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Giant2005
2016-04-12, 05:43 AM
My group never seems to take a short rest, yet it isn't the game's fault.
Even after expending all of their resources that recharge on short rests, and even being below half hit points, the short rest guys reject all offers for a short rest. They simply have too much pride to admit to the other characters that they need a breather and would rather risk their lives than put themselves in a position to seem like the weakest link.
Am I in a group full of unnaturally proud players, or do other groups experience a similar issue?

hymer
2016-04-12, 05:48 AM
I've seen similar issues, though pride wouldn't be the cause. More like narrative dissonance. I've started talking about rumbling tummies and aching feet, and I hope the players will take that up to signal the need for a break. And I try to narratively tone down the entire hour the break takes. I may decide in my next campaign to have short rests take an unspecified time between fifteen and sixty minutes, depending on the situation.

SMac8988
2016-04-12, 05:52 AM
I DM a regular group and they are the exact opposite. They short rest like constantly. I currently have them ding a 5 part trails like quest, which was meant to happen like straight through, and they are stopping after each part, and taking short to long rests.

To maintain the difficulty I wanted I had to ramp up the mobs they ran into, since they would enter locations meant for wounded players at full hp, and spell slots.

I feel if you group isn't using them, like at all, you could either start without them and show if your the right class, how helpful it is. But if the DM is building based off the group running through it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-04-12, 05:54 AM
I've started talking about rumbling tummies and aching feet, and I hope the players will take that up to signal the need for a break.

I've done this as well. Especially when there are NPCs around, who will want to break for lunch regardless of what the PCs do.

Arial Black
2016-04-12, 06:01 AM
My group never seems to take a short rest, yet it isn't the game's fault.
Even after expending all of their resources that recharge on short rests, and even being below half hit points, the short rest guys reject all offers for a short rest. They simply have too much pride to admit to the other characters that they need a breather and would rather risk their lives than put themselves in a position to seem like the weakest link.
Am I in a group full of unnaturally proud players, or do other groups experience a similar issue?

Based on the content of your post, the title of this thread should've been, "My Problem With My Players". The short rest mechanic seems to be working perfectly, but your players are choosing not to take short rests.

You could change the duration of a short rest (the DMG suggests 5 minutes), or you could let 'evolution by TPK' sort it out.

goto124
2016-04-12, 06:07 AM
Isn't there a long rest variant rule as well?

Malifice
2016-04-12, 07:44 AM
I DM a regular group and they are the exact opposite. They short rest like constantly. I currently have them ding a 5 part trails like quest, which was meant to happen like straight through, and they are stopping after each part, and taking short to long rests.

To maintain the difficulty I wanted I had to ramp up the mobs they ran into, since they would enter locations meant for wounded players at full hp, and spell slots.

I feel if you group isn't using them, like at all, you could either start without them and show if your the right class, how helpful it is. But if the DM is building based off the group running through it shouldn't be a huge problem.

Next time include a time limit for the quest. 'Demon gets released at midnight/ Princess gets sacrificed/ You get paid double if you do it before your employer leaves for Waterdeep/ The BBEG moves the macguffinin the morning' etc etc etc.

Give them like 8 hours to complete the mission (after a long rest) Within that paradigm they have to travel for like 4 hours, giving them up to 3 short rests max (maybe less if they go slow). Within those constraints theyre free to approach the quest however they want.

It'll add a whole new dimension to the game, and take a weight off your shoulders as DM.

Do this for about 50 percent of your adventures. Never in real life do you have all the time in the world to do a task. Doesnt happen in fiction either - the characters are always under a time constraint. It adds to the dramatic tension and (when done right) enhances the reality of your game world.

As a massive bonus it also mechanically balances the game.

Slipperychicken
2016-04-12, 08:58 AM
I think they made short rests far too long. They should be at most 15 minutes, or as low as 5 minutes. Either that, or adventurers need a strong union to ensure they get a pair of hour-long meal breaks each day.


In terms of fluff, it's a huge disconnect. I'm supposed to be playing a fantasy hero. The kind of guy who chews through several dozen strong knights on his way to pick his kids up from school. I can't imagine him deciding, especially not midway through some great trial, to take a leisurely hour-long lunch break because the last bunch of nameless enemies wore him out a bit. And certainly not begging his companions to please, please let him have this absolutely necessary lunch break before they press onward to battle the forces of darkness.

Democratus
2016-04-12, 09:14 AM
Yeah. There's certainly no foundational work of fantasy literature where the characters discuss breakfast, second breakfast, or elevenses. :smalltongue:

hymer
2016-04-12, 09:33 AM
Yeah. There's certainly no foundational work of fantasy literature where the characters discuss breakfast, second breakfast, or elevenses. :smalltongue:

Bringing it up has a lot to do with showing how the Hobbits can go without it when required. It's no great hardship on Aragorn or Boromir to forego a meal, but with a Hobbit it shows something has changed in him, especially if he does it without complaint.
There is the occasional pause near danger to munch a lembas wafer (IIRC after escaping the Uruk-hai, and again at the top of the Tower of Cirith Ungol), but these are after the worst danger has passed, where short rests tend to be before any final boss. And they don't last a whole hour in LotR.

DigoDragon
2016-04-12, 09:33 AM
I DM a regular group and they are the exact opposite. They short rest like constantly.

I have a group that is like this, though probably not in such an extreme way. They make full use of short rest mechanics and ritual casting, but I enforce that time passes them at a quick pace if they do so to maintain that balance of time taken versus deadlines met.

Segev
2016-04-12, 09:39 AM
Don't phrase it as "you're weak so you need to rest." Give opportunities to rest in general. Also, don't hold back just because they go into things weakened when they didn't have to. Who is offering the rests? You, or the other PCs? If it's you, present it as "when you break for lunch" (and start making everybody suffer the "hunger pangs" if they won't, because hey, this is high physical activity and it will make you hungry)! If it's the other PCs, talk to their players about the problem.

Heck, do so anyway. Find out WHY the short rest players won't take the short rests offered.


I DM a regular group and they are the exact opposite. They short rest like constantly. I currently have them ding a 5 part trails like quest, which was meant to happen like straight through, and they are stopping after each part, and taking short to long rests.

To maintain the difficulty I wanted I had to ramp up the mobs they ran into, since they would enter locations meant for wounded players at full hp, and spell slots.
As another person said, you should not let them short rest that much. Not by DM cruelty, but simply by not making them have TIME to wait before going into the next area. If they wait, they arrive too late. Alternatively, make resting dangerous; random encounters exist for a reason. It doesn't have to be insanely so, but if they don't properly secure an area, they'll find it interrupted and wind up fighting weakened anyway.

SMac8988
2016-04-12, 10:12 AM
Don't phrase it as "you're weak so you need to rest." Give opportunities to rest in general. Also, don't hold back just because they go into things weakened when they didn't have to. Who is offering the rests? You, or the other PCs? If it's you, present it as "when you break for lunch" (and start making everybody suffer the "hunger pangs" if they won't, because hey, this is high physical activity and it will make you hungry)! If it's the other PCs, talk to their players about the problem.

Heck, do so anyway. Find out WHY the short rest players won't take the short rests offered.


As another person said, you should not let them short rest that much. Not by DM cruelty, but simply by not making them have TIME to wait before going into the next area. If they wait, they arrive too late. Alternatively, make resting dangerous; random encounters exist for a reason. It doesn't have to be insanely so, but if they don't properly secure an area, they'll find it interrupted and wind up fighting weakened anyway.

Oh I already put that in play. One of that characters love interest is going have been kidnapped and being prepped for abrasive now. If they hurried they could have stopped them from killing her, but now they will arrive just in time to watch her get impaled and die.

Segev
2016-04-12, 10:23 AM
Oh I already put that in play. One of that characters love interest is going have been kidnapped and being prepped for abrasive now. If they hurried they could have stopped them from killing her, but now they will arrive just in time to watch her get impaled and die.

I suggest taking it a step further. If they arrive "just in time to see her die," then it still feels like it's moving in RPG time. Better to have a specific time when her death occurs, and just track how long the party takes to get there. So they could arrive and she was killed half an hour ago, for example. (This would be especially pointed, because an hour is how long a short rest takes. If they'd taken just one fewer...)

Edit: But you CANNOT cheat on this, and make it RPG time that they're too late because they did it more times than you'd like. It feels like DM punishment, then, not like a lesson learned. They now have to guess how many short rests you want them to take. If it's a fixed time, though, then what they have to do is figure out when that time is...or guess. But they don't have to read your mind about your intent.

This could be hard to pull off here, because you've already gotten past the point where making the choice of "when" is independent of how many short rests they take. You know how many they took, so your choice is whether she's alive or dead when they get there, anyway. But for future events, I suggest being specific about timing. Know what it will be, and don't move it based on player actions. If they arrive early or on time, great; if they don't...well, they don't.

Giant2005
2016-04-12, 10:26 AM
Don't phrase it as "you're weak so you need to rest." Give opportunities to rest in general. Also, don't hold back just because they go into things weakened when they didn't have to. Who is offering the rests? You, or the other PCs? If it's you, present it as "when you break for lunch" (and start making everybody suffer the "hunger pangs" if they won't, because hey, this is high physical activity and it will make you hungry)! If it's the other PCs, talk to their players about the problem.

I am a PC in the game. I am playing a Wizard that is starting to feel sorry for the Warlock that doesn't want to rest.

Segev
2016-04-12, 10:30 AM
I am a PC in the game. I am playing a Wizard that is starting to feel sorry for the Warlock that doesn't want to rest.

Well, you can push the issue by insisting on it, yourself.

Option 1 (works 1/day): "I need an hour to refresh some of my arcane energies. We're resting, darn it." Use your Arcane Recovery over this short rest.

Option 2 (self-effacing, and lying to preserve their pride): "I'm tired. We're stopping. I don't have your stamina, sorry. I need. to. rest." Optionally: "I'm casting rope trick now. We're using it to rest, or you're going on without me, because I'm casting it and I won't have my spell slot wasted."

Option 3 (honest, a bit confrontational): "Look. You're no good to me like this. I need you at the top of your game. The PARTY needs you at the top of your game. We're resting for an hour, and you're recovering your ability to call upon your patron's power. Because if you're pushing on, weaker than you could be, for nothing but a macho image, you're hurting all of us. Stop being selfish and pull your darned weight."

Giant2005
2016-04-12, 10:37 AM
Well, you can push the issue by insisting on it, yourself.

Option 1 (works 1/day): "I need an hour to refresh some of my arcane energies. We're resting, darn it." Use your Arcane Recovery over this short rest.

Option 2 (self-effacing, and lying to preserve their pride): "I'm tired. We're stopping. I don't have your stamina, sorry. I need. to. rest." Optionally: "I'm casting rope trick now. We're using it to rest, or you're going on without me, because I'm casting it and I won't have my spell slot wasted."

Option 3 (honest, a bit confrontational): "Look. You're no good to me like this. I need you at the top of your game. The PARTY needs you at the top of your game. We're resting for an hour, and you're recovering your ability to call upon your patron's power. Because if you're pushing on, weaker than you could be, for nothing but a macho image, you're hurting all of us. Stop being selfish and pull your darned weight."

The problem with those options that as a player I feel bad for the Warlock, but my character doesn't have much in the way of empathy. He is willing to take a look at the Warlock panting away with their spent magical energies and then offer a short breather, but after having that offer rejected he couldn't care less. He is more likely to say "suit yourself" and then probably push ahead more than he otherwise would just so he can see the Warlock's pride collapse with him in a crumbled mess of exhaustion.

Malifice
2016-04-12, 10:38 AM
Bringing it up has a lot to do with showing how the Hobbits can go without it when required. It's no great hardship on Aragorn or Boromir to forego a meal, but with a Hobbit it shows something has changed in him, especially if he does it without complaint.

Boromir is a Champion. Other than Action surge, he's fine to go all day long without a short rest. Aragorn is a ranger. Literally none of his class features key off a short rest either. Same deal with Gandalf.

Technically the Hobbits are likely Rogues, so they dont need to short rest either, aside to heal.

If only they had a battlemaster, monk or warlock in the party. Then you would see some frequent short stop overs..

Keltest
2016-04-12, 10:52 AM
Boromir is a Champion. Other than Action surge, he's fine to go all day long without a short rest. Aragorn is a ranger. Literally none of his class features key off a short rest either. Same deal with Gandalf.

Technically the Hobbits are likely Rogues, so they dont need to short rest either, aside to heal.

If only they had a battlemaster, monk or warlock in the party. Then you would see some frequent short stop overs..

My recollection is that, unless there is some time constrained goal theyre pursuing, like chasing the hobbits when they've been captured, the Fellowship does stop a couple times a day for the equivalent of a short rest. Not to recharge their mechanics, but because theyre hungry and need to eat. Frodo and Sam, in particular, stop to rest frequently in Mordor, because travel there well and truly sucks.

Trasilor
2016-04-12, 12:01 PM
The problem I have with a short rest is that my sorcerer rarely benefits from them. I play in a large, melee focused party - my sorcerer is really the only ranged combatant. As such, I rarely get damaged and don't need the HP recovery from the short rest.

JoeJ
2016-04-12, 12:04 PM
There is the occasional pause near danger to munch a lembas wafer (IIRC after escaping the Uruk-hai, and again at the top of the Tower of Cirith Ungol), but these are after the worst danger has passed, where short rests tend to be before any final boss.

That's a pretty noble BBEG, letting the PCs get all rested up before they try to murder him.

Telok
2016-04-12, 12:49 PM
Part of the issue with short rests is that they can have very different effects (story wise, not mechanically) depending on whether or not a particular game is moving at the speed of time or the speed of plot.

For example, in one game the party was resting in a small dwarven outpost that was attacked at night. Two characters hopped up, grabbed weapons and shields, beat off the invaders who had made it to the dorms, then raced off to help secure the front gate. The rest of the party stopped to put on heavy armor, cast detect magic, loot bodies, and then walked to the front gate. Everyone arrived at the front gate at the same time. That was a game that moved at the speed of plot.

In a different game the heroes discovered plans for an immenent attack on a frontier fort. The attack was scheduled for a particular time and the distances had been set up so that if the party force marched a few extra hours they would arrive at the fort a few hours before the attack. Instead of pushing on to the fort the party stopped to rest overnight. The attack occured at the scheduled time and the fort was destroyed. That was a game that moved at the speed of time.

The short rest mechanic interacts differently with these two types of game, and the players react to the two types of game differently. But the players need to know what type of game you run and they need to know if you switch gears.

Slipperychicken
2016-04-12, 12:50 PM
That's a pretty noble BBEG, letting the PCs get all rested up before they try to murder him.

It's kind of like how video-game bosses will politely decorate the hallways leading to their chambers with ammunition, health items, and a save-point. It's just common courtesy, you know?

Kryx
2016-04-12, 01:13 PM
I highly recommend shortening a short rest to 5 mins and limiting them to twice a long rest.

It solves nearly all the problems discussed above. Proud characters can take 5 mins to patch up wounds and rest for a bit.

JackPhoenix
2016-04-12, 01:17 PM
My recollection is that, unless there is some time constrained goal theyre pursuing, like chasing the hobbits when they've been captured, the Fellowship does stop a couple times a day for the equivalent of a short rest. Not to recharge their mechanics, but because theyre hungry and need to eat. Frodo and Sam, in particular, stop to rest frequently in Mordor, because travel there well and truly sucks.

In some thread about recomended number of encounters per long rest some time ago, I've looked at the Fellowship in LotR and concluded they were working with the gritty realism rest variant: 8 hours for short rest, a week (or just few days) for long rest. While they were taking short rest almost each day, they had close to recommended number of encounters between long rest points: Rivendell, Lothlorien, with Faramir's rangers for Frodo and Sam, Edoras and Helm's Deep for Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, ruins of Isengard for the whole group except the two hobbits and then Minas Tirith before the end.

Sam and Frodo faced less encounters, thus they got with less rests, while the other group had more fighting. Merry and Pippin had less encounters between Lothlorien and Isengard, because they spent most of the time in captivity or waiting for the Ents in Fangorn, then took part in all the battles Aragorn & co. were in.

JakOfAllTirades
2016-04-12, 01:20 PM
As far as I'm concerned "pride" can go screw itself. If I'm playing a Warlock (or any other SR-dependent class), I'm not asking; I'm telling the rest of the group, "Guys, I've got two (maybe three) spell slots, and when they're gone, I'm taking a short rest."

Done.

JackPhoenix
2016-04-12, 01:23 PM
It's kind of like how video-game bosses will politely decorate the hallways leading to their chambers with ammunition, health items, and a save-point. It's just common courtesy, you know?

Well, those are THEIR supplies. The "heroes" are filthy thieves stealing the bosses' stuff before murdering them when they are caught in the act and the boss attack them in defense of his property. Stop cheering for them!

DireSickFish
2016-04-12, 01:27 PM
The group I play with tend to overuse short rests when given the opportunity. It really depends on the quest weather they can get away with it or not. D&D shouldn't be a bunch of cookie cutter adventures where you -always- get 2 short rests and 1 long rest an adventuring day.

That Orc king is still going to be sitting in his castle if you take a short rest after those owlbears you bumped into on the way there. But once you enter the castle if you stop for an hour nap the orc guards will find your or the king will escape with the McGuffin if he thinks he's in danger.

If your a player all you can do is advocate for smart use of short rests.

If your a DM, either plan that they wont short rest and reduce difficulty or don't pull punches. If it makes sense for the adventure that rushing somewhere should help then let it help. The players don't get to the ritual just after the Demon is summond, they get there when it's still being set up. Sure it was more dangerous for the player, and your encouraging them to be reckless in the future, but if they can overcome the increased challenge they ought to be rewarded.

Demonslayer666
2016-04-12, 02:10 PM
My group never seems to take a short rest, yet it isn't the game's fault.
Even after expending all of their resources that recharge on short rests, and even being below half hit points, the short rest guys reject all offers for a short rest. They simply have too much pride to admit to the other characters that they need a breather and would rather risk their lives than put themselves in a position to seem like the weakest link.
Am I in a group full of unnaturally proud players, or do other groups experience a similar issue?

You should challenge them more and make them want more HP back before it's time for a long rest. Knock em out. Have them encounter something that has bloodlust and goes for the weakest character (lowest HP). Low HP will make everyone want to rest and heal up.

I play a Warlock in a 5th edition game and he is still extremely effective without any of his spell slots. So unless I'm pretty wounded, I opt out of short rests.

@Kryx - I've never understood the concept of limiting the number of short rests per long rest. If you have a free hour, you have a free hour. Seems like a huge nerf if you have them face more than two encounters a day.

Segev
2016-04-12, 02:28 PM
The problem with those options that as a player I feel bad for the Warlock, but my character doesn't have much in the way of empathy. He is willing to take a look at the Warlock panting away with their spent magical energies and then offer a short breather, but after having that offer rejected he couldn't care less. He is more likely to say "suit yourself" and then probably push ahead more than he otherwise would just so he can see the Warlock's pride collapse with him in a crumbled mess of exhaustion.Then I suggest going with the last option. It may be slightly out of character, but it's not so far so that it violates the premise you've set up, and it satisfies your OOC sympathy. It is also the tactically wise thing to do, unless there's a reason to press on that is more important than life-or-death for the party personally.

Because the difference between a short-rested Warlock and an exhausted Warlock can be life-or-death for the party.

So take the Giant in the Playground's advice, and remember that your character exists only in your mind. Find a reason to do what you want him to, rather than letting a narrow mental image of him dictate what he cannot do.

In other words, your character doesn't care if the Warlock pants his way up the mountain, too proud to admit he needs a rest. However, your character darned well should care that the Warlock is too exhausted to be of use in a fight, when every ally can mean less harm to your Wizard. So take the option of scolding him and insisting on it.

Also, Option 1 works, still, too: your Wizard can use his short rest recovery ability once per day. And he's not too proud to admit it!


The problem I have with a short rest is that my sorcerer rarely benefits from them. I play in a large, melee focused party - my sorcerer is really the only ranged combatant. As such, I rarely get damaged and don't need the HP recovery from the short rest.
I take it you're a dragon-blooded sorcerer? Because IIRC, the Wild Touched sorcerer gets his bloodline powers back with short rests.

Regardless, if it REALLY bugs you, take 2-3 levels of Warlock. Not only will you get some short-rest recovery spell slots, but you can, if you haven't used them before a short rest, convert them to sorcery points.

Kryx
2016-04-12, 02:46 PM
@Kryx - I've never understood the concept of limiting the number of short rests per long rest. If you have a free hour, you have a free hour. Seems like a huge nerf if you have them face more than two encounters a day.
The whole system is balanced around 2 short rests per day. Giving more or less breaks that balance.

However you want to fluff it I suggest you do. You will definitely have to if you make them 5 mins (unless you want a party full of Warlocks)

GWJ_DanyBoy
2016-04-12, 03:00 PM
Meh, some days they do no short rests between long rests, and some days they get a bunch. Some days they only have a single encounter, and other days they're grinding through a whole dungeon. Let the party set their own pace and test their own limits, and adjust the world to their actions. We're all just trying to have fun.

DireSickFish
2016-04-12, 03:24 PM
The whole system is balanced around 2 short rests per day. Giving more or less breaks that balance.

However you want to fluff it I suggest you do. You will definitely have to if you make them 5 mins (unless you want a party full of Warlocks)

I agree with you that the system is balanced around 2 short rest between every long rest.

However the system is a bit more volatile than that. Some days are unlucky and the DM rolls more crits than usual. Spellcasting opponents that lock someone. Players using resources improperly, like fireballing the room of 2 mooks instead of the room of 6 elites.

While I'm not opposed to limiting the players to 2 short rests a day it can feel arbitrary and it's not worth implementing at some tables. I like to keep the option open for variance. Some of my missions are cakewalks and you can short rest all day. Others are timed where even 1 short rest is a luxury that could cost you. Most fall in between giving you the 2 short rests but more costing you something.

MBControl
2016-04-12, 06:33 PM
As a DM I find that a big reason a lot of PC's make strange rest options is related to the fact that they haven't realized the pacing of the quest.

My favorite technique as a DM, when I want or need my group to realize something, is actually "misinterpret" what they meant. For example.

The fight ends and the group is pretty beaten up. The PC says I'm going to investigate the statue, and another one intends to loot the bodies. I say "okay, so you take a short rest to regroup and check your surroundings." Whether they intended to break or not, they generally just go along with it. If for some reason they really don't want to use the rest, they'll tell me and I'll say oops, I misunderstood, and move on.

I try not to use this tactic to often, but it helps influence different game play options, while still leaving control of the story in the hands of the players.

Some players just need to be reassured that they are safe to let their guard down. Saying that this room can be easily secured if you want to take some time to regroup. I don't like dictating game play, but I do need to set the pace of the adventure, and this method to do so.

I don't see the point of time flexibility. In real time, a 1 hour rest takes the same time as a 15 minute rest. In game time the PC's should know if they are in a hurry or not.

MBControl
2016-04-12, 06:51 PM
also, enforce exhaustion. It's written into the game, and can be a big disadvantage that they won't want to risk.

Malifice
2016-04-13, 02:34 AM
The whole system is balanced around 2 short rests per day. Giving more or less breaks that balance.

Over the long run.

If some days they get none, and some days they get 4 or 5, so be it.

Giant2005
2016-04-13, 03:26 AM
also, enforce exhaustion. It's written into the game, and can be a big disadvantage that they won't want to risk.

This is a bit of a completely unrelated pet peeve of mine, but you touched upon it so I will mention it anyway.
Exhaustion may be written in the game, but only very, very loosely. The only RAW relationship exhaustion has with resting is that upon completing a long rest, you recover from 1 level of exhaustion. Without DM intervention, your average human could go for decades without ever taking a nap and never suffer a level of exhaustion for it (obviously he should, but we don't have any rules telling us that he should).

djreynolds
2016-04-13, 03:48 AM
Smart players, regardless of the class, will all take short rests just to recover hit points. Even a cleric with channel divinity can benefit from a short rest.

If I lose more than 1 hit die worth of HP, I'm rolling for hit points on a short rest. Its there, its a resource, so use it.

Saeviomage
2016-04-13, 06:11 AM
I think the best way to do things is to divorce short rest benefits from "taking an hour off". If the players can put their feet up, and you as a DM think they've done enough encounters, just inform them that it counts as a short rest, even if its 5 minutes. Conversely if it's their first encounter of the day, no short rest.

charcoalninja
2016-04-13, 06:29 AM
I use Short rests in Pathfinder actually with a VP/WP system (short rest gives back all VP) and flavour it like rounds in sport fighting. Your MMA Fighter goes out and fights with everything they've got for a few minutes than takes a breather and is ready to kick in heads again! Would work fine for 5e as well and works to balance mundanes vs fullcasters some more as well. So I say you go with 5 minute shorts, 8 hour longs.

Kryx
2016-04-13, 06:49 AM
If some days they get none, and some days they get 4 or 5, so be it.
I compared Warlock spell slot value vs Wizard spell slot value over a normal day (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1717442820) (2 short rests). They are pretty balanced.

If you run some days as 0 and some days as 4 short rests then it'll balance out with the player feeling less powerful on some days and more powerful on others. That's a viable strategy if you are able to adhere to it. I prefer to expect every day to include 2 short rests.

Giant2005
2016-04-13, 07:31 AM
I compared Warlock spell slot value vs Wizard spell slot value over a normal day (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak/edit#gid=1717442820) (2 short rests). They are pretty balanced.

If you run some days as 0 and some days as 4 short rests then it'll balance out with the player feeling less powerful on some days and more powerful on others. That's a viable strategy if you are able to adhere to it. I prefer to expect every day to include 2 short rests.

A Warlock's numbers might only come up a little short against the Wizard when under perfect conditions, but perfect conditions don't really occur outside the realms of theorycraft.
In actual play, they don't really compare - even with two Short Rests per day. If a Warlock keeps a spell slot in reserve for emergencies like any caster should, he is losing near 25% of his casting power. A Wizard loses far less than that, which further extends the gap between them.
Every time a Warlock is forced to use a level 5 spell slot to cast a non-scaling, or poorly-scaling level 1 spell, the gap between them is further extended.
There are also less quantifiable differences which favor the Wizard - most notably a greater casting power on a fight by fight basis. With two battles with a rest between, the first being easy and the second being extremely difficult, the Warlock is forced into using equal resources in both battles. The Wizard however is capable of playing much more intelligently and assigning more resources to the more deserving battle.

Kryx
2016-04-13, 08:25 AM
Yes, the Wizard is intended to be much more versatile than the Warlock. The warlock is intended to have some big spells while focusing mainly on cantrips.

In total spell slot level value though they are pretty equivalent.

Zalabim
2016-04-13, 03:11 PM
This is a bit of a completely unrelated pet peeve of mine, but you touched upon it so I will mention it anyway.
Exhaustion may be written in the game, but only very, very loosely. The only RAW relationship exhaustion has with resting is that upon completing a long rest, you recover from 1 level of exhaustion. Without DM intervention, your average human could go for decades without ever taking a nap and never suffer a level of exhaustion for it (obviously he should, but we don't have any rules telling us that he should).

The forced march rules do limit the benefit of going without rest. You can't just adventure 24 hours a day.

Giant2005
2016-04-13, 03:21 PM
The forced march rules do limit the benefit of going without rest. You can't just adventure 24 hours a day.

That only applies to partaking in a forced march for longer than 8 hours in a single day. It doesn't have anything to do with refusing to sleep.

Demonslayer666
2016-04-13, 05:02 PM
The whole system is balanced around 2 short rests per day. Giving more or less breaks that balance.

However you want to fluff it I suggest you do. You will definitely have to if you make them 5 mins (unless you want a party full of Warlocks)

I completely disagree. A warlock that blasts all his spell slots and expects to regain them twice more this day is foolish. He may face 14 more encounters that day with no short rests.

The point is, you never know what to expect and you have to judiciously expend your resources. That is why the number of short rests don't matter. You should never know how many you are going to get. Where's the fun in that?!?

MBControl
2016-04-13, 06:43 PM
This is a bit of a completely unrelated pet peeve of mine, but you touched upon it so I will mention it anyway.
Exhaustion may be written in the game, but only very, very loosely. The only RAW relationship exhaustion has with resting is that upon completing a long rest, you recover from 1 level of exhaustion. Without DM intervention, your average human could go for decades without ever taking a nap and never suffer a level of exhaustion for it (obviously he should, but we don't have any rules telling us that he should).

I agree, the initial rules don't explain exhaustion well. In regards to short rests, it's not about napping. It's eating a full meal, and drinking water, and yes, resting. And we aren't talking about the average person day to day. If you spend the morning slaying a dragon, it makes sense you would need a break before clearing a den of Hell Hounds in the afternoon. Personally, if I play a few hours of basketball in the morning, I need a nice long nap.