DR 15/Epic, how do summoners deal with this?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm talking about pit fiends, balors, and solars.

Some of them even have regeneration and protection from alignment. I don't thinking killing them with melee attacks is remotely possibile. Plus they all fly.

Elementals with blasting spells are all SR:Yes, Reflex:Half. Even Storm Elementals are Reflex:Half, so with the target creature's ridiculously high saves, I doubt any of them will get past their regeneration.

And lets not forget the spells these creautres possess.

I don't think these creatures can even kill each other! XD

So how do summoners deal with these creatures? Just spam save or dies and hope one of them goes through? Or rely on the party's resident blaster sorcerer to one shot the being with an orb?

[Willie the Duck]

DR 15/epic may as well be DR 15/- for most, but it is still only 15 points. Lots of attacks can get through that. Epic or near-epic play is where summoning builds do have serious problems, though.

[eggynack]

Cast something else. Can't tell exactly what you mean by "summoner", cause it might refer to a lot of stuff, but you're almost always going to have access to a lot of non-summoning spells. Casters are really good at bypassing defenses, and a summoner is just about always a caster.

[Bobby Baratheon]

A properly equipped ubercharger might still be able to one shot it, if he can reach it.

EDIT: Summoned beatsticks may be able to get over the DR as well.

[Lans]

Isn't there a metamagic that lets you imbue a buff onto your summon?

[Pluto!]

"Summoner" as in the PF class or as in a caster who casts summoning spells?

In the latter case, cast something else.
In the former case, I assume the answer's the same, but I've never spent a lot of time on that class.

[bahamut920]

I'm talking about pit fiends, balors, and solars.

Some of them even have regeneration and protection from alignment. I don't thinking killing them with melee attacks is remotely possibile. Plus they all fly.

Elementals with blasting spells are all SR:Yes, Reflex:Half. Even Storm Elementals are Reflex:Half, so with the target creature's ridiculously high saves, I doubt any of them will get past their regeneration.

And lets not forget the spells these creautres possess.

I don't think these creatures can even kill each other! XD

So how do summoners deal with these creatures? Just spam save or dies and hope one of them goes through? Or rely on the party's resident blaster sorcerer to one shot the being with an orb?
First off, the sonic damage from storm elementals is Fort: half, IIRC. Second, summoners (assuming you're talking about a caster specc'd for optimal use of summon monster and/or summon nature's ally spells) usually have Spell Focus (Conjuration) in order to have Augment Summoning, IIRC. There are plenty of conjuration spells that are SR: No, and your Spell Focus boosts conjuration save DCs.

[magicalmagicman]

Cast something else. Can't tell exactly what you mean by "summoner", cause it might refer to a lot of stuff, but you're almost always going to have access to a lot of non-summoning spells. Casters are really good at bypassing defenses, and a summoner is just about always a caster.

Well... Lets say you're a 20th level wizard who filled up most of his higher level slots with summon monster VII-IX when this unexpected encounter occured. Or you're a sorcerer whose spell knowns are mostly summon monsters VII-IX. Your spell choices are going to be really limited.



EDIT: Summoned beatsticks may be able to get over the DR as well.

From the numbers I'm looking at, they barely go over the DR, and in the Pit Fiend's and Solar's case, I doubt they can overcome their regeneration enough to even come close to killing it.


First off, the sonic damage from storm elementals is Fort: half, IIRC. Second, summoners (assuming you're talking about a caster specc'd for optimal use of summon monster and/or summon nature's ally spells) usually have Spell Focus (Conjuration) in order to have Augment Summoning, IIRC. There are plenty of conjuration spells that are SR: No, and your Spell Focus boosts conjuration save DCs.

Ok, so it seems the answer is... "Don't use summon monster because they are going to do jack against these guys and instead cast different spells (BFC)"

[Eisfalken]

I'm talking about pit fiends, balors, and solars.

Some of them even have regeneration and protection from alignment. I don't thinking killing them with melee attacks is remotely possibile. Plus they all fly.

Elementals with blasting spells are all SR:Yes, Reflex:Half. Even Storm Elementals are Reflex:Half, so with the target creature's ridiculously high saves, I doubt any of them will get past their regeneration.

And lets not forget the spells these creautres possess.

I don't think these creatures can even kill each other! XD

So how do summoners deal with these creatures? Just spam save or dies and hope one of them goes through? Or rely on the party's resident blaster sorcerer to one shot the being with an orb?

Um... pit fiends have DR 15/good and silver. Balors have DR 15/cold iron and good. Only solars have DR 15/epic and evil.

Spells are not affected by DR, but the creatures may have immunity or resistance to energy attacks (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic).

Regeneration on solars doesn't work on epic evil weapons, or Evil descriptor spells. Balors don't have regeneration. Pit fiends' regeneration doesn't work on silver good weapons or Good descriptor spells.

Epic weapons are those that have a +6 or higher enhancement bonus. Technically, they are available for a base price of 720,000 gp for +6 enchantment. To hurt a solar, you need a +6 profane weapon (98,000 gp), and it will do 1 Con damage to the user unless they don't have a Con score (construct or undead come to mind). If you can't get a construct or undead to use this weapon, you need to make it a +6 unholy weapon, which technically does more damage anyway (but also costs an extra 30,000 gp).

All you need to hurt a balor or pit fiend is a +1 sacred weapon (8,000 gp) made of either cold iron (double base weapon cost +2,000 gp) or silver (a smidgen extra depending on weapon size/type).

Put all these weapon enchants on a bludgeoning weapon. Now cast greater mighty wallop to increase effective size (up to Colossal), or use actual size-increase spells on yourself. Give it to a rogue with sneak attack damage, and have someone (fighter or paladin) help the rogue flank; now you can add sneak attack damage to the weapon.

Get the feat Consecrate Spell to give spells the Good descriptor for +1 spell level. Get the feat Corrupt Spell to give spells the Evil descriptor for +1 spell level. If you plan to use a lot of these spells, get stuff to reduce metamagic costs here.

Disintegrate is untyped damage that bypasses DR. Even if they make the saving throw against instant death, they still take a butt-load of damage once you hit with a ranged touch attack. Oh, look, their touch AC is pathetically easy to hit (AC 16 or 17, depending on creature). They can regenerate from the raw damage, but if they take enough to kill them, they're still destroyed and won't come back from it; you just keep hitting them until they die, and they die. You can Consecrate/Corrupt it, but it does an awful lot of damage by itself, so this may not be necessary.

None of the creatures list any immunity or resistance to sonic energy, so get sonic spells. (Lesser) orb of sound spells are Conjuration and offer no saving throw. Consecrate/Corrupt those spells, and you have a ready to use source of damage. Do the same with force spells, which bypass pretty much everything out there. Oh, and sneak attack damage applies to ranged/melee touch attacks with spells, too, if you went for unseen seer.

Yes, these creatures are hard as balls to kill. That is working EXACTLY as intended.

[Anlashok]

Gate in your own balor?

[DarkSoul]

It's off topic, but a +4 or higher bane weapon will punch through epic DR. +4 unholy Good outsider bane for a solar for example, dealing weapon damage + 4d6 + 6 + other bonuses, as a +6 evil weapon.

As far as summoners go, anything with magic or epic DR strikes as that type of weapon with natural attacks, and anything with an alignment subtype strikes as that alignment with any natural or weapon attacks. Solars, for example, attack as epic (because of DR) good (because of subtype) weapons with any natural attack and as good weapons with their sword. If you can't summon something that will beat a given DR, try gating something instead.

Also, DR doesn't affect any damage other than weapons or natural attacks. It doesn't affect spells at all.

[eggynack]

Well... Lets say you're a 20th level wizard who filled up most of his higher level slots with summon monster VII-IX when this unexpected encounter occured. Or you're a sorcerer whose spell knowns are mostly summon monsters VII-IX. Your spell choices are going to be really limited.

The second scenario doesn't really make sense, cause the summon monsters are one spell apiece, no matter what. You should have at least three other spells to work with here. The first scenario makes theoretical sense, but, y'know, it shouldn't make practical sense. You have like six spells here, more with high intelligence. Some of those shouldn't be summoning. More importantly, a lot of your lower level spells shouldn't be summoning. A well applied 6th should be having bunches of impact, even on high leveled monsters.

[MisterKaws]

Gate in your own balor?

Exactly, that's my kind of summoner.

[Bullet06320]

Summon Undead, the original version from magic of faerun, lets you summon Huge skeletons. its basically the same spell as Summon Monster with a different list of critters to summon, and there are rules in Dragon Magazine 302 about adding other creatures, so its just a matter of a spellcraft check to add them to your list.

we house rule it at my table it works with the rapid summoning ACF, it makes sense anyways

so summon huge skeletons, in the MM the example of huge skeletons uses cloud giants, surround the balor with them so they are flanking to get the bonus to hit, and go to town. if he tries to teleport away, ooooo attacks of opportunity, killed a balor accidently that way once in 1 round at level 8, lol

and you can gate in specific creatures, equip them with extra gear, then summon them later, and they show up with the extra special gear you equiped them with

[fishyfishyfishy]

It's off topic, but a +4 or higher bane weapon will punch through epic DR. +4 unholy Good outsider bane for a solar for example, dealing weapon damage + 4d6 + 6 + other bonuses, as a +6 evil weapon.

That's not how it works at all. Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) that is bypassed by Epic weapons requires the weapon to have a +6 enhancement bonus or higher. The weapon you describe is still only +4 weapon, despite it's effective enhancement being +6 for crafting purposes and determining the market value.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

[hamishspence]

The weapon you describe is still only +4 weapon, despite it's effective enhancement being +6 for crafting purposes and determining the market value.


And for damage:


Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus.


However - I could see "Effective enhancement bonus of +6 for damage purposes" as not counting as actual enhancement bonus of +6 for Epic Weapon purposes.

[Malimar]

That's not how it works at all. Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) that is bypassed by Epic weapons requires the weapon to have a +6 enhancement bonus or higher. The weapon you describe is still only +4 weapon, despite it's effective enhancement being +6 for crafting purposes and determining the market value.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

I believe DarkSoul is counting on the fact that Outsider(Evil)-Bane gives a weapon an extra +2 against Outsider(Evil)s, for a total of a +6 effective enhancement bonus.


A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition.

EDIT: swordsage'd

[MesiDoomstalker]

That's not how it works at all. Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) that is bypassed by Epic weapons requires the weapon to have a +6 enhancement bonus or higher. The weapon you describe is still only +4 weapon, despite it's effective enhancement being +6 for crafting purposes and determining the market value.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)
Bane raises the effective +X against its target by 2. So a +4 Bane weapon would be effectively a +6 (and thus Epic) versus the appropriate target.

[hamishspence]

Another option - more Summon-ey: use Miniatures Handbook, Dragon Magic, etc. Planar Ally and Planar Binding can be used to call Aspects - and these have low HD (so easy to call) and DR 5/epic - so overcome DR/epic with their natural attacks.

[Urpriest]

Grappling is probably your best option. Most of the high-end outsiders you mention aren't all that big, summoning a Gargantuan grappler will get them to waste actions while the rest of your party does the damage.

[charcoalninja]

Swarms of Lantern Archons. They Gestalt and pew pew for 2d6 a ray that bypasses all resistance. Or they Attack in base form for 1d6 per ray with a lot more attacks.

Baseline Lantern Archons hits a balor on a 16 so enough of them would do some nice hammering.

[fishyfishyfishy]

However - I could see "Effective enhancement bonus of +6 for damage purposes" as not counting as actual enhancement bonus of +6 for Epic Weapon purposes.

That is what I'm inferring from the way the text is written.



Bane raises the effective +X against its target by 2. So a +4 Bane weapon would be effectively a +6 (and thus Epic) versus the appropriate target.

I did not consider this at all however. That's a viable way of looking at it I suppose.

[Zale]

Swarms of Lantern Archons. They Gestalt and pew pew for 2d6 a ray that bypasses all resistance. Or they Attack in base form for 1d6 per ray with a lot more attacks.

Baseline Lantern Archons hits a balor on a 16 so enough of them would do some nice hammering.

I'm captivated by the image this entails. Imagine if you will:

The mighty Balor, a beast of the infinite flames of the abyss, rises up with a terrible visage. Wings of fire spread from his back; in one hand a many many-tongued whip flickers hungrily through the air in the other a sword forged from raw lightning shudders. The air around him stinks of sulfur and rings with the cries of tormented souls.

And behold, the challenger, a wizard wise in her craft. Through charms and arcane secrets, she bends the planes to her will. Mighty creatures, those who would conquer nations, prostrate themselves before her. She knows the secret names of the elements, the true identities of demon lords and archdevils. She wields a staff of dragon-bone and wears the gray robes the high archmagi.

She raises her staff high; speaks with infinite authority. She chants the ancient names of the elements, invokes the cosmic principles of the multiverse. The wizard calls upon her servants, dragging them from the lofty heavens they dwell into to do battle at her command.

With a deafening roar, a dozen twinkly lights appear before her. They hover intermittently and jingle terrible threats in tiny voices.

The Balor's eyes widen and his body begins to shake with a deep, brassy laugh. The air trembles from the force of his voice; fire ripples away from him as it imitates his humor. Finally, after some time has passed, he regains his composure and calmly speaks a single word.

It is a terrible thing. An ancient wrong. A sound so vile none can hear it. A symbol so wretched no ink can hold it, no stone can bear it's markings. A profound and dark blasphemy against all that is good in the world.

It ripples out from him, catching the tiny spirits in its wake. It rips their corpus apart, transforming the soul-substance that is their body to nothing but vapor; damning their broken spirits to a thousand years of dark torment.

The Balor smiles wickedly; the battle continues.

[Akal Saris]

Well, it's not an opponent I'd want to face as a high level summoner...

Let's assume a high level malconvoker wizard, since that's probably the most likely scenario. Wiz 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 7, for example.

In this scenario, I'd probably summon a pair of colossal fiendish spiders as a standard action and have both attempt to grapple the Balor. One will be stopped by the AOO while the other should succeed with a ~52 grapple check vs. a 36. As a swift action (master specialist 10) summon two more monsters with decent damage and to-hit. Have them ready actions to attack the balor if it tries to use a SLA.

Now, if the Balor were wearing a Ring of Free Action, that would certainly ruin those plans :)

Alternate plan: Round 1, summon 1d3+1 Hollyphants (BoED 176, SM VIII). Each has a 3/day trumpet blast that stuns for 1 round even on a save, and it's supernatural so the SR won't help. Assuming that you have one use its blast each round, the Balor should be on complete lockdown while your other summoned monsters in following rounds chip away at its health.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, it's not an opponent I'd want to face as a high level summoner...

Let's assume a high level malconvoker wizard, since that's probably the most likely scenario. Wiz 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 7, for example.

In this scenario, I'd probably summon a pair of colossal fiendish spiders as a standard action and have both attempt to grapple the Balor. One will be stopped by the AOO while the other should succeed with a ~52 grapple check vs. a 36. As a swift action (master specialist 10) summon two more monsters with decent damage and to-hit. Have them ready actions to attack the balor if it tries to use a SLA.

Now, if the Balor were wearing a Ring of Free Action, that would certainly ruin those plans :)

Alternate plan: Round 1, summon 1d3+1 Hollyphants (BoED 176, SM VIII). Each has a 3/day trumpet blast that stuns for 1 round even on a save, and it's supernatural so the SR won't help. Assuming that you have one use its blast each round, the Balor should be on complete lockdown while your other summoned monsters in following rounds chip away at its health.

The spider one kind of fails because Balors can fly. And if they dominate one of them then... you're screwed XD.

The hollyphants however, oh my f***ing god! Holy F***ing ****! Perma goddamn stun! This, this alone should allow you to annihilate every creature, even epics, as long as the creature is not immune to stun.

Goddamn it, I was so sure about going partial orb blaster, now I am not sure. I'm a go re-run all of my theoretical combat scenarios. I wanna be able to kill solars and dragons with 1 planar bound balor + me, and I like summons more than orbs. Orbs are definitely superior than summons in all aspects (one shotting > BFC including perma stun. Even a character with only 5 feats devoted to blasting could deal 220 damage with one orb), but if I can kill solars with balor + me, no one else, then I'm going summons!

Edit:Ok, scenarios are a questionable success. Rapid Spell Hollyphant for 3 rounds of stun on first turn, then summon 1d3 of them, and Balors can land enough attacks and do enough damage to overcome the solar's DR, but since all its attacks would be nonlethal because they're all non-epic evil, probably using his implosion spell would be better, which is subject to spell resistance. I guess literally, the only way to kill a solar pre-epic as a spellcaster of any sort is to disable it and spam save-or-dies.

[Psyren]

Bane raises the effective +X against its target by 2. So a +4 Bane weapon would be effectively a +6 (and thus Epic) versus the appropriate target.

This is explicitly how it works (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl#v5748eaic9r5f) in Pathfinder.

[charcoalninja]

I'm captivated by the image this entails. Imagine if you will:

The mighty Balor, a beast of the infinite flames of the abyss, rises up with a terrible visage. Wings of fire spread from his back; in one hand a many many-tongued whip flickers hungrily through the air in the other a sword forged from raw lightning shudders. The air around him stinks of sulfur and rings with the cries of tormented souls.

And behold, the challenger, a wizard wise in her craft. Through charms and arcane secrets, she bends the planes to her will. Mighty creatures, those who would conquer nations, prostrate themselves before her. She knows the secret names of the elements, the true identities of demon lords and archdevils. She wields a staff of dragon-bone and wears the gray robes the high archmagi.

She raises her staff high; speaks with infinite authority. She chants the ancient names of the elements, invokes the cosmic principles of the multiverse. The wizard calls upon her servants, dragging them from the lofty heavens they dwell into to do battle at her command.

With a deafening roar, a dozen twinkly lights appear before her. They hover intermittently and jingle terrible threats in tiny voices.

The Balor's eyes widen and his body begins to shake with a deep, brassy laugh. The air trembles from the force of his voice; fire ripples away from him as it imitates his humor. Finally, after some time has passed, he regains his composure and calmly speaks a single word.

It is a terrible thing. An ancient wrong. A sound so vile none can hear it. A symbol so wretched no ink can hold it, no stone can bear it's markings. A profound and dark blasphemy against all that is good in the world.

It ripples out from him, catching the tiny spirits in its wake. It rips their corpus apart, transforming the soul-substance that is their body to nothing but vapor; damning their broken spirits to a thousand years of dark torment.

The Balor smiles wickedly; the battle continues.

Totally nifty but he can do that once and it only has a 40' range so if the little guys go in waves he won't get them all. And of course the Wizard could use silence to negate Blasphemy entirely so instead a swarm of lights dance around the beast like 4th of July and blast forth lasers tearing the arrogant beast apart.

Greater Planar Binding gives 9 of them (enough to Gestalt) and Gate gets you 18 or so? Bind a small force, have your simulacrum scy you the whole time, then when big bad is encountered you summon, quick summon (must be some way to do it) which nabs you 9 more. The summons eat the blas, then your buds telepirt in and each round you summon another 9 giving you 18d6 points of potential damage each round.

These little guys quickly get out of control IMO

[fishyfishyfishy]

Balors have Blasphemy at-will, not 1/day. I'm not certain where you're getting that idea. And it is much more likely to go before any Lantern Archon. Silence is only going to effect a small area that it can move out of easily, unless it is targeted directly in which case it gets both a Will save and spell resistance. It has the superior mobility to keep outside the area of silence and outside the range of their laser beam and force them to approach.

That's not even touching it's other at-will SLA's

[MesiDoomstalker]

Balors have Blasphemy at-will, not 1/day. I'm not certain where you're getting that idea. And it is much more likely to go before any Lantern Archon. Silence is only going to effect a small area that it can move out of easily, unless it is targeted directly in which case it gets both a Will save and spell resistance. It has the superior mobility to keep outside the area of silence and outside the range of their laser beam and force them to approach.

That's not even touching it's other at-will SLA's

Silence on yourself, not the Balor. If you can't hear it, you are not affected.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Silence on yourself, not the Balor. If you can't hear it, you are not affected.

That's not going to help. Now you can't cast your summon spells. Unless you specifically prepared for this scenario and you have silent spell or a Metamagic Rod. If we're getting into specific preparation there's a lot more you can do.

[charcoalninja]

Ah I see. I defaulted to Pathfinder. PF Balor only has it 1/day. Course it has power word stun at will which would do the job.

But regardless, the summons act when they pop in so when the Wizard summons his 9 or so Lanterns they all get to pewpew full attack for 18 touch attacks. Any round big B doesn't clear the field is a round Wizo brings in another 9.