Goliath Great Weapon Master + Tavern Brawler

[Koningkrush]

Do you think it would be unreasonable to have my Goliath, with Tavern Brawler, be able to grapple and then equip a medium creature as an improvised weapon with proficiency?

Then, use the Great Weapon Master feat to swing with the creature with bonus actions, and take a -5 to the roll to give +10 to damage?

In the end, with Rage, I could deal 1d4 + 16 damage to both the equipped creature and the person I'm hitting, although I'm not sure if the creature would still take the damage regardless if I hit or not assuming I'm doing an overhead swing.

Photo for Reference:
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/Aaron_Koning/NPC_zpsxzv1wl1q.jpg (http://s392.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Koning/media/NPC_zpsxzv1wl1q.jpg.html)

[Lightninlad]

Do you think it would be unreasonable to have my Goliath, with Tavern Brawler, be able to grapple and then equip a medium creature as an improvised weapon with proficiency?

Then, use the Great Weapon Master feat to swing with the creature with bonus actions, and take a -5 to the roll to give +10 to damage?

In the end, with Rage, I could deal 1d4 + 16 damage to both the equipped creature and the person I'm hitting, although I'm not sure if the creature would still take the damage regardless if I hit or not assuming I'm doing an overhead swing.

Photo for Reference:
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/Aaron_Koning/NPC_zpsxzv1wl1q.jpg (http://s392.photobucket.com/user/Aaron_Koning/media/NPC_zpsxzv1wl1q.jpg.html)


Lol!! I don't think so, Tim. ; )

An "improvised weapon" isn't a "great weapon". You'd have to make us believe your character wields humanoids as a weapon and has "mastered" it in such a way that it is considered a great weapon. Great idea though. If I was the DM I'd have to allow it for originality and likely give you an inspiration point for even thinking it up. Lol

[Belac93]

Sure! An elf is two handed, right? The best part is when you take two-weapon fighter and dual wield halflings. :smallbiggrin:
As long as you can grapple them, I see no problem with this.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think you could swing them for 1d4+str but it isn't heavy (it is, but doesn't have the heavy property) so you wouldn't add Great Weapon Master damage.

How is THIS an index ???

[RickAllison]

Let's run some numbers here. Let's accept 13 strength as a benchmark score for wielding Heavy weapons (since most of the standard Heavy classes have that as an MC requirement, it seems like a decent choice).

A pike is the heaviest Heavy weapon and is likely as unwieldy as a body (for different reasons), so we will compare that as a standard.

13*15 lb/18 lb gives a weight ratio of 10.8333 for the pike. For a regular Goliath with 20 strength, that gives a value (20*15*2/10.833) of 55 lb. not quite what we are looking for. However, a Bearbarian gets to double that, so he gets that for those weighing up to 110 lb. Still not very much, however a kind caster friend of the barbarian can cast Enhance Ability or Enlarge and he would be justified in wielding enemies up to 220 lb as a two-handed weapon.

[wunderkid]

A pike is the heaviest Heavy weapon and is likely as unwieldy as a body (for different reasons), so we will compare that as a standard.

Sorry but is this suggesting that a pike, a weapon designed to be wielded and used and has been proven to be an effective weapon through the ages is as unwieldy as a body, which would not only actively resist you throwing it around is also designed in no way to be used as a weapon in this manner, and be akin to fighting with a very heavy wet noodle?

I love the idea, I'd definitely allow it with some possible caveats, but drawing a comparison between an actual weapon and throwing someone around and calling them in almost any way equal seems stretching things a lot imo

[RickAllison]

Sorry but is this suggesting that a pike, a weapon designed to be wielded and used and has been proven to be an effective weapon through the ages is as unwieldy as a body, which would not only actively resist you throwing it around is also designed in no way to be used as a weapon in this manner, and be akin to fighting with a very heavy wet noodle?

I love the idea, I'd definitely allow it with some possible caveats, but drawing a comparison between an actual weapon and throwing someone around and calling them in almost any way equal seems stretching things a lot imo

Yes, I am comparing an actual weapon. A weapon that is considered able to be wielded at 10 ft (so much higher moment) compared to something handled directly. The comparison is more apt than you would think. Plus at this point the struggling of the body matters very little compared to what the barbarian is doing...

From a Rules as Fun perspective, someone has invested their race, a class feature, and a spell slot of a caster ally to do something that is suboptimal. I think a handwave with some mechanical justification is fine.

[Koningkrush]

After thinking about it for a while, I believe just being able to throw the person up to 60 feet away, with Reckless Attack to negate disadvantage, would be a far better use than using the person in melee.

It wouldn't be as much DPS as just using a real weapon, but the field control would be amazing.

I probably won't take Great Weapon Master since improvised weapons don't have the Heavy property.

The PHB does say, though, that you can treat an improvised weapon as a normal weapon if it's similar to the counterpart (table leg --> club). I think it would be a stretch to say that a person is nearly the same as a Great Club, lol.

[wunderkid]

Yes, I am comparing an actual weapon. A weapon that is considered able to be wielded at 10 ft (so much higher moment) compared to something handled directly. The comparison is more apt than you would think. Plus at this point the struggling of the body matters very little compared to what the barbarian is doing...

From a Rules as Fun perspective, someone has invested their race, a class feature, and a spell slot of a caster ally to do something that is suboptimal. I think a handwave with some mechanical justification is fine.

I'm sorry but the comparison is not remotely apt.

Have you ever been fishing? And tried to hold onto a fish that's roughly the size of a short sword? And then tell me that essentially they are just as unwieldy as each other? Or tried to balance a bucket full of water (similar principle however at least the bucket isn't actively using its momentum against you only reacting to your own movements).

The point of the struggling body matters immensely, after all they will be doing things like grabbing his hair, going limp, to squirming, all things that will drastically alter the momentum you can generate through them.

A dynamic load isn't exactly easy to control which is probably why there are very few that exist as weapons without technology to compensate for it.

Perhaps an unconscious body may be slightly closer, but even then due to the shape, size and limpness of the body generating any momentum with it would require a lot more effort than you'd get rewards. But with no struggling then yeah it would make life a lot easier.

For a fantasy game like D&D heck I'd hand wave this because the rule of cool. It's the kind of thing you see in films or read in stories but it does not have a real world basis as a comparable weapon to a pike (aside from the fact they are both made of atoms).

[RickAllison]

I'm sorry but the comparison is not remotely apt.

Have you ever been fishing? And tried to hold onto a fish that's roughly the size of a short sword? And then tell me that essentially they are just as unwieldy as each other? Or tried to balance a bucket full of water (similar principle however at least the bucket isn't actively using its momentum against you only reacting to your own movements).

The point of the struggling body matters immensely, after all they will be doing things like grabbing his hair, going limp, to squirming, all things that will drastically alter the momentum you can generate through them.

A dynamic load isn't exactly easy to control which is probably why there are very few that exist as weapons without technology to compensate for it.

Perhaps an unconscious body may be slightly closer, but even then due to the shape, size and limpness of the body generating any momentum with it would require a lot more effort than you'd get rewards. But with no struggling then yeah it would make life a lot easier.

For a fantasy game like D&D heck I'd hand wave this because the rule of cool. It's the kind of thing you see in films or read in stories but it does not have a real world basis as a comparable weapon to a pike (aside from the fact they are both made of atoms).

I'm not talking about this in reference to the real-world pike (which is incredibly unwieldy. Seriously. The only thing it is useful for is in a formation and for defending locations), I'm talking about it in terms of the pike in the PHB.

Really, all I did was try and put up some limits on the tactic that were consistent with game mechanics. Yeah, it doesn't work in real life. Neither does wielding a pike like can be done in game, or firing crossbows as fast as Fighters using Crossbow master can. I don't care if it is applicable to real-life (at least not in this), I just care if it's consistent with the rules in the game.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

I did this at a convention AD&D 2nd. The MOB we were fighting could only be damaged by magic weapons and the Elvin Cleric, who just died was in magic platemail so my Half-Ogre picked up his corpse up and started beating the bad guy with it. No matter how many times I told him that "I was playing with the team" the GM later banned the character for not being a "team player".

[Jarlhen]

I don't believe that is reasonable at all.

First of all, a 20 str goliath is no stronger than a 20 str human. And since 20 is the limit for PCs under normal circumstances I would argue that makes them as strong as human biology will allow them to be. Essentially you have the strength of a strongman. There is nothing supernatural about your strength. So the first thing is grabbing a 150-200 lb person and hoisting them off the ground in the same manner as you would a weapon. Even with strongman strength the sheer imbalance of a person's body, the fact that they're soft and squishy and limbs are flailing makes it hugely different from an object. I mean I can see how grabbing a bench and swinging it like a greataxe would make it count as an improvised weapon, sure. But a person? Absolutely not. Both the weight and the design of a person is too different.

Throwing a person or hurling/driving them into someone else? Yeah that you could probably do with relative ease. I mean not very far, but sure. Would it do any damage? No. I'd give you maybe your str bonus and no dice roll. At best. Or just 1d4 and no bonus. Again, it's about the design of a person. We're soft, squishy, everything is flailing in different directions. The only part of a human which is realistically going to hurt when hitting you, beyond a bit of bruising, is the head. If you manage to hurl a person so that their head hits your target then that would hurt. In rare instance it would cause significant damage, realistically it'll be no more than a bruise, you'll knock the wind out of them, maybe (probably) knock them prone.

I absolutely get how your suggestion is comical. And if you're in a group which enjoys that kind of play I'm sure it'd work fine. Though I would argue it opens the door for a whole lot of issue. I mean if you can lift and swing a 150 lb human like a greataxe why couldn't you do the same with 150 lb piece of steel? And realistically 150 lbs of steel being swung like a greataxe would do absolutely absurd amounts of damage. It is, after, a giant piece of steel. And from a semi-realistic point of view the whole concept is silly and wouldn't do any good. You'd do far more damage just punching someone than you would trying to swing another person at them. You simply can't reach the force necessary and all the energy of the force will spread out in a million different directions not to mention how softened the blow would be simply from the fat and muscle in the way.

That's how I'd rule it anyways.

[GlenSmash!]

First of all, a 20 str goliath is no stronger than a 20 str human.

A 20 str Goliath is exactly twice as strong as a 20 str human due to the Goliath feature Powerful Build. "You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift."

[KorvinStarmast]

I did this at a convention AD&D 2nd. The MOB we were fighting could only be damaged by magic weapons and the Elvin Cleric, who just died was in magic platemail so my Half-Ogre picked up his corpse up and started beating the bad guy with it.
I love it.

No matter how many times I told him that "I was playing with the team" the GM later banned the character for not being a "team player". Gee, even conventions have jerk DMs. So it goes.

[Hrugner]

I don't think you could grapple someone while also wielding a two handed weapon. Using a person as a two handed weapon seems alright since grappling now requires one hand and the only thing impacted is your movement speed. So long as it doesn't put you over your encumbrance, no biggie. It's never going to be the best option, but will often be the most fun option, so why not.

[N810]

What if the person you are swinging is wielding a Great Weapon ? :elan:

oh, or you could just use an enemy to attack the floor.
http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/the-avengers-angry-hulk-smash-loki.gif :thog:

[Jarlhen]

A 20 str Goliath is exactly twice as strong as a 20 str human due to the Goliath feature Powerful Build. "You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift."

If they were they'd have +10 bonus from 20 strength which they do not. I simply don't buy that as going around the unwieldy nature of a 150lb+ person. If that was the case then there is 0 reason why they wouldn't be wielding 150lbs bars of steel. I mean can you imagine the damage from smacking someone over the head with that? Besides, by RAW that sentence doesn't say anything about wielding, throwing, or swinging. Pushing, dragging, and lifting are very different maneuvers. A goliath may be a draft horse, capable of pulling heavy weights, but when it comes to kicking someone in the face it'll kill you dead equally much as a race horse will.

[GlenSmash!]

If they were they'd have +10 bonus from 20 strength which they do not. I simply don't buy that as going around the unwieldy nature of a 150lb+ person. If that was the case then there is 0 reason why they wouldn't be wielding 150lbs bars of steel. I mean can you imagine the damage from smacking someone over the head with that? Besides, by RAW that sentence doesn't say anything about wielding, throwing, or swinging. Pushing, dragging, and lifting are very different maneuvers. A goliath may be a draft horse, capable of pulling heavy weights, but when it comes to kicking someone in the face it'll kill you dead equally much as a race horse will.

But what you said and what I quoted was not "A 20 str goliath is exactly as damaging as a 20 str human" or has the same killing power. What you wrote was "exactly as strong as", If one person can lift twice as much as another person they are stronger. Period. Now as to how much damage will each of them do with a greatsword? That's different. In 5e D&D exactly the same, but that does not mean they are exactly as strong as each other.

Equal strength scores do not mean equally strong. As the female giant would say "Size matters" :smallwink:

[Jarlhen]

But what you said and what I quoted was not "A 20 str goliath is exactly as damaging as a 20 str human" or has the same killing power. What you wrote was "exactly as strong as", If one person can lift twice as much as another person they are stronger. Period. Now as to how much damage will each of them do with a greatsword? That's different. In 5e D&D exactly the same, but that does not mean they are exactly as strong as each other.

Equal strength scores do not mean equally strong. As the female giant would say "Size matters" :smallwink:

Fair enough, I should have worded it differently. My point, however, remains the same; A goliath cannot make use of a medium sized creature in the way described. I still doubt they could even swing a medium sized creature with any kind of control. It would be more like throwing the hammer without the precision or control, and a hammer would do damage whereas a medium sized creature would more knock someone prone and perhaps bruise them. Regardless, my biggest concern would absolutely be the can of worms of other implements it opens the game up to. Realistically a 50lb greatsword would do far more damage than a 10lb, and if you can swing 150-200lb people around with ease you're going to have no reason not to start specially ordering weapons that do 5d10 base damage simply on account of heft.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

A goliath cannot make use of a medium sized creature in the way described.

A 6th level Bear totem Barbarian Goliath, with Tavern Brawler giving proficiency to improvised weapons, and their Powerful Build and Bear Aspect, there is absolutely no ruling preventing them from doing such.

It is only your own lack of suspension-of-disbelief. True a GM can disallow this if they want, but there is NO rule PREVENTING it

[Jarlhen]

A 6th level Bear totem Barbarian Goliath, with Tavern Brawler giving proficiency to improvised weapons, and their Powerful Build and Bear Aspect, there is absolutely no ruling preventing them from doing such.

It is only your own lack of suspension-of-disbelief. True a GM can disallow this if they want, but there is NO rule PREVENTING it

Well, no, but technically there's no rule for a lot of outlandish things. But the whole thing is based on the Goliath's special ability to push, drag, lift, and carry. None of those motions are the same as wielding and using a person as a weapon. And the rules for improvised weapon states specifically an object. Living creatures, generally, are not considered objects as far as I'm aware though that may be a matter of semantics, I don't know to what extent D&D uses the term objects to refer to living creatures beyond creations. So while there is no specific rule against it I'd absolutely argue there's no rule supporting it either. It's entirely up to the DM, and that's where my argument stemmed from.

[Rhaegar]

A 6th level Bear totem Barbarian Goliath, with Tavern Brawler giving proficiency to improvised weapons, and their Powerful Build and Bear Aspect, there is absolutely no ruling preventing them from doing such.

It is only your own lack of suspension-of-disbelief. True a GM can disallow this if they want, but there is NO rule PREVENTING it

I have a goliath barbarian with GWM in my campaign, if he tried something like this, I might be inclined to let him, though he may find the attack done at disadvantage due to the fact that any humanoid would be flopping around a lot.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

I have a goliath barbarian with GWM in my campaign, if he tried something like this, I might be inclined to let him, though he may find the attack done at disadvantage due to the fact that any humanoid would be flopping around a lot.

Which is obviously a reckless attack, so use the feature to nullify disadvantage

[JackPhoenix]

Realistically a 50lb greatsword would do far more damage than a 10lb, and if you can swing 150-200lb people around with ease you're going to have no reason not to start specially ordering weapons that do 5d10 base damage simply on account of heft.

It wouldn't, unless you plan to drop it on them. Even with greater strength, it would be much slower, and the extra weight has to come from somewhere. It would either be thicker, meaning it wouldn't be as sharp (hell, it would have to be thicker even if you made it as large as Gut's sword, unless you want it to break or bend under its own weight) or much longer (thus unwieldy in close quarters, and the leverage of the long blade would work against you holding it at end). And momentum is a thing, you swing it, you'll be too unbalanced to hit anything smaller than house if it's moving, and it would open you up for a counterstrike. You could use that extra strength to swing normal blade faster and with more force.

Character using huge-ass swords to show how strong they are is a stupid anime and video game idea with no basis in reality.

[RickAllison]

It wouldn't, unless you plan to drop it on them. Even with greater strength, it would be much slower, and the extra weight has to come from somewhere. It would either be thicker, meaning it wouldn't be as sharp (hell, it would have to be thicker even if you made it as large as Gut's sword, unless you want it to break or bend under its own weight) or much longer (thus unwieldy in close quarters, and the leverage of the long blade would work against you holding it at end). And momentum is a thing, you swing it, you'll be too unbalanced to hit anything smaller than house if it's moving, and it would open you up for a counterstrike. You could use that extra strength to swing normal blade faster and with more force.

Character using huge-ass swords to show how strong they are is a stupid anime and video game idea with no basis in reality.

They do have some precedent if the person is super-strong. Highly impractical for a normal person, but they will start running into a speed barrier with the arm.

Though based on how big the swords like Cloud's are, I don't think the creators had anything like that in mind at all...

[Jarlhen]

It wouldn't, unless you plan to drop it on them. Even with greater strength, it would be much slower, and the extra weight has to come from somewhere. It would either be thicker, meaning it wouldn't be as sharp (hell, it would have to be thicker even if you made it as large as Gut's sword, unless you want it to break or bend under its own weight) or much longer (thus unwieldy in close quarters, and the leverage of the long blade would work against you holding it at end). And momentum is a thing, you swing it, you'll be too unbalanced to hit anything smaller than house if it's moving, and it would open you up for a counterstrike. You could use that extra strength to swing normal blade faster and with more force.

Character using huge-ass swords to show how strong they are is a stupid anime and video game idea with no basis in reality.

I don't think any of what you're saying is an argument for why it would do less damage. If I can use a 150lb person as a weapon in combat that means I can use a 150lb steel bar as well. Doesn't matter if it's unwieldy, that's the premise, it can be used equally well. If you were to then take that 150lb steel bar and have it designed as a weapon that's a regular weapon but with more than ten times the heft of a regular weapon. There is no reason for why it couldn't be sharp enough. As the whole idea is that you can wield 150lb things in combat it wouldn't be too unwieldy or too slow. In fact, I'd argue the momentum would make it even faster than a regular weapon. You'd absolutely destroy anything in your way and do far more damage than a regular weapon.

That said, my whole argument is I wouldn't allow it. I find it silly and argue that it wouldn't work from a rules point of view or from a physics/physiological point of view. But the above argument is entirely based on the idea that you can wield a 150lb person as a weapon, well enough to get bonuses from great weapon master and tavern brawler.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think you can, but as I said before, you can not and will not apply Great Weapon Master damage (+10/-5)