Intelligent Defense

[BiblioRook]

So after all this time I finally got a chance to get into a 5th edition game and I have to say I can see why people like it so much. Without going into me getting wowed at looking into the system with relatively fresh eyes looking over the other classes one thing kind of stuck out to me, lots of classes get some pretty great bonuses unarmored. I mean, Barbarians get +Con on top of the usual +Dex, Monks likewise with +Wis, and even Sorcerers have the option of having a Natural AC of 13 starting out. All in all, as a rogue, I have to say it really makes my limited access to leather armor really rather paltry, especially when (currently) getting hit to often is rather becoming a concern in my game.

Just a thought, still not really knowing all there is about the system, I wondered if there was simply a way of getting +Int to defense, even if it comes with the trade-off of not using normal armor.


Edit: I guess really any helpful advice at helping out on defense would be welcome. Like for example on being small, does that still help any? So far the only impact I saw for being Small is the inability to use 'Heavy' weapons and I figure that really can't be all there is to that...

[JNAProductions]

That's all there is to it.

And be a BladeSinger.

[RickAllison]

That's all there is to it.

And be a BladeSinger.

This. 2 levels of Bladesinger gets +Int to AC, three castings of Shield for +5 AC, and that's on top of your armor.

12 base from leather armor, +X from Dex, +Y from Int gets you up to 22 AC, the same as a Barb with his shield. Then you get to surpass him with Shield, magic armor, or other defensive spells.

[Saeviomage]

So after all this time I finally got a chance to get into a 5th edition game and I have to say I can see why people like it so much. Without going into me getting wowed at looking into the system with relatively fresh eyes looking over the other classes one thing kind of stuck out to me, lots of classes get some pretty great bonuses unarmored. I mean, Barbarians get +Con on top of the usual +Dex, Monks likewise with +Wis, and even Sorcerers have the option of having a Natural AC of 13 starting out. All in all, as a rogue, I have to say it really makes my limited access to leather armor really rather paltry, especially when (currently) getting hit to often is rather becoming a concern in my game.

All of the following assume that you're using the standard array or points buy:

As a rogue, your weapons key off of dex, and your skills key off of dex. You aren't intended to be the toughest person around.

You can wear studded leather, making your AC 12 + dex, and your dex is most likely going to be your highest stat, giving you an AC of ~15.

A monk might be able to scrape together a +3 stat bonus from dex and a +2 stat bonus from wisdom. He loses most of his class abilities if he wears armor, so he ends up with an ac of ~15.

Sorcerors don't get as much bang for buck with dex, so it's not likely to be above +2 (and even +2 is probably higher than average), and they'll end up with 15 ac.

Barbarians ARE supposed to be some of the toughest folks around, but if they invest in dex, it again gets a reduced benefit thanks to their class abilities requiring strength attacks. He needs to have a 16 con in order to compete with a chain shirt, and an 18 con to compete with scale. If he's packing 16 con and 14 dex, he's shortchanging his strength some to get an AC the same as you.

Really, the only people likely to have a starting AC better than you are ranged or finesse weapon characters in medium armor and melee characters who choose to wield shields. The best you'll see is a fighter or paladin in scale mail wielding a rapier and shield at AC 18.

In short - much ado about nothing.

[JohnStone]

As mentioned above AC is pretty standard through the classes.

Perhaps you should consider changing your tactics to avoid getting attacked in the first place. As a rogue you should be skirmishing, that is using your movement and Cunning Action to dart in and out of combat making attacks along the way.

[Inevitability]

Being small doesn't help you not getting hit, except indirectly. A small creature can hide more easily, for example.

And know that rogues may not have extraordinary AC, their defensive abilities aren't bad at all. Uncanny Dodge allows you to halve the damage of one hit per turn, cunning action lets you dart in and out of melee, and arcane tricksters can select Shield.

If improving AC is your main goal, you can be an arcane trickster (as said before) or gain proficiency with shields somehow. It'll make two-weapon fighting impossible, but you have other things to do with your bonus action.

[BiblioRook]

I wouldn't say that it's my main goal really, just something I saw as desperately needing an improvement. It almost seems rather moot though I guess, just today in fact our Paladin with his crazy 22 AC still seemed to get hit 3/5ths of the time... But yeah, so far I've adopted the ol' shot-and-hide tactic to try to keep out of harms way.
I guess it's just coming from a 3.5/Pathfinder mentality that it's rather hard to accept that there isn't much in the way of being able to get my AC much over 15 (which honestly just feels pathetic) without going out of my way in specializing in doing just and only that...

[Dimcair]

Keep in mind that it is expected to be hit more often in 5e than in 3.5 when it comes to opponents you think you have the advantage on. 'Bounded Accuracy' means these small goblins will still be a threat to you even if you are a higher level.

[Arkhios]

I guess it's just coming from a 3.5/Pathfinder mentality that it's rather hard to accept that there isn't much in the way of being able to get my AC much over 15 (which honestly just feels pathetic) without going out of my way in specializing in doing just and only that...

That's pretty much what I'd say is the biggest "problem" here. Being accustomed to accelerated progress in AC value at so soon is fatal for the game itself. Conversely, not having an easy access to above 20 AC for just about every class is a huge improvement from 3.5/Pathfinder. Back when I began my playing somewhere around 3.0 transition to 3.5, I was told and I accepted the fact that AC 15 was meant to be actually pretty average Armor Class value. The magic item shenanigans prevalent in those games simply f**ked up the balance of the game. At worst, I myself have accomplished getting AC over 30 at only level 3 in pathfinder, and that's just ridiculous! Bounded Accuracy is so much better in terms of game balance. Even as a high level Hero you won't be a god trampling everything under your superiority, and that's a good thing. It keeps the game exciting to the end. Being able to practically deny any hits from any monsters before the game has reached it's peak tends to make the game really frustrating from the DM's part. It's not as fun for DM as it might seem from a player's point of view.

[HoarsHalberd]

I wouldn't say that it's my main goal really, just something I saw as desperately needing an improvement. It almost seems rather moot though I guess, just today in fact our Paladin with his crazy 22 AC still seemed to get hit 3/5ths of the time... But yeah, so far I've adopted the ol' shot-and-hide tactic to try to keep out of harms way.
I guess it's just coming from a 3.5/Pathfinder mentality that it's rather hard to accept that there isn't much in the way of being able to get my AC much over 15 (which honestly just feels pathetic) without going out of my way in specializing in doing just and only that...

As a rogue, you should be on a 17 by level 8. You add your whole dex mod to AC in defence.

[MrFahrenheit]

As a rogue, you should be using your bonus action to hide and avoid even being a target in the first place as often as possible.

[HoarsHalberd]

As a rogue, you should be using your bonus action to hide and avoid even being a target in the first place as often as possible.

I mean if he's a melee rogue without a very permissive DM he will not be getting to use his bonus action to hide very often.

[BiblioRook]

I mean if he's a melee rogue without a very permissive DM he will not be getting to use his bonus action to hide very often.

Sort of doing it half-and-half with melee and range so far. Mostly ranged but with the way combat has been going more then often the fights come to me rather then me to it. So far I've been getting away with successfully hiding to avoid fighting derectly because all the action has been in forests, but even then my DM seems to be looking to nitpick me trying to hide all the time. For example I once made the mistake to hide first then moved (still trying to be stealthy doing so mind you) instead of I guess the other way around but he insisted the movement made my Hide irrelevant and everyone suddenly knew exactly where I was. I also have a feeling we are about to move from the forest to a more cave environment and if/when that happens I'm fairly certain he's going to start challenging me about not being able to find anything to hide behind, and when that happens I'm fairly certain I will likely die.


As a rogue, you should be on a 17 by level 8. You add your whole dex mod to AC in defence.

Some explanation would be nice instead of just maybe assuming I know what you are talking about, although I'm pretty sure we won't be getting to level 8 by the end of this campaign anyways.
Right now my AC is 14 which is Dex (+3) and Armor (+1), I soon should be getting my Studded Leather, but that only brings me to 15.

[burninatortrog]

Rogues get their defense from various sources.

From 1st level, Dexterity is your primary stat. This means you don't have to choose between boosting your AC and boosting your main stat - you get to have your cake and eat it too.

From 2nd level you can use your Cunning Action feature to disengage from melee combat or dash behind cover. These are both great ways to put distance between yourself and your enemies, which is a great way to avoid being hit.

At 4th level, you can boost your Dexterity, which is an AC boost right there.

At 5th level, you get Uncanny Dodge, which will make your life one hell of a lot easier.

So don't worry, just by being a Rogue you'll get a lot of little bonuses that will add up over time and make you harder to hit, even if your AC isn't as high as the paladin's.

[HoarsHalberd]

Sort of doing it half-and-half with melee and range so far. Mostly ranged but with the way combat has been going more then often the fights come to me rather then me to it. So far I've been getting away with successfully hiding to avoid fighting derectly because all the action has been in forests, but even then my DM seems to be looking to nitpick me trying to hide all the time. For example I once made the mistake to hide first then moved (still trying to be stealthy doing so mind you) instead of I guess the other way around but he insisted the movement made my Hide irrelevant and everyone suddenly knew exactly where I was. I also have a feeling we are about to move from the forest to a more cave environment and if/when that happens I'm fairly certain he's going to start challenging me about not being able to find anything to hide behind, and when that happens I'm fairly certain I will likely die.

Some explanation would be nice instead of just maybe assuming I know what you are talking about, although I'm pretty sure we won't be getting to level 8 by the end of this campaign anyways.
Right now my AC is 14 which is Dex (+3) and Armor (+1), I soon should be getting my Studded Leather, but that only brings me to 15.


Okay, first point. He's wrong that hide then move invalidates hide, hiding is the action taken to denote stealth, so if you can stealth and walk you can hide and walk. Second point, when cave combat happens, get the group to use chokepoints, most caves shouldn't be over 15 foot in diameter the whole way through, and hence the paladin can block up the tunnel by forcing opponents to take the disengage action to get past him. Thirdly, if enemies are constantly rushing past the nearest target to attack you then your DM is not playing them logically. They shouldn't know who the lowest AC is and most enemies will target the biggest threat.

As for AC. At class levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19 you get ability score improvements. (additionally as a rogue you get one extra at level 10) This an be used to increase dexterity, so before long you should be in studded leather, with +4 Dex and hence have 16.

[BiblioRook]

For what it's worth the DM has been seemingly pretty fair at spreading the damage evenly when applicable and not really targeting one of use over any of the others, it's just as a whole we seem to be in dire straits in terms of suitability. I don't know if it's a balancing issue, just unlucky rolls, or maybe the DM actively trying to kill us, but easily we have at least one party member knocked below 0 per battle (with a one-hit fatality on our first day in what was I'm pretty sure was supposed to be a scripted battle we were supposed to 'lose' but still survive) which is why I'm rather nervous about our survivability as a whole. So far I've been resisting the urge to stat check behind the DMs back, but something seems up when generic guards are doing upwards of 17 damage a hit when even our tank only has along the lines of 20 hp...