Some queries on Lycanthropy

[JellyPooga]

Ok, I would put this into the "quick questions RAW" thread, but I felt it needed a bit more than a quick answer...nor may it be RAW.

So, here's the low-down.

I was browsing through Libris Mortis the other day and noticed that the Carcass Eater (from the monsters section) was in fact an Animal (I'd always previously assumed that everything in the Libris Mortis Monster section was Undead).

This got me thinking that one could use the Carcass Eater as the 'Base Animal' for a Lycanthrope (it's an Animal and it's carnivorous). A Halfling as the 'Base Creature' seemed appropriate. The more I thought about it, the more the idea appealed to me based on the imagery and ideals that would surround such a character (possibly quite reserved in humanoid form, but goes into blood frenzies in hybrid and animal form).

So I was checking out the Lycanthropy rules and encountered some discrepancies/points of note that puzzled me somewhat, so I thought I'd bring them here for clarification and/or discussion. So, here they are:

1) Speed. According to the rules for creating a lycanthrope, the Hybrid form uses the speed of the Base Creature (in this case, the Halfling). However, looking at the example stat blocks for some of the were-creatures in the MM, the Hybrid forms were given speeds greater than that of both their humanoid and animal forms, apparantly arbitrarily. The Were-Rat Hybrid form even has a Climb speed for some reason, where neither the human or animal forms do. Can anyone explain this?

2) Ability score adjustments. Now, this may just be me wanting to get the most out of being a lycanthrope as possible for this character, but to work out the effect that using the Hybrid or animal forms on your ability scores, you take the physical abilities of the base animal and subtract 10 or 11 and apply them to the base creatures stats. Pretty standard.
However, in this particular case (Halfling Were-Carcass Eater), the Carcass Eater ends up with a penalty on Strength due to its below 10 Str, despite the fact that according to the description a Carcass Eater is bigger than a halfling (and weighs more). So, when in Animal or Hybrid form, this particular Lycanthrope is slightly bigger (not so as to cause a size change to Medium) but significantly weaker than he was in Humanoid form. This just doesn't seem right to me, because the Carcass Eater has a low Strength as a result of it's small size, much as does a Halfling, rather than because it's feeble for it's size.
Is there some kind of precedent or rule that accounts for this or that would negate the further Strength penalty? Or is it just a sub-optimal choice for a Base Animal?

3)Special Attacks. This is less RAW and more a "isn't this bizarre". I believe that the Hybrid form of a Lycanthrope does not retain the special attacks of the Base Animal. I was wondering why. In this particular case, the Carcass Eater has a special attack called Blood Frenzy that activates when it draws blood. This is the sort of thing I'd expect a Hybrid form to retain, but RAW it doesn't. In some cases, I can see why some hybrids wouldn't retain a special attack (like the Were-wolf not retaining the Wolfs Trip ability, which they have because a Wolfs primary attack is its Bite and it's low posture allows it to get at peoples legs more easily), but in others I don't get it. I assume that the rule is there for ease rather than anything else, but it seems a little...wrong...to me. Thoughts? Comments?

edit:Oops! just had another look at the Lycanthrope section of the MM...please disregard question 1...I was just reading the stat block wrong.:smallredface:

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Is there some kind of precedent or rule that accounts for this or that would negate the further Strength penalty?

No, I do not think so.


Or is it just a sub-optimal choice for a Base Animal?

Possibly


I assume that the rule is there for ease rather than anything else, but it seems a little...wrong...to me.

Ease and balance, perhaps.


Thoughts? Comments?

In this case it would not seem weird to make some kind of house rule allowing it.

[Fax Celestis]

I suddenly have an urge to make a pair of halfling weredog rangers who take turns riding each other.

[Jasdoif]

1) There are discrepancies between the example monster blocks and the stated rules in the description. "Text trumps table" applies here. (I suspect the lycanthrope and related rules changed during development, and the example blocks were never updated; but this is purely opinion.)

2) This might be shifty, however the description says ability scores "improve" when in animal or hybrid form. You could read this to mean that you don't apply a penalty, only bonuses.

3) It does prevent the animal form from being useless. Also, rules to cover what makes sense/balance in hybrid form and what does not (Trample? Sprint? Attach? Pounce? Swallow Whole? Constrict?) are...difficult to generalize. So the rules simply disallow them all, to avoid trouble.

[JellyPooga]

2) This might be shifty, however the description says ability scores "improve" when in animal or hybrid form. You could read this to mean that you don't apply a penalty, only bonuses.

I wondered if anyone else would notice that...I had considered it myself, but wasn't sure if it was little more than rules-lawering.

Fax: That's just wrong in all sorts of ways...

[Jasdoif]

I suddenly have an urge to make a pair of halfling weredog rangers who take turns riding each other.Like the Junkions in the Transformer movie?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

2) This might be shifty, however the description says ability scores "improve" when in animal or hybrid form. You could read this to mean that you don't apply a penalty, only bonuses.


That is exactly how Asmodeus read the Holy Book of Pelor. :smalltongue:

The paragraph says improve because in the example cases ability scores are improved.

It is clearly explained how you are supposed to calculate the adjustments.


Abilities: All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores –10 or –11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

(My emphasis)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I suddenly have an urge to make a pair of halfling weredog rangers who take turns riding each other.

A very nice image, thank you. :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

//bows I do try.

[Jasdoif]

That is exactly how Asmodeus read the Holy Book of Pelor. :smalltongue: Wait...you mean it wasn't because of a DC 30 UMD check for emulated alignment? :smalltongue:

[Umarth]

You could scale up the size of the Carcass Eater before figuring out what it's base stats would be. Size Increases and ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)

I don't have Liber Mortis so I'm not sure what size it starts out but if you take it from Tiny to Small sized you get +4 str, -2 dex.