Twinned Polymorph

[Kingscourt]

... Am I reading this correctly? Just hit 8th level as a sorcerer and picked polymorph as my spell. I also have the twinned spell metamagic. Am I really able to turn two people in my party into T-Rexes? With 136 bonus hp and 4d12+7/3d8+7 10ft reach attacks with +10 to hit? That feels a little... strong.

[Shaofoo]

... Am I reading this correctly? Just hit 8th level as a sorcerer and picked polymorph as my spell. I also have the twinned spell metamagic. Am I really able to turn two people in my party into T-Rexes? With 136 bonus hp and 4d12+7/3d8+7 10ft reach attacks with +10 to hit? That feels a little... strong.

Well are you in a game that allows T-Rexes as a potential Polymorph target? You can't just pick and choose monsters from the MM since you don't know what is or what isn't in the DM's world. Plus the whole personality thing is very ambiguous, you can have a monster loose that attacks both sides.

Basically the DM will have to provide valid stats as to what to transform into.

[kaoskonfety]

... Am I reading this correctly? Just hit 8th level as a sorcerer and picked polymorph as my spell. I also have the twinned spell metamagic. Am I really able to turn two people in my party into T-Rexes? With 136 bonus hp and 4d12+7/3d8+7 10ft reach attacks with +10 to hit? That feels a little... strong.

That is my understanding.

This and similar will, of course, make you target #1 for any reasoning foe that understands what just happened.

And as Shaofoo mentions at most tables you need to know the thing exists to turn someone into it, and the DM holds the keys on "what I know about but haven't stabbed to death or ridden".

[BiPolar]

That is my understanding.

This and similar will, of course, make you target #1 for any reasoning foe that understands what just happened.

And as Shaofoo mentions at most tables you need to know the thing exists to turn someone into it, and the DM holds the keys on "what I know about but haven't stabbed to death or ridden".


Well, by RAW you don't have to know it exists, it's just pick any beast whose CR is equal to or less than the target's level. But a DM can say they simply don't exist in their world (in which case, he can never bring one in as an enemy) or can houserule it to be more akin to the Druid Wildshape ability. But by rule, it's just pick any beast within the possible CR.

[RulesJD]

Generally speaking a Giant Ape is a better choice for it's comparable damage and climbing speed.

[KorvinStarmast]

Generally speaking a Giant Ape is a better choice for it's comparable damage and climbing speed.
On the down side, if the twinning turns one char into a male Giant Ape and one into a female Giant Ape ... things might get R rated kind of quick. :smallbiggrin:

[RickAllison]

On the down side, if the twinning turns one char into a male Giant Ape and one into a female Giant Ape ... things might get R rated kind of quick. :smallbiggrin:

It's probably better than if the two T-rexes felt the heat of the moment...

[Shaofoo]

Well, by RAW you don't have to know it exists, it's just pick any beast whose CR is equal to or less than the target's level. But a DM can say they simply don't exist in their world (in which case, he can never bring one in as an enemy) or can houserule it to be more akin to the Druid Wildshape ability. But by rule, it's just pick any beast within the possible CR.

By RAW you are limited to the beasts that appear in the back of the PHB because as a player your only recourse is the PHB. The MM can be modified and changed at will by the DM (and conservatively the DMG also follows this as well). You can turn into a T-Rex but that decision is 100% DM dependent because not only can he say yea or nay to T-Rexes but he can freely modify the stats of them at will and you have no say on the matter.

If the DM doesn't want you to have a T-Rex then you can't and that is 100% RAW because the DM chooses which monsters exist and how they exist, no house rules needed.

[comk59]

All this being said, I would not mind two players becoming T-Rexes and getting in a territorial fued, while both the players and and enemies just try to stay out of the way.

[BiPolar]

By RAW you are limited to the beasts that appear in the back of the PHB because as a player your only recourse is the PHB. The MM can be modified and changed at will by the DM (and conservatively the DMG also follows this as well). You can turn into a T-Rex but that decision is 100% DM dependent because not only can he say yea or nay to T-Rexes but he can freely modify the stats of them at will and you have no say on the matter.

If the DM doesn't want you to have a T-Rex then you can't and that is 100% RAW because the DM chooses which monsters exist and how they exist, no house rules needed.

Where does it state you are limited to the back of the PHB? The spell text is only states it must be a "...beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating.)"(PHB 266). This does not state that you can only choose from Appendix D, just that the creature choice must be a Beast.

But yes, DM fiat trumps rules, but by rules, it's just pick a beast.

edit: And the statistics are the statistics of the beast. Again, the DM can overrule and override, but by RAW, it's the beast stat block.

[sandvirm]

Where does it state you are limited to the back of the PHB? The spell text is only states it must be a "...beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating.)"(PHB 266). This does not state that you can only choose from Appendix D, just that the creature choice must be a Beast.

But yes, DM fiat trumps rules, but by rules, it's just pick a beast.

edit: And the statistics are the statistics of the beast. Again, the DM can overrule and override, but by RAW, it's the beast stat block.

To my knowledge, there is no limit in the PHB. However, Adventurers League limits it to the PHB and "Monster Manual Appendix A (beasts only)". If you're not playing Adventurers League (or in a group that uses AL rules for home games, I guess), then enjoy your T-Rex.

[PoeticDwarf]

Well, by RAW you don't have to know it exists, it's just pick any beast whose CR is equal to or less than the target's level. But a DM can say they simply don't exist in their world (in which case, he can never bring one in as an enemy) or can houserule it to be more akin to the Druid Wildshape ability. But by rule, it's just pick any beast within the possible CR.

You can't pick someone you don't know exsists.

Even RAW it won't work

[sandvirm]

You can't pick someone you don't know exsists.

Even RAW it won't work

I guess that's why the character sheet has space for "List all the beasts you know to exist here:"

[BiPolar]

You can't pick someone you don't know exsists.

Even RAW it won't work

As Sandvirm joked, there is no section of the character sheet for "beasts known." The RAW simply states to pick a beast, any beast, as long as the CR rating is valid.

This is opposed to Druid Wildshape which stipulates (PHB 66) "you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before."

So the DM can say that it either doesn't exist in their world (which means it really should never show up as a monster to fight) or that they require you to have seen it before, but those are DM overrides of the RAW.

[Shaofoo]

Where does it state you are limited to the back of the PHB? The spell text is only states it must be a "...beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating.)"(PHB 266). This does not state that you can only choose from Appendix D, just that the creature choice must be a Beast.

But yes, DM fiat trumps rules, but by rules, it's just pick a beast.

edit: And the statistics are the statistics of the beast. Again, the DM can overrule and override, but by RAW, it's the beast stat block.

You do not have access to the MM and no where does the book reference it or even allude to it. You can't claim rules that do not exist. You are basically saying "It doesn't say I can't therefore I can" when the MM book is basically off limits to players, even the introduction to the MM states you as the DM, not the player. So if you want your RAW the book basically says that it is for DM's only (since ti addresses to them).

Could you do it as written if everything was allowed, yes. But it first must be allowed by the DM before it can even exist in this game and even the books say that the monetrs are to be inspiration not that they must be as written. This isn't DM fiat it is how the game functions on the most basic level, unless you are saying the DM creating the world the game takes place in is DM fiat and that there is a standard world for all adventures to happen.

Basically it doesn't make sense to turn into a monster that the players should not know about. I don't think it is DM fiat to try and keep a coherent world.

[BiPolar]

You do not have access to the MM and no where does the book reference it or even allude to it. You can't claim rules that do not exist. You are basically saying "It doesn't say I can't therefore I can" when the MM book is basically off limits to players, even the introduction to the MM states you as the DM, not the player. So if you want your RAW the book basically says that it is for DM's only (since ti addresses to them).

Could you do it as written if everything was allowed, yes. But it first must be allowed by the DM before it can even exist in this game and even the books say that the monetrs are to be inspiration not that they must be as written. This isn't DM fiat it is how the game functions on the most basic level, unless you are saying the DM creating the world the game takes place in is DM fiat and that there is a standard world for all adventures to happen.

Basically it doesn't make sense to turn into a monster that the players should not know about. I don't think it is DM fiat to try and keep a coherent world.

If that were the case, ShaoFoo, I highly doubt that the Adventurers League would allow beasts from the MM, which they do. They limit what you can choose from the MM, but the MM is still available.

I'm not creating a rule of "It doesn't say I can't, therefore I can't." I'm stating that the limitation that Wild Shape has (must have seen the creature before) does not apply to polymorph. Why? Because it doesn't state it. It ONLY states to pick a BEAST. What's a Beast? Something with the creature type Beast.

And where in the DMG does it state it isn't for the players?

In addition, how do you know elemental/celestial/woodland being types for conjuring if you don't have a MM? Or how do you create undead without the stat block in the MM?

It is ABSOLUTELY FINE to rule against dinosaurs, change their stat blocks, require knowing a beast first, etc. But those are all houserules/DMs world that he has created. Polymorph very simply allows for any Beast within the allowed CR rating.

[rhouck]

Generally speaking a Giant Ape is a better choice for it's comparable damage and climbing speed.

Plus it has a ranged attack, slightly more hit points, and can make both attacks against the same target (T-Rex has to attack two different targets). It can also grapple well with a +9 Athletics, and has an intelligence near that of many PCs (Int 7).

T-Rex is cool for flavor, a bit more damage per attack, and the automatic restrained/grapple, but I usually end up picking the Giant Ape even if it is a lower CR.

[RickAllison]

You do not have access to the MM and no where does the book reference it or even allude to it. You can't claim rules that do not exist. You are basically saying "It doesn't say I can't therefore I can" when the MM book is basically off limits to players, even the introduction to the MM states you as the DM, not the player. So if you want your RAW the book basically says that it is for DM's only (since ti addresses to them).

The PHB does reference the MM, as well as the DMG. The reference occurs in Appendix D, where the creature statistics are. To quote:


Statistics for such creatures are grouped
in this appendix for your convenience. For
information on how to read a stat block, see
the Monster Manual.

So not only does the PHB reference the MM, it states that the player should look at it to know how to interpret the information in the statblocks.

Naturally, a player cannot summon a beast that doesn't exist (so no T-rex, no Polymorphed T-rex either, but the DM has to be consistent). However, if the creature exists then the spell can create that form. It also means a DM who creates custom creatures has to keep the statistics of every beast they create that way, because the PC can use the spell to recreate it (Dire Camels, away!).

As for knowledge of the creature, Polymorph has one big advantage over Wild Shape. Druids need to have seen the creature, Polymorph just needs to know about it to decide on it (so a librarian with Polymorph could be the best user as they might know every beast!).

[Grod_The_Giant]

To answer the original question... Yeah, shapeshifting seems kind of nuts this edition. It was already strong, and now you get a huge chunk of temporary HP, too? Dear god, why?

Plus, you know, confusion about what changing mental stats mean, how to adjudicate familiarity, and so on.

[danhass]

Polymorph can be very, very strong. Or it can be pretty gimpy. A lot depends on the DM.

Specifically, when you polymorph someone into a T-Rex (or whatever) "It retains its alignment and personality". But exactly what that means is very much up to the DM. If the DM believes a player is abusing any mechanic he has to do something about it. And exactly what will happen if the bad guys are experienced beast trainer who can turn the T-Rex on the party is the DM's choice.

Alternately, the DM can just run the T-Rex himself since it is no longer technically a PC. And that isn't going to be much fun.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Polymorph can be very, very strong. Or it can be pretty gimpy. A lot depends on the DM.

Specifically, when you polymorph someone into a T-Rex (or whatever) "It retains its alignment and personality". But exactly what that means is very much up to the DM. If the DM believes a player is abusing any mechanic he has to do something about it. And exactly what will happen if the bad guys are experienced beast trainer who can turn the T-Rex on the party is the DM's choice.

Alternately, the DM can just run the T-Rex himself since it is no longer technically a PC. And that isn't going to be much fun.
Oberani fallacy- just because an option can be "fixed" by GM fiat doesn't mean it's not broken in the first place. A vague line that (to me) suggests that the character continues roughly unaltered doesn't really count. If there was a line about being treated as a beast for the purposes of spells and abilities, if there were rules demanding that you make saves in certain circumstances to keep your mind, that would be quite another thing.

And yes, it's not that hard to fix, but... Any time the GM has to take time out of running the game to deal with rules ****, the game has goofed up.

[BiPolar]

Oberani fallacy- just because an option can be "fixed" by GM fiat doesn't mean it's not broken in the first place. A vague line that (to me) suggests that the character continues roughly unaltered doesn't really count. If there was a line about being treated as a beast for the purposes of spells and abilities, if there were rules demanding that you make saves in certain circumstances to keep your mind, that would be quite another thing.

And yes, it's not that hard to fix, but... Any time the GM has to take time out of running the game to deal with rules ****, the game has goofed up.

The way I've played polymorph is that I'm basically a beast. But that I know who my friends because I "retain alignment and personality." For the case of a T-Rex, you're functionally Grimlock from Transformers. You're not smart, but you know who your friends are.

edit: and you can't speak.

[Hudsonian]

My dm ended up running a portion of our campaign in small caves with low cielings... the trex took slashing bludgeonING damage every time he turned because he hit either his head or tail on the wall.

He has also equipped a few traps with dispel magic.

He had one character with a repeating blow dart. 5 concentration checks in a row.

Although, I think the best trick I've seen was to polymorphism the bad guy into a frog and toss it into a bag of holding/portable hole.

[JackPhoenix]

In addition, how do you know elemental/celestial/woodland being types for conjuring if you don't have a MM? Or how do you create undead without the stat block in the MM?

That's why, RAI, it is the DM who chooses what creature you'll get from your summoning. The player is supposed to only choose a number and CR of creatures, though the RAW are a bit unclear in their wording (leading to at least 2 LONG threads and multiple arguments in other threads on this forum alone. This post is just a statement of facts, not an effort to start another argument about this matter). The spell with best control for the conjurer is Conjure Elemental, because you select a cube of material and you'll get an elemental of that material.

[BiPolar]

That's why, RAI, it is the DM who chooses what creature you'll get from your summoning. The player is supposed to only choose a number and CR of creatures, though the RAW are a bit unclear in their wording (leading to at least 2 LONG threads and multiple arguments in other threads on this forum alone. This post is just a statement of facts, not an effort to start another argument about this matter). The spell with best control for the conjurer is Conjure Elemental, because you select a cube of material and you'll get an elemental of that material.

Yeah,I realized after I wrote that I was opening up the whole conjure business. But as RickAllison said above, the PHB tells players to look in the MM. So the argument about players not being allowed or supposed to have access is incorrect.

[Shaofoo]

If that were the case, ShaoFoo, I highly doubt that the Adventurers League would allow beasts from the MM, which they do. They limit what you can choose from the MM, but the MM is still available.

Isn't Adventure's League limited to the monsters that are in the modules that they want or at best the monsters that would feasably appear in the scenario. They limit the MM as you said you can't just pick and choose as you would your own world.


I'm not creating a rule of "It doesn't say I can't, therefore I can't." I'm stating that the limitation that Wild Shape has (must have seen the creature before) does not apply to polymorph. Why? Because it doesn't state it. It ONLY states to pick a BEAST. What's a Beast? Something with the creature type Beast.

I am saying that you are saying "It doesn't say I can't therefore I CAN" (no 't) which you are giving a pretty cut and dry example by saying "Polymorph doesn't have the Wildshape limitation so I can transform into anything in the MM" which is bad logic.


And where in the DMG does it state it isn't for the players?

I would assume a book called DUNGEON MASTER's guide would be self evident like the PLAYER's handbook. Everything in the MM and the DMG is for the DM to decide and the players to accept. But honestly if you read the book you would know that it is talking about rules and options that can only be chosen by the DM, you are free to read the book but as a player you can't suddenly force the DM to choose Spell Point Variants or shorter rest times just because you read it.


In addition, how do you know elemental/celestial/woodland being types for conjuring if you don't have a MM? Or how do you create undead without the stat block in the MM?

The PHB existed before the MM, you can make the game with just the PHB. But to answer your question the DM can create entire creatures of his own accord without help from the MM, he can make up stats for every single creature and type of creature that can exist and you will have no say on the matter. You want to know, ask your DM, he might let you use the MM or he might give you a bunch of monsters that he made up, both are within RAW because it is the DM that has to give you the statistics, not you to pick.


It is ABSOLUTELY FINE to rule against dinosaurs, change their stat blocks, require knowing a beast first, etc. But those are all houserules/DMs world that he has created. Polymorph very simply allows for any Beast within the allowed CR rating.

If you can point to me a rule that says that all creatures are to appear in a standard world then you can call choosing which monsters to appear a house rule because as it stands you are saying that one of the main points of the game is basically a house rule as if there was a RAW World that already exists. You even said that the AL limits certain monsters so you are basically calling the official rulings of the official game society to be house rules (which kinda defeats the meaning of house rules if the main company of D&D says you can do this in their sanctioned games).


The PHB does reference the MM, as well as the DMG. The reference occurs in Appendix D, where the creature statistics are. To quote:



So not only does the PHB reference the MM, it states that the player should look at it to know how to interpret the information in the statblocks.

you still can't pick and choose monsters as you wish. You basically proven my point that players should only look at that part of the book and nowhere else. He shouldn't start flipping through the MM to look at potential Polymorph targets. If you had a spell that said (Look at the MM for stats) ala Summon Monster in the old days then you'd have a point but it actually says in the spells (the DM has the stats) which tells me that the we should look at the DM for the answer, not through the book.

[RickAllison]

you still can't pick and choose monsters as you wish. You basically proven my point that players should only look at that part of the book and nowhere else. He shouldn't start flipping through the MM to look at potential Polymorph targets. If you had a spell that said (Look at the MM for stats) ala Summon Monster in the old days then you'd have a point but it actually says in the spells (the DM has the stats) which tells me that the we should look at the DM for the answer, not through the book.

No one has argued that the DM can't restrict what creatures are available (except AL, where they have specific rules). However, a DM stating that a creature can't be Polymorphed into is saying it doesn't exist. If a custom beast is used and selected for the spell, the player gets to know its exact statistics (as he becomes that beast).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Isn't Adventure's League limited to the monsters that are in the modules that they want or at best the monsters that would feasably appear in the scenario. They limit the MM as you said you can't just pick and choose as you would your own world.

I am saying that you are saying "It doesn't say I can't therefore I CAN" (no 't) which you are giving a pretty cut and dry example by saying "Polymorph doesn't have the Wildshape limitation so I can transform into anything in the MM" which is bad logic.

I would assume a book called DUNGEON MASTER's guide would be self evident like the PLAYER's handbook. Everything in the MM and the DMG is for the DM to decide and the players to accept. But honestly if you read the book you would know that it is talking about rules and options that can only be chosen by the DM, you are free to read the book but as a player you can't suddenly force the DM to choose Spell Point Variants or shorter rest times just because you read it.



The PHB existed before the MM, you can make the game with just the PHB. But to answer your question the DM can create entire creatures of his own accord without help from the MM, he can make up stats for every single creature and type of creature that can exist and you will have no say on the matter. You want to know, ask your DM, he might let you use the MM or he might give you a bunch of monsters that he made up, both are within RAW because it is the DM that has to give you the statistics, not you to pick.



If you can point to me a rule that says that all creatures are to appear in a standard world then you can call choosing which monsters to appear a house rule because as it stands you are saying that one of the main points of the game is basically a house rule as if there was a RAW World that already exists. You even said that the AL limits certain monsters so you are basically calling the official rulings of the official game society to be house rules (which kinda defeats the meaning of house rules if the main company of D&D says you can do this in their sanctioned games).



you still can't pick and choose monsters as you wish. You basically proven my point that players should only look at that part of the book and nowhere else. He shouldn't start flipping through the MM to look at potential Polymorph targets. If you had a spell that said (Look at the MM for stats) ala Summon Monster in the old days then you'd have a point but it actually says in the spells (the DM has the stats) which tells me that the we should look at the DM for the answer, not through the book.
I literally have no idea what you're trying to argue here, aside from your usual apparent stance of "players shouldn't know mechanics." Polymorph just says "Beasts," ergo it can change you into any Beast. There are no rules restricting that. You appear to be saying "well, it doesn't say there isn't a limit." And I'm absolutely baffled by this idea that players can't look at the Monster Manual or DMG. Can the DM not look at the PHB? There are pretty good reasons for players to look at both books-- the former for things like summons and transformations, and the latter for things like magic items and the rules that aren't in the PHB.

[Slipperychicken]

... Am I reading this correctly? Just hit 8th level as a sorcerer and picked polymorph as my spell. I also have the twinned spell metamagic. Am I really able to turn two people in my party into T-Rexes? With 136 bonus hp and 4d12+7/3d8+7 10ft reach attacks with +10 to hit? That feels a little... strong.

For your feat/ASI, you might want to pick up War Caster or Resilient(Constitution). Because if you do this, then you're going to want some very good concentration checks.

After blowing half your sorcery points to turn two of your friends into giant monsters, consider that your contribution to the fight, and try to find somewhere safe to hide. Even if you have good concentration checks, you don't want to unintentionally lose that spell before the fight's over.

[SharkForce]

in any event, sorcerers get few enough tricks, the ones they do have should at least be effective.

[Shaofoo]

No one has argued that the DM can't restrict what creatures are available (except AL, where they have specific rules). However, a DM stating that a creature can't be Polymorphed into is saying it doesn't exist. If a custom beast is used and selected for the spell, the player gets to know its exact statistics (as he becomes that beast).

Another reason is that the players shouldn't know that such a creature exists, if there are no records of dinosaurs then why would the players want to polymorph into something that they shouldn't know exists. This basically turns into the basic definition of a metagaming problem where you use outside knowledge to influence the game choices.

Of course maybe the DM will make it a point for you to learn about dinosaurs if he feels that you shouldn't be so knowledgeable about them.


I literally have no idea what you're trying to argue here, aside from your usual apparent stance of "players shouldn't know mechanics." Polymorph just says "Beasts," ergo it can change you into any Beast. There are no rules restricting that. You appear to be saying "well, it doesn't say there isn't a limit." And I'm absolutely baffled by this idea that players can't look at the Monster Manual or DMG. Can the DM not look at the PHB? There are pretty good reasons for players to look at both books-- the former for things like summons and transformations, and the latter for things like magic items and the rules that aren't in the PHB.

Try "Players should not dictate the game mechanics that are in the realm of DM choice".

Players can look into the DMG and MM to their hearts content, you have the right as a human being to read whatever you want. But as a player you have zero recourse to dictate what exists in the world of the DM and what is allowed or what isn't. T-Rexes don't exist in the world, well tough luck. T-Rexes DO exist but the statistics were changed, tough luck. As a player you can't just say "Ooh btw this kobold carries the Flame Tongue now" or "Yeah, this monster actually deals 2d6 damage, not 3d6" but as a DM you can change the monsters and give them loot and everything that a DM is supposed to do.

So sure, players can read whatever book they want but the DM has final say what actually can happen in the game. Also your last bit on transformations and summons, that is DM dependant to, he can make up the stats as he wants and likewise you have zero recourse. And extra rules, well sure the players should know the rules but they can't dictate what rules actually exist, only the DM can enforce the rules. Or do players say "One hour short rests and spell point variants plus we should find a robe of the archmagi along the way, should be easy to find if Sovereign Glue is also legendary as well".

[BiPolar]

Another reason is that the players shouldn't know that such a creature exists, if there are no records of dinosaurs then why would the players want to polymorph into something that they shouldn't know exists. This basically turns into the basic definition of a metagaming problem where you use outside knowledge to influence the game choices.

Of course maybe the DM will make it a point for you to learn about dinosaurs if he feels that you shouldn't be so knowledgeable about them.



Try "Players should not dictate the game mechanics that are in the realm of DM choice".

Players can look into the DMG and MM to their hearts content, you have the right as a human being to read whatever you want. But as a player you have zero recourse to dictate what exists in the world of the DM and what is allowed or what isn't. T-Rexes don't exist in the world, well tough luck. T-Rexes DO exist but the statistics were changed, tough luck. As a player you can't just say "Ooh btw this kobold carries the Flame Tongue now" or "Yeah, this monster actually deals 2d6 damage, not 3d6" but as a DM you can change the monsters and give them loot and everything that a DM is supposed to do.

So sure, players can read whatever book they want but the DM has final say what actually can happen in the game. Also your last bit on transformations and summons, that is DM dependant to, he can make up the stats as he wants and likewise you have zero recourse. And extra rules, well sure the players should know the rules but they can't dictate what rules actually exist, only the DM can enforce the rules. Or do players say "One hour short rests and spell point variants plus we should find a robe of the archmagi along the way, should be easy to find if Sovereign Glue is also legendary as well".

FFS, Shaofoo. You're getting ridiculous. Let me break it down for you. Again.

1) Polymorph allows for you to pick ANY BEAST. You do not have to have seen it, like Druid Wildshape. At a strict spell level, there are no limitations.
2) DM controls the world. If there are no beasts of a particular type in the world created, then you obviously can not choose them. However, any beast in the DMs world is a possibility.
3) Above is only false if the DM wants to impose their own limits on beast choice. They have the ability and freedom to do this as always.
4) If the DM limits beasts in their world, they should stay consistent and that beast should never show up as an enemy. In addition, any beasts not in the MM, PHB, etc. that DO show up in the world should become options for Polymorph. Unless the DM chooses to arbitrarily limit choices.

(1) is evergreen and the original basis for your Polymorph options
(2) are limitations created by the DM in the creation of their world. This adds to the flavor of Polymorph, but the spell itself does not limit. Only the DM does.

[Shaofoo]

FFS, Shaofoo. You're getting ridiculous. Let me break it down for you. Again.

1) Polymorph allows for you to pick ANY BEAST. You do not have to have seen it, like Druid Wildshape. At a strict spell level, there are no limitations.
2) DM controls the world. If there are no beasts of a particular type in the world created, then you obviously can not choose them. However, any beast in the DMs world is a possibility.
3) Above is only false if the DM wants to impose their own limits on beast choice. They have the ability and freedom to do this as always.
4) If the DM limits beasts in their world, they should stay consistent and that beast should never show up as an enemy. In addition, any beasts not in the MM, PHB, etc. that DO show up in the world should become options for Polymorph. Unless the DM chooses to arbitrarily limit choices.

(1) is evergreen and the original basis for your Polymorph options
(2) are limitations created by the DM in the creation of their world. This adds to the flavor of Polymorph, but the spell itself does not limit. Only the DM does.

So then how would you RP choosing a beast that does exist but a character should not know?

Lets say you wish to be a T-Rex but you neither have seen a T-Rex and all knowledge of T-Rexes is nonexistant in the world (they do exist in a secret lost underground world that the DM plans to put you guys into someday). How would that work? Cause if I was a DM I'd be asking those same questions, because as a table top role playing game I expect players to actually play their characters and not blocks of stats.

How would the spell actually resolve, does the spell actually choose the creature while the character is along for the ride? Does the spell suddenly give the character knowledge of all potential creatures to summon?

[Segev]

Shaofoo, you are once again injecting text that isn't there in order to get the result you want. Nowhere does it say you're limited to what's in the PHB. It does say you can change into a beast.

This is, "It says I can, therefore I can."

You're the one who's insisting that "it doesn't say you can't, but you can't anyway."

Heck, you're actually saying, "It says you can, but you can't anyway."


It's like coming into a restaurant with a coupon for a free soda with your meal. When you try to order a coke, they tell you that you can only have diet soda. Even though the coupon doesn't say the word "diet" anywhere, nor list any limits other than "soda." And then trying to claim that just because it doesn't say you can't have non-diet soda, that doesn't mean you can. Even though it says "soda," and non-diet soda is a soda.

(And before you try to say "but you're still limited to what's on the menu," that's true. But anything with stats defined as "a beast" is on the metaphorical menu in D&D, unless something narrows it. Nothing narrows it in the polymorph spell.)

[BiPolar]

So then how would you RP choosing a beast that does exist but a character should not know?

Lets say you wish to be a T-Rex but you neither have seen a T-Rex and all knowledge of T-Rexes is nonexistant in the world (they do exist in a secret lost underground world that the DM plans to put you guys into someday). How would that work? Cause if I was a DM I'd be asking those same questions, because as a table top role playing game I expect players to actually play their characters and not blocks of stats.

How would the spell actually resolve, does the spell actually choose the creature while the character is along for the ride? Does the spell suddenly give the character knowledge of all potential creatures to summon?

As a DM, you can create whatever world you'd like to create. But the spell is clear in it's language and lack of limitations imposed on feature like Wild Shape that they should have the ability to pick ANY BEAST. It really doesn't get simpler than that.

If a DM wants to make certain things unknown or limit the choices, they absolutely have the freedom to do that. But that is a DM decision and a houserule that changes the spell itself. But at language of the spell, they have the ability to pick any beast within the allowed CR. It doesn't state "known" or "seen". Yes, from an RP perspective that gets squirrely, but these are adventurers. They've read books, heard stories, etc. But if you want to create a world where no one has ever heard of a T-Rex until it is 'discovered', that's your call. But once known, I'd say that the caster can polymorph into it per the rules. Another DM may choose to say no, but that's a houserule, not the mechanics of the spell.

[RickAllison]

Another reason is that the players shouldn't know that such a creature exists, if there are no records of dinosaurs then why would the players want to polymorph into something that they shouldn't know exists. This basically turns into the basic definition of a metagaming problem where you use outside knowledge to influence the game choices.

Of course maybe the DM will make it a point for you to learn about dinosaurs if he feels that you shouldn't be so knowledgeable about them.



Try "Players should not dictate the game mechanics that are in the realm of DM choice".

Players can look into the DMG and MM to their hearts content, you have the right as a human being to read whatever you want. But as a player you have zero recourse to dictate what exists in the world of the DM and what is allowed or what isn't. T-Rexes don't exist in the world, well tough luck. T-Rexes DO exist but the statistics were changed, tough luck. As a player you can't just say "Ooh btw this kobold carries the Flame Tongue now" or "Yeah, this monster actually deals 2d6 damage, not 3d6" but as a DM you can change the monsters and give them loot and everything that a DM is supposed to do.

So sure, players can read whatever book they want but the DM has final say what actually can happen in the game. Also your last bit on transformations and summons, that is DM dependant to, he can make up the stats as he wants and likewise you have zero recourse. And extra rules, well sure the players should know the rules but they can't dictate what rules actually exist, only the DM can enforce the rules. Or do players say "One hour short rests and spell point variants plus we should find a robe of the archmagi along the way, should be easy to find if Sovereign Glue is also legendary as well".

The Straw-man is strong with this one... More seriously:

I never doubted that a PC needed to know. I pick the researcher background, I can research what creatures have existed. Even if I've only encountered them in books, I can use the by Polymorph. You seem to not be getting what is being argued, so I will pare it down to the basics.

1) Does it exist in the DM's world?
2) Has the PC had any recourse (myths, books, actual experience) to have heard of it?
If 1 =! true, 2 necessarily =! true. If 1 = true and 2 = true, the mage can Polymorph with it.

Example 1: Greg the wizard has heard campfire tales growing up of the Loch Ness monster. He has never seen it, but he decides to cast Polymorph on his friend Jeff to see what it looks like, choosing "the Loch Ness monster" as his target beast. If Nessie is a plesiosaur or some other kind of beast, Jeff gets those statistics. Hooray, jubilation, etc. If Nessie doesn't exist or isn't a beast, then the spell fails.

Example 2: Josie has a friend, Elfangor (I'm not good at this!), who deeply misses his old labrador Fido and just wants to see him one more time. Josie secretly Polymorphs herself with the beast "Elfangor's dog Fido" and becomes that dog. She hasn't seen it, but she can choose that by RAW, and will be the spitting image of Fido (though not as he was when he died...). She then gives Elfangor one last moment with his dog.

Example 3: Eric needs something big. He decides to use Polymorph with the target "the largest beast that has ever lived". The DM then gives him the statistics and he assumes the form of the largest elephant, T-rex, sauropod, or some homebrewed creature that has ever existed in his world. He doesn't need to know what that creature looks like or even what it is called, he just has its form and abilities.

[Shaofoo]

Shaofoo, you are once again injecting text that isn't there in order to get the result you want. Nowhere does it say you're limited to what's in the PHB. It does say you can change into a beast.

This is, "It says I can, therefore I can."

You're the one who's insisting that "it doesn't say you can't, but you can't anyway."

Heck, you're actually saying, "It says you can, but you can't anyway."


It's like coming into a restaurant with a coupon for a free soda with your meal. When you try to order a coke, they tell you that you can only have diet soda. Even though the coupon doesn't say the word "diet" anywhere, nor list any limits other than "soda." And then trying to claim that just because it doesn't say you can't have non-diet soda, that doesn't mean you can. Even though it says "soda," and non-diet soda is a soda.

(And before you try to say "but you're still limited to what's on the menu," that's true. But anything with stats defined as "a beast" is on the metaphorical menu in D&D, unless something narrows it. Nothing narrows it in the polymorph spell.)

You are right, nothing prevents it in the Polymorph spell.

Doesn't mean that it gives carte blanche to go rooting in the MM. Especially when the MM says that it should be used as inspiration for DMs, DMs can just copy it as is (like most do I assume) or they can change the stats or omit things.

Try "It says you can but it must be vetted by a third party (DM)"

My main point is in the DM, not what Polymorph says.


As a DM, you can create whatever world you'd like to create. But the spell is clear in it's language and lack of limitations imposed on feature like Wild Shape that they should have the ability to pick ANY BEAST. It really doesn't get simpler than that.

If a DM wants to make certain things unknown or limit the choices, they absolutely have the freedom to do that. But that is a DM decision and a houserule that changes the spell itself. But at language of the spell, they have the ability to pick any beast within the allowed CR. It doesn't state "known" or "seen". Yes, from an RP perspective that gets squirrely, but these are adventurers. They've read books, heard stories, etc. But if you want to create a world where no one has ever heard of a T-Rex until it is 'discovered', that's your call. But once known, I'd say that the caster can polymorph into it per the rules. Another DM may choose to say no, but that's a houserule, not the mechanics of the spell.

There is nothing about the spell itself, it is the choices that you can actually use.

If you are saying that this gives you carte blanche to go into the MM and pick any beast at all then just say that you believe in that. Even when you do admit that basically you are saying that it does create plot holes and using metagame information in your role playing.

If everything is used as written with no deviation then yes you can turn into a T-Rex, the point stands where the DM will allow it in the first place because of the world they are in.


The Straw-man is strong with this one... More seriously:

I never doubted that a PC needed to know. I pick the researcher background, I can research what creatures have existed. Even if I've only encountered them in books, I can use the by Polymorph. You seem to not be getting what is being argued, so I will pare it down to the basics.

1) Does it exist in the DM's world?
2) Has the PC had any recourse (myths, books, actual experience) to have heard of it?
If 1 =! true, 2 necessarily =! true. If 1 = true and 2 = true, the mage can Polymorph with it.

Example 1: Greg the wizard has heard campfire tales growing up of the Loch Ness monster. He has never seen it, but he decides to cast Polymorph on his friend Jeff to see what it looks like, choosing "the Loch Ness monster" as his target beast. If Nessie is a plesiosaur or some other kind of beast, Jeff gets those statistics. Hooray, jubilation, etc. If Nessie doesn't exist or isn't a beast, then the spell fails.

Example 2: Josie has a friend, Elfangor (I'm not good at this!), who deeply misses his old labrador Fido and just wants to see him one more time. Josie secretly Polymorphs herself with the beast "Elfangor's dog Fido" and becomes that dog. She hasn't seen it, but she can choose that by RAW, and will be the spitting image of Fido (though not as he was when he died...). She then gives Elfangor one last moment with his dog.

Example 3: Eric needs something big. He decides to use Polymorph with the target "the largest beast that has ever lived". The DM then gives him the statistics and he assumes the form of the largest elephant, T-rex, sauropod, or some homebrewed creature that has ever existed in his world. He doesn't need to know what that creature looks like or even what it is called, he just has its form and abilities.

First you ignored my complaint, I clearly said what if the character shouldn't know. Saying I make my character into the best zoologist misses the point completely.

Second you also don't say what if 1 is true but 2 is not true even if you are a zoologist.

[BiPolar]

You are right, nothing prevents it in the Polymorph spell.

Doesn't mean that it gives carte blanche to go rooting in the MM. Especially when the MM says that it should be used as inspiration for DMs, DMs can just copy it as is (like most do I assume) or they can change the stats or omit things.

Try "It says you can but it must be vetted by a third party (DM)"

My main point is in the DM, not what Polymorph says.



There is nothing about the spell itself, it is the choices that you can actually use.

If you are saying that this gives you carte blanche to go into the MM and pick any beast at all then just say that you believe in that. Even when you do admit that basically you are saying that it does create plot holes and using metagame information in your role playing.

If everything is used as written with no deviation then yes you can turn into a T-Rex, the point stands where the DM will allow it in the first place because of the world they are in.



First you ignored my complaint, I clearly said what if the character shouldn't know. Saying I make my character into the best zoologist misses the point completely.

Second you also don't say what if 1 is true but 2 is not true even if you are a zoologist.

ShaoFoo, you continue to only look at it this from your perspective that you shouldn't be allowed to do it. Everyone here has covered your concern but also shown that the spell itself does not limit.

Once again, it is as simple this.

YOU CAN PICK ANY BEAST THAT EXISTS IN THE UNIVERSE YOU ARE PLAYING IN

The phrase "Exists in the world you are playing in" covers your concerns. The DM defines the world. If a beast exists in it, one can turn into it. Don't want that to happen? Fine. Just rule it so, but that's a houserule. THERE IS NO RULE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE. In fact, the one rule that COULD apply is to have the same language in Polymorph as that of Wild Shape. BUT IT DOESN'T. THERE IS NO LIMITATION.

I honestly don't know why you are fighting this so hard.

[Grod_The_Giant]

ShaoFoo, you continue to only look at it this from your perspective that you shouldn't be allowed to do it. Everyone here has covered your concern but also shown that the spell itself does not limit.
We're not even arguing that your interpretation is unreasonable. It's a very sensible and probably common ruling. But it's still a RULING. It's not going to be present, much less the same at every table. So when the OP asks "can I really turn two people into dinosaurs," the only answer we can give is "yes," with the unspoken assumption "assuming said rule applies to your game."