Building Loki

[Ortesk]

Hey guy's, so here is my situation. In my current campaign (I am the DM) the BBEG at the end is going to be Loki, who the players will find out is the guy pulling the strings. He is going to be the embodiment of mischief, trickery, and deception. I want something flavorful, and a hard but beatable boss.

For the numbers/houserules:
He is going to be level 40 (The players will be level 35-40 when they fight him)

His stats are all 18, base. He is a deity after all.

In my world, deities are not as powerful as what Deities and Demigod's state. They all have Divine rank 0, so no alter reality cheese.

He is treated as having an unlimited source of resources, will all books open to him (But minimal homebrew) Also no other outside interference from Deities (Loki is the only Deity allowed in the mortal realm, but that is the only realm he can be in).

The party so far is a Half Giant Warblade, a Tibbit Rogue, a Human Ranger, and a Half Nymph (a custom version I created) Healer/Healing Hand of Mishakal. They are level 10 currently, so they could end up going anywhere with it.
So with all that in mind, I will take any and all help you can offer. Thank you for reading this mass of text :)

[Thealtruistorc]

Are you planning on more of a Marvel Loki or a Mythological Loki (or perhaps OotS Loki)? My response will be different for each.

[Alistaroc]

Give him Shadowcraft Mage 5 and 7-9 levels of Shadowcrafter. That'll give you the illusory trickery Loki is often famous for. Both classes require you to be a Gnome, but you can handwave this, or make Loki a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat. Beguiler is a great base, and fits the illusory flavor quite nicely. Beguiler 4, plus Shadowcraft Mage 5 and Shadowcrafter 9 gets you 9th level spells, a must-have for any deity. 2 more levels gets you fully advanced Beguiler casting as well as Silent Spell and a neat Bluff trick.

[Gildedragon]

Rogue/Illusionist or Rogue/Illusionist/Prestige Bard into Shadowcraft Mage into Arcane Trickster
Pseudoreal illusions arent shadows but fire...

Have you looked at the loki in Deities and Demigods?

[Ortesk]

Are you planning on more of a Marvel Loki or a Mythological Loki (or perhaps OotS Loki)? My response will be different for each.

More along the lines of Marvel, with minor differences. Just someone who is the embodiment of mischief, pranking and being the mastermind behind the scenes.


Rogue/Illusionist or Rogue/Illusionist/Prestige Bard into Shadowcraft Mage into Arcane Trickster
Pseudoreal illusions arent shadows but fire...

Have you looked at the loki in Deities and Demigods?

Looking in Deities and Demigods was my first stop, but once I took away all of his God powers (Since I rule deities as Divine Rank 0) His character felt bland and uninspiring. Which is no fault to the book creators, it was third edition and they didn't want to use other writers creations.


Give him Shadowcraft Mage 5 and 7-9 levels of Shadowcrafter. That'll give you the illusory trickery Loki is often famous for. Both classes require you to be a Gnome, but you can handwave this, or make Loki a Changeling with the Racial Emulation feat. Beguiler is a great base, and fits the illusory flavor quite nicely. Beguiler 4, plus Shadowcraft Mage 5 and Shadowcrafter 9 gets you 9th level spells, a must-have for any deity. 2 more levels gets you fully advanced Beguiler casting as well as Silent Spell and a neat Bluff trick.



Awesome advice, thank you! I feel kind of silly not having thought of beguiler. I can see the uses of it, and the flavor fitting. I will just handwave the racial requirement, since Loki is depicted as a human in almost all medias.

[Gildedragon]

More along the lines of Marvel, with minor differences. Just someone who is the embodiment of mischief, pranking and being the mastermind behind the scenes.



Looking in Deities and Demigods was my first stop, but once I took away all of his God powers (Since I rule deities as Divine Rank 0) His character felt bland and uninspiring. Which is no fault to the book creators, it was third edition and they didn't want to use other writers creations.





Awesome advice, thank you! I feel kind of silly not having thought of beguiler. I can see the uses of it, and the flavor fitting. I will just handwave the racial requirement, since Loki is depicted as a human in almost all medias.

Make him a doppelganger or a changeling for the native alter selfiness (though maybe boosted) (changelings and doppelgangers might claim descent from him)
I'd personally suggest wizard for the range of spells available (I assume he isn't going into epic spellcasting): Double specialization (illusion and transmutation)
snake familiar? Harasses him constantly?

[Ortesk]

Make him a doppelganger or a changeling for the native alter selfiness (though maybe boosted) (changelings and doppelgangers might claim descent from him)
I'd personally suggest wizard for the range of spells available (I assume he isn't going into epic spellcasting): Double specialization (illusion and transmutation)
snake familiar? Harasses him constantly?

You assume correct. I do want my players to have some form of a chance :smallwink: And the Doppelganger sounds neat, I will look into it. The changeling fits with the concept of him being a half breed though, hmm. Will have to think of it

[ATHATH]

Have you considered the Music of the Gods feat and/or the Thrallherd PrC?

[ATHATH]

Also:
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

[Warrnan]

One major point I'll add is that Loki needs to have permancied glibness or some similar effect.

[Ortesk]

One major point I'll add is that Loki needs to have permancied glibness or some similar effect.

Along with mindblank and other defensive wards. Since even Thor and Odin could not see through his lies, I have to assume he has a massive bluff and the ability to not simply be mind raped into telling the truth


Have you considered the Music of the Gods feat and/or the Thrallherd PrC?

Hmm, what about the nightmare spinner class? The book even offers a way to bypass those normally immune to enchantments, and it would fit the flavor. I am kind of liking the beguiler/shadow build, but I still have 20 levels to toss around

[Gildedragon]

Along with mindblank and other defensive wards. Since even Thor and Odin could not see through his lies, I have to assume he has a massive bluff and the ability to not simply be mind raped into telling the truth

Mindrape wouldn't work. Will-save and can't roll a natural 1.
But yeap defensive spells are part of the reason I suggest Wizard. Gotta have all them tricksy spells.

[Red Fel]

Also:
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

http://orig10.deviantart.net/e24e/f/2013/211/d/3/2p1q6_by_rainrivermusic-d6fyfjm.gif

Fact is, what needs to be said has been said.

1. Avoid the Deities and Demigods statblock, it stinks on ice.

2. A Shadowcraft build is ridiculously good, and totally fitting. Fluff prereqs as you like; he's not just an NPC, but a godling, after all.

3. Doppelganger is also a great option, although really only useful if you make him recur; otherwise it's just fluff.

4. Permanent Glibness is entirely appropriate.

I would simply add several points to those listed above.

First, he needs to be Cha-based. You can make him a Sorcerer with fairly little modification and he'd be amazing. Heck, make him a Dragon - that explains the shapechanging, the Charisma powers, the magic, the various defensive tricks (a lot of spells fail against him because he's not a Humanoid). Oh, and it lets him pull a Maleficent in the boss battle, which is just gravy.

Second, consider his function. For a character, you need class features and other abilities to justify everything they can do. This is not so for an NPC (although you need to be able to express his mechanics pursuant to the rules, to be fair). That means that, if he only appears for the final boss battle scene, you don't actually need to stat a lot of his stuff. Race is mostly irrelevant unless it plays into immunities. All sorts of class features become irrelevant as well. If, on the other hand, he's going to pop up in multiple scenes before the end, then yes, it would help to know that he's a Doppleganger or Dragon or something, that his powers are magical in nature, etc.

Third, consider his gear. He's a godling; he has access to some heavy resources. Don't be afraid to kit him out with all sorts of nasty tricks. Give him a full Christmas tree of magic items, or some nasty cursed objects to use against the PCs, or even an artifact or two. (Looking at you, Rod of Wonder.)

Aside from that, there's really only one thing a fight with Loki needs.

https://media.giphy.com/media/56aEmgezIZY8E/giphy.gif

PRESENTATION!

Loki is a storyteller. He uses words like very, very rich people spend money. He uses words like a painter uses inks, like a sculptor uses a chisel, like a serial killer uses a letter opener. He's an artist, is the point, and he's narcissistically free with his art. Any battle with him - heck, any scene with him - is going to be a spectacle. He doesn't just want to win, he wants to be glorious, so ham it all the way up.

[Snowbluff]

Loki in the Marvel movies is a straight up beguiler, right now to his spell list. He has quickblade proficiency for some reason, though. Don't know what he meant to do to Thor with 1d4 damage. :p

[Gildedragon]

Ooooh Dragon. That is good. Explains all his weird kids, his fire theme (Wagner's fault irl but more fun that way), and his arrogance
Yeah Cha is right. He isn't the most... Forethoughtful or careful with his plans. Int based casters go for Odin's method

[Gildedragon]

Loki in the Marvel movies is a straight up beguiler, right now to his spell list. He has quickblade proficiency for some reason, though. Don't know what he meant to do to Thor with 1d4 damage. :p

Iaijutsu focus ftw

[Snowbluff]

Iaijutsu focus ftw

Heheheh! XD
Thor was totally okay with his stab, though.

[Ortesk]

Loki is a storyteller. He uses words like very, very rich people spend money. He uses words like a painter uses inks, like a sculptor uses a chisel, like a serial killer uses a letter opener. He's an artist, is the point, and he's narcissistically free with his art. Any battle with him - heck, any scene with him - is going to be a spectacle. He doesn't just want to win, he wants to be glorious, so ham it all the way up.

That advice is amazing, thank you! But yes he is going to be popping up through the game, and never in his real form. I will definitely use your advice though, and make every scene that involves him dramatic and over the top


Loki in the Marvel movies is a straight up beguiler, right now to his spell list. He has quickblade proficiency for some reason, though. Don't know what he meant to do to Thor with 1d4 damage. :p

Yeah I am looking at Beguiler6/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter Mage 9/Nightmare Spinner 5 (adapting it to bypass immunity to mental effects)/X15
Will have to figure out the other 15 levels later, but I am really liking all this advice.

And Marvel Loki also had DR X/Hulk :smallbiggrin:

[Dromuthra]

I would also recommend a level of Shadow Adept, because it gives you a whole slew of shadow and illusion-based feats, including Insidious Magic, which means that people who try to use divinations (hello true seeing!) to break through your illusions have to make a caster level check rather than getting an automatic success.

[Azoth]

I have to recommend a Cleric dip to fuel Trickery devotion. Also refluff Vecna Blooded for him. Loki is known for using duplicates of himself to accomplish things. He is also the lone being in Norse Mythology that Heimdall can not see with his all seeing eye. I would also recommend throwing the Half Giant Template on him being half Jöutunar and all.

I would consider some Ur-Priest goodness on there to further represent the classic nature of Loki having mastered the magic of both the Jötunar and the Æsier respectively. Obviously, if you go Ur-Priest don't bother with the Cleric dip.

Unseen Seer is another route to go to help finish him out. Goes well with high skill, hard to pin down caster foes.

[Bullet06320]

rogue/ castor of some sort into arcane trickster is the base I would take, focusing heavy on illusion, transmutation and enchantment spells
I like the half giant idea

add the epic destiny from dragon 363 mythic shadow increase precision damage to the next die, constant greater invis, that you can suppress, some other nifty abilities that just seem fitting

[Red Fel]

Ooh, he's a god, right? So why not go for over-power? What about a gestalt Sorcerer/Warlock?

Both are comfortably Cha-based. Sorcerer gives you tons of spontaneous-casting fun. Warlock gives you some really potent passives, nasty tricks, and face abilities. Beguiling Influence gives you great social bonuses; Charm is good for manipulating the teeming masses; Devil's Whispers can be powerful too. With Warlock, you can turn invisible, fly, change others' shapes, and so forth. With Sorcerer, you can do pretty much everything else.

And Epic Warlocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) can get a bunch of neat stuff. Look at the Shadowmaster feat - as a standard action, you can create 80% real replicas of any Sor/Wiz conjuration spell 8th level or lower, which can be devastating when paired with the exact same spell only real - your victims can never tell whether they need to disbelieve that incoming fireball or not.

[Ortesk]

I would also recommend a level of Shadow Adept, because it gives you a whole slew of shadow and illusion-based feats, including Insidious Magic, which means that people who try to use divinations (hello true seeing!) to break through your illusions have to make a caster level check rather than getting an automatic success.

Awesome advice. I was worried about the true seeing, tbh. No self respecting epic character will not have it, and I had no clue how to trump it. Was gonna be silly if a level 40 "God" could have his most known powers defeated by a level 9 Cleric, you know?


I have to recommend a Cleric dip to fuel Trickery devotion. Also refluff Vecna Blooded for him. Loki is known for using duplicates of himself to accomplish things. He is also the lone being in Norse Mythology that Heimdall can not see with his all seeing eye. I would also recommend throwing the Half Giant Template on him being half Jöutunar and all.

I would consider some Ur-Priest goodness on there to further represent the classic nature of Loki having mastered the magic of both the Jötunar and the Æsier respectively. Obviously, if you go Ur-Priest don't bother with the Cleric dip.

Unseen Seer is another route to go to help finish him out. Goes well with high skill, hard to pin down caster foes.

I may pick up 10 levels in Ur-Priest, it seems the least intrusive route to pick up 9th level divine, why'll giving him 9th level arcane casting. It all also keeps his BAB pretty "Meh" for that level of play, which fits him. He could still take pretty much anyone in a melee battle, but his weakness would show against equal leveled beings (Who are essentially "Gods" anyhow)




Ooh, he's a god, right? So why not go for over-power? What about a gestalt Sorcerer/Warlock?

Both are comfortably Cha-based. Sorcerer gives you tons of spontaneous-casting fun. Warlock gives you some really potent passives, nasty tricks, and face abilities. Beguiling Influence gives you great social bonuses; Charm is good for manipulating the teeming masses; Devil's Whispers can be powerful too. With Warlock, you can turn invisible, fly, change others' shapes, and so forth. With Sorcerer, you can do pretty much everything else.

And Epic Warlocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) can get a bunch of neat stuff. Look at the Shadowmaster feat - as a standard action, you can create 80% real replicas of any Sor/Wiz conjuration spell 8th level or lower, which can be devastating when paired with the exact same spell only real - your victims can never tell whether they need to disbelieve that incoming fireball or not.

Honestly though, I really don't want to Gestalt him. He will have 5 levels on the party, and will have cherry picked levels/abilities. I just don't want him to have that huge of a bonus over players. My old age is making me a kinder DM, I suppose. But I will look at the warlock, never played one before (Usually I play a fighter or monk. keeps the group close to me in usefulness)

[Âmesang]

I attempted to stat out Loki, once, but it was mainly just taking the Deities and Demigods version and building upon it with epic rules and minor changes, such as changing some salient divine abilities and updating his spells to 3.5 (vanish became teleport object? How in the %&#$ was I ever supposed to know that?! :smalltongue:)

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/3e%20deity%20loki.doc

Granted, this is technically the opposite of what you're trying to do (60th-level greater deity versus 40th-level quasi deity), but hopefully there's something there that can be of use? Being that I stuck with 20 rogue/20 sorcerer, he's both overpowered and underpowered at the same time… especially since I'm the kind of guy who'd give an epic character Augmented Alchemy and Epic Poison Crafter (though he still can't craft Godsblood, oddly enough, but I don't think I was able to give him full ranks, either; there's only so many skill points!). No Ignore Material Components, either, so I may just have to rebuild him all over again…