt of gender changing - two Chekov's guns which are fired later.

If one starts as late as strip #40, at least a dozen different story elements that play out up to hundreds of strips later (and even some that have yet to fully play out) would be missed.

Not to mention, one would completely lose appreciation for the massive improvement in art quality over time without seeing the earlier, less finely drawn material.

For better or for worse, the place to start is at strip #1; that's where the story begins.

[Prowl]

Regarding comparisons to "The Phantom Menace"... that was a really horrible movie, actually. If that had been the first Star Wars released, there probably wouldn't have been a second one. The ways in which that movie was fail are almost too many to count.

If you want a hilarious accounting of just how bad that movie was check out Mr. Plinkett's review on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&list=PLF34EBB1D68064251

[Ruck]

Seems a little silly to start a story anywhere but the first page. Even the first strips which are relatively primitive contain information which is referenced much later in the story. If a new reader misses it, they're missing out on some of the fullness of the tale.
...

I'm not expecting them to skip the early strips altogether. But I want to get them hooked on the story first, then worry about making sure they read the complete work.

Again: I am not asking which strips can be skipped, I am asking where the best place to start is that will successfully get someone who doesn't know or care to know anything about D&D hooked on the strip.

[Vinyadan]

Start with strip 53. Or with strip 101.
Yes, it's a weird idea. Why that?
The first jokes are how the characters were formed and (supposedly) grew on us.
The first arc was about the LG, who happens to be made up to be a mirror of the characters. If you don't care about the characters, you won't care about the LG.
Then there is the battle against Xykon. But why should I care, if I don't care about the characters, since I never saw them before? I see the same problem with starting with the arrest.

Instead, I suggest a start in medias res. Strip 53 changes the scene and shows pretty well what the character of the characters is. The rest of the setting is pretty clear. Strip 101 starts with characters in need, and it's rather clear: a green guy who looks like a LotR orc is being interrogated. The party has two objectives: killing Xykon and rejoining with Haley.
140 may also work.

Anyway, if I made it through the comic in spite of the early jokes (as I didn't know the rules back then), then I think they are understandable, if not literally, at least in spirit. Otherwise, we still have jokes about Vance and spell levels and so on.

[Mister Loorg]

I just ran through strips 1-43 and found that only about 6 of them actually require extensive knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons to get the jokes.

So I say that you should start at the beginning.

[Ruck]

Thanks for all the answers. The more I think about it, the more I think is possible to start from the beginning, even if you don't understand everything right away. And while I'm more inclined to recommend that now, what most concerns me remains making sure the people I want to read it get interested enough to keep reading it, regardless of how they get there.

[Jasdoif]

I loaned one of my friends my copy of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, so this is a sort of first test to see how that goes. I'm hoping the book-only intro makes it a little easier to get into.The book-only intro in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools would be my recommendation. It establishes that the "laws of GAMING" hold sway because the story is set in "the world of a popular fantasy roleplaying game", outlines the kind of things that can happen despite making no apparent sense (Elan's Diplomacy check), describes the characters briefly, and has a heavy dose of the snark-through-the-fourth-wall humor that's one of the more easily identifiable traits of Order of the Stick.

It does a fair job of setting the expectation that there may be references to game rules, but that the minutiae of them don't need to be understood (take #3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html): it's clear what failing a Spot check means, without getting into skill modifiers and DCs). If you think starting at the first strip could be a problem, the book-only intro is going to be your best bet; if only because it's likely someone's going to go back to the first strip at some point.

(For the record, my first exposure to OotS was a friend linking me to 298 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html), a decision I have to believe was based on an assumption that I'd already heard of OotS. So naturally I jumped to the first strip 'cause I had no idea what was supposed to be going on :smalltongue: Admittedly I did know about D&D 3.5 at that point....)

[Murk]

I'm for starting at the beginning, and if you have the books, the book beginnings. I know nothing about D&D and didn't particularly like the jokes, but the entire scenery (or actually the lack of it) drew me in quickly.

I mainly think so because, while we all very much appreciate the plot of the story, it isn't that great at first glance. If you start with the plot exposition, that boils down to: We have six cliché heroes who have to go on a standard quest to five artefacts to save the world. Woohoo.

Drama, character arcs and climaxes only work when you had the groundwork laid.

[ChillerInstinct]

Even if you don't think they'll like DCF/the first half of NCFPD, I don't think cutting those arcs out entirely is a good idea. There's more than a couple crucial plot moments in there.

If absolutely nothing else, I'd cherry pick some of the more plot focused strips. #12 might not be a bad idea (the birth of the recurring "up/down a level gag"), especially since it leads into #13 where the beginning of the plot really starts. You could PROBABLY skip #24-34, pick up at #35 (since it leads into the scene of Roy being told the chimera wasn't the foreshadowing), and keep going ALL the way to #85. Can probably skip to #91, since it starts the whole "goblin tunnel" bit that goes all the way to the Xykon fight. #91 right through to the end of DCF is pretty much all stuff you'll want your friend to see.

Can probably skip the one-off gag in #121, and show everything from 122-135 (I mean, you could TECHNICALLY skip 135, but with the Heroism potions making a few appearances since then, especially during WaXPs, I'd recommend keeping it). Maybe show 136 too, if only for the setup at the end of BRitF.

#139 is important, can probably keep going through #142. The ogre battle can probably be skipped, but #147 is INCREDIBLY important, and the whole Bandit camp miniarc, followed by the "V as a lizard/Black Dragon" miniarc, has quite a few important callbacks, and then... Miko. so everything from #147-209 is must-read. Mud farmer miniarc, not so much, but the inn sets up Haley's speech loss, so #224 is where to start off again.

And after the inn becomes the rollercoaster of a ride between the Order getting arrested, the Linear Guild hiring Pompey, the trial, the Order of the Scribble, and all sorts of fun stuff right through to the end of the arc.

And from there? Well, that's where War and XPs starts, and from that point onwards I'd say no more skipping. Besides, if he's gotten this far, he's probably hooked.

It's a bit scattershot, I know, but I think it's probably the best way to get all the important plot details from the earlier two books short of reading the entirety of them.

[Haarkla]

I'd recomend strip #1, or #12, the first really good one, and after which you start getting some continuity.

Other good places to start would be strips 43, 199 or 318.

[Albion]

I appreciate the conversation that has been going on. Personally, I still like the early parts, being a part of the whole. What I'm trying to say is, it all adds up to the storyline. And the fact that the outlook and even the style changes, it's all in favor for me.

Referring to the original question... why not #239? just for the hell of it.

[6000j]

As someone who recently got through the entire strip, start to finish, for the first time, I say that starting at the start gives the comics an introduction. In a book, the plotline isn't started straight away. So why should oots be any different?

[Zaclock]

As someone who started reading in early 2005 with little D&D knowledge (although enough to understand many of the references), I'd say the best way to hook a new reader is to encourage him/her to read it as it was meant to be: a webcomic.

You tell your friend: "Read one strip a day, starting with #1. It won't take much of your time. If you wanna read more one day, do so. But read at least one every day. I promise you, you'll get hooked and eventually thank me."

It's like a TV series: if you binge-watch it, you'll quickly forget about the characters and the plot and move on. But if you let time to the great characters and the dense story to sink in, to suddenly pop up in your mind while you take your shower, trying to make sense of the Snarl, if you get to wait for the next comic, eagerly curious of knowing what's gonna happen, that's when you get hooked. I've been binge-reading the PDF lately, it's really not the same to me.

If you go with this perspective, it really doesn't matter where your friend starts reading. Although #1 is probably best since it is the starting point, where the plot and character development began. And, to repeat myself, as it was meant to be read.

[Peelee]

If you plan on them reading the whole strip regardless, the original strips are by far the weakest part of the comic, which means it's harder to hook people on them, but it's also harder to read them if you get started later and enjoy the quality. It's kind of a catch-22. I'd have 'em start at the beginning.

[littlebum2002]

It's like a TV series: if you binge-watch it, you'll quickly forget about the characters and the plot and move on. But if you let time to the great characters and the dense story to sink in, to suddenly pop up in your mind while you take your shower, trying to make sense of the Snarl, if you get to wait for the next comic, eagerly curious of knowing what's gonna happen, that's when you get hooked. I've been binge-reading the PDF lately, it's really not the same to me.

Wait...so if you read/watch all at once (binge watch), you forget the plot, but if you wait between each installment you remember it?

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you be MORE likely to remember something you saw/read a week ago than something you read/saw 30 minutes ago?

I binge watch Game of Thrones, and I've always known what's going on. But I just watched the new episode and I am totally lost, because, oddly enough, my memory didn't get better over the last few months. Probably because that's not how memory works at all.

[Zaclock]

Wait...so if you read/watch all at once (binge watch), you forget the plot, but if you wait between each installment you remember it?

I'll indulge myself with a moment of grammar pedantry: the transitive and the intransitive. I said "forget about the characters and the plot" [intrans.], as in "stop caring about", not "forget the characters and the plot" [trans.], as in "not remember".

My argument about the idea of initiating new readers step by step had nothing to do with memory. I binge-watched 5-6 seasons of Breaking Bad in 2-3 weeks. I LOVED it. But I haven't cared much about it since, nor given it much thought, certainly not as much as it deserves. And not the way I would have had if I had watched it season by season over 5-6 years.

[DavidBV]

Nowadays (for good or ill) the RPGs have permeated into every other game genre. Even soccer games have levels and XP. and even my grandma plays Clash of Clans and levels up her barbarians.

So I think you overestimate the rules as a deterrent factor; if some people doesn't get hooked, maybe it is because the comic isn't for them. Which is perfectly fine, I rarely love the things that are also popular among my family and non-gaming friends.

To answer the original question, strip 1. It is particularly D&D dependant, but it gets better after a few pages. If they don't find it funny by the time Durkon calls Thorprayer(TM) at #7, I doubt they'll really like it.

[littlebum2002]

To answer the original question, strip 1. It is particularly D&D dependant, but it gets better after a few pages. If they don't find it funny by the time Durkon calls Thorprayer(TM) at #7, I doubt they'll really like it.

I love this strip, I have every book and PDF and have read them all multiple times, and I hate the beginning strips. I don't find them funny at all.

It's not even that they're rules jokes. V and Belkar arguing about V's ability to teleport was a rule joke, but it was funny. It's just that the jokes aren't that funny. They don't have punchlines. They're just slightly amusing anecdotes to what happens in dungeons.

"Bluff the stupid ogre", Elan taking the belt, Elan's naked scene, and Durkon's math skills are all kinda funny, but I'm reading through now and the first "laugh out loud" moment I had was perhaps Thog's internal monologue scene.

So no, I totally disagree with the idea that if you don't like the humor in the beginning part of the strip, you won't like the completely different and unrelated humor throughout the rest of the strip.

[Ruck]

Nowadays (for good or ill) the RPGs have permeated into every other game genre. Even soccer games have levels and XP. and even my grandma plays Clash of Clans and levels up her barbarians.

So I think you overestimate the rules as a deterrent factor; if some people doesn't get hooked, maybe it is because the comic isn't for them. Which is perfectly fine, I rarely love the things that are also popular among my family and non-gaming friends.
No, I don't, because, again, I'm talking about people who tell me they were a deterrent factor.


And some of them don't play any games. Not even simple freeware or Facebook Games-type stuff. But I think the story has value well beyond its relevance as a fantasy or gaming story.

To answer the original question, strip 1. It is particularly D&D dependant, but it gets better after a few pages. If they don't find it funny by the time Durkon calls Thorprayer(TM) at #7, I doubt they'll really like it.


I love this strip, I have every book and PDF and have read them all multiple times, and I hate the beginning strips. I don't find them funny at all.

It's not even that they're rules jokes. V and Belkar arguing about V's ability to teleport was a rule joke, but it was funny. It's just that the jokes aren't that funny. They don't have punchlines. They're just slightly amusing anecdotes to what happens in dungeons.

"Bluff the stupid ogre", Elan taking the belt, Elan's naked scene, and Durkon's math skills are all kinda funny, but I'm reading through now and the first "laugh out loud" moment I had was perhaps Thog's internal monologue scene.

So no, I totally disagree with the idea that if you don't like the humor in the beginning part of the strip, you won't like the completely different and unrelated humor throughout the rest of the strip.
I don't hate the early strips, but I agree that they aren't necessarily the best introduction. Some of the jokes are good, and I even think #12 is a good way to shorthand introduce most of the Order's personalities, but mostly, those strips aren't really an indicator of how good the series would become.

[An Enemy Spy]

Telling someone to read Order of the Stick but skipping Dungeon Crawling Fools is like telling someone to read Lord of the Rings but skip everything before The Ring Goes South, cause you know, that's where the journey to Mordor really begins and the beginning segments are written in a way that don't quite mesh with the rest of the story. The very notion is ludicrous. DCF matters. It's where we get to know who our heroes are and why we should give a crap that the redhead loses her voice, or that the bald fighter guy wants to kill the evil skeleton, or that the silly blond guy has an evil twin. You can't invest in a character you haven't seen develop. Imagine showing someone the scene where Durkon is killed, only they have no idea who Durkon or Belkar or Malack are. It doesn't matter how well the scene is written, they won't care about any of it because they haven't been with these characters through all their personal journeys. They're just strangers to them.
And furthermore, DCF establishes right from the start what kind of story this will be. The characters talk about the rules of the game they are governed by, discuss the events as a work of fiction that they live inside of, and make references to things that exiast in our world but don't exist in theirs. They get that all out in the open out of the gate so it won't be jarring to the reader for the protagonist of their fantasy series to suddenly say he's making a skill check in the middle of a serious scene. The early stuff inundates you in the fourth wall breaking and rules references so that when the later stuff gets more heavy, you're so used to it that it doesn't pull you out of the narrative.

[littlebum2002]

stuff.

Perhaps you've missed this entire thread, but no one is discussing skipping DCF. Rather, we're discussing skipping it, temporarily, until one gets interested in the plot then coming back to read it later.

Of course it's vital to the plot, but it's vital-ness (I doubt that's a word) is irrelevant if someone gets bored and stops reading. Which, to be honest, I would have done if I had started from the front, and this is hands down my favorite webcomic.

[An Enemy Spy]

Perhaps you've missed this entire thread, but no one is discussing skipping DCF. Rather, we're discussing skipping it, temporarily, until one gets interested in the plot then coming back to read it later.

Of course it's vital to the plot, but it's vital-ness (I doubt that's a word) is irrelevant if someone gets bored and stops reading. Which, to be honest, I would have done if I had started from the front, and this is hands down my favorite webcomic.

My contention is that if they start at a later point, they'll have no reason to care about anything going on, like starting a movie in the middle of it. How about this, instead of starting them at a later chapter and having them read it before circling around to the beginning, you show show them a very small sample of disparate and unrelated strips that contain nothing that would give away the plot, like a movie trailer. If the quality of writing is something they'd be interested in, then you can start them at #1. I would never have them read an entire book before they even read the first page though.

[Ruck]

My contention is that if they start at a later point, they'll have no reason to care about anything going on, like starting a movie in the middle of it.
As I said in the OP, I started at #428 and became engrossed pretty quickly. I had to go back to the beginning to understand it all, but it is certainly possible to care enough to continue after starting in the middle.

I feel like several people are using hypothetical cases to argue over what people should think, as opposed to the actual opinions of the people I'm trying to get to read this series and the actual experience I've had trying to get them to do so.

[littlebum2002]

My contention is that if they start at a later point, they'll have no reason to care about anything going on, like starting a movie in the middle of it. How about this, instead of starting them at a later chapter and having them read it before circling around to the beginning, you show show them a very small sample of disparate and unrelated strips that contain nothing that would give away the plot, like a movie trailer. If the quality of writing is something they'd be interested in, then you can start them at #1. I would never have them read an entire book before they even read the first page though.

And if they start in the beginning, they get bored and stop reading. I can't think of anything in the first 100 strips or so that makes me care about the characters more than events later in the strip.

That's why I suggested #199. If you read it and the following few strips, it recaps everything that's happened in the comic so far. You get all the plot important information you need without the tedious not funny gag strips

I mean, even the guy who writes the strip admits the early ones are hard to get through. Yeesh.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As someone who actually started at the beginning with strip #1, I didn't find them that boring or difficult to get through. Heck, I kind of enjoyed (for the most part) the earlier humor of the strips, though maybe that's just because I enjoy jokes that are heavily based on D&D. While I think anyone can agree it gets a lot better after DCF, I don't see any reason to skip straight past it either.

[DavidBV]

I mean, even the guy who writes the strip admits the early ones are hard to get through. Yeesh.

And is wrong about it, like most creators when they look back upon their early works and fail to recognize it properly ;)

[zinycor]

you show show them a very small sample of disparate and unrelated strips that contain nothing that would give away the plot, like a movie trailer.

Exactly!! You nailed it! The question should be: Which strips would work better as some sort of "movie trailer" for oots? ?

[Laurana]

I'd say, start at the beginning, but warn them that the story, the characters, the humour and the art all get a lot better later on.

Then tell them that if they're not hooked by strip #277 (end of the crayons of time), then it probably isn't for them and they are allowed to put it down.:smallsmile:

LittleBum's suggestion of starting at 199 and then coming back after they're hooked is good though.

[Mightymosy]

I started at #1 and loved it. Honestly, starting much later probably wouldn't have worked for me.

It depends on where your focus is, though. I wanted a funny comic, and for me early OotS delivers perfectly in that sense. I got so soaked in because of the awesome humor of the early strips, and then later stayed to watch how the exciting plot will end.

By the way, I don't now anything really about D&D apart from this strip and later this forum here, but still laughed my head off. I think most of the jokes work with general pen&pencil roleplaying game players, the strip doesn't require specific knowledge about D&D in particular.
For non-gamers, I think it might be a lot more difficult to find the early strips interesting.

It is a bit more difficult of you want to sell the story to someone who you think would be more interested in a good plot. Because while OotS does have a great plot, it is tough to start reading a plot-based story somewhere in between, and the start of OotS was not exactly plot-based. So how should you start caring for anything that happens?

[KillingAScarab]

Exactly!! You nailed it! The question should be: Which strips would work better as some sort of "movie trailer" for oots? ?Most of them have Elan, I think. Whether it is that panel of hooded brooding Elan, Elan leaping from the Mechane (with Thog) or to narrowly escape an explosion. Also, metal album cover Belkar, Haley's "Wands!" and Roy facing the camera speaking to an unknown person (cut away before Eric is revealed). If its a movie trailer by a newer company compelled to include a hashtag, it must be #explosiverunes

[Takver]

Movie Trailer Strips:

This current interlude with Lien and O-Chul stands well by itself, but might be a bit too talky. Perhaps just 1033 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1033.html)-1035.

955 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html) is a great one except I worry about Durkon spoilers.

750 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html) is a good one. Even if you don't know the characters you can still follow at least three "arcs" in that strip.

705 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html)-707 make a good mini-arc. I know a lot of people hated what the elf leader did, but even if your reader does, that just makes it a good discussion point.

Maybe 541 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) & 542.

337 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html), with or without 336. Always been one of the funniest strips to me.

[Mightymosy]

337 I can relate with. Very funny strip. And it was the most recent one when I first found the comic, I think.:smallbiggrin:

[Thanatos95]

I tell people to start at the beginning, and that if they arn't laughing by #7(ThorPrayerTM) then there is something wrong with them. When I introduced my best friend to the strip, Thor Prayer had him literally rolling on the floor laughing. It took him several minutes to calm down.

[veti]

Do what the OP did: follow a link from TVTropes. That way, they've got some kind of reason to be interested.

Otherwise, it's a chicken-and-egg problem. You don't care about the story unless you care about the characters, and you won't care about the characters until you've got to know them at least a little. The jokes (in the first strips) may draw you in far enough to get invested.

And if they don't - that's OK. Honest. It's not some kind of personal failing, either by us or the Giant, if some of our friends don't like his strip. Diff'rent strokes.

[littlebum2002]

You don't care about the story unless you care about the characters, and you won't care about the characters until you've got to know them at least a little.

Someone is just as likely (if not more so) to start caring about the characters if they start slightly later in the story than if they start at Strip 1. There are plenty of good stories that start in media res, yet no one complains about getting plot before having a chance to learn about the characters. As long as they start reading before Miko& Roy, which is pretty much the first character development plot, they'll be fine.

[NerdyKris]

I started reading at the Oracle, which intrigued me enough to want to find out what was going on and who Nale was.

But at this point, I think the thread is just going around in circles. If you want to get them interested, show them a not to spoilery scene that you think appeals to their personal tastes and then have them start at strip #1. Like every movie trailer or TV Teaser in existence. Or just have them start at strip #1. Or give them a cliff notes version up to where you think they'd start getting into the plot. Or, since everyone is different, maybe we should all just agree that there's no one location that is best for everyone, and maybe stop making comments like there being something wrong with you if you don't laugh at the awful puns in the early strips.

[zinycor]

I would just look for whatever strips are more funny, interesting or exciting in order to grab their attention, just like I would do with whatever media i would reccomend.

If I wanted to reccommend the Hulk comics to someone I wouldn't tell them to get the first comics ever printed of him, (even if they were easily available) I would reccomend Planet Hulk, and hope that the person likes it enough to look more on the hulk by herself.

[ode]

Which strip had "Go Team Cleric" in it? Because I reference that bit frequently and couldn't imagine starting someone after it appears.

[Jasdoif]

Which strip had "Go Team Cleric" in it?That would be 77 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html).

[littlebum2002]

If I wanted to reccommend the Hulk comics to someone I wouldn't tell them to get the first comics ever printed of him, (even if they were easily available) I would reccomend Planet Hulk, and hope that the person likes it enough to look more on the hulk by herself.

This. Can you imagine if anytime someone wanted to start reading Batman the only option was to start in 1939 and work their way forward?

[Wildroses]

Personally, I also recommend starting at the beginning. I knew nothing about D&D when starting, but I do play fantasy RPGs and read a lot of fantasy and SF and I think that was what bridged the gap. This world in which the inhabitants not only knew their reality was ruled by numbers, formulas and fiction tropes but could also manipulate them for their advantage I found utterly hilarious. The friend who was getting me to read them (who also knew nothing about D&D when he started) really enjoyed listening to me laughing so much. So if you have friends into fiction or video games, I wouldn't be alarmed at recommending this from the beginning.

Also, character is as important to me than plot, which is another reason I also recommend starting at the beginning. Obsure rule D&D jokes aren't the only thing being established in this series, so are the characters. It was the characters and their interactions which attracted me as much as the humour. So if your friends find character important, don't be afraid to tell them to start from number one.

However, seeing as you did request different places from number one to start: I shall recommend early book two (comic 122). If you have book two lying around, give your friends that. It's when Rich was really starting to get into his stride as a plot writer as well as character interaction and D&D rules jokes, but it was before the Gates plots really stepped and started requiring a lot of back knowledge. So readers will get to enjoy the several plot lines in the overarching: "Find the starmetal" storyline, which are the bandits, V becomes a lizard and the black dragons, and you will also have hints of the overarching plot of the comic with cutaways to the villains starting a powerbase with the hobgobilns and Miyo closing in on the heroes.

If you don't happen to have book two lying around, then consider get them to start from comic 139, which has Roy convincing everyone to go find the starmetal serving as a nice necessary plot recap to set up the following mini-arcs. The next is Belkar on the weiner dog. Comics 122-138 could be perceived as more rules jokes. I wouldn't call this a deal breaker for the book format however. In fact, I'm inclined to think new readers should be aware there will be rules jokes in this comic, as for better or worse they are a key part of it's identity. Trying to hide or even downplay that The Order of the Stick has D&D rules jokes feels a bit like trying to hide the Mortal Kombat series has graphic violence or Harry Potter has wizards and witches. Any people trying them out are going to come across them sooner or later, and they are a pretty crucial part of their identity.

[hroþila]

This. Can you imagine if anytime someone wanted to start reading Batman the only option was to start in 1939 and work their way forward?
Apples and oranges. The continuity in Marvel/DC superhero comics is a completely different affair, as the stories have been relaunched plenty of times. And they're a lot more episodic to begin with.

[mouser9169]

If I wanted to recommend the Hulk comics to someone I wouldn't tell them to get the first comics ever printed of him, (even if they were easily available) I would reccomend Planet Hulk, and hope that the person likes it enough to look more on the hulk by herself.

They actually are pretty readily available - Marvel Unlimited has most of the major comics available online now, for a pretty reasonable subscription. My daughter was getting into the comics and asked me where to start - I suggested the 80's. She'll catch the Dark Phoenix Saga, Inferno, and Secret Wars (which pretty much launched the 'modern era' of comics). If she gets bored, she can pick another spot to skip to.

That's not really a good comparison to OotS though, since there are many arcs and restarts and reshufflings in the comics: they don't have one main plot that carries from start to end - at least in the series lasting for hundreds of issues like I think you're talking about.

[zinycor]

They actually are pretty readily available - Marvel Unlimited has most of the major comics available online now, for a pretty reasonable subscription. My daughter was getting into the comics and asked me where to start - I suggested the 80's. She'll catch the Dark Phoenix Saga, Inferno, and Secret Wars (which pretty much launched the 'modern era' of comics). If she gets bored, she can pick another spot to skip to.

That's not really a good comparison to OotS though, since there are many arcs and restarts and reshufflings in the comics: they don't have one main plot that carries from start to end - at least in the series lasting for hundreds of issues like I think you're talking about.

I agree, that the nature of the Marvel/DC comics is quite different to Oots, but my point is that as a first look into the comic I would look for the best strips on oots in order to give a nice first impression. Starting on strip 001 wouldn't give such a good impression, specially for someone who isn't into DnD or roleplaying games.

[Ruck]

So in a discussion about webcomics on another forum today, I actually did get asked if there was a better place to start than the very beginning, to get an idea of what's going on.

Based on my own thoughts and the responses in this thread, here's the list I came up with:

#13 - the plot of Book 1 is introduced.
#43 - the first serialized subplot begins.
#94 - the point when the author decided on the long-term story he was telling, and characters take a more definite shape (especially the bad guys).
#122 - the beginning of Book 2.
#139 or #150 - the beginning of the Order's next quest. (if you start at #139, you'll get some strips in between about the bad guys, which will be a helpful introduction to them.)
#198 - art upgrade and the beginning of the next plotline.
#260 - the beginning of Book 2's final subplot, which is where the reader is filled in on the Whole Story.

[Emanick]

A couple days ago, I linked a longtime friend of mine to #1,032 (the one where O-Chul and Lien are talking about their favorite foods) to explain how someone could be a pessimistic optimist. She didn't respond immediately, but last night - 24 hours later - she told me that she was already on #300 after reading that strip and then starting over from the beginning. I feel bad, because she's in the middle of finals right now... but hey, #OOTS4ever, right? :smallamused:

That makes me think that perhaps the best way to get somebody hooked may not always be to get them to start at a certain place and read on from there, as I've always thought. Sometimes it may suffice to link them to a later strip that you know they'll like, and that may sell them on it enough to read the whole thing. That has the downside of spoiling some plot points - and #1,032 was certainly an unfortunate strip to link to in that respect - but it might have a higher "conversion rate." :smalltongue:

[zinycor]

A couple days ago, I linked a longtime friend of mine to #1,032 (the one where O-Chul and Lien are talking about their favorite foods) to explain how someone could be a pessimistic optimist. She didn't respond immediately, but last night - 24 hours later - she told me that she was already on #300 after reading that strip and then starting over from the beginning. I feel bad, because she's in the middle of finals right now... but hey, #OOTS4ever, right? :smallamused:

That makes me think that perhaps the best way to get somebody hooked may not always be to get them to start at a certain place and read on from there, as I've always thought. Sometimes it may suffice to link them to a later strip that you know they'll like, and that may sell them on it enough to read the whole thing. That has the downside of spoiling some plot points - and #1,032 was certainly an unfortunate strip to link to in that respect - but it might have a higher "conversion rate." :smalltongue:

Nice! that's exactly what I think it's the ebst way to introduce the comic.