Light Cleric Build Advice

[daendil]

Greetings, all!

I'm in a group gearing up to run Curse of Strahd and the Light domain Cleric caught my fancy. This will be only my second 5e campaign so I could use some advice for my build.

I'm going with Variant Human, standard array. Final ability scores are: STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 8. Scale Mail, Shield. No melee weapon (yet).

Leaning toward War Caster for my starting feat. I shouldn't HAVE to be in the front lines, despite my 18 AC at 1st level, but still thought that the Warcaster benefits would be nice. However, would Elemental Adept (Fire) be a better choice, particularly if I don't need to be in the front, and considering the campaign?

I've read that I should use the level 4 and 8 boosts to get to 20 WIS ASAP. Has anyone played a similar build far enough to judge the benefit?

Thanks in advance for any pointers!

[CaptAl]

Warcaster is good, but not super necessary from word go. Being a Cleric allows for your shield as a focus, so, as long as you keep your main hand free you don't have to have it. That being said, advantage on concentration checks is always good.

Resilient CON isn't a bad choice either. Elemental adept is solid, though I'm not sure at what point you'll encounter enough resistant mobs to make it worthwhile.

[Rysto]

Warcaster is good, but not super necessary from word go. Being a Cleric allows for your shield as a focus, so, as long as you keep your main hand free you don't have to have it. That being said, advantage on concentration checks is always good.

For a Light Cleric I think that the best part is allowing the use of a spell as an AoE. Light Clerics need to prioritize Dex or Str because they only get medium armour, but they don't get martial weapons so their melee options suck. The real question is how often he'll need it if he's not on the front lines.

[CaptAl]

For a Light Cleric I think that the best part is allowing the use of a spell as an AoE. Light Clerics need to prioritize Dex or Str because they only get medium armour, but they don't get martial weapons so their melee options suck. The real question is how often he'll need it if he's not on the front lines.

The spells for AoO is useful, but only if he's getting them. That part of Warcaster is great for a Gish and nearly worthless as a back line caster.

[daendil]

Thanks for the responses!

Everything said so far is in line with what I've considered. I'll circle back with the other party members, and if we definitely have the front lines covered, I'll probably go with Resilient (CON) as my starting feat. Get to 20 WIS at level 8, and then pick up Elemental Adept (Fire) at 12 when we'll be more likely to run into mobs with fire resistance.

Of course, I'll probably change my mind at least once before we start in a few weeks... :smallbiggrin:

[Vemynal]

Level 9 Adventure League Light Cleric here.

Yes, definitely get Wisdom to 20 *stat*. Your Sacred Flame Save DC and your Spell Attack Bonus depend on it.

Other Advice:
Your Domain spells are mostly damage spells and you always have them prepared. So for your daily spell selections pick healing, buffing, and utility spells since you can always Sacred Flame, Scorching Ray, or Fireball if you need to do damage.

Truthfully, after Sacred Flame gets its second d8 you'll never really use your melee weapon ever again so I wouldn't bother investing much into melee combat. My Str is an 8 and I do great in the damage department with cantrips/spells. Dex however you're going to want at least a +2 modifier in because it'll help you AC (and *always* wear a shield).

Never be afraid to enter melee (even though you probably shouldn't be hitting with melee options). Pump that AC up as high as you can with your medium armor self; your warding flare ability allows you to impose disadvantage on your attacker. This allows you to absorb a decent amount of damage that the rest of your party doesn't have too. You can afford to be a little tanky (mind, I'm the dwarf subrace that gets the extra +1hp).

Once you get Imp. Warding Flare and can use in on other members of your party they will all love you. However, don't invest in anything feat wise that utilizes your reaction. You'll want to hold onto it for Warding Flare option (or if you take War Caster so you can use your Sacred Flame cantrip if someone leaves your threatened area).

Your channel divinity ability is a radiant damage AOE. This is *awesome*. If you get surrounded by little guys feel free to wade into the thick of it and AOE as many times as you're able and still standing.

Bless is your friend. Bless is a *literal* godsend in your case. There have been many, many times where I have burned a 3rd or 4th level spell slot on Bless just so I could get as many members of my party as possible (4th level Bless is 6 people). *Always* Bless yourself because you get the 1d4 to your Concentration save to keep Bless up. Note: You also get Bless on Death Saves! As said, this spell rules.

Because Bless is so amazing you'll rarely utilize other Concentration spells. I think the only one I ever use is Banishment.

The only time it becomes advantageous to heal in combat is when when an ally is down and no longer can contribute actions to combat. By healing the player you increase the number of actions your team are able to take in combat.

Holy Word > Cure Wounds 99% of the time. Reasoning: Its a Bonus Action and can be used from a distance. This allows you to bring back a downed ally (as mentioned above) while still possibly contributing damage to the combat (If you use a Bonus Action spell you can still use Sacred Flame, a Cantrip, for your main Action).

My personal spell list (unless there is a given reason to change it):
Cantrips - Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy. Spare the Dying and Mending next.

level 1 - Bless, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Sanctuary. Domains Burning Hands & Faerie Fire.

level 2 - Silence, Spiritual Weapon (doesn't require concentration), Prayer of Healing, Lesser Restoration. Domains Flaming Sphere & Scorching Ray.

level 3 - Dispel Magic, Mass Healing Word, Revivify. Domains Daylight & Fireball.

level 4 - Banishment, Death Ward. Domains Guardians of Faith & Wall of Fire.

As for feats the only ones relevant to you are going to be War Caster and *maybe* Resilient Con (they do stack their usefulness after all). I'd suggest:

ASI:
level 1 feat - War Caster
level 4 ASI - +2 Wis
level 8 ASI - +2 Wis
level 12 ASI - +2 Con or Resilient Con
level 16 ASI - +2 Con or Resilient Con
level 19 ASI - +2 Con or Resilient Con

*If* you find yourself running into a lot of Fire Resistant things during your campaign you could take the Elemental Adept feat at 12, 16, or 19 but I suggest otherwise (and since Cure of Strahd goes to like level 12 at most...well you see my point).

Hope this all helps!!!

[daendil]

Wow, thanks Vemynal! Really appreciate the detailed response!

Feeling pretty good about my direction so far. I planned on using my Sacred Flame as an alternative to a melee attack, but will probably keep a mace or something on hand just in case. Curious: have you run into any issues with silence inhibiting your ability to use spells instead of melee attacks?

Also, I was thinking of making my shield my spell focus/holy symbol (or having it mounted to the front of the shield). I'm sure that's all good until I lose my shield, but I don't recall that being an issue in my limited 5e playing experience. Any thoughts?

Thanks again, everyone! I'm chomping at the bit to get after Strahd!

[Rysto]

With Str 10 and Dex 14, you'd do more damage with a Dagger than a mace. The mace will do 1d6 damage (average 3.5) while the dagger will do 1d4 + 2 (average 4.5). The dagger will hit more often too, because you get to add your +2 Dex modifier to the attack roll as well.

As I said, melee weapon options for the light cleric are pretty crappy. But Sacred Flame's damage scales with level and it doesn't have disadvantage in melee, so it's perfectly workable to wade into melee. Using Sacred Flame as your go-to damage option also means that you keep your hands free if you need to cast another spell.

In combat having your holy symbol on your shield is nice. Out of combat, it strikes me as a bit impractical to be lugging your shield around absolutely everywhere. For my Light Cleric I've opted to go with an amulet to start and I'll probably get a second holy symbol on my shield later.

[daendil]

With Str 10 and Dex 14, you'd do more damage with a Dagger than a mace. The mace will do 1d6 damage (average 3.5) while the dagger will do 1d4 + 2 (average 4.5). The dagger will hit more often too, because you get to add your +2 Dex modifier to the attack roll as well.

Good point - wasn't thinking about being able to use my DEX modifier for a finesse weapon. Was going to go mace more for flavor than anything else, but I think I may have to take the higher hit chance and extra damage! :smallwink:



In combat having your holy symbol on your shield is nice. Out of combat, it strikes me as a bit impractical to be lugging your shield around absolutely everywhere. For my Light Cleric I've opted to go with an amulet to start and I'll probably get a second holy symbol on my shield later.

Food for thought... My DM is fair, but I can totally see him going after that damn shield mercilessly if it serves as my spell focus/holy symbol!

[Vemynal]

Curious: have you run into any issues with silence inhibiting your ability to use spells instead of melee attacks?

Truthfully I've yet to have a DM try this particular trick against me, however I don't believe silence can be cast on a person. I believe it has to be cast on a location or an item not worn by a person. So moving out of its range is more than possible (even if you have to waste a turn utilizing the disengage action).

[RickAllison]

Truthfully I've yet to have a DM try this particular trick against me, however I don't believe silence can be cast on a person. I believe it has to be cast on a location or an item not worn by a person. So moving out of its range is more than possible (even if you have to waste a turn utilizing the disengage action).

Silence is best combined with breaking into places or in tandem with grapplers.

[rhouck]

However, would Elemental Adept (Fire) be a better choice, particularly if I don't need to be in the front, and considering the campaign?

Yorrin spent time compiling the number of creatures with Fire resistance here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379165-MM-Resistances-Immunities-Vulnerabilities-and-Damage

I did my analysis of the numbers and my conclusion was that fire resistance is oversold as a potential problem in most campaigns. First, remember that it only affects resistant creatures -- not fire immune creatures. Second, of the 38 monsters with fire resistance, 21 of them are fiends. So unless your campaign fights a lot of fiends, the issue of fire resistance just doesn't come up that often.

I would skip it and stick with the recommendations made by Vemynal for feats/ASIs.

I counted 38 fire resistant creatures (Yorrin had 37, so I may have made an error) and 40 fire immune creatures. That sounds like a lot!

However, first it is important to remember that there are 430 stat blocks for monsters/creatures/etc. (I'll refer to them all as "monsters") in the Monster Manual. So even with 40 fire immune creatures, your DM still has stat blocks for another 390 monsters in the book -- a fire-specialized caster will hardly be useless against over 90% of the monsters.

Second, of those 40, 8 are "good" monsters, which you are unlikely to face.

Third, of the remaining 32 that are evil/neutral/unaligned, they are not evenly spread across the creature types:
- 13 of them are fiends (e.g., pit fiend, balor)
- 8 of them are elementals (e.g., fire elemental, mephits)
- 5 are evil dragons (e.g., red dragon)
- 1 is the Tarrasque

A similar pattern holds up for those that are fire resistant, with 21 of the 38 being "fiends".


So returning to the question that prompted this: is fire really that bad?
- Answer: it depends on your campaign. Fire resistance/immunity is heavily skewed due to fiends, with 34 of the fire immune/resistant monsters falling into that category -- nearly half of the total 70 non-good fire immune/resistant monsters. So if you will end up fighting a lot of fiends in your campaign, then fire might not be for you.
- Keep in mind, however, that of 21 fire resistant monsters, only 1 of them is not also resistant to cold (in fact, of the 38 total fire resistant creatures, 31 of them are also resistant to cold). And of the 13 fire immune fiends, 11 are also resistant (and 1 immune) to cold. Yorrin mentions this as a reason not to just carry fire and cold spells if you are worried about immunities.
- Fire has the most damage spells available, especially at the highest levels, especially for big AoE spells.
- There also 8 non-good monsters which are fire damage vulnerable.

It also makes me second-guess the elemental adept feat (which the raw numbers seemed to make it seem like a "must have" for a fire caster):
- It does nothing for fire immunity.
- Unless you are fighting fiends regularly, there are only 17 non-fiends with resistance -- less than 4% of all the monsters.
- I'm not sure if the damage boost is enough to make up for it (e.g, fireballs do 29.3 average damage instead of 28). I haven't done all the math, but boosting the primary stat to raise your spell DC seems like it will come out ahead for the vast majority of monsters.

tl;dr -- don't give up on fire or think it is a necessity to have elemental adept based purely on the raw number of monsters with resistances/immunities. Unless you fight a lot of fiends, it will rarely come up. It also makes me wish for the old Monstrous Manual stat of "Frequency" -- while that is obviously campaign dependent, it would have been interesting to see how these monsters fell into each category (e.g., pit fiends were "very rare" and that was on their own plane, whereas goblins were merely "uncommon" and found in any non-arctic land).

[Grod_The_Giant]

A light Cleric? Probably Halfling; they look like the smallest race. Gnome might work but they seem a little sturdier; I bet the average Gnome weighs more than the average Halfling.

[daendil]

A light Cleric? Probably Halfling; they look like the smallest race. Gnome might work but they seem a little sturdier; I bet the average Gnome weighs more than the average Halfling.

Glad you spoke up. Was going to go Gnome, and every pound counts!