Build Advice PLEASE!

[SMac8988]

I am currently in the process of building a ranger/rogue for an online campaign. I want to do beast master, mainly for flavor and accept it probably isn't as strong as hunter. And not 100% on which rogue yet.

My biggest concern is, as a significant oversite, missed that long bows are heavy weapons, and am planning to be a halfling. So I am now at the point of either going a light cross bow, or two hand Crossbows. I know I was planning on riding my mount, but Idk about the rest....

We are starting level 7, not sure in stats yet. But ya can above provide me with some guidance on this, and how to work this out. I don't need to be optimal, but would like decent functionality since we are only a group of 3.

[Fighting_Ferret]

SMac8988, I remember your thread from yesterday asking for party advice. Sorry to bring the bad news about the longbow having the heavy property. You are going to need to answer some questions first...

1)What exactly are you wanting from each class? Do you want access to all the ranger's spells and abilities, or the rogues? Is it just about having a pet?
2)Which class are you going to make your level 1 starting class...this still affects certain things like HP, equipment, saves, skills, tools...
3)What is your vision of the character?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just take a shortbow; it's a tiny difference damage-wise, and range should be less of an issue if you're riding. I wouldn't do two crossbows, since you'll need your bonus action for your beast. I also might well start with straight Ranger, since if I recall correctly they get a really important ability for using their beast at 7.

[JohnStone]

The above post is correct lvl 7 is big for beast ranger. Use a Shortbow grab sharpshooter at lvl 4...done

That said in a 3 man party i might favor Rogue and drop the beast. With the survival skill and outlander background you can get a very rangerlike feel. you'll have more skills and great single target damage. but this is way outside the original post so ill stop there.

[SMac8988]

SMac8988, I remember your thread from yesterday asking for party advice. Sorry to bring the bad news about the longbow having the heavy property. You are going to need to answer some questions first...

1)What exactly are you wanting from each class? Do you want access to all the ranger's spells and abilities, or the rogues? Is it just about having a pet?
2)Which class are you going to make your level 1 starting class...this still affects certain things like HP, equipment, saves, skills, tools...
3)What is your vision of the character?

I am going ranger 5, for second attack to start, then to rogue. So ill have a level to decide my subclass. So level 1 will be Ranger.

From ranger I was looking for the pet and a few of the spells: pass without a trace, Hunters mark, ect. Rogue is the skill variation and sneak attack.

I vision him as almost like Spike from Bebop. Deadly but super laid back. Good in a fight, deadly at range, and almost charming in a sense. I plan to run the pet as a primary mount, so liking at 7 levels in hunter at least, but thinking to just go 8 for the feat/stat.

Short bow could work I guess....

[Fighting_Ferret]

Shortbow allows you to not need the crossbow expert feat to get multi-attacks, at the low low price of roughly 1 point of damage per attack.

So you are going rogue for a low level sneak attack bonus damage? Or 8 Ranger/*Rogue?

[SMac8988]

I haven't honestly decided the split yet. I know at least 8.ranger, for the dash on my pet for a bonus action.

From there Idk, I've considered 13 ranger, 7 assassin for high surprise damage, decent sneak attack and higher ranger spells. But like I said i'm not 100% on it. Looking for advice there.

[Sigreid]

Clearly what you need is a 2 level warlock dip. I'm almost sorry for doing that.

[Professor Gnoll]

Clearly what you need is a 2 level warlock dip. I'm almost sorry for doing that.
Dude, don't encourage bad builds. You know that the 2 level Warlock dip sucks unless you also take the Sailor background.

[SMac8988]

Why would I want either of those things?

[RickAllison]

Why would I want either of those things?

Running gag in another thread.

[Sigreid]

Why would I want either of those things?

You probably wouldn't. Some, however; think those two options are over used.

In all seriousness, a short bow isn't that much of a step down from a long bow in most circumstances. If I were making your choice I would go with a halfling longbow (short bow) and see my vision come to life.

[Hrugner]

I'd take the first two levels of rogue then switch over for your ranger levels. Grabbing the extra skills from a rogue start, cunning action, and your expertise right off will keep you competitive for awhile. There's nothing wrong with starting ranger, but if you're planning to multiclass anyway, getting those first two important rogue levels early is a nice boost. Waiting till much later(4th or 7th) to have a use for your bonus action would be pretty tedious and having easy access to advantage on your attacks will make early level swinginess less of a big deal.

I know you could use your bonus action to cast hunter's mark, but that gives you about the same advantage as hiding as a bonus action does.

[djreynolds]

Here it is.

You can only add your sneak attack damage once a turn, regardless of number of attacks. So you need to ask yourself is 7 levels of rogue, for evasion and uncanny dodge and 4d6 worth of SA damage at 20th level worth it? Are you going to make it to 20th level to see the build come together?

Remember no one is immune to SA anymore. Every level of rogue missed is SA damage missed out on.

So do you want sharpshooter or sneak attack? Beast master is great with a giant owl, fly-by attack is awesome. For a beast master archery build I would only take 2 levels of rogue period.

But for a rogue, I would grab 2 levels of ranger and get archery style, 5 levels for the extra attack is only to ensure that every round you land that sneak attack.

So are you a beast master with some rogue, or a rogue with some beast master?

[MrFahrenheit]

There's no right answer to this. Things to consider:
1. Are you dipping into one class or the other, or do you plan on being a split build? If the former, you don't need more than 3 levels of rogue; if the latter, you may as well hit 8 levels of ranger. In my experience, level 11 in any individual class is typically the first hugely noticeable power jump since level 5, so I personally would advise against a 10/10 split.
2. As for which rogue archetype, I'd advise against thief, only because you want to go ranged. You're still getting the bulk of your features from the overall class, as the subtypes rely on situational features: Assassin works amazingly when you get the drop on enemies, and arcane trickster can be very powerful. Using Mage hand to remove items from a container? As a DM, I'd personally rule that it doesn't apply to holstered melee weapons (that's where thieves come in), but see no problem applying it to the enemy archer's quiver contents.

[djreynolds]

There's no right answer to this. Things to consider:
1. Are you dipping into one class or the other, or do you plan on being a split build? If the former, you don't need more than 3 levels of rogue; if the latter, you may as well hit 8 levels of ranger. In my experience, level 11 in any individual class is typically the first hugely noticeable power jump since level 5, so I personally would advise against a 10/10 split.
2. As for which rogue archetype, I'd advise against thief, only because you want to go ranged. You're still getting the bulk of your features from the overall class, as the subtypes rely on situational features: Assassin works amazingly when you get the drop on enemies, and arcane trickster can be very powerful. Using Mage hand to remove items from a container? As a DM, I'd personally rule that it doesn't apply to holstered melee weapons (that's where thieves come in), but see no problem applying it to the enemy archer's quiver contents.

There may be no right answer, but this answer above is actually SPOT ON.



But beast master, you must invest levels.

[MrFahrenheit]

Lol thanks. I've occasionally toyed with the idea of a zookeeper build: arcane trickster 3/chain lock 3 (patron doesn't really matter, though fey would make sense thematically)/beast master 14. Piss your DM off by taking war caster and engaging in pixie cheese: you'll probably have more creatures on the battlefield than s/he does, and still get to pop an arrow or bolt at +2d6! The lock levels arent necessarily a wash either, by giving you level 2 slots that reset on a long rest, and no one says you HAVE to pick up eldritch blast...in this case at least...

(Edit: math error)

[R.Shackleford]

Why not just buy/find a mount instead of going beast master? You said you just wanted it for the fluff, so raising a war-wolf as part of your background (outlander, you was literally raised by wolves so wolves stick with you) shouldn't be a problem. Ask the DM about this.

Then I would just go Rogue. You don't need the extra attack as sneak attack will work to fill in the damage. Though Hunter Ranger 3/Rogue (Mastermind) X would be a fun build I would just stick with Rogue (Mastermind).

Fluff the bonus action help action as the wolf glaring/growing/intimidating a target.

[MrFahrenheit]

As a DM, I'd be weary about this, namely because it's an extra piece in play both for combat and outside of it, and unlike the beast master companion or a "standard" mount, I'd already be waiting for the player to ask for the creature to get its own separate initiative.

[R.Shackleford]

As a DM, I'd be weary about this, namely because it's an extra piece in play both for combat and outside of it, and unlike the beast master companion or a "standard" mount, I'd already be waiting for the player to ask for the creature to get its own separate initiative.

Players have mounts all the time, the only difference here is that the haggling can ride the wolf into different places.

The player wouldn't be gaining anything from the Rogue (Mastermind) build that a character wouldn't already be able to get.

As a DM I would read up on the mounted rules before giving an ok for this type of creature.

http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Mounted-Combat

"While you’re mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.

You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. Domesticated horses, donkeys, and similar creatures are assumed to have such training. The initiative of a controlled mount changes to match yours when you mount it . It moves as you direct it, and it has only three action options: Dash, Disengage, and Dodge. A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it.

An independent mount retains its place in the initiative order. Bearing a rider puts no restrictions on the actions the mount can take, and it moves and acts as it wishes. It might flee from combat, rush to attack and devour a badly injured foe, or otherwise act against your wishes.

In either case, if the mount provokes an opportunity attack while you’re on it, the attacker can target you or the mount."

Edited Below

Either way the mount gets an initiative, the player wouldn't have to ask for that. If the player is controlling the mount (which you could say is always) then the only actions the mount can take is listed above.

Having a mount being used by a player who knows the rules is no more time consuming than a player who knows the rules and is playing a wizard and casting spells. Even if you play the mount as an independent creature it is still less book work and time consuming than spells.

[SMac8988]

I'm looking at going beast master 13 right now, and 7 levels in rogue. Starting 5 ranger/2 rogue. Going rogue till 9, then back into ranger for a bit. That will give me a feat or stat points, and my sub class abilities.

My beast will be a black wolf and ill probably go short bow, or light cross bow..... Idk yet

[djreynolds]

I'm looking at going beast master 13 right now, and 7 levels in rogue. Starting 5 ranger/2 rogue. Going rogue till 9, then back into ranger for a bit. That will give me a feat or stat points, and my sub class abilities.

My beast will be a black wolf and ill probably go short bow, or light cross bow..... Idk yet

What at ranger 13 is it that you want? Spells?

I would go ranger 12/ rogue 8. The extra ASI will be nice. Remember you can change out beasts, giant owls are pretty good. And theoretically a swashbuckler does not need a companion to get a SA vs a lone enemy. So you giant owl could be used to help you with fly-by attacks and give you advantage on your rolls and you would get sneak attack because of the swashbuckler.

[SMac8988]

What at ranger 13 is it that you want? Spells?

I would go ranger 12/ rogue 8. The extra ASI will be nice. Remember you can change out beasts, giant owls are pretty good. And theoretically a swashbuckler does not need a companion to get a SA vs a lone enemy. So you giant owl could be used to help you with fly-by attacks and give you advantage on your rolls and you would get sneak attack because of the swashbuckler.

13 was mainly for spells. My idea was to bust both conjure animal and conjure woodland in a bad fight and summon a pack of wolves to fight with me. But I think 8 is just as impressive as 16, so either way there. I don't know enough about Swash to pick that. Was thinking assassin due to the high damage of surpise attacks and planning my character to be the stealthy intel character of the group. and being able to knock people down with one hit to keep from getting caught seemed good.

I was planning originally going 8 ranger and 12 rouge, for all the asi. but the multi attack on the beast, seemed like a fixed point I should have for my wolf. but at the same time I plan him mainly as a mount so. idk.....

[R.Shackleford]

13 was mainly for spells. My idea was to bust both conjure animal and conjure woodland in a bad fight and summon a pack of wolves to fight with me. But I think 8 is just as impressive as 16, so either way there. I don't know enough about Swash to pick that. Was thinking assassin due to the high damage of surpise attacks and planning my character to be the stealthy intel character of the group. and being able to knock people down with one hit to keep from getting caught seemed good.

I was planning originally going 8 ranger and 12 rouge, for all the asi. but the multi attack on the beast, seemed like a fixed point I should have for my wolf. but at the same time I plan him mainly as a mount so. idk.....

You can only concentrate on one spell at a time.

[SMac8988]

You can only concentrate on one spell at a time.

Oh didn't know those were concentration spells....

My goal honestly is to capitalize on my one attack each turn and use the other for my beast if needed, and if not to do another sharp shooter attack. Figured adding sneak attack, and poison to my arrows could do that.

[Mors]

Beastmaster rangers can actually be as competitive as any other class, but it requires limiting your choices significantly in order to achieve it. Basically you need to be single classed so that your mount does not lag behind health-wise (unless your mutlticlass gives you a way to make your mount even more durable) and being small so that you can ride your mount and take the mounted combatant feat in order to protect it. Choosing a giant poisonous snake and using bestial fury is actually a lot of damage, and crossbow expert + sharpshooter with hand crossbow or a light one according on if you use bestial fury or not also makes for a more than adequate martial. Check the guide below for more info.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?476182-Guide-Small-size-Beastmaster

[krugaan]

Running gag in another thread.

The thread that keeps on giving. :smallbiggrin:

[SMac8988]

Beastmaster rangers can actually be as competitive as any other class, but it requires limiting your choices significantly in order to achieve it. Basically you need to be single classed so that your mount does not lag behind health-wise (unless your mutlticlass gives you a way to make your mount even more durable) and being small so that you can ride your mount and take the mounted combatant feat in order to protect it. Choosing a giant poisonous snake and using bestial fury is actually a lot of damage, and crossbow expert + sharpshooter with hand crossbow or a light one according on if you use bestial fury or not also makes for a more than adequate martial. Check the guide below for more info.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?476182-Guide-Small-size-Beastmaster

I saw that, and was thinking of picking up find families, somehow, and using a poisonous snake fiend. To coat my arrows. Figured if I can blast out one big hit, and have my beast attack twice, I'd be ding good damage and have good skill stuff

[djreynolds]

I like your build, it is cool and flavorful. You must invest in beastmaster to at least 11th level. Evasion is a nice rogue feature at 7th level, but obtainable through shield master if you go the S&B route while mounted. Uncanny dodge at 5th could be replaced with defensive duelist. So how much rogue do you need and will you select mounted combatant.

Have you considered an alternative to rogue? Life cleric could be nice for heavy armor, unsure if your mount could handle the weight though and more spells.

Beastmaster 16 and cleric 4 could be cool, tempest cleric is another alternative and sacred flame is a nice cantrip with radiant damage.

I suspect you will need mounted combatant and crossbow expert for disadvantage in while shooting ranged in melee.

Anyhow post your build it sounds very cool.

edition

It is possible to ride a horse and still have a beast at your command attacking

[SMac8988]

I like your build, it is cool and flavorful. You must invest in beastmaster to at least 11th level. Evasion is a nice rogue feature at 7th level, but obtainable through shield master if you go the S&B route while mounted. Uncanny dodge at 5th could be replaced with defensive duelist. So how much rogue do you need and will you select mounted combatant.

Have you considered an alternative to rogue? Life cleric could be nice for heavy armor, unsure if your mount could handle the weight though and more spells.

Beastmaster 16 and cleric 4 could be cool, tempest cleric is another alternative and sacred flame is a nice cantrip with radiant damage.

I suspect you will need mounted combatant and crossbow expert for disadvantage in while shooting ranged in melee.

Anyhow post your build it sounds very cool.

edition

It is possible to ride a horse and still have a beast at your command attacking

My big goal is to stay ranged, we have a barb for up close. And ill carry a short sword or rapier for if I get stuck in chose. The shield isn't a bad idea at all, could help a good deal getting advantage on my and my beasts attacks.

I also was wondering the same thing, I feel you can have a horse stomp whole on it, why couldn't my wolf bite while I stab.

the heavy armor Would be to much weight, I think the can only carry like 120lbs without getting encumbered. Which my halfling naked is, like 40ish.

I considered going 9 beast, 11 battle master; for the bonus Asi, heavy armor, and 3 attack. But we have a combat specialist, barbarian, and I was going for more the roleplay side with this character.

[Mors]

Three lvls of tome warlock gives you the book of ancient secrets invocation that lets you take the find familiar spell. Ritual Caster can also give you find familiar from the wizards spell list.

[SMac8988]

I'm very uninterested in warlock. I have one in my current group, they seen powerful but overall nothing like a character I would enjoy.

Ranger is my like favorite class, ya may not be the strongest, and has its problems but I just feel its the most enjoyable for me. And I don't need to be the best in the group, that's why I have friends, we win together!

[MBControl]

If you want to stay ranged, I like the short bow as well. Don't worry about the damage too much with the weapon. You'll get most of the damage with high DEX, Hunter's mark, Hail of Arrows (and other similar spells), sharpshooter feat.

I would probably take a giant owl as my mount, and fly around the battlefield. I also like the idea of a halfling crashing through the bush on a tusked boar, but not for a ranged PC.

[SMac8988]

So I was looking over things, hopefully this isn't like resurrecting or anything for posting after so long.

I was looking at possibly running two hand cross-bows. That way I could use my attack and bonus attack to fire both, since reload isn't a thing I would be fine for the next round of combat, and use my other attack action to either have my wolf attack twice, at level 11, or have him dash and all via that extra attack from level 5.

Would this work? Or would I not be allowed to use that second attack action for all that I am planning.

My other concern would be the aspect of the build being very feat heavy.

Wanting to pick up; Sharp Shooter, Observant and Mobile, and now needing Crossbow Master. I guess since I plan to mount the wolf Mobile could be dropped.

Beast Master 11 - 2 feats
Assassin 9 - 4 feats...

Suggestions?