Kender Thief

[JohnStone]

I will be playing in a Dragonlance game that will mimic the original War of the Lance saga. I want to play as a Kender thief, without being a Tasslehoff clone.

My first thing is I will actually be a professional thief...guild membership card included.
I also plan on being a bit more self aware than most kender (She won't walk up to a dragon to say hello, though she would probably try to steal his teeth while he's sleeping)

I am looking for roleplaying advice on how to play this without causing issues but still add humor and fun to the table.

Mechanically I am torn between multiple daggers/darts. Or a dedicated ranged build which i suppose a Hoopak would be ideal.

[bardo]

I will be playing in a Dragonlance game that will mimic the original War of the Lance saga. I want to play as a Kender thief, without being a Tasslehoff clone.

My first thing is I will actually be a professional thief...guild membership card included.
I also plan on being a bit more self aware than most kender (She won't walk up to a dragon to say hello, though she would probably try to steal his teeth while he's sleeping)

I am looking for roleplaying advice on how to play this without causing issues but still add humor and fun to the table.

Mechanically I am torn between multiple daggers/darts. Or a dedicated ranged build which i suppose a Hoopak would be ideal.

Step 1. Ask everybody at the table if it's okay for you to play a Kender thief.

Step 2. Play something that's not a Kender thief.

In the unlikely event that the table actually says maybe (they certainly won't say yes), work with the table to establish red lines your character will never ever cross. If you think you can still have fun within those limitations go for it. But in all likelihood, play something else. Maybe play a Kender that's not a thief. Maybe play a thief that's not a Kender.

Bardo.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Step 1. Ask everybody at the table if it's okay for you to play a Kender thief.

Step 2. Play something that's not a Kender thief.

GitP Forums: 100% hard truths, all for your own good.

[PoeticDwarf]

Step 1. Ask everybody at the table if it's okay for you to play a Kender thief.

Step 2. Play something that's not a Kender thief.

In the unlikely event that the table actually says maybe (they certainly won't say yes), work with the table to establish red lines your character will never ever cross. If you think you can still have fun within those limitations go for it. But in all likelihood, play something else. Maybe play a Kender that's not a thief. Maybe play a thief that's not a Kender.

Bardo.
I think if you know the party IRL a kender thief is ayt least fine

[JohnStone]

Thank you for the replies, I will note that I have already decided to play this character.

I was hoping for advice on how to play her. Maybe some examples of those red lines that should not be crossed. I would also love to hear some Positive anecdotes that i can use during my roleplay experience.

[kaoskonfety]

Kender Are Fine.

I said it.

And hilariously, I mean it.

Devoid of fear: not a problem
Maintaining a outlook of child like wonder: not a problem
Casual disregard for the idea of property: Play smart and recognise that even though no one OWNS the figthers sword he is WAY better with it than you. 'Borrowing' it to chop wood in town is fine, borrowing it before he challanges the BBEG, less fine. Similarly the wizards *smell* component pouch is less interesting than the wizard randomly rolled gold whistle trinket or jar of unknown beast teeth. Keep it fun for the *players* and you can quietly annoy their characters to no end.

The issue is players using this framework to troll the unholy hell out of other players. The same issue with Malkavians in Vampire the Masquerade and Chaotic Neutral as "whatever I wanna do" and any other clear excuse to act either "Crazy" and "Free spirited" as erratic and irritable or as 'whenever I get bored the party will suffer'. Its the same sourse as Lawful Moronic paladins and all the other flavours of class/race/alignment straight jacket.

If it helps, keep a tally for yourself to be "freaking useful" once or twice for each petty annoyance over each session. Quietly aquire a stuffed inventory of handy odds and ends (from not the party) and try to always have "that thing we need right now". Take a look at the components for your wizards spells and "happen" to have the knicknacks he might need when the group is arrested and striped of their *not slight of handed* possesions. Keep some sort of off-useful collection - maps, marbles, cookware, and make it clear that if the party has any of these they are in your possesion.

Have fun with them, not at their expence, and it should be fine.

[JumboWheat01]

I've never had the pleasure of the Kender, though they sound like stereotypical halflings on steroids.

[Psyren]

Thank you for the replies, I will note that I have already decided to play this character.

I was hoping for advice on how to play her. Maybe some examples of those red lines that should not be crossed. I would also love to hear some Positive anecdotes that i can use during my roleplay experience.

Positive anecdotes about kender are in short supply.

The problem is that the klepto aspect is either meaningless fluff (you purloin feathers, scraps of parchment, bits of string and other things the players don't track) or has mechanical impact and therefore quickly becomes irritating (weapons, potions, scrolls etc.) The GM saying "you dig through your pouch and don't find anything, the kender has it" gets old remarkably quickly.

I don't even know what you could steal in 5e given the dearth of magic items though.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Positive anecdotes about kender are in short supply.

To be fair, I'm playing a game with a klepto-kender right now that isn't bad at all. But he doesn't steal from the party. And, in fact, hates thieves (he doesn't see the contradiction there). I like that he loses an item for every one he takes, sometimes without even realising it (i.e. the DM tells him that an item is no longer where he left it). Easy come, easy go.

Of course, that isn't at all compatible with the OP's wish for a professional thief.

[ZX6Rob]

...

I am looking for roleplaying advice on how to play this without causing issues but still add humor and fun to the table.

...


Well, first and foremost, the thing to remember is the real metagame. That is, everyone is hanging out together for 3-5 hours per week (or what have you) under the assumption that they are going to play a cooperative game together. As such, that means that, whatever your character's proclivities, that character should still fulfill two requirements

1 - Provide a benefit or series of benefits to the party that help to justify your presence with the group, such that they are incentivized to have you in the group.
2 - Prevent yourself from performing actions that would cause them to overlook those benefits or cause the drawbacks inherent in your character's personality to outweigh the advantage in having you.

I'm taking a page from The Angry GM (http://theangrygm.com/ask-angry-i-stop-him-from-doing-that/) here, but he makes a great point in the linked article. In "real life", if there is a disruptive, thieving, or otherwise untrustworthy member of a group (such as an adventuring party), the members of the group can simply kick that person out. So, the first time your Kender steals something of any value that doesn't belong to her, she'd be out on her keister. If the group can't trust her, what incentive is there for them to keep her around?

But, in the game, you're all there to play together, so the party's paladin and cleric grumble and grump and look the other way, because they're being played by your friends, and if they kick you out of the group, then you don't get to play the game any more. That goes until it hits critical mass, and then there's an argument, and then no one is happy and the game falls apart.

So! How can we avoid this without neutering the character's concept and the... "fun" parts of playing a Kender? Well, Kaoskonfeti above had some great suggestions, most of which involve dialing the stereotype back from 11 to about 6. For instance, Kender have a childlike sense of wonder that informs their worldview. Well, that's fine and good, and offers some fun, but remember that "childlike" can cover anything from toddler to about 12 years old. An annoying Kender skews toward a younger viewpoint -- after all, "kids say the darndest things," but by 10 or 11, most kids have a sense of when to keep their mouths shut or their hands to themselves. Not always, obviously, because kids, but they can be extremely shrewd and smart, especially when they're underestimated. Play with unattended items in shops, pick up books and leaf through them when you're bored, but don't become destructive and temper those urges when you or the party is in danger -- after all, child-like wonder doesn't mean ADD, and when lives are on the line, you will probably focus on those whom you care most about! Time enough to examine that shiny magic item later.

How about fearlessness? Well, there's fearless, and then there's stupid, and they don't have to be the same thing. It's the difference between, "I'm not scared of any ol' dragon!" while charging in headlong, a la a certain infamous Mr. Jenkins, and "I'm not scared of any ol' dragon! Come on, we can take 'im together!" while you encourage your team to gear up for what is sure to be a grand battle. Spend time talking up how you're going to gut the beast while his back is turned, talk yourself up, whatever you have to do, but recognize that bravery doesn't mean foolhardiness. You may not be scared, but you know when you're out of your league and need to consider something other than direct confrontation. In social contexts, you may try to intimidate people bigger than you, especially when they threaten your friends, but as a player, keep an eye on the mood of the room -- if your fellow players aren't looking for a confrontation, don't force one.

Then there's the "borrowing", the bane of many a party member of a Kender. Honestly, kaoskonfety has it here -- if your light fingers end up benefitting the party more often than not, they're likely to be more forgiving of your proclivities. Especially when you start the game, try confining your sticky fingers to NPCs for a session or two, where you can have some fun without necessarily putting the party at risk. In downtime, you can describe how you pick up something that fell from the pack of the fighter as he's cleaning his weapon, and then ask him about it -- why he has it and what it means to him. This provides a fun little chance for some character building, and it doesn't feel so much like you're actively stealing things, so much as just trying to get to know your companions. Recognize that, even if you do take something to look it over or inspect it, you should probably put it back before the night's rest is over -- the moment that you've taken something that puts the party in a disadvantageous position, you've spent your good-will. Kender may have no real concept of property or ownership, but would also recognize that their allies rely on having their tools and weapons at hand, and no matter how fascinating those things are, they are better off in the hands of those who use them best than they are in yours.

Ultimately, you should make sure your group is well aware of how you intend to play the character, and you should try to hew closely to erring on the side of caution until you have built up a lot of trust and history with the group. If you're ever asking, "how can I do something to annoy the party, but that won't get them to kick me out," you're asking the wrong question. It's hard to see the humor in a situation in which you're the butt of the joke, and the fighter who finds himself without his longsword because you wanted to "borrow" it for a while isn't going to think the situation is very funny when the group is attacked.

[JohnStone]

wow that was extremely helpful...Thank you. You hit on pretty much everything I wanted to know.

Perhaps the greatest part of this answer is that from now on when someone googles advice on playing a Kender they will find this thread. instead of the ones i have already viewed that had little to no advice...Thank you

[Safety Sword]

The best reason to be a Kender is the "taunting".

You want to write a big long list of hilarious insults to hurl at your foes.

[JumboWheat01]

The best reason to be a Kender is the "taunting".

You want to write a big long list of hilarious insults to hurl at your foes.

...I'm gonna have to do that with one of my characters. And have it played in-game as him actually unrolling a scroll full of said insults whenever he needs to pick the right one to hurl.

[Safety Sword]

...I'm gonna have to do that with one of my characters. And have it played in-game as him actually unrolling a scroll full of said insults whenever he needs to pick the right one to hurl.

You throw the scroll at them rolled up and they unfurl it, read it, get angry and attack you.

Working as intended.

[ZX6Rob]

wow that was extremely helpful...Thank you. You hit on pretty much everything I wanted to know.

Perhaps the greatest part of this answer is that from now on when someone googles advice on playing a Kender they will find this thread. instead of the ones i have already viewed that had little to no advice...Thank you

Happy that I could be of some help. Come back in a few weeks and post something about your experiences -- I'm curious to see how it plays out in real life!

[Belac93]

You throw the scroll at them rolled up and they unfurl it, read it, get angry and attack you.

Working as intended.

Agreed. That would be awesome.

[JumboWheat01]

You throw the scroll at them rolled up and they unfurl it, read it, get angry and attack you.

Working as intended.


Agreed. That would be awesome.

Now I really need to do this. It's just too funny to pass up.

[DivisibleByZero]

To be fair, I'm playing a game with a klepto-kender right now that isn't bad at all. But he doesn't steal from the party. And, in fact, hates thieves (he doesn't see the contradiction there). I like that he loses an item for every one he takes, sometimes without even realising it (i.e. the DM tells him that an item is no longer where he left it). Easy come, easy go.

Of course, that isn't at all compatible with the OP's wish for a professional thief.

To be fair, you just described a kender being played correctly. You just described a kender being played the way that they were intended to be played. You just described a kender being played as they were described in the Dragonlance campaign books back when a racial entry was not one or two pages, but fully comprehensive.
They're paradoxical in that they despise thievery, but have no concept of ownership, so they are kleptomaniacs who despise thievery.
Kudos to your friend for doing it right.
And kudos to your DM for playing along as he should with the one in/one out game (because that's exactly how it happens with kender).

The problem that people have with kender aren't a problem with kender. The problem people have with kender is actually a problem with the kender's player, not the kender's race.

[Psyren]

The problem that people have with kender aren't a problem with kender. The problem people have with kender is actually a problem with the kender's player, not the kender's race.

If a system or process so routinely/disproportionately leads people down the wrong path when using it though, that can be a fault of how that system or process is designed. Yes, user error plays a role and is the player's (and enabling GM's) fault, but the designer's job is to provide the necessary safeguards and guidance to minimize that as much as possible.

For example, no statblock for Kender I've ever seen includes a line like "never steal from the party." And it provides no guidance to the GM to say "here is how/when you can tell the kender player that he lost {item}." They also provide no guidance that says "Kender kleptomania is beneficial to the party in the following ways..." There isn't even a guideline along the lines of "every 3 hours, roll on {table} to see what the Kender has purloined without realizing it, and from who." Any of that design would help improve their rap.

If the devs aren't willing to put in the effort to make kender more palatable, they shouldn't be surprised when players continue to ban them left and right.

[Segev]

The trouble with kender does tend to be the players. They see "kleptomaniac" and never actually pay attention to what the fluff of the race says that means, apparently. The stories I most often hear involve the kender stealing the most valuable loot the other PCs have, and other such selfish, jerk-thief shenanigans, and trying to hide behind "but my race made me do it, and you're being mean when you call me on it!"

Played properly, kender players might well have some control over what is stolen...but they also should hand a d20 to the DM and ask him to just roll their pickpocketing skill (whatever it is in whatever edition they're being run) whenever the DM thinks there's something "cool" or "interesting" (read: shiny and distracting) that the Kender might have "fall into his bag."

The Kender examples we have periodically pull out their bags to look at their "treasures." And those "treasures" can be things that are silly trinkets (the feathers and rocks and colorful leaves), or can be possessions of other people (including the fighter's sword-polish or the cleric's shaving mirror), or can, occasionally, be things of real value. But they eagerly show these to their friends, and if a friend identifies something as his, they willingly return it. Sometimes with an obnoxious (even though it's meant to be endearing) scolding about being more careful with their things, and how good it is that the kender found it or it'd be lost, but still, they return it. With buy-in from the other players that this is an "endearing" trait of their little friend, it is workable.

[gfishfunk]

Pick something non-valuable to steal as a compulsion. Stealing anything else is distasteful, but you can do it.

I recommend food: your Kender thief steals food from everyone, because s/he loves different foods and tastes. Magical items? Can you even COOK with those?

[Joe dirt]

Kenders are well known to be sticky fingered... just have big fighter grab him by ankles and dump out his loot once in a while to find out what he has got... actually because they are so well known they might be the worse theives because they would be accused even if they didnt do it

[ProphetSword]

The best way to play a Kender is to do it the way that was described in the playtest rules for 5e. This is how it was officially done.

In the playtest rules, Kender don't steal...they acquired things. They do it without any conscious thought, so there's no shenanigans to make people mad at you.

Mechanically, it worked like this: The kender carries a bag. At any point, the kender can take 1 full minute to search the bag for any non-magical item that they want. They roll a 1d4, and on a roll of 4, the item is in there. Otherwise, they must wait a full 24 hours before searching for that or a similar item again.

So, instead of stealing things and acting like idiots, the kender instead becomes a useful member of the party. Need a blue ribbon to tie around an arrow? Maybe the kender picked one up. Need some candle wax? Maybe the kender has some in his bag. Need a sewing needle? Maybe you'll be in luck and the kender will give you one.

We had a kender in our game during the playtest, and this part was awesome. There were no incidents of the character stealing anything; because even he didn't know if he had something until he rolled...and then he would roleplay and make up something on the spot about how he got the item.

Example: The party wanted to convince some thugs that they had the deed to a castle. Kender thought he might have a deed of some kind and rolled. A minute later, he flashes a deed at the thugs and convinces them that he is the rightful owner. The player decided it was actually a deed to a house in another city that he pocketed from some guy on the street a few months back.

Now, for the "thief" part of your character, that's totally on you. But, if you play the kender in the way I describe, nobody will hate you.

[RedMage125]

Minor note here, but given kenders' outlook on person property, should not a kender "thief" properly be called a "handler"?

[Keltest]

Minor note here, but given kenders' outlook on person property, should not a kender "thief" properly be called a "handler"?

No. Kender do recognize the concept of theft. Almost all of the time, the genuinely aren't aware that they have the items that they grabbed until well after the fact because they have such short attention spans. They like picking up and looking at things, but if something distracts them, they'll take it with them to go look at the new shiny thing. If someone calls a handler out on taking stuff, they'll happily return it.

A thief on the other hand deliberately takes things and has no concern for returning stolen property. Which brings me to my advice: Be aware of what you have taken and try and return it to the party member who owns it. You will end up with some of their stuff. Its what kender do. But if you know its theirs, and that you have it, you are perfectly capable of putting it back where it came from when you discover you handled it.

[RedMage125]

Weren't kender "rogues" or "thieves" in previous editions called "handlers" though?

[Safety Sword]

Weren't kender "rogues" or "thieves" in previous editions called "handlers" though?

Correct. Specifically to distinguish them from rogues and thieves.

[JohnStone]

This thread has turned into a really great discussion. A lot of good replies. I would say I definitely have a handle on the personality of my Kender, thanks to all that helped there. However I am still having trouble with one aspect...

"Handling vs Stealing." Not that I don't understand the difference, we have done a great job establishing that. The problem lies in establishing a difference in the view of the character.
The Thieves guild could help with this as they have established rules about theft. only steal from the rich don't steal from members, that sort of thing. Perhaps I could follow those rules, being driven by a desire to succeed in the act and proving my greatness rather than greed. Then I would be free to "handle" to my heart's content using some of the concepts discussed in this thread.

On the subject of handling I like the 1d4 chance to succeed. You mentioned this in a "playtest" I was not aware of any official rulings for Kender, I was just using lightfoot halfling. A link to the Race would be very helpful.

If there is an official race is there an official Hoopak too? I am still considering fighting styles I am leaning toward throwing knives but the range is pitiful.

[saeval]

at work otherwise I'd hunt for the playtest kender for you. if nobody posts it, I will later. Not sure if it covered the Hoopak's stats... but its basically a Small Creature's Sling/Staff/Spear, with a windhole that creates noise when you twirl it.

[Psyren]

Mechanically, it worked like this: The kender carries a bag. At any point, the kender can take 1 full minute to search the bag for any non-magical item that they want. They roll a 1d4, and on a roll of 4, the item is in there. Otherwise, they must wait a full 24 hours before searching for that or a similar item again.

"THERE'S my 100ft. ladder!"

[coredump]

The problem that people have with kender aren't a problem with kender. The problem people have with kender is actually a problem with the kender's player, not the kender's race.

100% accurate. Heck, lets call it 200% accurate.



For example, no statblock for Kender I've ever seen includes a line like "never steal from the party." I am sorry, but that is a crock. No where in the Thief/rogue description does its say "never steal from the party" or "Never backstab a party member"
No where in the Wizard description does it say "Never cast fireball and fry your teammates"
Never in the Fighter description does it say "When you Whirlwind, make sure to not attack your teammates"

If a *player* needs to be told to not mess with their own party....that is the *Players* fault.



And it provides no guidance to the GM to say "here is how/when you can tell the kender player that he lost {item}." Where the guidance to the DM on how to deal with a thief that steals from the party, or a wizard that keeps fireballing them?


They also provide no guidance that says "Kender kleptomania is beneficial to the party in the following ways..." There isn't even a guideline along the lines of "every 3 hours, roll on {table} to see what the Kender has purloined without realizing it, and from who." Any of that design would help improve their rap. That would take a very flavorful and fun race with a *ton* of RP potential, and reduce it down to s series of bland and boring dice rolls..... Sorry, but that would be a terrible 'solution'.
How about just telling the player "Hey, stop being a jerk"

[coredump]

I am looking for roleplaying advice on how to play this without causing issues but still add humor and fun to the table.
.

I played a Kender thief for (IIRC) almost 2 years, and it was a blast and everyone had fun.
The key for me (us) was to determine his motivating factors. It was a long time ago, so not sure which of these were based on the edition, the Kender DnD description, the books, or something else.
1) He had next to know understanding/appreciation of 'ownership'. In Kender society everything was pretty open.
2) Since you never really owned anything, the only reason to 'protect' it (lock, traps, etc) was as a 'game' to challenge others to go and get it.
3) He liked to overcome such 'challenges'.
4) He would take things from others...usually shiny things. (This *included* party members, on a fairly regular basis)
5) He was very loyal and devoted to his friends.


Now lets remember... if 'ownership' is not really a thing.... or if its just 'no big deal'...that works *both* ways.

Scene 1:
Fighter BoB: <Wants to buy new +2 sword, does into his pouch, discovers most gems are there, but all the rubies and Emeralds are 'missing'.> "Hey (Kender) Talon, I was hoping to buy a new awesome sword today. Do you have any gems I could borrow?
Kender Talon: "No problem, I have a bunch of Rubies that I really like, but don't really need. So if you want them you can just have them."

Basically, much of the party wealth would end up in my possession....but no one had to accuse me of stealing, either 1) ask for an item 'back', or 2) just ask for the item and I would give it to them, or 3) Just ask for the equivalent.

Scene 1 redux:
Fighter Bob:"Hey (Kender) Talon, I was hoping to buy a new awesome sword today. Do you have any gems I could borrow?
Kender Talon: "No problem, I have some diamonds that aren't as pretty as I thought... you can have them"
Mage Marion: "What... thats where my diamonds went!"

Other times I would just buy the item for him, since I 'just happened' to have more money than he did.


The flip side was dealing with stores.... walking into a magic shop meant they had to keep an eye on me because there were a lot of 'challenges' there (Locks, traps, etc) just waiting for an intrepid Kender to defeat.... so they go to RP distracting me and getting me to help them in other ways.


Now, just don't be a jerk. Don't 'just happen' to steal the money or magic and leave it somewhere. Don't take the fighters sword right before a big fight. Don't use the mage's components for fighting bait. Make sure the stealing you are doing can be 'undone'.

[Safety Sword]

I played a Kender thief for (IIRC) almost 2 years, and it was a blast and everyone had fun.
The key for me (us) was to determine his motivating factors. It was a long time ago, so not sure which of these were based on the edition, the Kender DnD description, the books, or something else.
1) He had next to know understanding/appreciation of 'ownership'. In Kender society everything was pretty open.
2) Since you never really owned anything, the only reason to 'protect' it (lock, traps, etc) was as a 'game' to challenge others to go and get it.
3) He liked to overcome such 'challenges'.
4) He would take things from others...usually shiny things. (This *included* party members, on a fairly regular basis)
5) He was very loyal and devoted to his friends.


Now lets remember... if 'ownership' is not really a thing.... or if its just 'no big deal'...that works *both* ways.

Scene 1:
Fighter BoB: <Wants to buy new +2 sword, does into his pouch, discovers most gems are there, but all the rubies and Emeralds are 'missing'.> "Hey (Kender) Talon, I was hoping to buy a new awesome sword today. Do you have any gems I could borrow?
Kender Talon: "No problem, I have a bunch of Rubies that I really like, but don't really need. So if you want them you can just have them."

Basically, much of the party wealth would end up in my possession....but no one had to accuse me of stealing, either 1) ask for an item 'back', or 2) just ask for the item and I would give it to them, or 3) Just ask for the equivalent.

Scene 1 redux:
Fighter Bob:"Hey (Kender) Talon, I was hoping to buy a new awesome sword today. Do you have any gems I could borrow?
Kender Talon: "No problem, I have some diamonds that aren't as pretty as I thought... you can have them"
Mage Marion: "What... thats where my diamonds went!"

Other times I would just buy the item for him, since I 'just happened' to have more money than he did.


The flip side was dealing with stores.... walking into a magic shop meant they had to keep an eye on me because there were a lot of 'challenges' there (Locks, traps, etc) just waiting for an intrepid Kender to defeat.... so they go to RP distracting me and getting me to help them in other ways.


Now, just don't be a jerk. Don't 'just happen' to steal the money or magic and leave it somewhere. Don't take the fighters sword right before a big fight. Don't use the mage's components for fighting bait. Make sure the stealing you are doing can be 'undone'.

Also remember that Kender "handle" items due to interest, not due to value. They are likely to take something pretty and valueless over something dull and valuable. As coredump said, even if the Kender has your valuables, they're very likely to still have them or to have swapped them with something else.

So when you find the tin brooch in your gem pouch, it's pretty easy to track your diamond back to the Kender. Party members could probably ask for their stuff back and would get it.

My favourite comeback when I played a Kender was "I was just holding onto it, you seem to misplace your things a lot. See?"