Uses for Slots

[Afgncaap5]

I've started playing a Domain Access Sorcerer, and a few questions have come to mind regarding spell slots. Most notably, it appears (if I'm reading everything correctly) that there are some points where a Sorcerer will have spell slots of a given level, but not know any particular spells to go in those slots. I'm reading this properly, yes? Or am I making a mistake?

Assuming this is a proper reading, a level 8 sorcerer would have 3 spell slots for 4th level spells, and a knowledge of 0 4th level spells. Now, the slots are still *there* I assume, yes? Functionally, the most immediate uses I can think of for them would be...

-Spells of lower level when I run out of lower-level spell slots
-Metamagic that boosts spell level up to a higher level

Now, I don't have Metamagic feats yet, and I've also not played once where I've really run out of spell slots that I'd like to use, though I could see it happening. But I was wondering, are there other, more specific, uses to which the slots may be put? For instance, the Barbs of Retribution (MIC pg. 203) allow you to sacrifice a spell slot of second level or higher to force an enemy to reroll a saving throw with a penalty equal to half the level of the spell slot sacrificed. Any reason why I might want to not use said barbs with my 4th level (or higher) spell slots? Well, apart from potential health risks from using the items...

So... yeah. Any other uses to which I could put these 4th level spell slots? Or potential uses for any spell slots in general if I'm ever at level where I just wouldn't know any spells?

[KillingAScarab]

I don't own a copy of Complete Champion, but it seems likely that this alternate class feature would be somewhat similar to the stalwart sorcerer alternate class feature in Complete Mage. From what I have read about it, the swapping of a spell known for a domain spell known doesn't activate until you are a 5th level sorcerer, at which you would normally get another spell known of 2nd level. So, you have not been delayed in knowing to a 2nd level spell, and you shouldn't be delayed in knowing a 3rd level spell, knowing a 4th level spell and so on.

That said, you are correct regarding how higher level spell slots can be utilized, even if you cannot prepare/know spells of that level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots). Unless the alternate class feature reduces your spell slots, you should still receive them.

[Jormengand]

You can prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot.

[ATHATH]

You can prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot.
Do you have a source? I thought that you had to use Heighten Spell for that.

[SedraxisXNG]

I think that's always been the implication. It works like that in every campaign I've played. But without heighten, the spell isn't boosted. It also makes sense that way, making full casters slightly more capable in early-game.

[Jormengand]

Do you have a source? I thought that you had to use Heighten Spell for that.

A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots)

[KillingAScarab]

Do you have a source? I thought that you had to use Heighten Spell for that.Heighten spell just gives you an added benefit for doing so, increasing the save DC being the most applicable case, wearing out spell turning as a niche case.

[Afgncaap5]

I think my favorite use of higher spell slots for lower-level spells was in the Book Of Challenges, which featured a bugbear (or was it hobgoblin?) wizard who ran a magic shoppe, but despite having a few levels in Wizard he only had an intelligence of 11, so he basically had Magic Missile prepared over and over and over, along with some other spells that he could turn into potions in his shoppe (that, due to either his skill in alchemy or his clumsiness with magic, could potentially sicken any non-goblins who tried using them.) I may have a few details wrong here, but that should more or less be it.


I don't own a copy of Complete Champion, but it seems likely that this alternate class feature would be somewhat similar to the stalwart sorcerer alternate class feature in Complete Mage. From what I have read about it, the swapping of a spell known for a domain spell known doesn't activate until you are a 5th level sorcerer, at which you would normally get another spell known of 2nd level. So, you have not been delayed in knowing to a 2nd level spell, and you shouldn't be delayed in knowing a 3rd level spell, knowing a 4th level spell and so on.

That said, you are correct regarding how higher level spell slots can be utilized, even if you cannot prepare/know spells of that level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots). Unless the alternate class feature reduces your spell slots, you should still receive them.

I went to check the Stalwart Sorcerer, but unfortunately the two alternate class features are worded differently. Stalwart Sorcerer specifies that you reduce spells known "to a minimum of one" and that the reduction in known future spells doesn't happen until you would otherwise know a second spell. The Domain Access Sorcerer says, effectively, "from now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level" after waiting for level 5 so that you wouldn't be a sorcerer without spells (fortunately, it specifies that the domain spells you gain from this aren't affected by losing access to spells known.) Thanks for the thought, though, I was hoping you'd spotted something I'd missed.



Meanwhile, I'd thought that I'd remembered the Versatile Spellcasting option and got excited, but it turns out I was mistaken. I thought Versatile Spellcasting from Dragon Magic allowed you to break down higher level spells into lower level ones on the fly, but that isn't a thing now that I look over it. However, I *did* discover Arcane Manipulation in Lost Empires of Faerun today which would pull this off nicely for wizards (and, if I read it properly, other arcane casters who prepare spells who've multiclassed wizard might benefit from it as well.) So... no help for the class I'm interested in, but potentially handy for wizards who ever get into another similarly tricky dilemma (though in their case they can only use the feat thrice daily.)

Another use I recalled, however, came from Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), of all places! If I took a feat to get one of those, I could use the 4th level spell slots (as the "highest" slot) to gain a bonus 2nd level spell. Which isn't amazing, of course, but hey, it's a spell slot I can use in exchange for a spell slot that'll probably not see much action, and it'll grow more useful as a character gains levels. I doubt I'll take it, but worth considering.

[Troacctid]

There are the various Dragon Lineage feats from Dragon Magic, which allow sorcerers to spend a spell slot to activate a special ability that scales with the level of the slot used—essentially like an extra spell known that can be cast at any spell level.

[KillingAScarab]

I think my favorite use of higher spell slots for lower-level spells was in the Book Of Challenges, which featured a bugbear (or was it hobgoblin?) wizard who ran a magic shoppe, but despite having a few levels in Wizard he only had an intelligence of 11, so he basically had Magic Missile prepared over and over and over, along with some other spells that he could turn into potions in his shoppe (that, due to either his skill in alchemy or his clumsiness with magic, could potentially sicken any non-goblins who tried using them.) I may have a few details wrong here, but that should more or less be it.This is the kind of character I was thinking would have shown up in the comic by now. Perhaps if the goblin "wizard" from Start of Darkness ever returned.


I went to check the Stalwart Sorcerer, but unfortunately the two alternate class features are worded differently. Stalwart Sorcerer specifies that you reduce spells known "to a minimum of one" and that the reduction in known future spells doesn't happen until you would otherwise know a second spell. The Domain Access Sorcerer says, effectively, "from now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level" after waiting for level 5 so that you wouldn't be a sorcerer without spells (fortunately, it specifies that the domain spells you gain from this aren't affected by losing access to spells known.) Thanks for the thought, though, I was hoping you'd spotted something I'd missed.Huh. And there wasn't anything about it in the errata for the book? I see that it received some (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata).

[Afgncaap5]

This is the kind of character I was thinking would have shown up in the comic by now. Perhaps if the goblin "wizard" from Start of Darkness ever returned.

Huh. And there wasn't anything about it in the errata for the book? I see that it received some (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata).

Ah! Now I know where all the errata comes from. I'll have to download many of these, I think. Thanks!

Downloading the one in question, though, it doesn't look like it. It jumps straight from the Holy Stalker on page 51 to the Domain Granted Power on page 52. Apparently, where the Sorcerer's divine connections are concerned, they were under the impression that they nailed it.

And, well, while I'd like some errata there, I'm generally happy with the sorcerer as I'm reading it. This "0 spells known" for certain levels thing is more humorous than hindering. A single use of the domain spells per day isn't an amazing trade, but it's definitely story appropriate for this character.