PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class YANI - Yet Another Ninja Improvement (input welcomed)



NevinPL
2016-04-12, 03:26 PM
This time I took a different approach, and try to use as much of existing material as I could, and not creating it. IMO it worked out quite nice.



YANI - Yet Another Ninja Improvement


Adventures: As in Complete Adventurer.
Characteristics: As in Complete Adventurer.
Alignment: As in Complete Adventurer.
Religion: As in Complete Adventurer.
Background: As in Complete Adventurer.
Races: As in Complete Adventurer.
Other Classes: As in Complete Adventurer.
Role: As in Complete Adventurer.



Game rule information:


Abilities: As in Complete Adventurer.
Alignment: As in Complete Adventurer.
Hit Die: As in Complete Adventurer.
Starting Gold: As in Complete Adventurer.

Class Skills
As in Complete Adventurer, with the following changes:
Remove Concentration, Swim.
Add Decipher Script (INT), Forgery (INT), Knowledge (local) (INT), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (INT),
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.




Saves



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
AC
Bonus
Special


1st
+0
+0
+2
+0
+0
AC Bonus, Chi Modifier, Ki Power, Ninjutsu, Trapfinding


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+0
+0
Evasion, Great leap, Speed climb, Shadowy sight (low-light vision)


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+1
+0
Ninjutsu, Grasshopper (+5, 20ft), Sneak attack +1d6



4th
+3
+1
+4
+1
+1
Ghost step (invisible), Ki dodge (20%), Shadowy sight (darkvision)


5th
+3
+1
+4
+1
+1
Ninjutsu, Shadow manipulation (expand), Uncanny dodge,


6th
+4
+2
+5
+2
+1
Ghost step (gaseous), Ki dodge (50%), Sneak attack +2d6


7th
+5
+2
+5
+2
+1
Ghost Strike (touch), Ninjutsu (two), Shadow manipulation (create)


8th
+6/+1
+2
+6
+2
+2
Ghost mind, Grasshopper (+10, 30ft), Obfuscate (deprivation)


9th
+6/+1
+3
+6
+3
+2
Improved Uncanny Dodge, Ninjutsu, Sneak attack +3d6,


10th
+7/+2
+3
+7
+3
+2
Ghost step (ethereal), Ghost Strike (ethereal), Improved Evasion


11th
+8/+3
+3
+7
+3
+2
Ninjutsu


12th
+9/+4
+4
+8
+4
+3
Sneak attack +4d6


13th
+9/+4
+4
+8
+4
+3
Grasshopper(+15, 40ft), Ninjutsu (two)


14th
+10/+5
+4
+9
+4
+3
Ghost Walk, Obfuscate (solipsism)


15th
+11/+6/+1
+5
+9
+5
+3
Ninjutsu, Sneak attack +5d6


16th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+5
+4



17th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+10
+5
+4
Ninjutsu,


18th
+13+8/+3
+6
+11
+6
+4
Grasshopper (+20, 50ft), Sneak attack +6d6


19th
+14/+9/+4
+6
+11
+6
+4
Ninjutsu (two)


20th
+15/+10/+5
+6
+12
+6
+5




Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus their signature weapon ninja-to, and bolas, hand crossbow, kukri, kusari-gama (OA\DMG), nekode (OA), nunchaku, sai, sap, shortbow, shuriken.
Ninja are also proficient with light armors, but not with shields.
If ninja uses armor heavier than light, or has load heavier than light, he loses his AC Bonus, and other abilities than depend on the Ki Power.

AC Bonus (Ex): Ninja adds indicated bonus (if any) to his Armor Class. This ability does not stack with the monk’s AC bonus.
This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when a ninja is flat-footed. The character loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless.

Chi Modifier (Su): Ninja's quasi magical abilities are powered by his life, spiritual force - Chi. The Chi Modifier is the mechanical representation of that concept. It's equal to half ninja's level.

Ki Power (Su): Ninja can use his spiritual force to perform amazing feats.
Ninja can use his Ki powers a number of times per day equal to (2 * his Chi modifier) + his Wis modifier.
Ki powers can only be used if ninja is wearing light armor and is unencumbered.
As long as ninja has at least one daily use of Ki Power remaining, he gains a +2 bonus on his Reflex saves, and a 10 feet movement increase. These bonuses improve by +2 and +10 feet respectively, at 9th, and 19th level.
Ninja’s ki powers are: Ghost Step, Ki Dodge, Shadow manipulation, Ghost Strike, Obfuscate, Ghost Walk.

Ninjutsu: All ninja’s share the basic abilities like Evasion, or Speed Climb, but also train in nine ninja disciplines that epitome the shadow warrior, by choosing the appropriate feats.
At first level ninja chooses two feats. Later he chooses one, or two (indicated in the table above).
You can “mix and match” feats from different disciplines, but you need to meet their prerequisites, although if you have two feats from one discipline, you can disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from that same discipline.

Example:
Having two feats from Bōryaku discipline (e.g. Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative), allows you to disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from Bōryaku discipline. Having four feats, lets you disregard two feat prerequisites, and having all the feats from one discipline, grants you additional use of Ki Power per day.
Feats listed in the disciplines, but gained in other ways, don’t count in either case.
The nine ninja disciplines, and their corresponding feats, are as follows:

Ansatsujutsu - assassination
Deadly Precision (XPH), Death Blow (CAd), Master Of Poisons (DotU), Poison Immunity (BoVD\CoR), Telling Blow (PHB II), Venomous Strike, (DotU).
Master Of Poisons can be substituted as a requirement instead of Poison Use, Improved Poison Use.
Bōryaku – tactics
Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Quick Draw, Spring Attack.
Chijutsu – Ki
Enduring Ki (CS), Expanded Ki Pool (CS), Greater Ki Focus*, Ki Focus*, Ki Restoration*, Ki Synergy*.
Enduring Ki doubles the base duration of a ki power.
* - new feats described at the end.
Hensōjutsu – disguise, impersonation, and infiltration
Deceitful, Investigator, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Quick Reconnoiter (CAd), Track.
Intonjutsu – escaping, concealment and stealth
Agile, Combat Acrobat (PHB II), Cunning Evasion (PHB II), Improved Diversion (CAd), Spectral Skirmisher (PHB II), Stealthy.
Kenjutsu – bladed weapons
Flick of the Wrist (CW), Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Power Critical (CW), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.
Weapon depended feats, can only be taken in conjunction with a bladed weapon like Kusari-gama, Ninja-to or Sai.
Kyorijutsu – ranged weapons
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting (CW), Shot on the Run, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Weapon depended feats, can only be taken in conjunction with a ranged weapon like bow, or shuriken.
Seishinteki kyōyō – spiritual refinement
Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Darkstalker (LoM), Eyes In The Back Of Your Head (CW), Improved Disarm, Open Minded (Cad\XPH)
Taijutsu – unarmed combat
Choke Hold (OA), Fists of Iron (OA), Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHB II).

If a class level other than ninja is required, use ninja level on a 1:1 basis (need fighter level 8th, ninja level 8th can take).

Ninja has a group of nine "disciplines", that point to, improve, etc., some of archetypal ninja abilities, both based IRL, and made up by me for this class. So we have "Ansatsujutsu - assassination", "Bōryaku – tactics", and so on.

Each discipline consists of six feats. At level 1 you pick 2 of those feats, from any discipline you like, if you meet the prerequisites of those feats. But having two feats from one discipline (for example Dodge, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics), allows you to disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats, but only from that same discipline (in this case Bōryaku – tactics). Only feat prerequisites, and only in other feats from that same discipline. Not level, ability score, or other prerequisites. Not from feats in other disciplines, or completely outside ninjutsu feat list, not from feats listed in those disciplines, but gained in other ways, like being at first level, bonus racial, class feat, or by default gaining level feat acquisition.

Having 4 feats, lets you disregard 2 feat prerequisite.

"Completing" the whole discipline (by acquiring via Ninjutsu all of six feats in said discipline), grants extra one ki power use per day.

Example:
You start at first level as an elf. You get the default feat. Lets leave it alone for now.

From ninja class, you get 2 feats you choose from the list under the Ninjutsu entry.
So you can choose Master Of Poisons from the Ansatsujutsu - assassination discipline, Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics. Or 1 from Ansatsujutsu, and 1 from Taijutsu, or all 2 from one discipline, or whatever you want, and meet the prerequisites.
Now, if you choose two from the same discipline, say Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics, you could disregard one feat prerequisite, in other feats from that same discipline, and next time you acquire feats through ninjutsu, take Mobility, provided you meet its Dex requirement. Why ? You have two feats from one discipline (Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku), so you can disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from that same discipline (Mobility is also from Bōryaku, and you're disregarding its feat prerequisite of Dodge).

Now lets get back to that feat we left alone in the begging. It doesn't count for the purpose of Ninjutsu "bonuses" (prerequisite ignoring, bonus Ki power uses), even if they're exactly the same.
So if you had Combat Reflexes from Ninjutsu, but Improved Initiative from being at first level, you couldn't gain Mobility through Ninjutsu, because you have only one feat through ninjutsu (Combat Reflexes), and you need two to disregard it.

On later levels you get one new ninjutsu feat, unless its noted as: "Ninjutsu (two)". then you get obviously two.

If this block of text looks mind boggling, or something, think of it like this:
You're training running, so running, and activities that have running in them (like football), come easier to you (hence the ignoring of some prerequisites).
But to be a good football player, you need more than just being able to run (hence the limitation of the said ignoring).

TL;DR
Ninjutsu gives you a bunch of bonus feats grouped into 9 thematic subgroups. Think of them as paths.
Ninjutsu feats count as Ninjutsu feats, only if they were acquired though Ninjutsu. So does bonuses they trigger.
Staying on the path (acquiring feats from one discipline), gets rewarded (prerequisite ignoring)
Completing the path (acquiring all the feats from one discipline), gets rewarded extra (the bonus Ki power use).

Trapfinding (Ex): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer.

Evasion (Ex): As Monk’s ability of the same name.

Great Leap (Ex): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, but ninja can use it while wearing light armor.

Speed Climb (Ex): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, but ninja can use it while wearing light armor.

Shadowy sight (Su): At 2th level, a ninja gains Low-light Vision. If he already has Low-light Vision (as a race, or class ability), he gains Superior low-light vision (see four times as far) instead.
At 3th level and later, ninja gains Superior low-light vision (see four times as far) instead. If he already has Superior low-light vision, use one with better values.
At 4th level, a ninja gains darkvision up to 60 feet. If he already has darkvision, use one with better values.
At 6th level and later, ninja gains the ability to see in darkness, even magical ones, up to 90 feet. If he already can see in magical darkness, use one with better values.

Sneak Attack: As Rogue's ability of the same name.

Grasshopper (Ex): Ninja of 3rd level gains a +5 bonus to Jump checks, and doesn’t take falling damage if the distance was no greater than 20 feet.
These values increase by +5 and +10 feet every five levels thereafter.

Ghost Step (Su): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, with the following changes:

duration (in rounds), is always equal to Ninja's Chi modifier,
at 6th level ninja can become a shadowy cloud, similar to the effect of Gaseous Form spell, with following changes,
flying speed is equal to half ninja’s speed,
in area of shadowy illumination it also grants concealment,
this form doesn’t force ninja to lose the effects of his supernatural abilities.
at 10th level this ability works like the default ethereal Ghost Step from Complete Adventurer.


Ki Dodge (Su): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, with the following changes:

using this ability is a immediate action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity,
you can use it even when flat-footed,
at 6th level this ability grants 50% miss chance, but the concealment degree doesn’t change.


Shadow manipulation (Su): At 5th level ninja can spend one daily use of his ki power as a standard action, to expand (in size and\or severity), or diminish area of existing natural darkness. Shadowy illumination becomes darkness. Darkness becomes shadowy illumination, and shadowy illumination becomes normal light.
Single use of this ability, affects area in patches of 10 feet/Chi modifier (minimum 10) in direction of ninja’s choosing, for a number of minutes equal to his level. One “patch” of darkness can’t be affected more times than ninja's Chi modifier.
From 7th level ninja can affect non-natural darkness, or create one similar to Darkness spell, but it’s targeted at a point in space, and its duration is equal to 1 minute/ninja level.
For interactions with light, darkness spells, etc., up to level 5 it interacts as natural light, or darkness. From level 7, it interacts like magical (threat as Daylight, Deeper Darkness).

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Rogue's ability of the same name.

Ghost Strike (Su): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, with the following changes:

activating the ghost strike ability is a swift action, that does not provoke attacks of opportunity,
at 7th level this ability allows ninja to make his next single attack, a touch attack,
at 10th level this ability works like the default Ghost Strike from Complete Adventurer.


While activating this ability and spending 2 additional Ki power uses, the ninja can apply the benefits of this ability to one additional attack. Spending 3 uses, to additional 2 attacks, and spending 5, to affect all attacks in one round.

Ghost Mind (Su): As in Ninja entry in Complete Adventurer, with the level change presented in table earlier.

Obfuscate (Su): Ninja of 8th level can spend one daily use of his Ki power as a standard action, to cloud the minds of others in a way similar to Sensory deprivation spell (SpC).
From level 14th, he can choose to affect his target like in Solipsism spell (SpC) instead.
Saving throw to resist, in both cases is equal to 10 + ninja's Chi modifier + his Wis modifier, and the duration is calculated like you were a sorcerer/wizard of your ninja level.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As Rogue's ability of the same name.
The level requirements for flanking are counted like ninja was a rogue of his ninja level.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As Monk’s ability of the same name.

Ghost Walk (Su): A 14th-level ninja can spend two daily uses of his ki power as a standard action, to gain benefits of Plane Shift spell, but transportation is limited only to and from the Ethereal Plane, Material Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and he can only bring one other creature with him.


GREATER KI FOCUS [CHI]
Your Ki powers are much harder to resist.
Prerequisites: Ki power, Ki Focus
Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against your Ki powers.
This bonus stacks with the bonus from Ki Focus.

KI FOCUS [CHI]
Your Ki powers are harder to resist.
Prerequisites: Ki power.
Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against your Ki powers.

KI RESTORATION [CHI]
You’ve learned to channel your Ki power to gain various healing effects.
Prerequisites: Ninja level 5.
Benefit: By spending ki power uses, as a standard action, ninja can gain the benefit of the following
1 use - Cure Moderate Wounds,
2 uses - Delay poison,
3 uses - Restoration, Lesser.
Where applicable, caster level is equal to ninja’s level.

KI SYNERGY [CHI]
You’ve learned to
Prerequisites: Ki power,
Benefit: For every Ki\Chi feat (a feat that adds, uses, etc. your Ki power) you posses (this feat included), you gain one additional daily use of your ki power.


Ninja-to: just like katana is an iconic samurai sword, so is ninja’s ninja-to. It’s a straight, one edged sword, about 20 inches long.
Compared to katana it looks crude, but in skilled hands, it’s effective and very deadly.


Ninja-to (martial light melee weapon)


Cost
Dmg (S)
Dmg (M)
Critical
Range Increment
Weight
Type



15 gp

1d4+1

1d6+1

x3

-

1.5 lbs

Piercing or slashing



Human Ninja Starting Package
Armor: Studded leather (+3 AC, armor check penalty –1, speed 30 ft., 20 lb.).
Weapons: Ninja-to (1d6+1, crit ×3, 1.5lb, light, piercing or slashing).
20 Shuriken (1d2 crit ×2 range inc. 10 ft. 1/2 lb. piercing)
Skill Selection: Pick a number of skills equal to 8 + Int modifier.



Skill
Ranks
Ability
Armor Check Penalty


Hide
4
Dex
-1


Move Silently
4
Dex
-1


Listen
4
Wis



Spot
4
Wis



Search
4
Int



Disable Device
4
Int



Open Lock
4
Dex



Climb
4
Str
-1


Decipher Script
4
Int



Gather Information
4
Cha




Feat: Run.
Bonus Feat (Human): Lightning reflexes.
Gear: Backpack with waterskin, one day’s trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel. Thieves’ tools.
Gold: 2d4 gp.


Pdf version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2vico83ssvxi6hw/YANI%20-%20Yet%20Another%20Ninja%20Improvement%20v1.1.pdf? dl=1

NevinPL
2016-04-12, 03:29 PM
Reserved for FAQ (probably)
Changelog (why I always forget about changelog...)

v1.1

removed Concentration from class skills,
increased skill points,
changed Chi modifier,
moved Evasion to second level, added improved one as a standalone,
changed Ki uses,
changed the number of starting ninjutsu feats, and other bits,
changed how Shadowy sight works,
added levels to Shadowy manipulation,
changed Obfuscate to reflect new Chi modifier,
added Improved Uncanny Dodge as "standalone",
typo here and there,

NevinPL
2016-04-12, 03:31 PM
Reserved for additional stuff (maybe).

GnomeWorks
2016-04-14, 10:09 PM
Your {/indent} tags are messing up your post.

NevinPL
2016-04-15, 02:37 AM
Your {/indent} tags are messing up your post.
I thought it looked "funny", but I got a bucket-load of plugins that sometimes mess up websites, so thought it's just me :D
Thank you.

NevinPL
2016-04-19, 11:09 AM
If no input was because of some unwritten rule like: " no table, no help", it's fixed now :)

GnomeWorks
2016-04-20, 12:08 AM
You're not going to like this.


Evasion

Evasion at first level. You know this is too good. Why would you do this.


At 10th level and later, Ninja can spend one daily use of his ki power as a full-round action, to gain the benefits of Improved Evasion for 24 hours instead. This Improved Evasion works exactly like the monk one.

Fiddly and dumb. If it's a 24-hour buff, just give it to them. Rogues can get this, monks can get this, no one cares. There's no reason to spend a daily resource on something that a character is just going to turn on all the time anyway.


As long as ninja has at least one daily use of Ki Power remaining, he gains a +2 bonus on his Reflex safes, and a 10 feet movement increase. These bonuses improve by +2 and +10 feet respectively, at 9th, and 19th level.

Fiddly. At 9th, the +2 increase to Reflex might still be noticed. At 19th, it's rocket tag all the way down, and a piddly +2 is not going to save you.

Movement speed increases... pretty much same deal, except that at 9th if you're still relying on bog-standard walking around on the ground, things are not going well for you. So no one should care.


but also train in nine ninja disciplines that epitome the shadow warrior, by choosing the appropriate feats

Oh this is just going to a bad place in a hurry.


At first level ninja chooses number of feats equal to his Wisdom modifier + 2 (minimum 2). Later he chooses one, or two (indicated in the table above).
You can “mix and match” feats from different disciplines, but you need to meet their prerequisites, although if you have two feats from one discipline, you can disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from that same discipline.

If you made the "Ninjutsu" feats a separate column, this may come off less horribly. At it stands, this sounds incredibly... oh for, and you do this at first level? Seriously. This gaming tech is old enough to drive. It does not take much reading to know that this is a bad idea.

Also the whole thing of ignoring prereqs is just fiddly and annoying. I understand the intent, but this is just bad.


terrible ninja disciplines

So... near as I can tell, this is basically just a weird list of "fighter feats" for the ninja. Since you're not restricted from doing a grab-bag and dumpster-diving all the good stuff from these lists. Honestly with a decent Wisdom, you could probably grab all the good ones at first level and no longer care, since you're only going to dip into this class for it's ridiculous front-load goodness.


At 2th level, a ninja gains Low-light Vision.

Probably mostly no one cares.


At 3th level and later, ninja can spend one daily use of his ki power as a full-round action, to gain the benefits of Superior low-light vision (see four times as far) for 24 hours instead.

Definitely no one cares.


At 4th level, a ninja gains darkvision up to 60 feet.

At this point, I give it about a 50/50 on people caring.


At 6th level and later, ninja can spend one daily use of his ki power as a full-round action, to gain the ability to see in darkness, even magical one, up to 90 feet for 24 hours instead.

The only use for this ability is the ability to pierce "magical [darkness]", but given that this ability gives no further insight into how it interacts with darkness effects, I have no idea how to rate this ability. Very niche, though, so... I'm meh about it.


Ki Dodge ... using this ability is a immediate action

Hey look, a good idea! Not requiring defensive abilities to be activated before knowing if something is coming your way is a good call.


Shadow manipulation

No. Stop. No.

Use existing spell mechanics. Don't do this weird thing you're trying to do here, where it's sort-of-magical-but-not-really. This ability is not a special snowflake.

Also, "affects area in patches of 10 feet/Chi modifier (minimum 10) in direction of ninja’s choosing" has no meaning. I don't know if this is a cone or a radius, I don't know if it's an emanation or a burst, I don't know what a "patch" is. Mechanical ability, mechanical language.


At 9th level and later, Ninja can spend one daily use of his Ki power as a full-round action, to gain Improved Uncanny Dodge for 24 hours instead. The level requirements for flanking are counted like ninja was a rogue of his ninja level.

I already covered this, but it bears repeating: this is bad and you should feel bad.


Ghost Strike ... is a swift action

Another good call. Reducing the action required to activate this ability means the ninja might actually be able to do something useful with it.


make his next single attack, a touch attack

At 7th level? Underwhelming, to say the least.


at 10th level this ability works like the default Ghost Strike from Complete Adventurer.

A ninja will never see 10th level, because this thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) already ate him.

Incorporeality has already been online for team monster for seven levels. Seven.


While activating this ability and spending 2 additional Ki power uses, ninja can expand this ability to one additional attack. Spending 3 uses, to additional 2 attacks, and spending 5, to affect all attacks in one round.

Oh, and you kept it still only affecting one attack. That's... sigh.


Ghost Walk: A 14th-level ninja ... and he can only bring one other creature with him.

Why? At 14th, the wizard can already teleport everybody around. Limiting the ninja with this arbitrary restriction just makes it so that this will never get used, since there are - typically - going to be more than 2 PCs.

NevinPL
2016-04-20, 11:14 AM
You're not going to like this.
With that negative approach, I bet I won't.


Evasion at first level. You know this is too good.
Maybe some people create stuff just to troll, or something, but I'm not one of them, so no - "I don't know".

It's not too good. Why:

monk, considered by some the worse class, has it as level 2,
it works only for attacks that have: "Reflex half" saving throw entry,
you still need to make the save.



Why would you do this.
Because it fits the ninja idea ?


If it's a 24-hour buff, just give it to them. Rogues can get this, monks can get this, no one cares.
Apparently you did, just in the previous paragraph...


There's no reason to spend a daily resource on something that a character is just going to turn on all the time anyway.
Then why wizards don't have Blur, and derivatives, at will ? How about druids and Wild Shape ? Cleric's Turn\Rebuke ?


Fiddly. At 9th, the +2 increase to Reflex might still be noticed. At 19th, it's rocket tag all the way down, and a piddly +2 is not going to save you.
Maybe, but it's still better than vanilla's 0.


Movement speed increases... pretty much same deal, except that at 9th if you're still relying on bog-standard walking around on the ground...
Where did you read, that it's only for land based movement ?


Oh this is just going to a bad place in a hurry.
Only because you came here with: "No, because no" attitude.


If you made the "Ninjutsu" feats a separate column...
?


At it stands, this sounds incredibly... oh for, and you do this at first level? Seriously.
?


This gaming tech is old enough to drive. It does not take much reading to know that this is a bad idea.
The fork, spoon, etc., are even older, so what ? And if you're that "ageist", why you'd "came" to a thread clearly indicating the 3.X edition ?
And could you please say why something is a bad idea ? Provide some alternatives, etc. If you can't\won't, what's the point ?


Also the whole thing of ignoring prereqs is just fiddly and annoying. I understand the intent, but this is just bad.
Not "ignoring prereqs", ignoring feat prerequisites, in some other feats, and the "ignoring" part has some prerequisites itself.
Also, from the feats listed, the ignoring part can be only used for 17 from 54. Taking into account its prerequisites, level requirements, etc., it will probably be used, ironically enough, for unarmed combat, maybe Shot on the run. So you're making the proverbial "storm in a teacup". Or just simply "meh" at reading it with understanding.
Although I've noticed something about one feat that needs "readjusting", so thank you.


So... near as I can tell, this is basically just a weird list of "fighter feats" for the ninja.
Reality is weird, no doubt about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu#The_eighteen_skills

Trying to make reality and fiction work together, even more. But if that's something weird for you, I'm again asking what's the point (of you being here) ?


Since you're not restricted from doing a grab-bag and dumpster-diving all the good stuff from these lists. Honestly with a decent Wisdom, you could probably grab all the good ones at first level and no longer care, since you're only going to dip into this class for it's ridiculous front-load goodness.
Well, that's between that DM, and that player. But if a DM allows you to take a feat with 8 level prerequisite, at first level, then something is definitely wrong. But not with this class - with him.

Also, if you learn not to worry about "everything", you'll live better.


Probably mostly no one cares.
Definitely no one cares.
At this point, I give it about a 50/50 on people caring.
That's the spirit ! Although now you've gone in the opposite extreme - apathy.


...but given that this ability gives no further insight into how it interacts with darkness effects...
And what "further insight" you need ?


Hey look, a good idea! Not requiring defensive abilities to be activated before knowing if something is coming your way is a good call.
Yeah, it "boggles the mind" that WotC didn't figured that out.


Use existing spell mechanics.
I don't think it exist. But please free to enlighten me.


Don't do this weird thing you're trying to do here, where it's sort-of-magical-but-not-really.
You must really hate DnD with its "poopload" of "sort-of-magical-but-not-really" stuff...


This ability is not a special snowflake.
?


Also, "affects area in patches of 10 feet/Chi modifier (minimum 10) in direction of ninja’s choosing" has no meaning.
Since the "ground" in DnD is represented by 5x5 feet squares, yes it does.


I already covered this, but it bears repeating: this is bad and you should feel bad.
No I shouldn't, but your disrupting should make you.


At 7th level? Underwhelming, to say the least.
Not so long ago it was: "ridiculous front-load goodness". So which is it ?
Also, still better than in vanilla.


A ninja will never see 10th level, because this thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) already ate him.
He's got better chances than, say, Fighter.
Also, if by level ten, you're relying just on class abilities, you're doing it wrong, and\or got a cheapskate DM.


Incorporeality has already been online for team monster for seven levels. Seven.
Maybe for the monsters, but not for (N)PC's, and since this is a class, and not a monster, I'm not using them as a "template".
And I could just picture the response: "meh, uber ridiculous front-load goodness", if at level 3, ninja could do that.

Strangely enough, WotC once again didn't see it, and placed it even further.


Oh, and you kept it still only affecting one attack.
Not really, no.


That's... sigh.
...on par with a NASDAQ trading, worldwide, professional company ?


At 14th, the wizard can already teleport everybody around.
Look at the title again - this isn't wizard. It isn't even a spellcasting class. Are you sure you've "got the right address" ?
Earlier on you've said that people will only take one level of this class, die before reaching level 10, and now you're concerned about level 14... ?
There's a word for it. But the rules about not giving advice that would require a license, precludes me from doing that.


Limiting the ninja with this arbitrary restriction just makes it so that this will never get used, since there are - typically - going to be more than 2 PCs.
Every class is limited in some way.
If you want to use ninja as a taxi\teleporter, you're doing it way wrong.


It was "fun", but if you didn't have anything helpful to add, go away.

GnomeWorks
2016-04-20, 08:14 PM
With that negative approach, I bet I won't.

I don't do hugboxes. I was just giving you fair warning.


[Evasion at first level is] not too good.

Your counterargument here is just full of fail.

The monk is terrible because it is an idiotic grab-bag of abilities that have no synergy; one of the few strong points of the monk is the fact that it gets evasion at second level.

Giving evasion at first level is generally a bad idea because it encourages dipping; if a class had evasion as its only class feature at first, it would be a solid candidate for dipping. You've also added a ton of other things at first level, which encourages the dipping even more.


Because it fits the ninja idea ?

Obviously evasion fits with ninjas. That does not validate giving to them at first level, from a mechanical and balance perspective.


Apparently you did, just in the previous paragraph...

I was specifically referencing improved evasion. Requiring the expenditure of a resource for an ability that other, similar classes get for free, while also giving enough of that resource that - at the level this ability comes online - the expenditure of the resource is basically meaningless and any ninja worth their salt will obviously do so because improved evasion is that good.

If every character ever will always spend a point of resource on a thing for an ability that lasts until that resource is replenished... you're basically just saying "permanently subtract one from the amount of chi you have, you now have improved evasion always." And if you're saying that, you might as well not say it at all, and just give it to them.


Then why wizards don't have Blur, and derivatives, at will ? How about druids and Wild Shape ? Cleric's Turn\Rebuke ?

That you lump all of these together says a lot about where you're coming from, in terms of design.

Wizards have a very limited number of spell slots, divided into discrete units of power, and can fill those slots with an incredibly diverse number of spells, the vast majority of which do not have a duration of until they can recharge their spells.

Most druids who go the wild shape route, who still care about spell casting, will take the feat that lets them cast while in bear form, then proceed to turn into a bear and not care about being a not-bear, rendering the daily limits on wild shape largely moot.

A cleric's turn/rebuke attempts are largely meaningless unless you bring DMM and nightsticks into the equation.


Maybe, but it's still better than vanilla's 0.

Sigh... no, it's not. Tracking small fiddly bonuses is an increase in accounting, which complexifies the game and increases lookup times as well as forcing players to keep track of more data. If the bonus is not worth the added complexity, then it can be worse than no bonus.

Take the bard as an example. The bard's +1 from inspire courage is a small fiddly bonus that many players will repeatedly forget, which (1) frustrates them when they remember after the fact, (2) slows down play as they ask about its existence, and (3) makes the bard player feel like crap because their contribution is not even being ignored, it is being forgotten.

That is bad design.


Where did you read, that it's only for land based movement ?

Then make the language more clear. If I can interpret it as only affecting land-based movement, then chances are good I am not the only one.

That these bonuses are untyped is also irksome, because - in capable hands - the bonus to saves could help propel an individual off the RNG. The bonus to movement speeds... it isn't terrible, it just isn't great.


Only because you came here with: "No, because no" attitude.

Incorrect. I came here with an "I will give you an honest critique" attitude. That you interpret that as anything else is on you.


[questioning my thoughts on making ninjutsu a column]

Instead of listing the number of feats gained in the class table written in letters, make it its own column and use numbers to make the progression more clear.


[questioning my thoughts on front-loading being bad]

Seriously, this should be self-evident. Don't front-load more than necessary to make the basic concept come across.


The fork, spoon, etc., are even older, so what ?

http://i.imgur.com/BqxNA2P.jpg


And if you're that "ageist", why you'd "came" to a thread clearly indicating the 3.X edition ?

3e is 16 years old, but it's a solid chassis. Just needs a little lovin' and a very solid understanding of the game design in question.

What you have done is ... not that.


And could you please say why something is a bad idea ? Provide some alternatives, etc. If you can't\won't, what's the point ?

I can point my finger at the moon, but you still have to look with your eyes, yo.


Not "ignoring prereqs", ignoring feat prerequisites, in some other feats, and the "ignoring" part has some prerequisites itself.

You should perhaps take my confusion on that issue, then, as a sign that the language could use some work.

Also, still fiddly.

Though... hmm. I suppose some of the more egregious feats on the list have BAB requirements, so perhaps you're right, it may not be all that bad.


Reality is weird ... But if that's something weird for you, I'm again asking what's the point (of you being here) ?

You're basically taking all those feats and appending the [Ninja] tag to them, and they are a weird grab-bag of feats. That is what I meant.

Reality or not, I don't particularly care. That your ninja has "more grounding in reality" is not a positive or a negative. Inspiration comes from all places.


Also, if you learn not to worry about "everything", you'll live better.

Kindly spare me your platitudes on the way of living my life and focus on the discussion at hand.


And what "further insight" you need ?

Oh for...


Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm)

Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

That is what I am talking about. The interaction of this effect with other effects that have the [Light] and [Darkness] descriptors.


Yeah, it "boggles the mind" that WotC didn't figured that out.

I detect snark, but yes, you are not wrong.


I don't think it exist. But please free to enlighten me.

Well, here's an example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daylight.htm).


You must really hate DnD with its "poopload" of "sort-of-magical-but-not-really" stuff...

By "sort-of-magical-but-not-really", I meant trying to replicate spell effects by using a lot of language when saying "this ability functions like spell X at caster level Y" would be infinitely more clear and dovetail into existing mechanics.


Since the "ground" in DnD is represented by 5x5 feet squares, yes it does.

You have some reading to do (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area).


No I shouldn't, but your disrupting should make you.

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg


Not so long ago it was: "ridiculous front-load goodness". So which is it ?

This question doesn't even make sense.

You front-loaded the class, then the rest of the levels are lackluster. I fail to see what is so hard to comprehend about that.

Also, on the second read-through, your 20th level is empty. There is no reason to progress to ninja 20, as written. That is bad.


Also, still better than in vanilla.

Being able to trade out making multiple attacks - which will most likely benefit from sneak attack damage - for a single attack resolved against touch is a marginally useful ability. It is niche. It is almost assuredly something that should come online well before characters leave the realm of "having thumbs" being an effective class feature.


He's got better chances than, say, Fighter.

You uh... realize that that's not saying much, yes?


Also, if by level ten, you're relying just on class abilities, you're doing it wrong, and\or got a cheapskate DM.

It is an unfortunate side-effect of 3e that magic items are seen as necessary, rather than nice-to-haves. You're not wrong, strictly RAW, but honestly designing item-dependence into a class is kinda terrible. A character should be awesome on their own merits, and not have to rely on trinkets to be on par.


Maybe for the monsters, but not for (N)PC's, and since this is a class, and not a monster, I'm not using them as a "template".

PCs should have tools in their toolbox to allow them to handle level-appropriate threats.

If you're going to give the class the ability to deal with incorporeality, you should do so at roughly the time that it becomes a factor on team monster. To do so otherwise is just insulting.


And I could just picture the response: "meh, uber ridiculous front-load goodness", if at level 3, ninja could do that.

Then perhaps reasonable costing and actual game design could make it less so, hmm?


Strangely enough, WotC once again didn't see it, and placed it even further.

Let's see, Jesse Decker. Let's take a look at his credits... looks like he also worked on ToB, It's Inside Outside, and BoED. Of those, the only one worth anything is ToB, and given his participation in Flywheel, I'm not feeling confident in his design abilities.


Not really, no.

Yes yes, you can burn more of your weird daily resource to use it on more attacks in your routine.

Though I guess it doesn't really matter, since iterative attacks are mostly useless.


...on par with a NASDAQ trading, worldwide, professional company ?

Appeal to authority, much? Jeez. Just because they produce shovelware that people buy, and happen to have control of one of the very few properties that has name recognition outside of the hobby, does not mean anyone on their design team is worth anything.


Look at the title again - this isn't wizard. It isn't even a spellcasting class. Are you sure you've "got the right address" ?

Every class is limited in some way.
If you want to use ninja as a taxi\teleporter, you're doing it way wrong.

Look. Make up your mind: either the ninja can 'port himself, which makes this an escape/sneak ability, or they can port everybody and makes it useful for the party to get around.

Making it so they can take one other person is just an awkward, vaguely insulting middle ground that looks like it is trying to serve both purposes, and just muddles the intent of the ability.


Earlier on you've said that people will only take one level of this class, die before reaching level 10, and now you're concerned about level 14... ?

Yes, I'm addressing your class from multiple angles. It's how critique works.

nonsi
2016-04-21, 08:23 AM
Probably mostly no one cares.
. . .
Definitely no one cares.
. . .
At this point, I give it about a 50/50 on people caring.


You raise some valid points . . . . . knocking off the importance of being able to better perceive your opponents and your environment is not one of them.
In fact, I'd add Darksense and Darksight along the way.

NevinPL
2016-04-21, 04:55 PM
I don't do hugboxes. I was just giving you fair warning.
No. You were trying to get me onto the defensive from the get-go.


Your counterargument here is just full of fail.
Prove it. No, saying it is, isn't proving.
If you prove it, provide better solution, unless you criticize just for the sake of criticizing.


The monk is terrible because it is...
...a martial class in a high magic game. Yup.


Giving evasion at first level is generally a bad idea because it encourages dipping; if a class had evasion as its only class feature at first, it would be a solid candidate for dipping.
Well yes, because the first level you start, is the first level, so here you start your class. There wizard gets his first spell, ranger his first favored enemy, and rogue his first d6 of sneak attack, and everyone 4 times skill points, additional feat, full dice of HP, etc.
So yes, I do follow that train of thought, but I don't put everything worthwhile at level 1, or even 5. Example: the "dissed" by you "powering up" of "improved" versions, the "praised" by you, Ki dodge, or Ghost strike.


You've also added a ton of other things at first level, which encourages the dipping even more.
The "ton of other things" you mentioned at first level, are just two things: feats, and trapfinding. Exaggerate much ?

Also, like I've mentioned earlier, stop trying to worry about everything. So a player takes this class only for the Evasion. So what ? If he wants to, the DM allows, and they have fun, why it bugs you so ?

I myself don't really care if someone uses 1, 5, or 20 levels of this class, or even if anyone uses it at all. I made it by myself, for myself, and posted here because maybe someone will find it useful, or maybe it'll make someone create his own YANI, or "inspire" in other way.
I'm not trying to make the forum sticky, or win some contest, so chill.


Obviously evasion fits with ninjas. That does not validate giving to them at first level, from a mechanical and balance perspective.
The which one it does fit according to you, and why ?


I was specifically referencing improved evasion. Requiring the expenditure of a resource for an ability that other, similar classes get for free, while also giving enough of that resource that - at the level this ability comes online - the expenditure of the resource is basically meaningless and any ninja worth their salt will obviously do so because improved evasion is that good.
Ninja got ability similar classes get just one level later, and look at your "outrage".


If every character ever will always spend a point of resource on a thing for an ability that lasts until that resource is replenished... you're basically just saying "permanently subtract one from the amount of chi you have, you now have improved evasion always." And if you're saying that, you might as well not say it at all, and just give it to them.
Well that's (one of) the differences between you and me - I'm not psychic, so I don't know how, or even if people will use this class. I do know that people find surprising ways to use, and abuse stuff, so I'm not trying to make it "unabusable", foolproof, etc.
I also know how I'm going to use it - not like you suggest. Why ? Ki uses are a limited, and finite resource. You can't offset that by buying scrolls, wands, or nightsticks. So using it in the morning "just in case", means you have that much less later, maybe when you really need it. And if your games are all such that Improved Evasion is a no-brainer, you're doing it wrong.


That you lump all of these together says a lot about where you're coming from, in terms of design.
And where is that ?


Wizards have a very limited number of spell slots, divided into discrete units of power, and can fill those slots with an incredibly diverse number of spells...
So what are you saying ? Wizards are too limited and too diverse ? ?!


...the vast majority of which do not have a duration of until they can recharge their spells.
wat ?


Most druids who go the wild shape route, who still care about spell casting, will take the feat that lets them cast while in bear form, then proceed to turn into a bear and not care about being a not-bear, rendering the daily limits on wild shape largely moot.
If they're turning into a bear, being able to turn into a bear, isn't moot for them.


A cleric's turn/rebuke attempts are largely meaningless unless you bring DMM and nightsticks into the equation.
But it still is a finite (more or less) resource, not at will.

And you "missed" the point - if "there's no reason to spend a daily resource on something that a character is just going to turn on all the time anyway", as you say, why wizards spend those spell slots, druids those wild shapes, and clerics turn\rebuke attempts ?


Sigh... no, it's not. Tracking small fiddly bonuses is an increase in accounting, which complexifies the game and increases lookup times as well as forcing players to keep track of more data. If the bonus is not worth the added complexity, then it can be worse than no bonus.
Guess warrior is your favorite class.


Take the bard as an example. The bard's +1 from inspire courage is a small fiddly bonus that many players will repeatedly forget, which (1) frustrates them when they remember after the fact, (2) slows down play as they ask about its existence, and (3) makes the bard player feel like crap because their contribution is not even being ignored, it is being forgotten.
Then:

don't use it,
create better one.



That is bad design.
Then. Provide. Better.


If I can interpret it as only affecting land-based movement, then chances are good...
If you can interpret a statement, which doesn't give any indication of "correct" interpretation, just in one way, then the chances are good you're interpreting it to suit your needs.

Also, there is a language that is so "precise", so "defined", that there's a whole "caste" of people who write, and read it - the law, and lawyers.
And in that attempt to capture, define "everything, without any doubt", they ended up with the opposite - the law is so convoluted and imprecise, that two lawyers can look at the same act, and have more than two interpretation of it. Further more, one lawyer can have different interpretations of the same law, depending on side he's in, client, lunar cycles, or something like that.
Not to mention that some lawyers openly admit that they don't understand that gibberish too.
So I take "plain English" everyday.


That these bonuses are untyped is also irksome, because - in capable hands - the bonus to saves could help propel an individual off the RNG.
In capable hands, nothing can become everything, and vice versa, so like I wrote couple of times before - stop trying to worry about everything.


The bonus to movement speeds... it isn't terrible, it just isn't great.
Guess we know who you're voting for...


Incorrect. I came here with an "I will give you an honest critique" attitude.
I don't need "honest critique", I can do it by my self. I need honest critique, and ideas how to improve critiqued issues.
Looks like you're incapable of the latter, so you're virtually doing just that - saying no, because no.


[questioning my thoughts on making ninjutsu a column]
Projecting much ?


Instead of listing the number of feats gained in the class table written in letters, make it its own column and use numbers to make the progression more clear.
I still don't understand what are you trying to say, so now's your chance to show an example of that clear language.


Seriously, this should be self-evident. Don't front-load more than necessary to make the basic concept come across.
It is, and I didn't.


http://i.imgur.com/BqxNA2P.jpg
The more I read your post, the more I get that feeling...


3e is 16 years old, but it's a solid chassis.
Like I wrote in other thread today - It's not food, or medicine - you can still use it without ending in ER, morgue, so I really don't know why you're still bringing it's age up.


...a very solid understanding of the game design in question.
I wonder who meats your standards of that, if, as you later wrote, even "big shots" from WotC, don't...


What you have done is ... not that.
I won't even bother to write it again.


I can point my finger at the moon, but you still have to look with your eyes, yo.
Your finger is pointing at you: "Me, me, me !".


You should perhaps take my confusion on that issue, then, as a sign that the language could use some work.
Your "handicap" that makes you interpret things in the way you see fit, has nothing to do with my language.
English isn't even my second language, and I was called an American in more than one place, so I think it's good enough. Or bad enough, depending on how you look at it.
And since you still don't want to show those "mad skillz", even language ones, your picking on my "not perfect English", is even more petty.


Though... hmm. I suppose some of the more egregious feats on the list have BAB requirements, so perhaps you're right, it may not be all that bad.
And it "only" took you 1 and about 2/3 of your posts, and 2 of mine, to read what I wrote in my first ? I'm "impressed".


You're basically taking all those feats and appending the [Ninja] tag to them...
I think you need to read those posts again...


they are a weird grab-bag of feats.
No, they're not. There are as close to the ideals of those disciplines as DnD allows.
Guess you didn't read the mini description in English, (the one next to Japanese one, in my first post), either ?


That your ninja has "more grounding in reality" is not a positive or a negative.
And where did I say something about its "polarization" ?


Kindly spare me your platitudes on the way of living my life and focus on the discussion at hand.
Kindly learn how to have a discussion, so we can have a discussion.
Also, not platitude, but you'll find that out by yourself in time.
Probably.


The interaction of this effect with other effects that have the [Light] and [Darkness] descriptors.
Since up until level 5, it affects natural shadows, it interacts as natural light, or darkness.
Since from level 7, it affects magical, like magical.
Since you obviously know about d20srd.org, you should know that supernatural abilities don't have spell levels, and why, but guess in this case one is needed. Thank you, will update.


Well, here's an example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daylight.htm).
Not really - not doing even half the work of the Su in question.


...would be infinitely more clear and dovetail into existing mechanics.
You're confusing mechanic, with (spell) effects - I didn't change how darkness or light behaves, nor even was first to put it in one convenient package (Dusk and Dawn, ToM). I've just "improved" it.


You have some reading to do (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area).
You too - I was talking about ground, not spell area. Here's a link that should help:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm

Also, you should use your own advice more often, then you would read that bit at the bottom:

Other
A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.
and would make an ass of yourself.


http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg
Yes, like I said under the previous image.


This question doesn't even make sense.
Not for you, no.


You front-loaded the class, then the rest of the levels are lackluster. I fail to see what is so hard to comprehend about that.
I wrote about this earlier, read it. Maybe three times just to be sure.


Also, on the second read-through, your 20th level is empty. There is no reason to progress to ninja 20, as written. That is bad.
You needed a second read-through, to see an open space after filled ones ? Once again I'm "impressed".
And yes there are. I can think of two out of hand, though it might take you a third read-through to see them.
And not bad - normal like, for example, rogue.


Being able to trade out making multiple attacks - which will most likely benefit from sneak attack damage - for a single attack resolved against touch...
Read it again, because it's clear you didn't the first two times, or at least not fully.


You uh... realize that that's not saying much, yes?
You realize that this is Ninja Improvement, not: "Ninja Fix That Will End All Fixes Now And In The Future And Will Make Everyone Play Just Ninja", yes ?
Creating that, would be bad design.


It is an unfortunate side-effect of 3e that magic items are seen as necessary, rather than nice-to-haves.
It's no side effect of any kind, or 3, 3.5 edition - it's the planned result of a high magic setting.


...but honestly designing item-dependence into a class is kinda terrible.
You don't have to "design" anything, it's there from the beginning. Why ? High magic.


A character should be awesome on their own merits, and not have to rely on trinkets to be on par.
Then you need something other than DnD. Just like I've suggested before...


PCs should have tools in their toolbox to allow them to handle level-appropriate threats.
And they have. It's called: "One-Stop-Shop-For-All-Your-Adventuring-Needs (R)(C)(TM)", and it's run by that grumpy DMitry PCutin.
Factotum, supposedly, is fine too.


If you're going to give the class the ability to deal with incorporeality, you should do so at roughly the time that it becomes a factor on team monster. To do so otherwise is just insulting.
Then DnD must insult you a lot.
Also, its way earlier than when wizard gets even the Ethereal Jaunt, and just one level after he gets Blink, Improved, or Etherealness, Swift, so once again - storm, teacup.


Then perhaps reasonable costing and actual game design could make it less so, hmm?
Do !


Let's see, Jesse Decker.
You really think he did it all by himself ? :D
Also - ghostwriter.


Yes yes, you can burn more of your weird daily resource to use it on more attacks in your routine.
So which one is it ?
Also, not mine weird resource, I'm just making lemonade.


Though I guess it doesn't really matter, since iterative attacks are mostly useless.
If you participate in the "DnD Arms and Armor race" - yes.


Appeal to authority, much?
No. Just trying to point something out.
Ironically, you pointed even more out.


Look. Make up your mind: either the ninja can 'port himself, which makes this an escape/sneak ability, or they can port everybody and makes it useful for the party to get around.
I made up my mind - ninja can't teleport at all.
Ninja can plane shift a little, and take one person with him. Why ? Because elusive shadow warrior. Because his dying ninja buddy can't. Because the dead body needs disappearing, etc., etc.


Making it so they can take one other person is just an awkward, vaguely insulting middle ground that looks like it is trying to serve both purposes, and just muddles the intent of the ability.
Not really, no.


Yes, I'm addressing your class from multiple angles. It's how critique works.
At most, pointless critique, just for the sake of critique, which, if you'll continue, I will have to report.

GnomeWorks
2016-04-21, 05:42 PM
You know what?

I'm done here.

You're clearly terrible both at English and game design, apparently are utterly unwilling to listen to anything productive anyone has to say on the matter, and clearly possess a level of arrogance that is - quite frankly - astounding given just much you suck.

If you want to sling poo at the wall, that's fine. Have fun with that. Just don't expect anyone to ever give you productive feedback.

You will never improve, you will never learn, you will never become more than you are, which is - again, quite frankly - a failure.

I'm out.

JNAProductions
2016-04-21, 05:47 PM
I don't need "honest critique", I can do it by my self.

I would like to point out that no-you can't. No matter what, you're going to view your own work with at least a little bias.

There is definitely benefit to be had in simply pointing out what's wrong, even if no suggestions on how to better it are given.

AvatarVecna
2016-04-21, 08:42 PM
Certainly interesting...if you'll allow me to pitch in my two coppers:
I feel the skill points/level could be increased to 8 without too much issue, but this is a small point overall; it's solid either way.

Evasion at 1st level seems a bit much. Sure, monks get it at 2nd lvl, and monks suck, but rogues are fairly balanced and also get it at 2nd lvl; what's more, rangers are another fairly well-balanced core class, and they get it at...what, 9th level? Anyway, 1st level seems a bit too early, but putting it at 2nd level just seems to fit the edition better. Again, not a huge issue, just a bit disconcerting given how the rest of the edition treats evasion. Gaining the ability later to use Ki Power to get an all-day improved version seems strange, though; why not give them improved evasion at that level, instead of costing Ki Power? Minor difference, but worth asking about.

Ki and Chi being based off Con and Cha...I guess it makes a certain amount of sense, but I'm worried at how balanced it will turn out to be. I guess it prevents somebody with huge Wis from just dipping into the class and gaining tons of features, but it means that a ninja who focuses more on their Dex or Wis isn't going to get much better at actual ninja abilities. One of the biggest downfalls of the Monk class is that it's incredibly MAD, and this class has that same problem. Maybe if Chi modifier was (Wis mod)+(half ninja level) and Ki Power uses per day (character level)+(Chi modifier), making total Ki Power uses per day (character level)+(half-ninja level)+(Wis mod); it solves the MAD issue the current version has, and it rewards the player for making a single-classed ninja (you could have certain PrCs advance Ki/Chi as if you were a ninja, to make sure that you don't lose out from taking a nice PrC, but without any such PrCs yet, that's neither here nor there).

Ninjitsu seems...odd. Not to say the way it works is odd, but figuring out exactly what's going on is difficult; comparing what I think Ninjitsu does to the example stat block you provided doesn't seem to match up (since the example stat block does not appear to possess any bonus feats), so either you got the stat block wrong, or I'm understanding the workings of Ninjitsu wrong. A more in-depth explanation of how this ability functions would allow me to better understand whether it's balanced or not.

Trapfinding, Great Leap, and Speed Climb all seem to make sense, given the changes to armor in this version.

Shadowy Sight seems interesting, but there's a slight issue: namely, there's no real advantage if your race already gives you low-light vision or darkvision. Perhaps, if you already possess the aforementioned abilities, you could gain the next level up in addition to your normal vision? For instance, an Elf Ninja 2 would have superior low-light and could use Ki Power to gain 60 ft Darkvision, while a Dwarf Ninja 2 (I know, perish the thought) would have 90 magical darkvision and could use Ki Power to...extend its range? I'm not sure, but it's definitely worth thinking about.

Hurray! Sudden Strike is gone! Sneak Attack is in! The slower progression seems a bit odd, but it's whatever; gaining the ability to get your bonus damage while flanking is quite a boon.

Grasshopper is certainly useful, at least at the lower levels; past 15th, though, jumping distance and falling damage become a lot less relevant, but this is still a nice ability to have if you ever need it.

Ghost Step and Ki Dodge seem alright.

Other than the aforementioned issues with how Chi is gained, Shadow Manipulation seems alright.

As with Evasion, gaining Uncanny Dodge feels right. Gaining the ability later to use Ki Power to get an all-day improved version seems strange, though; why not give them improved uncanny dodge at that level, instead of costing Ki Power? Minor difference, but worth asking about.

Ghost Strike has been appropriately buffed; I like this.

Ghost Mind remains a solid ability.

Obfuscate seems fine, except that its currently tied to the dual-attribute-dependent Chi modifier; getting half ninja level in addition is nice, but the MAD is still present. If you go with my recommended change to Chi modifier, I would recommend changing the save DC on this to "10+Chi modifier"; sure, it only gets one attribute to it instead of two, but that just means the MAD is greatly reduced.

Ghost Walk seems...weird. I think just using the normal Ghost Walk from Complete Adventurer would be sufficient, even at the lower level.

I don't really feel up to judging the feats, and I'd need Ninjitsu to be clarified, but this seems...reasonably balanced, at least as far as high T4/low T3 goes. Of course, if the stat block was messed up and the intention was that ninjas get a pile of bonus feats at 1st level, there's gonna be some issues...

nonsi
2016-04-22, 01:47 PM
You know what?

I'm done here.

You're clearly terrible both at English and game design, apparently are utterly unwilling to listen to anything productive anyone has to say on the matter, and clearly possess a level of arrogance that is - quite frankly - astounding given just much you suck.

If you want to sling poo at the wall, that's fine. Have fun with that. Just don't expect anyone to ever give you productive feedback.

You will never improve, you will never learn, you will never become more than you are, which is - again, quite frankly - a failure.

I'm out.

FYI, post #14 is an example of a productive critique. I believe you'll figure out the "why" part on your own.

NevinPL
2016-04-22, 04:09 PM
No matter what, you're going to view your own work with at least a little bias.
1. Note the quot(ation marks).
2. Yes, but not necessary the positive one.
3. Are you implying that other people don't ?


There is definitely benefit to be had in simply pointing out what's wrong, even if no suggestions on how to better it are given.
Maybe for people like my projecting "imploder" back there, not for me. I can be a "devil's advocate" all day long, but it doesn't really help me. Why ? Because it doesn't really provide alternatives.


I feel the skill points/level could be increased to 8 without too much issue, but this is a small point overall; it's solid either way.
Yeah, I thought about it too, especially since I've added couple of skills.
Gonna do the math...


Evasion at 1st level seems a bit much. Sure, monks get it at 2nd lvl, and monks suck, but rogues are fairly balanced and also get it at 2nd lvl...
It doesn't really mess things up, so level 2 it will be.


what's more, rangers are another fairly well-balanced core class, and they get it at...what, 9th level?
Because ranger's "archetype" is dodging being seen, not "bullets", not because it's sooo goood :)


Gaining the ability later to use Ki Power to get an all-day improved version seems strange, though; why not give them improved evasion at that level, instead of costing Ki Power? Minor difference, but worth asking about.
I like strategizing\planning. I don't really like "giving things for free", and ninja is somewhat "buffed" as it is, hence the "price" for improved versions.


Ki and Chi being based off Con and Cha...I guess it makes a certain amount of sense, but I'm worried at how balanced it will turn out to be.
Yeah, "grafting" that together, was my biggest concern, but I don't really see any other way to make a modifier high enough to make it matter, worthwhile, while still "being Chi".


I guess it prevents somebody with huge Wis from just dipping into the class and gaining tons of features, but it means that a ninja who focuses more on their Dex or Wis isn't going to get much better at actual ninja abilities.
My not making Ki based on wisdom, wasn't based on fear of abuse, but on it not sitting right with my vision of what Ki\Chi is, and (in a strange way) trying to minimize MAD.
Furthermore, earlier in the development, number of Ninjutsu starting feats wasn't dependent on Chi modifier, but I wanted to "reward" focus, higher stats.
Any ideas for Ki\Chi modifier ?


One of the biggest downfalls of the Monk class is that it's incredibly MAD, and this class has that same problem.
Yeah...


Maybe if Chi modifier was (Wis mod)+(half ninja level)...
A bit too high for my taste, and not fitting that vision I have about Chi.


...(you could have certain PrCs advance Ki/Chi as if you were a ninja, to make sure that you don't lose out from taking a nice PrC, but without any such PrCs yet, that's neither here nor there).
This class was designed with "shadowy" templates in mind, because, like you said, there are no "ninja compatible" PRC's.


Ninjitsu seems...odd. [...] A more in-depth explanation of how this ability functions would allow me to better understand whether it's balanced or not.
You've asked for it ;]

Ninja has a group of nine "disciplines", that point to, improve, etc., some of archetypal ninja abilities, both based IRL, and made up by me for this class. So we have "Ansatsujutsu - assassination", "Bōryaku – tactics", and so on.

Each discipline consists of six feats. At level 1 you pick a number of those feats equal to your Wisdom modifier + 2, from any discipline you like, if you meet the prerequisites of those feats. But having two feats from one discipline (for example Dodge, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics), allows you to disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats, but only from that same discipline (in this case Bōryaku – tactics). Only feat prerequisites, and only in other feats from that same discipline. Not level, ability score, or other prerequisites. Not from feats in other disciplines, or completely outside ninjutsu feat list, not from feats listed in those disciplines, but gained in other ways, like being at first level, bonus racial, class feat, or by default gaining level feat acquisition.

Having 4 feats, lets you disregard 2 feat prerequisite.

"Completing" the whole discipline (by acquiring via Ninjutsu all of six feats in said discipline), grants extra one ki power use per day.

Example:
You start at first level as an elf. You get the default feat. Lets leave it alone for now.

From ninja class, you get Wisdom modifier + 2 number of feats you choose from the list under the Ninjutsu entry. Lets say 3 feats.
So you can choose Master Of Poisons from the Ansatsujutsu - assassination discipline, Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics, Expanded Ki Pool from Chijutsu – Ki. Or 2 from Ansatsujutsu, and 1 from Taijutsu, or all 3 from one discipline, or whatever you want, and meet the prerequisites.
Now, if you choose two from the same discipline, say Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics, you could disregard one feat prerequisite, in other feats from that same discipline, and take as that third ninjutsu feat Mobility, provided you meet its Dex requirement. Why ? You have two feats from one discipline (Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku), so you can disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from that same discipline (Mobility is also from Bōryaku, and you're disregarding its feat prerequisite of Dodge).

Now lets get back to that feat we left alone in the begging. It doesn't count for the purpose of Ninjutsu "bonuses" (prerequisite ignoring, bonus Ki power uses), even if they're exactly the same.
So if you had Combat Reflexes from Ninjutsu, but Improved Initiative from being at first level, you couldn't gain Mobility through Ninjutsu, because you have only one feat through ninjutsu (Combat Reflexes), and you need two to disregard it.

On later levels you get one new ninjutsu feat, unless its noted as: "Ninjutsu (two)". then you get obviously two.

If this block of text looks mind boggling, or something, think of it like this:
You're training running, so running, and activities that have running in them (like football), come easier to you (hence the ignoring of some prerequisites).
But to be a good football player, you need more than just being able to run (hence the limitation of the said ignoring).

TL;DR
Ninjutsu gives you a bunch of bonus feats grouped into 9 thematic subgroups. Think of them as paths.
Ninjutsu feats count as Ninjutsu feats, only if they were acquired though Ninjutsu. So does bonuses they trigger.
Staying on the path (acquiring feats from one discipline), gets rewarded (prerequisite ignoring)
Completing the path (acquiring all the feats from one discipline), gets rewarded extra (the bonus Ki power use).


Trapfinding, Great Leap, and Speed Climb all seem to make sense, given the changes to armor in this version.
Yeah, guess the WotC didn't learn "the lesson of Hexblade" up until PHB II :)


Perhaps, if you already possess the aforementioned abilities, you could gain the next level up in addition to your normal vision?
I thought it did :) But maybe I've confused it with gaining Uncanny D. through various classes.
Will add.


...Dwarf Ninja 2 (I know, perish the thought)...
Why ? He might not be a "swift zephyr" ninja, but Con, and Fort buffs would be helpful for assassination focused ninja.


I'm not sure, but it's definitely worth thinking about.
That was the idea, hence the "powering up" with Ki. I just didn't take that next step.
Will improve.


Hurray! Sudden Strike is gone! Sneak Attack is in!
Yeah, I somewhat understand the "Scout Sneak Attack", but Sudden is just "handicapped" Sneak, so redundant, and "not so bright".


The slower progression seems a bit odd...
Didn't want to make ninja too rogue-like.
And he has other ways to "crank up the damage".


Grasshopper is certainly useful, at least at the lower levels; past 15th, though, jumping distance and falling damage become a lot less relevant, but this is still a nice ability to have if you ever need it.
Well, I'm using my own version of falling damage, so still relevant, but yeah - you could think of it like wizards Prestidigitation.


Ghost Step and Ki Dodge seem alright.
Just "roughed some edges", the idea behind them was sound.


...Shadow Manipulation seems alright.
:)


...why not give them improved evasion at that level, instead of costing Ki Power?
Mentioned it earlier. Though I'm open to suggestions, but other than "give improved for free".


Obfuscate seems fine, except that its currently tied to the dual-attribute-dependent Chi modifier...
Yeah, I'm gonna think about doing something about Chi modifier.


Ghost Walk seems...weird. I think just using the normal Ghost Walk from Complete Adventurer would be sufficient, even at the lower level.
But "shadow warrior", so needs plane of shadow... ;)
More seriously - ethereal jaunt sucks because it only planeshifts you temporally, so it's more suitable for B&E, "stabby, stab", and the like. For that ninja already has ghost step.


Of course, if the stat block was messed up and the intention was that ninjas get a pile of bonus feats at 1st level, there's gonna be some issues...
Now that you say it, it does sound bad...
Maybe just Wis modifier worth ? Static 2 ?

AvatarVecna
2016-04-22, 06:42 PM
I like strategizing\planning. I don't really like "giving things for free", and ninja is somewhat "buffed" as it is, hence the "price" for improved versions.

Alright, fair enough. Strategic Ki use could give the class an interesting edge...okay, how about this:

Evasive Maneuvers (Ex): Starting at 10th level, you gain unprecedented abilities in avoiding harm: you may, as a full round action that provokes AoOs, grant yourself Improved Evasion (as a monk), Improved Uncanny Dodge (treating your ninja levels as rogue levels for the purposes of determining who can Sneak Attack you), a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Chi modifier (which is unavailable when you're being denied your Dex mod to AC), and an untyped bonus to your Reflex saves equal to your Chi modifier. This ability costs one use of Ki to activate, and lasts for two hours. You may also employ this ability as an immediate action that does not provoke AoOs, but doing so costs 3 uses of Ki Power instead of the normal single use.

There, this gives both effects at once, as well as some other goodies, all wrapped up in a nice little package...but it doesn't last the whole day unless you've got a buttload of Ki Power, meaning you've got to be careful on when you use if. You even have the ability to interrupt an attack/fireball/whatever to give yourself these bonuses...but it costs extra Ki.

Thoughts?


Yeah, "grafting" that together, was my biggest concern, but I don't really see any other way to make a modifier high enough to make it matter, worthwhile, while still "being Chi".

A common dilemma: what is "balanced" is not always "fitting the idea". Perhaps...okay, so how about this: what if your Chi modifier is the highest two of your Con, Wis, and Cha modifiers? That would make it less MAD (since you're likely to have Wis for other reasons), but it means that either Con or Cha has to be involved, and if you want to be a low-Wis Ninja, you're not totally screwed by it. This makes it more open to various kinds of ninja concepts, while still ensuring that it's not dependent on having virtually every stat really high.



Ninja has a group of nine "disciplines", that point to, improve, etc., some of archetypal ninja abilities, both based IRL, and made up by me for this class. So we have "Ansatsujutsu - assassination", "Bōryaku – tactics", and so on.

Each discipline consists of six feats. At level 1 you pick a number of those feats equal to your Wisdom modifier + 2, from any discipline you like, if you meet the prerequisites of those feats. But having two feats from one discipline (for example Dodge, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics), allows you to disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats, but only from that same discipline (in this case Bōryaku – tactics). Only feat prerequisites, and only in other feats from that same discipline. Not level, ability score, or other prerequisites. Not from feats in other disciplines, or completely outside ninjutsu feat list, not from feats listed in those disciplines, but gained in other ways, like being at first level, bonus racial, class feat, or by default gaining level feat acquisition.

Having 4 feats, lets you disregard 2 feat prerequisite.

"Completing" the whole discipline (by acquiring via Ninjutsu all of six feats in said discipline), grants extra one ki power use per day.

Example:
You start at first level as an elf. You get the default feat. Lets leave it alone for now.

From ninja class, you get Wisdom modifier + 2 number of feats you choose from the list under the Ninjutsu entry. Lets say 3 feats.
So you can choose Master Of Poisons from the Ansatsujutsu - assassination discipline, Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics, Expanded Ki Pool from Chijutsu – Ki. Or 2 from Ansatsujutsu, and 1 from Taijutsu, or all 3 from one discipline, or whatever you want, and meet the prerequisites.
Now, if you choose two from the same discipline, say Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku – tactics, you could disregard one feat prerequisite, in other feats from that same discipline, and take as that third ninjutsu feat Mobility, provided you meet its Dex requirement. Why ? You have two feats from one discipline (Combat Reflexes, and Improved Initiative from Bōryaku), so you can disregard one feat prerequisite in other feats from that same discipline (Mobility is also from Bōryaku, and you're disregarding its feat prerequisite of Dodge).

Now lets get back to that feat we left alone in the begging. It doesn't count for the purpose of Ninjutsu "bonuses" (prerequisite ignoring, bonus Ki power uses), even if they're exactly the same.
So if you had Combat Reflexes from Ninjutsu, but Improved Initiative from being at first level, you couldn't gain Mobility through Ninjutsu, because you have only one feat through ninjutsu (Combat Reflexes), and you need two to disregard it.

On later levels you get one new ninjutsu feat, unless its noted as: "Ninjutsu (two)". then you get obviously two.

If this block of text looks mind boggling, or something, think of it like this:
You're training running, so running, and activities that have running in them (like football), come easier to you (hence the ignoring of some prerequisites).
But to be a good football player, you need more than just being able to run (hence the limitation of the said ignoring).

TL;DR
Ninjutsu gives you a bunch of bonus feats grouped into 9 thematic subgroups. Think of them as paths.
Ninjutsu feats count as Ninjutsu feats, only if they were acquired though Ninjutsu. So does bonuses they trigger.
Staying on the path (acquiring feats from one discipline), gets rewarded (prerequisite ignoring)
Completing the path (acquiring all the feats from one discipline), gets rewarded extra (the bonus Ki power use).

Okay, so let me see if I've got this straight: at first level, you select {Wis mod+2} feats from the list; these are now bonus feats. Assuming a fairly middle-of-the-road Wisdom for such a class, that's still 3 bonus feats. An Elf Ninja 1 with Wis 14 and no flaws has the same number of feats as a Human Fighter 1 with 2 flaws.

That's...pretty out there, and it rewards a high Wisdom far too much. The immediate abuse I'm seeing for this part is that a high-level divine caster could dip into this class, pick up close to a dozen feats for a single level, and then get out. A battle cleric wouldn't even have to adjust them very much, but even a wizard (who would get more like half-a-dozen feats) could just Dark Chaos Shuffle them into something worthwhile. This is an extremely frontloaded ability, and one I think is detrimental to the class' viability as a standalone class.

But not only do you get a minimum of two feats upfront, the more feats you have from a particular discipline, the more feat pre-reqs you can ignore? This is...weird, at least to me. Keeping track of what pre-reqs you can and can't ignore is a lot more book-keeping than most people want out of a martial class.

Here's what I would do, both to make it bit more balanced and a bit more managable:

Ninjutsu (Ex): At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4th level in the Ninja class, select a bonus feat from the Ninjutsu feat list; you may ignore all pre-reqs these feats may possess when selecting them as Ninjutsu bonus feats, but not if selecting them as feats of any other source.

This allows for the same feat progression as the Generic Expert class presented in Unearthed Arcana, lets you ignore all pre-reqs instead of just feat pre-reqs, cleans up the bonus feat list, and still allows for mixing and matching; as long as the feats for each style are changed up a bit so that they mesh better together, there will still be a reward for sticking with your style.



Why ? He might not be a "swift zephyr" ninja, but Con, and Fort buffs would be helpful for assassination focused ninja.

It's not because a Dwarf Ninja wouldn't be effective, but because being a Ninja is not necessarily appealing to dwarves by default. Humans and elves? Of course. Halflings? Absolutely. Gnomes? Sure, why not. But Dwarves? They're better than Half-Orc Ninjas, but still...



Yeah, I somewhat understand the "Scout Sneak Attack", but Sudden is just "handicapped" Sneak, so redundant, and "not so bright".

Yeah, Skirmish is a favorite of mine, but SA is great too. Sudden is just...disappointing.



Didn't want to make ninja too rogue-like.
And he has other ways to "crank up the damage".

Fair enough. I think it should be faster, but I'm sure the bonus feat progression will balance things well enough.


But "shadow warrior", so needs plane of shadow... ;)
More seriously - ethereal jaunt sucks because it only planeshifts you temporally, so it's more suitable for B&E, "stabby, stab", and the like. For that ninja already has ghost step.

That's a fair point, it is pretty short duration. Alright, leave it as-is.



Now that you say it, it does sound bad...
Maybe just Wis modifier worth ? Static 2 ?

As mentioned earlier, I think switching to the same bonus feat progression as the Generic Expert (1, 2, every 4) would be more gradual, would make the class less frontloaded, and would discourage high-Wis casters from dipping for a crap-ton of free feats. As mentioned earlier, I think the pre-reqs for these bonus feats should be ignored altogether, rather than just ignoring a feat-based number of feat pre-reqs for certain sub-sets of the bonus feat list. It's an interesting idea, but it either needs to be much more fleshed out (almost like a ToB school) or it needs to be made more similar to existing bonus feat progressions. The progression of the Generic Expert and being allowed to ignore feat pre-reqs makes this much simpler, although some of the feats will have to be dropped in favor of more desirable feats.

nonsi
2016-04-22, 11:33 PM
I like strategizing\planning. I don't really like "giving things for free", and ninja is somewhat "buffed" as it is, hence the "price" for improved versions.


Paying with a daily currency to get something active all day is just annoying. It could be justifiable if you had a collection of active abilities to choose from, not when it comes to a passive ability. You don't know ahead of time that Improved Evasion will serve you today or not and there's no real game strategy there.
Either decrease the daily resource or not, but I advise against this course of action.

AvatarVecna
2016-04-22, 11:38 PM
Paying with a daily currency to get something active all day is just annoying. It could be justifiable if you had a collection of active abilities to choose from, not when it comes to a passive ability. You don't know ahead of time that Improved Evasion will serve you today or not and there's no real game strategy there.
Either decrease the daily resource or not, but I advise against this course of action.

What did you think of my proposed alternative?

nonsi
2016-04-23, 12:21 AM
Alright, fair enough. Strategic Ki use could give the class an interesting edge...okay, how about this:

Evasive Maneuvers (Ex): Starting at 10th level, you gain unprecedented abilities in avoiding harm: you may, as a full round action that provokes AoOs, grant yourself Improved Evasion (as a monk), Improved Uncanny Dodge (treating your ninja levels as rogue levels for the purposes of determining who can Sneak Attack you), a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Chi modifier (which is unavailable when you're being denied your Dex mod to AC), and an untyped bonus to your Reflex saves equal to your Chi modifier. This ability costs one use of Ki to activate, and lasts for two hours. You may also employ this ability as an immediate action that does not provoke AoOs, but doing so costs 3 uses of Ki Power instead of the normal single use.

There, this gives both effects at once, as well as some other goodies, all wrapped up in a nice little package...but it doesn't last the whole day unless you've got a buttload of Ki Power, meaning you've got to be careful on when you use if. You even have the ability to interrupt an attack/fireball/whatever to give yourself these bonuses...but it costs extra Ki.

Thoughts?


I wake up in the morning and use the full round version.
Now I get double the benefits at no cost in terms of game mechanics, but I have to mention it each morning anew (and several times again during the day) - that's annoying.

NevinPL
2016-04-23, 07:25 AM
...how about this:
No, too convoluted even for my tastes, and it makes you "burn through" Ki like hell.
Guess I'm gonna give it for free after all...


A common dilemma: what is "balanced" is not always "fitting the idea".
I know, this is not my first homebrew :)


Perhaps...okay, so how about this: what if your Chi modifier is the highest two of your Con, Wis, and Cha modifiers?
How about something that "hit me" yesterday before getting into bed.
If Chi is life force, then character level is very much the representation of that life force.
So:

Chi = 1/2 of ninja level, so we nicely bypassed the MAD.
Ki uses = 2*Chi + Wis, or here
Obfuscate saving throw = 10 + Chi + Wis, no MAD here

And Wis is used in other ninja abilities too, so class boils down to Dex, and Wis :)

How about it ?


An Elf Ninja 1 with Wis 14 and no flaws has the same number of feats as a Human Fighter 1 with 2 flaws.
Same number, but more limited.


That's...pretty out there, and it rewards a high Wisdom far too much. The immediate abuse I'm seeing for this part is that a high-level divine caster could dip into this class, pick up close to a dozen feats for a single level, and then get out.
Yeah. So static 2 ?


...the more feats you have from a particular discipline, the more feat pre-reqs you can ignore? This is...weird, at least to me.
Did you read the running\football analogy ? If you still "don't get it", think of it like sort of feat synergy, similar to skill synergy.


Keeping track of what pre-reqs you can and can't ignore is a lot more book-keeping than most people want out of a martial class.
What tracking ? You can only ignore feat prerequisite in other feats, like the mentioned earlier prerequisite of Dodge feat, in the Mobility feat.There are only 17 ninjutsu feats with feat prerequisites. For 2 feats, you ignore 1 feat prerequisite, for 4 feats, 2 prerequisites. There are only six feats in each discipline, so you stop there. So the only "tracking", is to note beside the feat you gain through ninjutusu, from what discipline it is (three first letters should suffice), and being able to count to 4. Since DnD is a d20 based mechanic, I think everyone can, and count even higher.


Ninjutsu (Ex): At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4th level in the Ninja class, select a bonus feat from the Ninjutsu feat list; you may ignore all pre-reqs these feats may possess when selecting them as Ninjutsu bonus feats, but not if selecting them as feats of any other source.
So you want to give a first level character Spring attack, or something other with requirement list 4, or more items long... ?
Didn't you say this class is frontloaded too much already ?


...lets you ignore all pre-reqs instead of just feat pre-reqs...
That's the problem, at least for me - still don't really like "giving things for free", and frankly, it's too overpowered for my tastes.


...as long as the feats for each style are changed up a bit so that they mesh better together...
It took me some time to find, and complete those lists, so "give it your best shot".


It's not because a Dwarf Ninja wouldn't be effective, but because being a Ninja is not necessarily appealing to dwarves by default. Humans and elves? Of course. Halflings? Absolutely. Gnomes? Sure, why not. But Dwarves? They're better than Half-Orc Ninjas, but still...
Only if you think of them as "natural born paladins", or use as ale smelling, belching, axe throwers.
And "evil dwarfs" fit even better.


That's a fair point, it is pretty short duration. Alright, leave it as-is.
I have my moments :]


It could be justifiable if you had a collection of active abilities to choose from, not when it comes to a passive ability.
Or a maximum number or active Ki buffs. Yeah.


Either decrease the daily resource or not, but I advise against this course of action.
Maybe it's my "pure" English, but I don't understand this bit.

nonsi
2016-04-23, 10:12 AM
Maybe it's my "pure" English, but I don't understand this bit.


Paying for Improved Evasion is an option most likely to be taken each day anew. If giving it away for free doesn't pose a balance issue - give it away for free. That 1 Ki point would make little to no difference.

AvatarVecna
2016-04-23, 10:33 AM
What tracking ? You can only ignore feat prerequisite in other feats, like the mentioned earlier prerequisite of Dodge feat, in the Mobility feat.There are only 17 ninjutsu feats with feat prerequisites. For 2 feats, you ignore 1 feat prerequisite, for 4 feats, 2 prerequisites. There are only six feats in each discipline, so you stop there. So the only "tracking", is to note beside the feat you gain through ninjutusu, from what discipline it is (three first letters should suffice), and being able to count to 4. Since DnD is a d20 based mechanic, I think everyone can, and count even higher.


So you want to give a first level character Spring attack, or something other with requirement list 4, or more items long... ?
Didn't you say this class is frontloaded too much already ?

Keeping track of whether the feats you have are part of the same sub-set of other feats for the purposes of performing a calculation to figure out what pre-reqs you can ignore is more "keeping track of stuff" than feats normally require of a player, and it's going to scare people off. It's a more complicated system than it needs to be.

As far as my idea "frontloading" the class, here's the problem: your original idea was to give them a ton of "low-power" feats, which is terrible because feats the power of a feat doesn't always relate to its pre-reqs; giving four feats for free because they don't have many pre-reqs just means that people are going to cherry-pick the most powerful feats available for free, while ignoring the high-feat-tax feats. There's even a great example: Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack are crap feats even if you get them for free; the fact that they require 2 and 4 feats respectively just makes them even worse; meanwhile, Darkstalker is a top-tier feat that has no pre-reqs at all. As a ninja, if I was given the choice between getting Darkstalker for free, or getting the entire Whirlwind Attack tree for free, I'd probably go Darkstalker unless I had a way to use shenanigans to turn the Whirlwind Attack feat tree into feats I would actually want.

Besides, even if there's something on your list that is super-powerful as well as requiring a heavy feat tax, I don't see the problem with getting it...because ultimately, you're only getting a single powerful feat at level 1...and honestly, that's the way it should work. Feats should be a significant upgrade for the character, not piddly little things like the "+1 AC against one opponent unless you forget or are Flat-Footed" that Dodge gives you.

NevinPL
2016-04-23, 03:45 PM
Keeping track of whether the feats you have are part of the same sub-set of other feats for the purposes of performing a calculation to figure out what pre-reqs you can ignore is more "keeping track of stuff" than feats normally require of a player, and it's going to scare people off.
I really don't see the problem, and I'm trying real hard.
You put a three letter note beside a feat, or whatever floats your boat, and forget about it for level and 9/10 of a level. And when you gain new ninjutsu feat(s), you don't need to be a rocket scientist, to figure out what you have, what you can ignore, and what you can get, because it's always the same: 2 feats - 1 feat prerequisite, 4 feats, 2 feat prerequisite, and only 17 feats that are "eligible" at all. End of story.
You don't need to "keep track of them" when your character gets up in the morning, no need to remember how much of them you have when going to the tavern, or dodging ogre's zweihander.
If you do that, it's not the ninjutsu's fault.

It's not really much more work than other "feat synergies" like the number of [Divine] feats required for other [Divine] feats, or number of aberrant feats, so you know how "buffed" your other aberrant feats are, and players do more tracking every round of combat, especially casters, so I really, REALLY, don't see what's the fuss is about.


It's a more complicated system than it needs to be.
No it's not. Heck, only simpler way would be to do what you proposed - just ignore all the prerequisites.


...feats the power of a feat doesn't always relate to its pre-reqs;...
Then maybe your problem with ninjutsu, it's not a problem with ninjutsu, but, hmmm, feats power-to-requirements inconsistency ?


...people are going to cherry-pick the most powerful feats available for free, while ignoring the high-feat-tax feats.
If they're having fun, and their DM allows it- Olidammara bless them, and their powergaming powercores.


...Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack are crap feats even if you get them for free; the fact that they require 2 and 4 feats respectively just makes them even worse; meanwhile, Darkstalker is a top-tier feat that has no pre-reqs at all.
And that "top tier" feat turns into nothing if you don't encounter things with blindsense, blindsight, scent, tremorsense or all-around vision. Meanwhile ability to not be a sitting duck (Spring Attack), is always* handy, "on". Whirlwind Attack is more situational, but still much less than Darkstalker.
So not really.


As a ninja, if I was given the choice between getting Darkstalker for free, or getting the entire Whirlwind Attack tree for free, I'd probably go Darkstalker unless I had a way to use shenanigans to turn the Whirlwind Attack feat tree into feats I would actually want.
Well that's the difference between me, and what seems to be the majority of people here - optimization is optional for me. I had more fun running vanilla monk NPC, than clerics, or wizards. I don't really care if (N)PC wizards does 10x100d20+9001 damage in a round, and melee class can carve whole castles, (and the mountain it sits atop) in one hit. And definitely don't have a need to do that.

I've been playing DnD for maaany years before registering here (one of the reasons behind it, was to "rekindle" that old flame), so I had the time to get bored with the power gamer\munchkin\optimized to the 11 routine.
Or maybe just got old(er).


Besides, even if there's something on your list that is super-powerful as well as requiring a heavy feat tax, I don't see the problem with getting it...because ultimately, you're only getting a single powerful feat at level 1...and honestly, that's the way it should work. Feats should be a significant upgrade for the character, not piddly little things...
In principle I agree, but since DnD is a "leveling game", there are, and should be, guidelines for taking feats, spells, etc., unless you want to unmake the whole game mechanic.
And if you do, Evasion at first level shouldn't bug you so much, after all it is what you proposing: "a significant upgrade for the character, not piddly little things" :)


..."+1 AC against one opponent unless you forget or are Flat-Footed" that Dodge gives you.
My "favorite" is Toughness, because Dodge is a "gateway", so still useful, and Toughness is just a "dead end".


What about the other things I've mentioned in that post ?

ben-zayb
2016-04-27, 05:06 AM
A few thoughts on this:

Chi Modifier (Su)
Why not make this based on either CON or WIS? That is, you can fluff that the ninja can choose whether to use his mind or his body as the gate/conduit/limiter of his spiritual force's influence on the outside world. Logically, if his physical toughness (CON) is better than his mental toughness (WIS), he can better safely channel his spiritual force through it, and vice versa. You could replace WIS with CHA, but the analogy might be weaker.

Evasion (Ex)
If you don't want Improved Evasion free by level 10, I suggest following your Ki Power minibonus template and grant Improved Evasion as long as the ninja has X amount of Ki Power available.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Uncanny Dodge in 3.5 always has that awesome clause where if you already have it from somewhere else, you get the Improved version instead. Consider adding this, too, for completeness' sake.

Ghost Strike (Su)
Consider rewording it to "...the ninja can apply the benefits of this ability to one additional attack", if only to give more clarity. Also, I suggest making the scale more intuitive and uniform, with either 2/3/4 (+1 increment starting at 2), 1/3/5 (+2 increment starting at 1), or 2/4/6 (+2 increment starting at 2).


In general, I also suggest giving most of abilities a "default" benefit regardless of whether he has Ki Power available, and I could already see that from some of its most basic features. Also, if you feel you are giving away free a particular ability on an earlier level, but not at a later level, you could give it earlier with a minimum Ki Power requirement and then later for free. For evasion, it could be like "Beginning 10th level, a ninja gains Improved Evasion as long as the ninja has at least one daily use of Ki Power remaining; beginning 17th level, he gains it unconditionally."

Now this last one is a bit tangential, but I've also made a monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404941-a-Monk-alternative-not-posted-on-a-monkday-PEACH) alternative some time ago, that also utilizes Ki (albeit less limited than yours). Feel free to draw fluff or mechanical inspiration on how it could help improving this class.:smallwink:

Good luck!

NevinPL
2016-04-27, 11:43 AM
Chi Modifier (Su)
Why not make this based on either CON or WIS?
I like my "bright idea" (1/2 level), so I'm gonna stick with it.


If you don't want Improved Evasion free by level 10...
No, gonna give it and improved uncanny D for leveling.


Uncanny Dodge in 3.5 always has that awesome clause where if you already have it from somewhere else, you get the Improved version instead. Consider adding this, too, for completeness' sake.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As in Rogue entry in Player's Handbook.
Mentioned entry has the thing you mentioned, so it's already there.


Consider rewording it to "...the ninja can apply the benefits of this ability to one additional attack", if only to give more clarity.
Sounds good.


Also, I suggest making the scale more intuitive and uniform...
It is:

2 attacks - base + 2 Ki uses,
3 attacks - base + 3 Ki uses,
all attacks - base + 5 Ki uses. Why ? Because it could be more than 4 attacks.



In general, I also suggest giving most of abilities a "default" benefit regardless of whether he has Ki Power available...
No. It would mean "splitting the hair" even further. Ninja has "un-powerd" abilities, on par with other classes, and powered ones similar to spells, and the like. I don't see a reason to make Ghost Step give what ? Half concealment ? :D Or Ki Dodge to grant 5% miss chance. Useless and unnecessary.


Feel free to draw fluff or mechanical inspiration on how it could help improving this class.:smallwink:
As a rule I don't look at other people fixes, while doing mine. Why ? I'm doing my fix.
So thank you, but not thank you.
But if it allows you to kamehameha\hadouken, I might use it in the future :)


Good luck!
Thank you.

NevinPL
2016-05-01, 10:21 AM
Made changes discussed before.
Changelog in second post.

NevinPL
2016-05-16, 04:35 PM
I guess it's perfect ;)
Collated it into a .pdf. Link at the bottom of the first post.

nonsi
2016-05-17, 12:37 AM
.
Consider spreading the class features more evenly across all levels. The way the abilities are currently spread, there's no real motivation to continue advancement in this class passed 15th level.

NevinPL
2016-05-17, 03:53 AM
Consider spreading the class features more evenly across all levels.
Since the class has only two "dead levels" (dead-ish is more accurate), I've spread it as much as I can, so "give it your best shot".


The way the abilities are currently spread, there's no real motivation to continue advancement in this class passed 15th level.
I can see 5 motivations (6, if you count Grasshopper), so are you sure we're looking at the same class ?
Explaining whats a "real motivation" for you, could be helpful too.

nonsi
2016-05-17, 06:26 AM
Since the class has only two "dead levels" (dead-ish is more accurate), I've spread it as much as I can, so "give it your best shot".


+1 to BAB & Save doesn't fill a level with content.
As far as skill usage goes, whatever you didn't achieve by level 15 won't matter later on, because the challenges at those levels increase in a faster pace than skill improvements.
So, in effect, those 2 levels are practically dead.






I can see 5 motivations (6, if you count Grasshopper), so are you sure we're looking at the same class ?
Explaining whats a "real motivation" for you, could be helpful too.


1. Same as the above - 3 Ninjutsu and +1d6 SA are not enough to fill levels 16 - 20.
2. When almost everybody around you is flying and abusing the action economy, those 18th level Grasshopper modifiers are hardly more than decoration.

NevinPL
2016-05-17, 07:07 AM
So no better idea, just criticism.
Déjà vu...

nonsi
2016-05-17, 01:52 PM
So no better idea, just criticism.
Déjà vu...

Ok, everything's perfect. Don't change a thing :P