When to "dip" Arcane Trickster/Blade Singer

[AmbientRaven]

Hi Folks,

My girlfriend has decided to GM a game, which is great as I can be a player finally!
She has a custom world setting, so I plan to basically play a feral tiefling religious magical assassin who sings the death song of her targets as she fights.
The concept is based from a combination of Szeth (Way of Kings), Nightcrawler (X-Men) and Silas (DaVinci code).

We start at level three and it has been ok'd to play a tiefling bladesinger.

I am thinking of ending up as 14AT/6BS eventually.
I am thinking of going either
4 Trickster -> 2 Bladesinger -> 5 Trickster -> 4 Bladesinger -> Rest Rogue
4 Trickster -> 6 Bladesinger -> Rest Trickster

What are your thoughts?

Also for ASI I am torn between starting with +2 dex at 5th level, or taking a feat (warcaster, lucky, sentinel)

ASI Plan by 20th: +2 Dex; +2 Dex; Warcaster; Sentinel; Alert/Lucky/Mobile

Thanks for your time

[Citan]

She has a custom world setting, so I plan to basically play a feral tiefling religious magical assassin who sings the death song of her targets as she fights.
The concept is based from a combination of Szeth (Way of Kings), Nightcrawler (X-Men) and Silas (DaVinci code).

We start at level three and it has been ok'd to play a tiefling bladesinger.

I am thinking of ending up as 14AT/6BS eventually.
Also for ASI I am torn between starting with +2 dex at 5th level, or taking a feat (warcaster, lucky, sentinel)

ASI Plan by 20th: +2 Dex; +2 Dex; Warcaster; Sentinel; Alert/Lucky/Mobile

Thanks for your time
Hi!
Away from book for now but Bladesinger does get an Extra attack at lvl 6 right?
Then, well I'd say it depends on both your stats and playstyle.

But, if I guess you'll aim to max DEX and keep INT to around 16 no more (so disregard save or suck spells until lever levels and instead focus on utility), I'd suggest the following progression.
Rogue 1 > Wizard 2 > Rogue Trickster 5 > Wizard 4 > Rogue 9 > Wizard 6 > Rogue...
Why such a hashed progression?
Since you can go Bladesinger, it means you get access to related cantrips.
Taking Wizard just after your first level means you actually get access to cantrips and spells sooner than directly Rogue 3, with similar damage (1 SA die less, but extra fire damage) and you get to play with your concept already with more spellcasting and the great defense ability. It will help your survivability.
After that, going Rogue 5 for first ASI (DEX!!) and Uncanny Dodge which is a great defensive ability, and other 2nd level spells.
Now you should get pretty decent damage when you hit with your cantrip and good survivability.
Switching to Wizard allows you to greatly expand your lvl 2 spells and get another ASI, only one level "beyond" the normal pace.
After that more a matter of taste. :) I'd suggest going Rogue 9 first because it opens interesting play with save or suck spells if you're up to it. So when you up Wizard next you can actually choose to learn such spells. But both ways are good really.

I'm just not sure about why you would like to stop at Rogue 14 / Wizard 6. Extra Attack will be wasted because by the time you get it your cantrip will do more damage anyways.

I'd rather suggest either stopping Rogue at 13 and going Wizard 7, because you get access to several great lvl 4 spells and even more slots. Although you will have to think beforehand on how to use them, because you'll have slots of higher levels compared to your spell known.

Or, stop Wizard at 5 and go Rogue 15 to get the yummy Wisdom proficiency.

Both are very good so it's really a matter of how much you like to play with spells and are they lvl 4 spells that interest you.

As for feats... Well, you'll be mainly a Rogue, so I'd suggest upping DEX first. You don't want to miss after all. ;)
You can safely take Warcaster or Sentinel after that.

[AmbientRaven]

Some great advice :)

I start at third level, so AT will have access to cantrips and spells as well. Going 4 AT first gets me the +2dex asi, then i can swap to more wizard. GM has allowed an expanded spell list as well as a rogue, and i can take the SCAG cantrips as a rogue though

[Serket]

I'm currently playing AT 9/Wizard 1, and was planning on taking Bladesinger mostly for background reasons. The thing I've used the most over the campaign is the Lucky feat - it's perfect for stealth, because there are always moments when your skill check comes up a three or something. So honestly I think Divination might be a mechanically superior option.

When I first saw the extra attack I was very keen on Bladesinger. But I've done quite a bit of maths on it, and basically the biggest damage factor with this sort of build is getting advantage. If you get advantage you get your sneak, you usually hit, you can add your BB/GFB, and you nearly double your crit chance. Advantage is great. Going in for two attacks without advantage is definitely plan B, with an added :smallfrown:. So look for advantage, and get an Owl familiar.

I'd consider taking 1 Fighter for the con save. I mean, it's not strictly necessary, but the things that have really ****ed me up have been con saves. Whereas all the dex saves I've had have been "dex save for less damage". Less damage is nice and all, but not falling over helpless because poison is probably better. A sad loss on the skill front, though.

2 bladesinger 2 rogue is the core of the build - singing, cunning action, magic, expertise. Unfortunately puts you a long way from an ASI. Maybe rogue 1 wizard 1 rogue to 4 wizard to... 4 or 7 or something, more rogue? I agree that getting one level of wizard in for the flexibility of L1 spells is really handy. I recommend Find Familiar, Shield, and keeping Detect Magic as an actual prep rather than a ritual.

Honestly, planning the whole thing right now isn't as necessary as it would be in Pathfinder or 3.5. :smallsmile: From the ground looking up it will be more obvious what you need and what you like.

[Lolzyking]

nice build I think it will work out well, Whats the rest of the party playing?

my group just started a campaign(we are at lvl 4) , I'm playing a Vhuman arcane trickster (grabbed ritual caster) and at lvl 5 I'm dipping runescribe.

[Specter]

I would take 9 AT levels first for Magical Ambush, which really defines the class and make your save or suck spells a lot more dangerous. After that, 5 BS levels, then 3 more AT levels for ASI's, and the rest on BS.

But if you're planning to be a magical assassin, wouldn't it be better to take the... Assassin archetype? You would still get spells from Wizard, and have a solid nova ability. In that case, I would recommend Assassin 8/Bladesinger 12 (unless you think Infiltration Expertise is worth it, which I don't).

[AmbientRaven]

@Serket
I considered div wizard, and may still go into that. but I feel bladesinger suits the character better, which is why I'm going with bladesinger levels.

@lolzyking
Stormsorc/Tempest cleric, paladin/bard, undecided.
This is the current party makeup :)

@Spectre
I need to grab 2 singer early ish for rp reasons. it is just a matter of after that how I select each one. I am thinking of going 4/2 for sure

[Lolzyking]

Well it seems like you will be the resident stealth guy atleast. Is the paladin going Valorbard? if so he's probably gonna be using bard to buff his melee.


Though off topic I reccomend picking up find familiar, grab an owl, and using it to grant yourself advantage via its help action, and using it to deliver touch spells at range.
What would you advise for me to spend my asi at lvl 4 arcane trickster v human that has 10/16/10/16/14/10 I'm doing an indiana jones kinda build, I was thinking dungeon delver/observant/alert or linguist, since I play in a party with a paladin and a barb who both took protection/shield master.

[JeffreyGator]

I second wanting to always be playing something like your final build rather than changing up.

So rog 1 bladesinger 2 starting at 3. You have the blade song and SA.

You really seem to want the first ASI soonest so take BS to 5 for invis, ASI, second attack, and haste.

(if willing to wait on second attack take 3 rogue for ASI, spells, and cunning action)

follow this with mostly AT.

[Serket]

I'm not advising you to do Divination, because obviously that's not the concept. :smallsmile: I'm advising you to get Lucky, because that stops you muffing your important stealth rolls. :smallsmile:

For the sorts of things that rogues stereotypically do, unless you can get a skill bonus that renders the roll irrelevant*, rerolls are pretty much the best thing you can have.

*my DM made a serious mistake giving out some shoes with a constant Pass Without Trace effect. My stealth mod is +23 :smallredface: We should really arrange for me to lose them at some point.