Truenamer vs Expert: Who's a better Truenamer?

[Judge_Worm]

Exactly what it says on the tin. An Expert can take any ten skills as class skills. By definition any includes Truename. So with the right feats, who's better at being a Truenamer, at any given level (not just 1 or 20)?


For bonus discussion which of these build stubs is the most powerful?
A. Truenamer 20
B. Truenamer 19/Expert 1
C. Truenamer 10/Expert 10
D. Truenamer 1/Expert 19
E. Expert 20

[Alex12]

Factotum (and his inferior little brother Savant) both get all skills as class skills, and take a giant steaming dump on both of them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Exactly what it says on the tin. An Expert can take any ten skills as class skills. By definition any includes Truename. So with the right feats, who's better at being a Truenamer, at any given level (not just 1 or 20)?


For bonus discussion which of these build stubs is the most powerful?
A. Truenamer 20
B. Truenamer 19/Expert 1
C. Truenamer 10/Expert 10
D. Truenamer 1/Expert 19
E. Expert 20

This is a joke, right?

Expert doesn't advance utterances and gets the same number of feats a truenamer does. What a truenamer does isn't terribly impressive next to a proper caster but it's not something any other class can just do because they put ranks in truenaming. It's also notably more than most T5 and T6 classes can do.

I get that the class is unpopular but this absurd.

[Jormengand]

Factotum (and his inferior little brother Savant) both get all skills as class skills, and take a giant steaming dump on both of them.

You're kidding, right? Factotum cannot speak utterances of higher level than second, and even second is LEM only.


For bonus discussion which of these build stubs is the most powerful?
A. Truenamer 20
B. Truenamer 19/Expert 1
C. Truenamer 10/Expert 10
D. Truenamer 1/Expert 19
E. Expert 20

A, followed by B, followed by C, followed by E, followed by D. The truenamer 1 dip doesn't actually really help you, honestly. The expert 1 dip loses you Say My Name and I am There and Conjunctive Gate for no good reason.

I suspect if you're asking this question, you don't know how utterances and utterance feats work. There is no utterance feat for higher than LEM 2/LCT 1/LPM 1. While a free LPM 1 utterance (hint: Fog from the Void) isn't exactly bad, it's not exactly amazing either and certainly not going to stand up to a real truenamer.

The real question, though, is "Without using sacrifices/infinite loops/wish tricks, how hard is it to build an expert 20 who stands up to a normally built truenamer 20?" Assume the truenamer can comfortably quicken, let's say, 5 of each utterance before having to roll because that seems easy enough (ranks, item familiar, MWK tool, GAotST, skill focus, intelligence, being an illumian: all that kind of basic stuff).

[khadgar567]

You're kidding, right? Factotum cannot speak utterances of higher level than second, and even second is LEM only.



A, followed by B, followed by C, followed by E, followed by D. The truenamer 1 dip doesn't actually really help you, honestly. The expert 1 dip loses you Say My Name and I am There and Conjunctive Gate for no good reason.

I suspect if you're asking this question, you don't know how utterances and utterance feats work. There is no utterance feat for higher than LEM 2/LCT 1/LPM 1. While a free LPM 1 utterance (hint: Fog from the Void) isn't exactly bad, it's not exactly amazing either and certainly not going to stand up to a real truenamer.

The real question, though, is "Without using sacrifices/infinite loops/wish tricks, how hard is it to build an expert 20 who stands up to a normally built truenamer 20?" Assume the truenamer can comfortably quicken, let's say, 5 of each utterance before having to roll because that seems easy enough (ranks, item familiar, MWK tool, GAotST, skill focus, intelligence, being an illumian: all that kind of basic stuff).

Agreed with world serpent pluss even with just dream scarred toys truenamer pawns with autority

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The real question, though, is "Without using sacrifices/infinite loops/wish tricks, how hard is it to build an expert 20 who stands up to a normally built truenamer 20?" Assume the truenamer can comfortably quicken, let's say, 5 of each utterance before having to roll because that seems easy enough (ranks, item familiar, MWK tool, GAotST, skill focus, intelligence, being an illumian: all that kind of basic stuff).Invest heavily in both Diplomacy and Lucid Dreaming so you can gain stupidly powerful fanatical followers while you sleep.

So, not really that hard.

[Jormengand]

Invest heavily in both Diplomacy and Lucid Dreaming so you can gain stupidly powerful fanatical followers while you sleep.

So, not really that hard.

Hmm... are we talking about followers who can stand up to being solar'd in the face? I don't know exactly how LD works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm... are we talking about followers who can stand up to being solar'd in the face? I don't know exactly how LD works.Dreamers are pulled into the World of Dreams when they sleep, where they are virtually defenseless against anyone who comes across them there if they don't also invest in the Lucid Dreaming skill. So you use LD to visit them, Diplomance them to the Abyss and back, and when they wake up, they're your mind slave devoted follower. Anyone who resists will have their consciousness be pulled into the Dreamheart with a grapple check, followed by a DC 25 LD check. After that, their body will forevermore be rendered comatose, and they can't escape unless they have ranks in LD.

[Jormengand]

Dreamers are pulled into the World of Dreams when they sleep, where they are virtually defenseless against anyone who comes across them there if they don't also invest in the Lucid Dreaming skill. So you use LD to visit them, Diplomance them to the Abyss and back, and when they wake up, they're your mind slave devoted follower. Anyone who resists will have their consciousness be pulled into the Dreamheart with a grapple check, followed by a DC 25 LD check. After that, their body will forevermore be rendered comatose, and they can't escape unless they have ranks in LD.

Hmm. Tricksy. But probably the kind of thing that anyone who can help you take on a truenamer has defenses against, TBH.

I don't know, what about if you have to go it alone? No dreamers, no Solars?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm. Tricksy. But probably the kind of thing that anyone who can help you take on a truenamer has defenses against, TBH.Then just pull him into the Dreamheart. There's literally no way to defend against it or escape unless he's got ranks in Lucid Dreaming.

Or, y'know, he never sleeps. Most characters can't do that, though.


I don't know, what about if you have to go it alone? No dreamers, no Solars?Diplomancy normally, then.

[Jormengand]

Then just pull him into the Dreamheart. There's literally no way to defend against it or escape unless he's got ranks in Lucid Dreaming.

Or, y'know, he never sleeps. Most characters can't do that, though.

Elf (or other race that doesn't sleep) truenamer. Go. :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Elf (or other race that doesn't sleep) truenamer. Go. :smalltongue:Then go after some solars and have them do the gate shuffle on your behalf.

[Gildedragon]

Elf (or other race that doesn't sleep) truenamer. Go. :smalltongue:

Magically boosted unconscious effect poison. Not a sleep effect, elves therefore not immune.

[Jormengand]

Then go after some solars and have them do the gate shuffle on your behalf.

Ehh, truenamer can do that faster because he can call one as a swift action. :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ehh, truenamer can do that faster because he can call one as a swift action. :smalltongue:At what level, though?

Betcha $30 that the expert has been able to Diplomance solars and balors for quite a bit longer by that point.

[Jormengand]

At what level, though?

Betcha $30 that the expert has been able to Diplomance solars and balors for quite a bit longer by that point.

No bet. I did say 20th level (I did also say you have to go it alone later).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No bet. I did say 20th level (I did also say you have to go it alone later).Considering you've used your skillset to get infinite wishes by that point, I don't think "going it alone" at level 20 will cause you many problems.

[Zanos]

If I recall correctly, the Plane of Dreams is not part of the core cosmology, and is explicitly listed under variant planes. It is not a default part of any setting, and only exists if your DM explicitly includes it. Since all powerful uses of Lucid Dreaming depend on the Plane of Dreams existing, I don't think it's a strong argument for Expert.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I recall correctly, the Plane of Dreams is not part of the core cosmology, and is explicitly listed under variant planes. It is not a default part of any setting, and only exists if your DM explicitly includes it. Since all powerful uses of Lucid Dreaming depend on the Plane of Dreams existing, I don't think it's a strong argument for Expert.If you have access to Lucid Dreaming, you automatically have access to the Plane of Dreams as a side-effect.

[Zanos]

I don't see how that does anything to counter the point that the Region of Dreams doesn't exist in any default cosmology, and requires specific inclusion.

MoP 201
https://i.gyazo.com/84d1ccc5147071e2aa36f62aaabfe6c3.png

[Jormengand]

So, it saddens me that the obvious counter to truenamer is to send him to a plane that he can't go to and doesn't exist, and then kill him.

[daremetoidareyo]

I don't see how that does anything to counter the point that the Region of Dreams doesn't exist in any default cosmology, and requires specific inclusion.

MoP 201
https://i.gyazo.com/84d1ccc5147071e2aa36f62aaabfe6c3.png

I agree with you here. Plus, if you have resistance 5 to all the major forms of energy damage, the dreamheart ain't nuthin.

[Troacctid]

So, it saddens me that the obvious counter to truenamer is to send him to a plane that he can't go to and doesn't exist, and then kill him.

I don't know if "obvious" is the word I would use. :smalltongue: