Demoralize more than once per round?

[fikoantunes]

I’ve read the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and double-checked the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) description… But I still have questions regarding Demoralize. It states the target becomes shaken for 1 round in a successful Demoralize attempt. But is this a fear condition? Because if it is, then it’s vulnerable to fear stacking, as per fear rules in SRD.

Then I pictured this: the ACF fighter that can demoralize as a swift action. He makes his target shaken using that swift action. Then he uses his standard action on the same round to make another demoralize attempt, so if the target fails it will become frightened.

As a DM I wouldn’t allow more than one successful demoralize attempt more than once/round against the same target. But I can’t find this on RAW… So that scene can really happen?

[Crake]

I’ve read the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and double-checked the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) description… But I still have questions regarding Demoralize. It states the target becomes shaken for 1 round in a successful Demoralize attempt. But is this a fear condition? Because if it is, then it’s vulnerable to fear stacking, as per fear rules in SRD.

Then I pictured this: the ACF fighter that can demoralize as a swift action. He makes his target shaken using that swift action. Then he uses his standard action on the same round to make another demoralize attempt, so if the target fails it will become frightened.

As a DM I wouldn’t allow more than one successful demoralize attempt more than once/round against the same target. But I can’t find this on RAW… So that scene can really happen?

That scene can 100% happen, yeah, fear stacking is pretty sweet.

[Troacctid]

IIRC, fear from different sources stacks, but fear from the same source does not.

[fikoantunes]

IIRC, fear from different sources stacks, but fear from the same source does not.

But is this stated by RAW? And if it is, what would be the definition of "different sources"? It is the same character? Or the same skill/trick/ability? Depending on the answer, two different characters using the Demoralize action could then stack the fear condition as they are different sources, for example.

[Troacctid]

But is this stated by RAW? And if it is, what would be the definition of "different sources"? It is the same character? Or the same skill/trick/ability? Depending on the answer, two different characters using the Demoralize action could then stack the fear condition as they are different sources, for example.

Yes, it's in Heroes of Horror. And one of the examples they give is that two dragons' frightful presence abilities don't stack, so the same effect from a different character is still considered the same effect.

[Red Fel]

Yes, it's in Heroes of Horror. And one of the examples they give is that two dragons' frightful presence abilities don't stack, so the same effect from a different character is still considered the same effect.

That, and it's the general "same source" rule. As shown here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking):

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

In other words, Fear Effect X does not stack with another application of Fear Effect X, even if it comes from another creature. However, certain effects explicitly stack; you've read the Fear Handbook, you've seen how stacking works. But generally, you can't simply demoralize and then re-demoralize and expect stacking effects.

[Darrin]

But is this stated by RAW? And if it is, what would be the definition of "different sources"? It is the same character? Or the same skill/trick/ability? Depending on the answer, two different characters using the Demoralize action could then stack the fear condition as they are different sources, for example.

If you're going by just the DMG/SRD, then fear effects are explicitly cumulative. As far as stacking goes, the rules don't usually allow anything from the same "source" to stack, but then rules also don't explicitly define what a "source" is, so two separate characters using the same ability on a target could be interpreted as the "same source" (they are using the same Demoralize ability) or "different sources" (same ability but from two different characters). That's more or less a DM's Call.



Yes, it's in Heroes of Horror. And one of the examples they give is that two dragons' frightful presence abilities don't stack, so the same effect from a different character is still considered the same effect.


This rule was carried over into the Rules Compendium (page 53):

"Multiple exposures to the same effect don't trigger this escalation of fear. Exposure to different effects does. When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire."

So if your group has access to Heroes of Horror and/or the Rules Compendium, then by this I'd say two Demoralizes, even from different characters, wouldn't stack.

[johnbragg]

I’ve read the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) and double-checked the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) description… But I still have questions regarding Demoralize. It states the target becomes shaken for 1 round in a successful Demoralize attempt. But is this a fear condition? Because if it is, then it’s vulnerable to fear stacking, as per fear rules in SRD.

Then I pictured this: the ACF fighter that can demoralize as a swift action. He makes his target shaken using that swift action. Then he uses his standard action on the same round to make another demoralize attempt, so if the target fails it will become frightened.

As a DM I wouldn’t allow more than one successful demoralize attempt more than once/round against the same target. But I can’t find this on RAW… So that scene can really happen?

Really? Maybe you should. PArty fighter is investing one of his skills, of which he gets a whopping 2+Int mod, and taking an ACF. To spend a swift action and a standard action, both of which require an opposed check, to get the equivalent of a 1st level spell, cause fear.

[fikoantunes]

Really? Maybe you should. PArty fighter is investing one of his skills, of which he gets a whopping 2+Int mod, and taking an ACF. To spend a swift action and a standard action, both of which require an opposed check, to get the equivalent of a 1st level spell, cause fear.

But after what everybody said, now I see if the table uses Rules Compendium, then that poor Fighter wouldn't even achieve the Cause Fear effect at all :smallsmile:

Thank you guys for all the info. Never realized the DMG would encourage the fear stacking using the Demoralize route and then newer splatbooks would supersede that with addition rule info. It's clear the game designers at some point realized the "different source" stuff was too open, and thus decided to fix that.

[Troacctid]

The updated rules were actually probably an overall buff to fear-stacking, because they added the clause that says the escalated fear uses whatever duration is longest. So if you use one effect to render an enemy shaken for 1 minute, then demoralize them, they will become frightened, and remain frightened for the full remainder of the first effect's 1 minute duration.