Samurai / Iajutsu Master (Looking for Advice)

[JamesT]

I put this together tonight. It's a Samurai that uses the Fighter as his base class, and this is for 5e. Please help me balance this - I would appreciate any advice you guys can offer!

New Weapons:
Katana – Finesse Melee Weapon, 1d8 damage (Refluffed Rapier)
Wakizashi – Finesse and Light Melee Weapon, 1d6 damage (Refluffed Short Sword)


New Fighter Features:
Additional Fighting Style – Samurai: When wielding a samurai weapon (katana, wazukashi) in one hand and no other weapon nor a shield, you get a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon, a +1 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Dexterity saves.

Ancestral Weapon: All Samurai begin play with an ancestral weapon – either a Katana or Wakizashi. These are weapons that belonged to the samurai’s ancestors, and protecting the weapons is an important point of honor for the samurai. As a samurai acquires treasure through adventuring, he has the option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the weapons. This weapon will be a magical weapon and is dependent on the campaign level and DM discretion. It will increase in magical enhancement as the DM decides during a campaign.


New Fighter Archetype: Iajutsu Master:

Iajutsu Strike (3rd Level): When an Iajutsu Master draws his weapon and attacks, he receives a 1d6 bonus to his damage for that attack. This bonus increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter (2d6 at 6th level, 3d6 at 9th level to a maximum of of 6d6 at 18th level.

Lightning Blade (7th Level): An Iajutsu Master adds his Charisma Modifier to his initiative checks, as well as his Dexterity modifier.

Iajutsu Duel (10th Level): If you begin combat with no weapon drawn, you can compel one hostile creature to fight you and only you. As a bonus action, you can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check contested by the creature’s Wisdom (Insight) check. If you succeed, the creature has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you. The effect lasts for one minute, until one of your companions attacks the target or until you and the target are more than 60 feet apart.

Improved Samurai Fighting Style (15th Level): An Iajutsu Master may either choose an additional Fighting Style from the class feature list or improve his Samurai Fighting Style bonuses to +3 damage and +2 AC.

[Togath]

What system is for this? 3.5? or PF?

[Durazno]

I like where you're going with this! I just have a few suggestions.

I'm assuming this is a 5e subclass? Is it possible to get the thread tagged for that?

"Daisho" (literally big-little) is the name for the set of two swords that marked a person as a samurai. If you only want to give them one or the other, the class ability should probably have a different name. Even just "Ancestral Weapon" would work.

I appreciate that you limit the fighting style to wielding a single weapon, probably to avoid turning every single samurai into Miyamoto Musashi? It would probably make more sense to reward two-handing a katana, though, since that's what they're made for.

Leaving the magical-weapon status of the ancestral sword entirely up to the DM might be an issue. I'm not sure how you can handle this in 5e, though. Perhaps wielding their ancestral sword could give them an attack roll bonus (starting at 0 and maxing at +3 around level 15, maybe) that doesn't stack with any enchantment bonuses their sword might get?

Iajutsu Strike seems a little weak at the moment, being a small, highly-situational bonus that you can only benefit from once in a fight. Maybe the samurai could get a reserve of superiority dice that they can spend to improve the damage of successful first attacks?

[JamesT]

Updated top post as this is for 5e.

[JamesT]

I like where you're going with this! I just have a few suggestions.

I'm assuming this is a 5e subclass? Is it possible to get the thread tagged for that?

"Daisho" (literally big-little) is the name for the set of two swords that marked a person as a samurai. If you only want to give them one or the other, the class ability should probably have a different name. Even just "Ancestral Weapon" would work.

I appreciate that you limit the fighting style to wielding a single weapon, probably to avoid turning every single samurai into Miyamoto Musashi? It would probably make more sense to reward two-handing a katana, though, since that's what they're made for.

Leaving the magical-weapon status of the ancestral sword entirely up to the DM might be an issue. I'm not sure how you can handle this in 5e, though. Perhaps wielding their ancestral sword could give them an attack roll bonus (starting at 0 and maxing at +3 around level 15, maybe) that doesn't stack with any enchantment bonuses their sword might get?

Iajutsu Strike seems a little weak at the moment, being a small, highly-situational bonus that you can only benefit from once in a fight. Maybe the samurai could get a reserve of superiority dice that they can spend to improve the damage of successful first attacks?

Thanks. I fixed the name to ancestral weapon as you suggested.

To give a 2h bonus for wielding the Katana, I could make it versatile (1d10 for 2h use) and expand the Samurai fighting feat to wielding a Samurai 1h or 2h. Would that be okay and not overpowered?

For the magical weapon part, I'm not really seeing this as a feature - just refluffing whatever magic weapons the DM would hand out to instead apply to my sword, so I can keep the ancestral sword with me all game and upgrade it.

I agree that Iajutsu Strike might not be presented all that great as I have it, but I'm not sure how to fix it yet - any suggestions would be welcome.

Thanks!

[Final Hyena]

New Fighter Features:
Additional Fighting Style – Samurai: When wielding a samurai weapon (katana, wazukashi) in one hand and no other weapon nor a shield, you get a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon and a +1 bonus to AC.

If you compare this to the standard sword and board who gets +2 damage and a shield giving +2 ac that is stronger. Yes you have a free hand if you need to pick up a mcguffin, but the +1 ac is better most of the time.

I feel he needs a little more, perhaps not a full +1 extra ac, but something. Maybe +1 Dex saves?

[JamesT]

If you compare this to the standard sword and board who gets +2 damage and a shield giving +2 ac that is stronger. Yes you have a free hand if you need to pick up a mcguffin, but the +1 ac is better most of the time.

I feel he needs a little more, perhaps not a full +1 extra ac, but something. Maybe +1 Dex saves?

That would work. Thanks. :)

[Final Hyena]

That would work. Thanks. :)
You're welcome, I do feel that the feature;

New Fighter Archetype: Iajutsu Master:
Lightning Blade (3rd Level): An Iajutsu Master adds his Charisma Modifier to his initiative checks, as well as his Dexterity modifier.
Isn't as good as superiority dice, it needs a little extra as to what I'm drawing blanks.
Also the name doesn't quite match the ability. Why does charisma make you faster? Perhaps change the name to perceptive mind/blade. Because you are reading a situation and so are faster to act.
The archetype seems based on the older samurai classes where sheathing your sword is big deal and so the way abilities are only at the start of an encounter is weird and might cause people to ask why, and beside balance there is little reason. To be fair Ranger colossus slayer is no different.

[Professor Gnoll]

Basically, Iajutsu strike is pretty weak and scales terribly. It could probably do with dealing significantly more damage and perhaps having an additional effect.
If it works every time you attack from sheathing, it would need to be much more powerful, because you can't sheathe your sword and draw it in the same turn (without Action Surge.) So it'd need to be as good as two whole turns of attacking.

[JamesT]

You're welcome, I do feel that the feature;

Isn't as good as superiority dice, it needs a little extra as to what I'm drawing blanks.
Also the name doesn't quite match the ability. Why does charisma make you faster? Perhaps change the name to perceptive mind/blade. Because you are reading a situation and so are faster to act.
The archetype seems based on the older samurai classes where sheathing your sword is big deal and so the way abilities are only at the start of an encounter is weird and might cause people to ask why, and beside balance there is little reason. To be fair Ranger colossus slayer is no different.

It uses Charisma because I couldn't think of a better skill to use. Intelligence? Wisdom? Oriental Adventures from 3E had a similar ability that used Charisma, and I used that as a basis for many of these abilities.



Basically, Iajutsu strike is pretty weak and scales terribly. It could probably do with dealing significantly more damage and perhaps having an additional effect.
If it works every time you attack from sheathing, it would need to be much more powerful, because you can't sheathe your sword and draw it in the same turn (without Action Surge.) So it'd need to be as good as two whole turns of attacking.

I will make that change my focus - I think the rest of this is pretty good.

Thanks, guys.

[JamesT]

Basically, Iajutsu strike is pretty weak and scales terribly. It could probably do with dealing significantly more damage and perhaps having an additional effect.
If it works every time you attack from sheathing, it would need to be much more powerful, because you can't sheathe your sword and draw it in the same turn (without Action Surge.) So it'd need to be as good as two whole turns of attacking.

Don't forget that it works for all attacks made in a round in which you unsheathed your weapon. Would a +2 to attack and damage rolls that round be enough? +3?

Or maybe I could make it a big bonus to just the first attack he makes while unsheathing? It would have to be pretty big though... +5 to both? Or +5 to hit, +10 damage? Maybe just a flat damage bonus?

Another option would be to allow the Samurai to sheath his weapon at the end of every round, allowing a bonus once per round. I think that might get a little silly though.

[Composer99]

IMO katana is better as a refluffed longsword rather than a refluffed rapier.

[JamesT]

IMO katana is better as a refluffed longsword rather than a refluffed rapier.

I see it as a finesse weapon

[Professor Gnoll]

Don't forget that it works for all attacks made in a round in which you unsheathed your weapon. Would a +2 to attack and damage rolls that round be enough? +3?

Or maybe I could make it a big bonus to just the first attack he makes while unsheathing? It would have to be pretty big though... +5 to both? Or +5 to hit, +10 damage? Maybe just a flat damage bonus?

Another option would be to allow the Samurai to sheath his weapon at the end of every round, allowing a bonus once per round. I think that might get a little silly though.
But compare even +10 damage to the most famous Alpha Striker, the Assassin. At level 10, their big first-round ultra attack deals an additional 10D6 damage, and you get to add your weapon dice again. While you probably don't want to usurp the Assassin's role as the 'big first-round damage dealer' I think it becomes clear to see that Iaijutsu is pretty weak compared to that. Even if you use up your Action Surge to perform four attacks, by the current numbers you're dealing a terrifying.... four extra damage. That's less than a single power attack.
It could get a little silly, but... you could work with the idea of sheathing your sword all the time, so you're only actually attacking every second round. It'd be weird, and kind of dumb, but also kind of cool. If you maybe worked in something like the Rogue's Cunning Action or Battlemaster manoeuvres to give you something to do in your 'off-rounds'....
If nothing else, it would certainly give it a unique flavour.

[Pyon]

Oh oh oh! Might I add an idea? There is a common trope with the samurai sheathing type characters in shows. Maybe an ability that after sheathing your sword in combat, a single enemy you attacked takes a massive amount of damage based on the times you hit it? This would have to be limited to a certain amount of times per day, but it would be cool and flavorful for sure.

[Professor Gnoll]

Oh oh oh! Might I add an idea? There is a common trope with the samurai sheathing type characters in shows. Maybe an ability that after sheathing your sword in combat, a single enemy you attacked takes a massive amount of damage based on the times you hit it? This would have to be limited to a certain amount of times per day, but it would be cool and flavorful for sure.
Like the thing where they perform the single cut, sheathe, and then a thousand cuts are revealed? That's super cool. Call it something along the lines of senbongiri.

[JamesT]

I'm going to make Iajutsu Strike into a scaling damage ability starting at level 3 and move Lightning Blade to 7th level.

Don't forget I can draw weapon and attack round 1. Attack and sheath round 2. Draw and attack round 3 and so on.

[JamesT]

Oh oh oh! Might I add an idea? There is a common trope with the samurai sheathing type characters in shows. Maybe an ability that after sheathing your sword in combat, a single enemy you attacked takes a massive amount of damage based on the times you hit it? This would have to be limited to a certain amount of times per day, but it would be cool and flavorful for sure.

It sounds cool but I think it's getting a little overly complicated for my taste. I don't want to get lost in further mechanics - really need to work on the RP aspects of my character, which is what really matters. :)

[Durazno]

The DMG suggests that katana be refluffed longswords, if I remember right. I think that making them versatile would be a good idea.

I had the notion that the samurai style could work with versatile weapons, giving you one bonus if you're one-handing them, and another bonus if you're wielding them in two hands, but I'm not sure how you'd track that.

[Pyon]

The DMG suggests that katana be refluffed longswords, if I remember right. I think that making them versatile would be a good idea.

I had the notion that the samurai style could work with versatile weapons, giving you one bonus if you're one-handing them, and another bonus if you're wielding them in two hands, but I'm not sure how you'd track that.

With a stance system. At the start of your turn you declare in which stance you are in, with some Japanese sounding stances. One gives you bonus damage, the other gives you bonus AC? That would deviate too much from the original class the OP is making though.

To be honest OP, I think this could use a lot of work as Gnoll said it looks underpowered. There are a lot of samurai subclasses for 5e out already, and this one isn't much better than any of them. However, I really like the idea of lightning blade even if I don't think Charisma is the most flavorful stat for a samurai.

[JacobTheAussie]

My main question would be... why not simply reskin the SCAG Rogue Swashbuckler?

CHR to Initiative, Sneak attack when attacking one on one, finesse weapon for the Rapier re-skin

[Professor Gnoll]

My main question would be... why not simply reskin the SCAG Rogue Swashbuckler?

CHR to Initiative, Sneak attack when attacking one on one, finesse weapon for the Rapier re-skin
Because the coolest, most iconic part of the Iaijutsu master is the unsheathing attack. A lightning fast draw, a flashing blow that immediately slays the opponent, and the sword is sheathed before anyone even sees what happened.
The swashbuckler is more of a manoeuvrable 'death of a thousand cuts' type that dances out of reach while delivering small, stinging blows. Which is still cool, but a different sort of archetype.

[JacobTheAussie]

I get that, but assuming that you took the fluff away from the Swashbuckler and looked at its from the rules perspective what is being described is very similar.

[Professor Gnoll]

I get that, but assuming that you took the fluff away from the Swashbuckler and looked at its from the rules perspective what is being described is very similar.
It is, but is lacking in the draw attack idea and also doesn't quite have the damage output to match a swordmaster ideal, being a rogue who is naturally drawn to stealth and skillmonkey-ism.

[Sicarius Victis]

A katana is a longsword, not a rapier. It's not exactly easy to use one with finesse unless you're trained to. Perhaps that would be an interesting part to the fighting style, allowing you to use the weapon as finesse. Also, why do they add CHARISMA to initiative? Iajutsu is not about Charisma. Intelligence is the best fit there. Actually, that would be a decent use for the fighting style as well, allowing you to use Intelligence instead of Strength or Dexterity for your weapons. As it is, the fighting style feels like it has a bit too much to it. Also, how does the "start with an ancestral weapon" thing work? Since Samurai would be a 3rd-level choice, they couldn't exactly start play with it, unless they started at a higher level. It couldn't be part of their fighting style, because that just doesn't make sense.

[Arkhios]

New Fighter Features:
Additional Fighting Style – Samurai: When wielding a samurai weapon (katana, wazukashi) in one hand and no other weapon nor a shield, you get a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon, a +1 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to Dexterity saves.

I believe you have typo there. Or what the heck is wazukashi? :P


Also, I would actually second that Katana is a longsword. Only reason I could think of Katana being seen as finesse weapon is because of ninjas. But, aren't ninjas incredible climbers and jumpers? Climbing and Jumping takes a lot of strength, so it would be fitting that even ninjas have high strength (therefore making a finessable katana somewhat redundant; likewise, Katana is too long weapon to be practical in sneak attacks, wakizashi is better for those.)

[Durazno]

A katana makes sense as a finesse weapon because it's designed to make precise cuts and requires a very specialized technique to swing properly. If you rely on brute force when wielding one, it would break before too long.

[Professor Gnoll]

A katana makes sense as a finesse weapon because it's designed to make precise cuts and requires a very specialized technique to swing properly. If you rely on brute force when wielding one, it would break before too long.
This... isn't really true. It's no more 'precise' than, say, a European hand-and-a-half sword would be, and the 'specialised technique' used is fairly standard practice when wielding a cutting weapon. (You can even apply the same principles to, say, cutting vegetables.)
The myth of the katana as more fine, elegant and precise than a European sword is widespread, but doesn't really pan out all that well.
But as for representing it in D&D? Well, in reality, speed, strength and precision are all concerns when handling a sword, but only STR or DEX are used for an attack. I would not really see a problem with allowing either one to be used in this case- perhaps thinking of it as representing different fighting styles.

[DeadpanSal]

I really want an ability like what Pyon said. I was thinking of having some sort of follow up that causes that an explosion of blood after you use it. (I'm thinking of fights with Byakuya before you see what his attack really does or The Bride's attack in Kill Bill where she strikes the hilt of her sword.) How about something like just giving your sword its own progression? I had a samurai in a gestalt campaign that used a weapon of legacy that was really great. The idea of unlocking abilities within your sword that levels up with you is a pretty good idea for flavor all around, and might translate a little better than Ancestral Weapon does as of now.

My first idea, obviously is to have the sword gain spellstoring at a certain point. Gaining rerolls or advantage in scenarios could fit too. Or unlocking specific attack maneuvers. You can also do cool things with the rituals to unlock those as 3.5's Weapons of Legacy defined, like roleplaying events - speak to the previous wielder of the sword, kill an ogre in single combat on the full moon without using potions, rub your head against the roof for 500 feet... I dunno, make something up.

[Durazno]

In fairness, I could buy hand-and-a-half swords as finesse weapons, too.