Your build for an indestructible level 20

[WereRabbitz]

So the challenge is build a level 20 character who would be nearly impossible to kill via any means such as massive hp, regeneration, or unreachable AC.

Rules:
1. Anything from PHB is acceptable (any race, feat, class, ect...)
2. Don't include anything that requires complicated DM decision
3. Prepare to explain your answer if asked please!
4. Post how many rounds you think you can last of if you think you can win!


Scenario:
1. Your lone Character stands against a level 20 fighter(champion, THF) and level 20 Sorcerer(Wild).
2. The weather can be any condition you wish, if you want it to be something other then calm specify
3. You pick your favorite terrain
4. No magic items anything from the equipment list in the PHB


Good Luck!

Sorcerer Spell Line up

9th: Meteor Swarm

8th: Incendiary Cloud

7th: Finger of Death

6th: Disintegrate

5th: Hold Monster, Cone of Cold

4th: Dimension Door, Polymorph, Vitriolic Sphere

3rd: Counterspell, Fireball, Haste

[PoeticDwarf]

So the challenge is build a level 20 character who would be nearly impossible to kill via any means such as massive hp, regeneration, or unreachable AC.

Rules:
1. Anything from PHB is acceptable (any race, feat, class, ect...)
2. Don't include anything that requires complicated DM decision
3. Prepare to explain your answer if asked please!
4. Post how many rounds you think you can last of if you think you can win!


Scenario:
1. Your lone Character stands against a level 20 fighter(champion, THF) and level 20 Sorcerer(Wild).
2. The weather can be any condition you wish, if you want it to be something other then calm specify
3. You pick your favorite terrain
4. No magic items anything from the equipment list in the PHB


Good Luck!

So is it about beating those guys or surviving as long as possible ? If you kill them you won right
I'd go bard. Regeneration to keep all the time (when on 0hp you keep regening) you'd be beating them easily in the regen time. And you have all amazing spells bard can pick, steal etc.

[RulesJD]

Typical answers:

1. Level 20 Moon druid. Pretty easy answer, they won't be able to do enough damage to burst through. Could just cast a spell and then earth glide underground.

2. Level 20 Abjuration Wizard. Wizard spells > Sorc spells. Simulacrum + Feeblemind + Wall of Force = Fights over in the first round.

[Giant2005]

1. Level 20 Moon druid. Pretty easy answer, they won't be able to do enough damage to burst through. Could just cast a spell and then earth glide underground.

They could burst through a Moon Druid in a single round.
Although I have nothing better to offer. It is pretty hard to come up with much of any defense against that duo, mostly due to the Sorcerer being able to dispel or counterspell any magic you attempt to use. Anything non-magic the Sorcerer can pretty much ignore.

[RulesJD]

They could burst through a Moon Druid in a single round.

4. No magic items anything from the equipment list in the PHB

Earth Elemental - 126 HP with resistance to non-magical BPS. Fighter wont have a magical weapon, so effectively 252hp against Fighter attacks. Druid in human form with max con will have 203hp.

AC with half-plate + shield for moon druid = 19. Magic Initiate for Shield = first round AC of 24.

So effective HP of 455 (less so for the Wild Magic Sorc but Sorc DPR kind of sucks anyways) with an AC of 24.

Any time after the first round, Druid will be Wild Shaped into the ground with Earthglide, aka Fighter can't do jack but prep 1 Readied attack. Sorc is a wild card (pun intended) but really can't bring the thunder to a sufficient level to burn through the druid form. Maybe they get a good WM Surge.

Best case scenario for Fighter:
9 Attacks for GWM Fighter with max str:
+6 to hit (if swinging with GWM); no real way to generate advantage but lets just assume
2d6 (avg 8.33 with GWF) + 10 (GWM) + 5 (Str) = 23.33 per hit x 9 hits = ~210 damage. That's if literally everything hits with GWM against AC 24 (not gonna even remotely happen). You can throw some crits in there but they would easily be countered by the complete misses that would happen.

Presuming you can't burn that down the first round, Druid just Earthglides away, finds a nice spot to cast Regenerate, and then is literally unkillable for 1 hour as they beat the hell out of the Sorc first then the Fighter.

[Giant2005]

4. No magic items anything from the equipment list in the PHB

Earth Elemental - 126 HP with resistance to non-magical BPS. Fighter wont have a magical weapon, so effectively 252hp against Fighter attacks. Druid in human form with max con will have 203hp.

AC with half-plate + shield for moon druid = 19. Magic Initiate for Shield = first round AC of 24.

So effective HP of 455 (less so for the Wild Magic Sorc but Sorc DPR kind of sucks anyways) with an AC of 24.

Any time after the first round, Druid will be Wild Shaped into the ground with Earthglide, aka Fighter can't do jack but prep 1 Readied attack. Sorc is a wild card (pun intended) but really can't bring the thunder to a sufficient level to burn through the druid form. Maybe they get a good WM Surge.

Best case scenario for Fighter:
9 Attacks for GWM Fighter with max str:
+6 to hit (if swinging with GWM); no real way to generate advantage but lets just assume
2d6 (avg 8.33 with GWF) + 10 (GWM) + 5 (Str) = 23.33 per hit x 9 hits = ~210 damage. That's if literally everything hits with GWM against AC 24 (not gonna even remotely happen). You can throw some crits in there but they would easily be countered by the complete misses that would happen.

Presuming you can't burn that down the first round, Druid just Earthglides away, finds a nice spot to cast Regenerate, and then is literally unkillable for 1 hour as they beat the hell out of the Sorc first then the Fighter.

You obviously forgot about the existence of the Sorcerer. A single Quickened Meteor Storm will take out the Elemental and inflict 14 more damage to the Druid. He can then launch a cantrip for more damage. The Fighter should be able to action surge away the rest easily enough considering the Druid's crappy AC (Druids can't wear Brestplates due to the issue of metal - the best they can hope for is Leather or Hide depending on their Dexmod).

[RulesJD]

You obviously forgot about the existence of the Sorcerer. A single Quickened Meteor Storm will take out the Elemental and inflict 14 more damage to the Druid. He can then launch a cantrip for more damage. The Fighter should be able to action surge away the rest easily enough considering the Druid's crappy AC (Druids can't wear Brestplates due to the issue of metal - the best they can hope for is Leather or Hide depending on their Dexmod).

Actually, per recent discussion, in 5e Druids can wear metal armor. So they can rock Half-plate + Shield.

More importantly, sure the Sorc can pull that off, and in all likelihood blast the Fighter as well. Champion Fighters have no movement speed increase, so it would have to start at least 30ft away from the Druid, which means inside the radius of the Meteor Swarm. Not a deal breaker, but there you go.

You raise a good point though and something a level 20 Druid should be aware of. Be in Fire Elemental form, not Earth. That drops your meteor swarm damage down to ~70, not remotely enough to kill the Druid in Fire form. Fire form still has BPS damage resistance. Sorc could cast maybe a ray of frost or something to add ~22 cold damage, still not enough to fully knock the Druid out of Fire form. Fighter (after eating the Meteor Swarm damage without resistance), then burns the Druid down a bit, but as we've shown, it can't get the Druid down completely, especially with Shield up.

On it's turn, same as before. Regenerate + Earth elemental form + Earthglide = game over.


Oh, and let's just remember, this is the WORST case scenario for the Druid. All 9 GWM swings hit, it loses to both Fighter and Sorc on Initiative, etc. The one thing I'm giving the Druid is starting in Fire Form but that's not exactly an issue because level 20 druid has that an infinite amount of times.

[Giant2005]

Actually, per recent discussion, in 5e Druids can wear metal armor. So they can rock Half-plate + Shield.

I don't know what discussions you are referring to, but it doesn't really matter. 5e doesn't leave much wiggle room for interpretation on that one - it states it pretty clearly right in their proficiency section "druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal".
As for everything else, the Sorcerer has other high level damage spells to use that don't inflict fire damage. Although it doesn't really matter anyway - if it comes down to it, the Fighter can just use an action surge to burn the Elemental form down (with the sorc using a cantrip to help if necessary) and then have the Druid use Hold Person (Or Monster if the Elemental form managed to hold up through the initial barrage) on them directly after. Next round they just burn the Druid down with another action surge and another quicken + cantrip combo; all of which are crits.

[p_johnston]

Also Moon druids are highly susceptible to Power word kill. Fighter Hits whatever form the Druid takes down to under 100 hp, Sorcerer casts power word kill, no more druid.

[Giant2005]

What about Wizard (Abjuration) 19, Barbarian 1?
Be a Variant Human, with Shield Master, Resilient (Dex), 20 Con and 20 Dex.
Cast Greater Invisibility so the Fighter has disadvantage on attacks and most of the Sorcerer's spells can't target you.
With 22 AC, and Disadvantage from Invisibility, the Fighter should struggle to hit you. The Sorc can still unleash aoe spells to take you down but Shield Master, advantage on spell saves, and resistance to spell damage should mitigate a lot of that.
You can also use Counterspell and Shield as necessary (depending on which enemy looks like they are going to be more effective that round).
Hopefully that is enough to help you survive a minute, because after that minute you will be nestled safely in a Leomund's Tiny hut, which you will recast every 8 hours as necessary.

The character will have 188 hit points and an Arcane Ward worth 40. The fighter will inflict 196.96 damage over 10 rounds himself (assuming all reactions are devoted to counterspell rather than shield) but casting counterspell 10 times with his highest slots will recharge the ward with 142 points, reducing the fighter's damage down to 54.96.
After accounting for the Fighter's damage the Arcane Ward is completely wiped out and the Wizard has 173.04 hp remaining.
Now I have no real clue what the Sorcerer would be doing to mess things up, but considering most of his main spells would be Counterspelled, leaving most of the damage coming from cantrips, I don't think he could burn down the Wizard in time. Especially considering all of the advantages the Wizard has against magic (resistance, advantage to saves, incoming attack rolls have disadvantage, Shield Master, can't be targeted by anything that requires sight).

[wunderkid]

I'd say initiative is basically the deciding factor.

So bard 2 to add Jack of all trades to your initiative and the alert feat seem like necessities. I'd likely look at going rogue 3, fighter 11 at least. Drop the sorcerer in a turn with surprise + advantage + action surge + auto crits. Then hide again. I doubt the fighter will be able to spot you. So you can comfortably handle a fighter from there on your own terms.

[WereRabbitz]

Also Moon druids are highly susceptible to Power word kill. Fighter Hits whatever form the Druid takes down to under 100 hp, Sorcerer casts power word kill, no more druid.

hmm good answers..

I was thinking Level 14 Paladin Ancients/ 4 Bard Lore / 2 Fighter

My Thinking was with SnB + SoF + Plate + shield + defensive you can easily hit 23ac to help give the fighter a hard time landing hits (unless he starts using his maneuvers up which won't last.)
Fighting Style: Duel, Defensive
Feats: Mage Slayer, +str, +Cha, Grappler
Expertise: Athletics, Perception

Round 1: Misty Step to the Sorcerer and Grapple him with str + Feat + Expert Athletics

Round 2a: Use Bardic Inspirations to help Counter the fighter while you fight him with your long sword Grappling the sorcerer in the other hand.
Round 2b: When the sorcerer tries to cast a spell you stab them.

Round 3a: Finish off fighter and address wizard using misty step to stay beside him imposing disadvantage on him.
Round 3b: If fighter gets cute and goes range, stab the Sorcerer while grappled each turn.

Emergency Plan: Lay of Hands +70hp, Second Wind, Action Surge, Bardic Inspirations.


Grapple Chance: 1d20 + Athletics + Proficiency x 2 (Expertise) + Advantage (Feat) + Bardic inspiration if necessary to keep Sorc Contained.


I liked a bunch of your ideas this had been my original one which i see has some holes in it, but i wanted to post it anyway.

[Giant2005]

Does using a Warlock Invocation that emulates casting a spell count as casting a spell?

[RickAllison]

So here is a pertinent question. We know exactly what kind of opponents the prospective PC is facing, but do they know what powers the PC has? Because while it makes perfect sense for the sorcerer to pack PWK for a druid, would he have chosen that spell if the enemy was not a moon druid?

[WereRabbitz]

So here is a pertinent question. We know exactly what kind of opponents the prospective PC is facing, but do they know what powers the PC has? Because while it makes perfect sense for the sorcerer to pack PWK for a druid, would he have chosen that spell if the enemy was not a moon druid?

I would it's safe to say they know they will be fighting, but not who or what.

[RickAllison]

I would it's safe to say they know they will be fighting, but not who or what.

So I think this leaves an important task for the OP. It is necessary that the Sorcerer spell-list, feats, etc. all be locked in before further discussion. We don't need to know what those spells are, but there should be some objective standard. Sorcerers get something like 15 spells total, it skews the results if those are altered to specifically counteract prospective PCs. Same for feats, etc. We don't need to know, it just needs to be known that there is an objective standard.

[WereRabbitz]

So I think this leaves an important task for the OP. It is necessary that the Sorcerer spell-list, feats, etc. all be locked in before further discussion. We don't need to know what those spells are, but there should be some objective standard. Sorcerers get something like 15 spells total, it skews the results if those are altered to specifically counteract prospective PCs. Same for feats, etc. We don't need to know, it just needs to be known that there is an objective standard.

Added! to the OP the spell list (roughly)

[RulesJD]

I don't know what discussions you are referring to, but it doesn't really matter. 5e doesn't leave much wiggle room for interpretation on that one - it states it pretty clearly right in their proficiency section "druids will not wear armor or use shields made of metal".
As for everything else, the Sorcerer has other high level damage spells to use that don't inflict fire damage. Although it doesn't really matter anyway - if it comes down to it, the Fighter can just use an action surge to burn the Elemental form down (with the sorc using a cantrip to help if necessary) and then have the Druid use Hold Person (Or Monster if the Elemental form managed to hold up through the initial barrage) on them directly after. Next round they just burn the Druid down with another action surge and another quicken + cantrip combo; all of which are crits.

No, it can't. We've already established this fact that the fighter cannot output enough damage WITHOUT A MAGICAL WEAPON against the elemental forms. That's the lovely BPS resistance for you, turning the Fire Elemental into effectively 204hp damage required by the Fighter. The Champion Fighter at PEAK efficiency (assuming 9 hits NOTat advantage all hit AC 24 with only +6 to hit) can crack ~210hp swinging with GWM on every hit.

And apparently now the fighters know that some sort of fight will be coming which means...the Druid casts Foresight. Congrats, your Champion Fighter is now at disadvantage (you'd be better off making it a Battelmaster Fighter FYI) so forget getting anywhere near the DPR required to burn down a Druid in either form.

The Sorc is your only saving grace. You have to have the exact right spell prepared (PWK), which lets be honest there is 0 chance ANY sorc casts that over casting Wish for some Simulacrum shenanigans.

With Foresight up, the Druid will have advantage on those saves without the Sorc doing Heightened Metamagic, so at worse the Druids rolling against your Hold Person/Monster WISDOM save with a +11 against DC 19. Better than average your Sorc doesn't do anything.

Also with Foresight up, the Druid rolls Initiative rolls at advantage, so what happens when your Sorc goes after the Druid in Initiative order?

All your assumptions are that literally everything goes against the player, which, fine. But even then, you simply can't do enough damage in 1 round, or you have to rely on a ridiculously unlikely scenario of a Sorc have PWK ready to go.

The OP would be much better off using a BM Fighter (more likely to actually get more GWM strikes) or honestly a level 20 Paladin would be significantly harder to fight with its much higher saves, spells, magical weapon access, flight access, etc.

[Giant2005]

An Abjurer 19, Barbarian 1 could cast Foresight and then use his action casting Blade Ward, bonus action Misty Step (For the 4 points to Arcane Ward - Misty Step is the level 2 Spell Mastery Spell) and Reaction Counterspelling the Sorc (with more points for the Arcane Ward).
Once he has run out of Spell Slots, he just uses Blade Ward, Shield, and Misty Step each round for resistance to physical damage and +6 to his Arcane Ward each round. With an effective AC of 27 and resistance to physical, the Fighter will inflict an average of 2.24 damage per round which isn't enough to counter the +6 to the Arcane Ward each round.
The Sorc will need to bring 3.76 DPR to surpass the Arcane Ward's net gain. The Abjurer has +11 to save with Advantage, AC 27, and Resistance to damaging spells. Considering all of the Sorc's high level slots would have been counterspelled, and Cantrips do more damage than low level spells, the Sorc's options are Firebolt or Poison Spray. Firebolt would only bring in 0.72 DPR which isn't enough to reach the required 2.24. Poison Spray would bring in 1.5925 DPR which still isn't enough to meet the target.

[Southpaw]

How about a Fighter 2, Div Wizard 18. Max Int, Dex, and take alert.

Portent should get you one low, one mid, and one high role.

Turn 1. Using your highest role for initiative + 10 for dex gives you better than average odds of going first. Cast a hard CC of your choice on the Sorc, use Counter spell to counter their counter spell if they try to block your first spell. Use your lowest Portent roll to make sure it sticks. This should eliminate the sorc for at least now.

Action surge. Cast Force Cage on the Fighter. This should eliminate the fighter for at least now.


Turn 2. You now have time to decide how to kill the fighter from range before dealing with the polymorphed/banished/what ever you decided Sorc. You should have shield, mirror image, heavy armor, and a shield to help mitigate any range damage from the fighter because I assume you would need to leave gaps in the force cage to attack through to kill him, so the fighter could use a bow on you just the same.

Turn X. Now it is just a standard mage duel between you and the Sorc. Hopefully your hard CC of choice either allows you to get the jump on them or at least gives you time to get your defense ready for the fight. You still have a Portent roll available if an possibly average roll can help you.

[RulesJD]

An Abjurer 19, Barbarian 1 could cast Foresight and then use his action casting Blade Ward, bonus action Misty Step (For the 4 points to Arcane Ward - Misty Step is the level 2 Spell Mastery Spell) and Reaction Counterspelling the Sorc (with more points for the Arcane Ward).
Once he has run out of Spell Slots, he just uses Blade Ward, Shield, and Misty Step each round for resistance to physical damage and +6 to his Arcane Ward each round. With an effective AC of 27 and resistance to physical, the Fighter will inflict an average of 2.24 damage per round which isn't enough to counter the +6 to the Arcane Ward each round.
The Sorc will need to bring 3.76 DPR to surpass the Arcane Ward's net gain. The Abjurer has +11 to save with Advantage, AC 27, and Resistance to damaging spells. Considering all of the Sorc's high level slots would have been counterspelled, and Cantrips do more damage than low level spells, the Sorc's options are Firebolt or Poison Spray. Firebolt would only bring in 0.72 DPR which isn't enough to reach the required 2.24. Poison Spray would bring in 1.5925 DPR which still isn't enough to meet the target.

Just a reminder that depending on whose turn it is, the other caster would just Counterspell the Counterspell.

Unless you happen to be a Wizard with Contingency (if I am being counterspelled) -> Greater Invisibility/Globe of Invulnerability.

[RulesJD]

How about a Fighter 2, Div Wizard 18. Max Int, Dex, and take alert.

Portent should get you one low, one mid, and one high role.

Turn 1. Using your highest role for initiative + 10 for dex gives you better than average odds of going first. Cast a hard CC of your choice on the Sorc, use Counter spell to counter their counter spell if they try to block your first spell. Use your lowest Portent roll to make sure it sticks. This should eliminate the sorc for at least now.

Action surge. Cast Force Cage on the Fighter. This should eliminate the fighter for at least now.


Turn 2. You now have time to decide how to kill the fighter from range before dealing with the polymorphed/banished/what ever you decided Sorc. You should have shield, mirror image, heavy armor, and a shield to help mitigate any range damage from the fighter because I assume you would need to leave gaps in the force cage to attack through to kill him, so the fighter could use a bow on you just the same.

Turn X. Now it is just a standard mage duel between you and the Sorc. Hopefully your hard CC of choice either allows you to get the jump on them or at least gives you time to get your defense ready for the fight. You still have a Portent roll available if an possibly average roll can help you.

I think this is probably going to be the best bet in terms of reacting to a diversity of threats while ensuring a victory given the Portent Die ability.

[druid91]

Level 20 Revenant Sorcerer. Spend all you ASI's on Alert for a total of +25 to Initiative, since there's nothing stopping you from taking a feat more than once, it's just not generally useful. With a dex of 16 giving +3 to Initiative, and a proficiency bonus of +6. That's a total of +34 to initiative before getting into die-rolls.

Then you take a stone. And you cast True Polymorph on it, to turn it into an ocean of lava. You all burn and die, upon your death, you stop concentrating on the spell, and the ocean of lava becomes a stone once more.

In 24 hours, you reform unharmed. They do not.

[GlenSmash!]

From the 5e SRD: You can take each feat only once, unless the feat’s description says otherwise.

[pwykersotz]

Does using a Warlock Invocation that emulates casting a spell count as casting a spell?

I believe it does, though all I can remember that is certain at the moment is the Psionic rules which state that any power that emulates a spell can be affected by other effects which work on spells.

[druid91]

From the 5e SRD: You can take each feat only once, unless the feat’s description says otherwise.

I'm gonna go with what's written in the book rather than the online resource.

[pwykersotz]

I'm gonna go with what's written in the book rather than the online resource.

PHB 165 under Feats, second paragraph, last sentence.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm gonna go with what's written in the book rather than the online resource.

It's the exact same text as the PHB but quoting it won't put me in violation of copyrights (and it's much easier to copy and paste).

[RickAllison]

I'm gonna go with what's written in the book rather than the online resource.

As pwykersotz noted, it is in the books. Also, do remember that the SRD is more likely to be correct than your book, as the SRD is updated with errata when needed (as it is the legally-pertinent portion of the system) while PHB errata only occurs when there is a significant collection of errors to correct at once.

Also, since the change was not in the PHB errata document, it seems that this tidbit has been in all editions. So it should be in your book as well.

EDIT: GlenSmash!, I don't believe it is a violation of copyright to include the PHB text on these forums. Going from US Code, section 107 (Fair Use):


Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole;
and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In order: (1) The purpose of this is non-commercial, (2) the work is creative and thus subject to strong copyright protection, (3) the amount is minuscule compared to the work as a whole, (4) it has no effect on the value of the copyrighted work. While it is more correct to use the SRD, there is nothing illegal about quoting the PHB.

[Lolzyking]

If scag were available I'd just use a monk of the long death.


However for a phb only build


Woodelf open hand monk 17/ wizard 3 any (probably divine)

level 11 feature tranquility, until I attack my enemies must make a wisdom save of dc 19 to attack me.
monks also have evasion so meteor does half or no damage.

I'd take Sentinel, and mage slayer, rest of Asi's go to getting 20dex and wisdom

We go three wizard for Mirror image, if I roll and they target one of the images I can proc a sentinel attack.

The goal is now to punch the sorcerer or fighter once.

If divine portents are high I spend one to make it hit if its low I save it

Once I've hit a target I activate quivering palm for 3 ki.

On my next Available action I activate the vibrations, they must make a DC 19 con save and take 10d10 necrotic, or they die

if divine portents are low.....they die.

Repeat punch on survivor, activate vibrations.

[GlenSmash!]

EDIT: GlenSmash!, I don't believe it is a violation of copyright to include the PHB text on these forums. Going from US Code, section 107 (Fair Use):

Thanks! Legal stuff makes my head spin, so I avoid it.

[wunderkid]

Bard 3, assassin3, fighter 12, paladin 2.
Half orc

Assassin gives you advantage and auto-crits and some extra expertise. Fighter EK for 3 attacks, action surge and spell slots, paladin for smites.Bard gives you cutting words, Jack of all trades, more spell slots.

Take alert. Initiative is now +13 before rolling. Very good odds of going first.

If I had the right score I'd take one into wizard for portant but not at the expense of dex 20. But dropping a level of bard for it would be worthwhile.

So you're a 8th level caster
2 4th slots then 3 3 and 4 slots scaling down.

Damage wise you're looking at:
Not sure what the sorcerers AC will be but I can't imagine much past 15. No magic items so mage armour + dex is their best bet off the top of my head and if their dex is much past 14 I'd also be surprised.

Your to hit will be 6+5 so 11 (can't think off the top of my head what else you might tag on without prebuffing). You need a 4+ with advantage to hit. You're hitting with everything basically. Even if he prebuffs with that advantage/disadvantage 9th level spell you still will hit with 75% of your stick.

Weapon -
Let's say you go with a d6 weapon.
That's 3d6 damage per hit + dex (hopefully +5 at this point). Average of 15/16 per hit. 6 attacks (3 attacks, action surge). 84-90 damage. Likely most of the sorcs hp before I start tagging on the fun stuff.

Smites add on 5d8 for a 4th level slot. Which is 10d8 thanks to the crit. 20d8 total by using those two slots on 2 of your attacks. So 100-120 damage on average.

Running at a total so far of 184-210 damage and still 4 smites to go.

So 3 now at 4d8 - 8d8 thanks to critys. 24d8 total. 96-120 damage. And still 2 smites to go.

Running total 280-330. By this point I'd be amazed if the sorcerer was alive.

But you have one more smite for 3d8 - 6d8 (and 24-30 damage) and 2d6 sneak attack damage just as a little icing on the cake.

Putting you to a comfortable 304-360 damage. Even if you're doing 75% damage because they have that uber 9th spell to mitigate your advantage you're still comfortably killing that mage.

Following this you cunning action. Hide. At +17 before rolling. And then deal with the fighter at your leisure because I very much doubt the fighter will have any chance of spotting you.

Now if you can buff precombat then you simply wait 1-10 minutes for their buffs to wear off. (all bar the 8 hour ones).

But as you'll have surprise that means no reactions, and if things do go poorly cunning action, hide,get out of dodge. You're unkillable by virtue of not being directly targetable.

[Giant2005]

I believe it does, though all I can remember that is certain at the moment is the Psionic rules which state that any power that emulates a spell can be affected by other effects which work on spells.

The reason I was asking was because I wante to be able to use one of those Warlock Invocations (which casts a spell) and cast a spell which uses a bonus action, both within the same turn.

[Giant2005]

Everyone keeps trying to kill the Fighter and Sorcerer. Am I the only one that finds it obvious that this is supposed to be a contest of defense, not offense?

[Jamesps]

Race: Halfling (Stout)
Class: Barbarian 1, Rogue 2, Wizard (Abjurer) 17
Stats: Str 13, Dex 20, Con 20, Cha 8, Int 13, Wis 9
Equipment: Shield. Lotsa darts.
Terrain: Nasty and murky. Probably forested with trees closely packed together.

Round 1: If you win initiative, cast antimagic-aura. Sorcerer can't touch you for an hour.
If you lose initiative counterspell sorcerer and pray. Fighter will beat on you a bit, but your AC is 22 and you've got your Ward which is good this round only. Once your turn comes around, antimagic aura and vamoose out of range of the fighter.

Round 2: Fighter should start hucking rocks at you. Take cover, take dodge action (unless you can get a free shot somehow), hide if you can. You should be pretty much unhittable unless he's packing unlimited strength throwing weapons somehow. (make sure to steal them after he throws them at you so he doesn't keep hucking the same one at you). Keep manuevering around with cunning action out of his reach. You'll need to get far enough away that you can hide eventually or statistics will bring you down.

End hour 1: Cast antimagic aura with your 9th level slot

End hour 2: Hope they went home.

Total rounds alive: 2 hours worth (1200) plus some change.

[Firechanter]

Everyone keeps trying to kill the Fighter and Sorcerer. Am I the only one that finds it obvious that this is supposed to be a contest of defense, not offense?

A strong offense is often the best defense. Of course you could somehow survive for a while by removing yourself from the fight. But you'll survive much longer if you remove your enemies.

Anyway, "level 20 with no magic items" is an incredibly silly constraint. It makes the entire exercise purely academic. That's okay if you do it just to kill time, but for me the point would be to improve my gaming skillz in actual play.
This exercise will teach you NOTHING about actual play and may actually be misleading.

[Rookwood]

Hill Dwarf Barbarian w/ bear totem/ Champion Fighter 17 and toughness feat?

Good HP, resistance to all but psychic when raging, regen when under 1/2 hp. Alternatively go for straight barbarian for better hp but miss out on regen.

[Firechanter]

While I still stand by my previous point, I currently _do_ have a bit of time to kill so here are some suggestions:

A)
Pick a large, dense forest as terrain.

Make any stealthy character. Ranger, Rogue, Bard, whatever.
Hide.
Change position every round so they can't pinpoint you. The area is also too big for the Sorc to reliably blast you with AoEs.
No need to even attack. They just can never find you, so they can't kill you. You can keep hiding indefinitely. You win.

B)
On a more offensive note, try Ancients Paladin.
Any damage the Sorcerer slings at you will be halved.
You can take the Fighter out of the fight by hitting him with Wrathful Smite. Thanks to your Elder Champion ability, he has disadvantage on the Wis Save and _will_ blow it (even if he as Resilience, but especially if not). Now he's fearlocked -- he can't approach you and any attacks have Disad, so won't hit reliably. Use this time to smite the Sorcerer to smithereens.
Once the Sorcerer has fallen, turn to the Fighter. Shouldn't be a problem now. You can always just fearlock him again.

[Asmotherion]

Warlock 2 for repealing eldritch blasts to keep the fighter at bay
Barbarian 1 for unarmored deffence
Sorcerer (dragon for more AC) 17 to Quicken or twin, and have access to lv9 spells

then, there are so many options:

Option 1: Counterspell the sorcerer wile keeping the fighter at bay with repealing blast, and then Twin Dominate Monster/Person. Wisdom is a dump stat to both the Fighter and Sorcerer, neither has proficiency in it, and they'll probably fail the save, effectivelly causing them to become my puppets, and I'll turn one against the other, effectivelly forcing them to kill each other... for example I could stage it so that the fighter would go running on the sorcerer, then the sorcerer casts meteor swarm (away from me) after he gets a lot of dammage. Finally, I end it with a nice little eldrich blast (actually 8 of them in a turn).

Option 2: Use wish to copy feeblemind, twin it on them both (they don't have prof in intelligence, and it's also a dump stat), effectivelly making them less intelligent than baboons. The sorcerer can no longer cast, wile, depending on the DM the fighter can no longer use weapons (I would rule it this way). Then, dominate person on the fighter to kill the Sorcerer and eldrich blast the fighter to death.

I can think of many more options, but I neither have the time or lack of boredom to analyse them.



PS: if we get feats, War Caster, Polearm Master (if the abuse is allowed; otherwise spell sniper), Sentinel, Alert.

Stat priority:
Cha
Con
Dex
Int
Wis
Str

[Hrugner]

I guess my terrain choice would be aquatic, coral maze, really low visibility. I'd chose a trickery cleric for an anti-magic field that wasn't stuck to me, blow two levels on rogue.

I don't know, I think I'd be able to get them to blow through their resources and leave me alone before I had to do anything too tricky. And should be able to out pace the warrior even when he targets the right person, which lets face it, he dumped int and isn't proficient in investigation so that won't be happening.

[Hrugner]

Shoot, I can't concentrate on anti-magic and the illusions at the same time. You should be able to cast from the illusions while ethereal though.

[EvilestWeevil]

This is very easy to crack. I would go 20th level Sorcerer that can cast Shapechange. Then proceed to become a dragon (specifically one that is immune to fire) and wreck that sorcerer first. Then eat the champion. You know... for funzies.

[RickAllison]

This is very easy to crack. I would go 20th level Sorcerer that can cast Shapechange. Then proceed to become a dragon (specifically one that is immune to fire) and wreck that sorcerer first. Then eat the champion. You know... for funzies.

Why not a Rakshasa? Immunity to all spells of 6th level or below (so the Sorc has a grand total of 4 spells, I think?), and I think he had either resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapon damage.

[EvilestWeevil]

Why not a Rakshasa? Immunity to all spells of 6th level or below (so the Sorc has a grand total of 4 spells, I think?), and I think he had either resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapon damage.

Um... because dragons are awesome. I dispel your logic and substitute my own.

[RickAllison]

Um... because dragons are awesome. I dispel your logic and substitute my own.

That sounds like a logical and cohesive argument.

I would prefer a Shadow Dragon. Fly away, raise some Shadows by killing some innocent villagers, then come back with instant army.

[EvilestWeevil]

Logic has no place in game of dungeons and/or dragons.

[RulesJD]

This is very easy to crack. I would go 20th level Sorcerer that can cast Shapechange. Then proceed to become a dragon (specifically one that is immune to fire) and wreck that sorcerer first. Then eat the champion. You know... for funzies.

Sorcerer casts Dispel Magic and uses Tides of Chaos + Bend Luck to ensure it dispels your Shapechange.

Now what?

[RickAllison]

Sorcerer casts Dispel Magic and uses Tides of Chaos + Bend Luck to ensure it dispels your Shapechange.

Now what?

I prefer to use the Shapechange idea as a Wizard, so this is coming from that idea.

1) The Sorc doesn't have Dispel Magic. Thus, he can't Dispel Shapechange
2) He does have Counterspell, but so does the PC.
3) Bend Luck works on another creature, not the Sorc him/herself.

[RulesJD]

I prefer to use the Shapechange idea as a Wizard, so this is coming from that idea.

1) The Sorc doesn't have Dispel Magic. Thus, he can't Dispel Shapechange
2) He does have Counterspell, but so does the PC.
3) Bend Luck works on another creature, not the Sorc him/herself.

Fair point on the Bend Luck, but disagree on not having Dispel. Any spell caster worth a crap knowing they're going into a fight will definitely have that prepared. DC 19 with a +5 modifier and advantage shouldn't be a tough target to hit.

Also, what Metamagics does the Sorc enemy have? Because Counterspell + subtle spell = probably not able to counterspell the Sorc's counterspell (granted that's a grey area).

But if you're going to be a Wizard you're just going to win period. Contingency alone will nullify most things + Simulacrum + et al.

[RickAllison]

Fair point on the Bend Luck, but disagree on not having Dispel. Any spell caster worth a crap knowing they're going into a fight will definitely have that prepared. DC 19 with a +5 modifier and advantage shouldn't be a tough target to hit.

Also, what Metamagics does the Sorc enemy have? Because Counterspell + subtle spell = probably not able to counterspell the Sorc's counterspell (granted that's a grey area).

But if you're going to be a Wizard you're just going to win period. Contingency alone will nullify most things + Simulacrum + et al.

The Sorc's spell-list is on the front page and Dispel Magic is not up there as of now. The Metamagic is a good point, the OP needs to add that. Also, remember that Sorcs don't prepare spells. Since this is level 20, the selection of 15 spells is what the Sorcerer wants to be able to use for the rest of his life, he has no other options with spells and can't switch his out ever again.

[Vogonjeltz]

So is it about beating those guys or surviving as long as possible ? If you kill them you won right
I'd go bard. Regeneration to keep all the time (when on 0hp you keep regening) you'd be beating them easily in the regen time. And you have all amazing spells bard can pick, steal etc.

If they can get you to 0 (which seems very likely with only Bard defenses), the Champion could just auto-attack for two crits killing you while you're down.

Regeneration is nice, but it won't outpace regular attacking from a multiple attack creature.


1. Level 20 Moon druid. Pretty easy answer, they won't be able to do enough damage to burst through. Could just cast a spell and then earth glide underground.

2. Level 20 Abjuration Wizard. Wizard spells > Sorc spells. Simulacrum + Feeblemind + Wall of Force = Fights over in the first round.

The Sorcerer has counterspell. So the Druid may as well not have spellcasting. With Hold Monster it's only a matter of time before the Druid gets paralyzed and then beat down by the Champion.

The Abjurer is good at stopping spellcasting (well, the first one...which might just be a cantrip since the Sorcerer could almost certainly quicken a normal spell), but they're as susceptible as anyone else to counterspell. Also, how do we ensure the Abjurer and their Simulacrum get to go first? Even if they go first, why couldn't the Sorcerer disintegrate it having counterspelled the feeblemind?


Actually, per recent discussion, in 5e Druids can wear metal armor. So they can rock Half-plate + Shield.

Correction, they won't wear it per recent discussion. Also, per recent rulings (albeit joke rulings) they would explode if they tried.

And wearing non-proficient armor prevents them from spellcasting which runs counter to your previously stated intentions.

Anyway, if I were running the Champion I'd use his extra ASI to pick up Alert (so he regularly wins initiative), first set of actions is to charge the opponent, substitute their first melee attack as a grapple (until target is grappled, if necessary go into action surge) then trip them, then substitute attacks for contests to strip them of equipment (such as spell focuses restricting them from material components), a contest to cover their mouth (restricting them from using verbal components), and then a contest to restrain both their hands behind their back (restricting their hands to prevent somatic components).

Now that the enemy could no longer use any spell components, as the Champion I'd make unarmed strike attacks by slamming their face into the ground; Similar to the Mountain and the Red Viper. Wizard probably dies without any action by the Sorcerer within 3 rounds assuming the Fighter action surges (with max str the minimum damage would exceed the Wizard's maximized HP after 3 rounds + 2 action surges).

Now, granted, this is almost all contests, so exact details (i.e. presumably Athletics vs Acrobatics or even just a raw Dexterity check) would be necessary to hammer out with the DM, but it's by the book.

[JeffreyGator]

I too like the option of killing the sorc and then defeating the champion rather than staying alive the longest.

I will use my character from this thread 5 round damager with flying snakes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20670630&postcount=22)

lore bard 6 gold dragon sorcerer 12 warlock 2 (alternately lore bard 8 gold dragon sorc 8 ftr 2 warlock 2)
half-elf (half wood elf if I can use SCAG)
dex 16 cha 16 con 14 wis 12 int 10 str 8
ASI = +2 cha, +2cha, alertness, mobile
invocations = devil sight, agonizing blast

With +11 init and cutting words I should go first

My environment is rough ground in magical darkness in a dark cave in the underdark.

round 1 agonizing blast and the swarm of snakes are going to deal 250 damage to the sorcerer. If the sorc goes before the snakes he may kill some or many of them which would be very sad.

following rounds I am still far away in the dark and moving a bunch, if the sorc lived through my snakes, the fighter needs to go into a force cage, otherwise I have lots of spells from range against him and he still has to deal with the annoying snakes (granted he will kill 5/round but there are 32 of them)

[RulesJD]

*snip*



The Sorcerer has counterspell. So the Druid may as well not have spellcasting. With Hold Monster it's only a matter of time before the Druid gets paralyzed and then beat down by the Champion.

The Abjurer is good at stopping spellcasting (well, the first one...which might just be a cantrip since the Sorcerer could almost certainly quicken a normal spell), but they're as susceptible as anyone else to counterspell. Also, how do we ensure the Abjurer and their Simulacrum get to go first? Even if they go first, why couldn't the Sorcerer disintegrate it having counterspelled the feeblemind?



Correction, they won't wear it per recent discussion. Also, per recent rulings (albeit joke rulings) they would explode if they tried.

And wearing non-proficient armor prevents them from spellcasting which runs counter to your previously stated intentions.

Anyway, if I were running the Champion I'd use his extra ASI to pick up Alert (so he regularly wins initiative), first set of actions is to charge the opponent, substitute their first melee attack as a grapple (until target is grappled, if necessary go into action surge) then trip them, then substitute attacks for contests to strip them of equipment (such as spell focuses restricting them from material components), a contest to cover their mouth (restricting them from using verbal components), and then a contest to restrain both their hands behind their back (restricting their hands to prevent somatic components).

Now that the enemy could no longer use any spell components, as the Champion I'd make unarmed strike attacks by slamming their face into the ground; Similar to the Mountain and the Red Viper. Wizard probably dies without any action by the Sorcerer within 3 rounds assuming the Fighter action surges (with max str the minimum damage would exceed the Wizard's maximized HP after 3 rounds + 2 action surges).

Now, granted, this is almost all contests, so exact details (i.e. presumably Athletics vs Acrobatics or even just a raw Dexterity check) would be necessary to hammer out with the DM, but it's by the book.

1. Per my prior discussion, the Druid is in Fire Elemental form to begin with. On its turn, it turns into an Earth Elemental and Earthglides into the dirt. Sorceror can't see anymore so poof, no Counterspelling whatever the Druid feels like casting. That's why it doesn't matter that the Sorceror has Counterspell. Granted this only works in certain areas because if its in a worked stone dungeon the Druid can't Earthglide. But in those arenas, Druid just has to pop up 65+ft away from Sorc and Counterspell does nothing.

2. Earth Elemental (and Fire for that matter) are immune to Paralyze condition so, you know, good luck with that Hold Monster. Grappling wont do crap either against the Fire form.

3. You aren't going to out Counterspell the Abjurer with its Simulacrum. Why? Well a few reasons:

If they are casting, the Abjurer itself can just Counterspell the Sorc's Counterspell. Poof, eat your Feeblemind and Sorc is out of the fight (especially when the Simulacrum casts it as well).

If the Sorc is casting, the Abjurer would Counter the Sorc, the Sorc would Counter the Abjurer, and the Simulacrum would Counter the Sorc's Counter. Poof goes the Sorc spell.

Lastly, Wizards get Contingency and Sorcs don't. Personally, my Wizards always have Contingency setup for "If I am about to be Counterspelled, cast -> Greater Invisibility/Globe of Invulnerability". Generally I go for GI. Can't Counterspell what you can't see so Contingency automatically defeats Counterspell unless the opponent can see Invisible creatures. Simulacrum would have that loaded up as well.

One Sorc isn't out Counterspelling an Abjurer unless the DM says that Subtle spell means you can't Counterspell (iffy). Truthfully, a Divination Wizard makes this an even more moot point discussion as an earlier poster pointed out.

Oh, and no Wizard on the planet would be caught dead without the Alert feat, come on now.

[Vogonjeltz]

1. Per my prior discussion, the Druid is in Fire Elemental form to begin with. On its turn, it turns into an Earth Elemental and Earthglides into the dirt. Sorceror can't see anymore so poof, no Counterspelling whatever the Druid feels like casting. That's why it doesn't matter that the Sorceror has Counterspell. Granted this only works in certain areas because if its in a worked stone dungeon the Druid can't Earthglide. But in those arenas, Druid just has to pop up 65+ft away from Sorc and Counterspell does nothing.

2. Earth Elemental (and Fire for that matter) are immune to Paralyze condition so, you know, good luck with that Hold Monster. Grappling wont do crap either against the Fire form.

3. You aren't going to out Counterspell the Abjurer with its Simulacrum. Why? Well a few reasons:

If they are casting, the Abjurer itself can just Counterspell the Sorc's Counterspell. Poof, eat your Feeblemind and Sorc is out of the fight (especially when the Simulacrum casts it as well).

If the Sorc is casting, the Abjurer would Counter the Sorc, the Sorc would Counter the Abjurer, and the Simulacrum would Counter the Sorc's Counter. Poof goes the Sorc spell.

Lastly, Wizards get Contingency and Sorcs don't. Personally, my Wizards always have Contingency setup for "If I am about to be Counterspelled, cast -> Greater Invisibility/Globe of Invulnerability". Generally I go for GI. Can't Counterspell what you can't see so Contingency automatically defeats Counterspell unless the opponent can see Invisible creatures. Simulacrum would have that loaded up as well.

One Sorc isn't out Counterspelling an Abjurer unless the DM says that Subtle spell means you can't Counterspell (iffy). Truthfully, a Divination Wizard makes this an even more moot point discussion as an earlier poster pointed out.

Oh, and no Wizard on the planet would be caught dead without the Alert feat, come on now.

What do you mean iffy? If there are no visible components the opponent can't counter spell, that's raw.