"Optimizing" the "Sub-Optimal"

[AnimeTheCat]

Hey Everyone,

So I've been doing some brainstorming recently and decided I wanted to build a world from scratch. Not that big of a deal, I've done it before. This time, however, I wanted to make sure that no matter what the PCs did or where they did it, they always felt like "The Heroes". With all the talk of optimizing characters and building behemoth powerful characters that can fell mountains in a single fart, typically you wand NPCs who are "as powerful" (At least in my experience with DMs). I am a little different I guess. Let me break it down:

World is very similar to earth (continents, oceans, ethnic groups, etc.)
Magic is a commodity, it isn't something SUPER prevalent, but it is there
- This means magic items are definitely available and the costs are all the same, but they're not made by the town wizard that knows every spell in the game typically its going to be a sorcerer since they tend to have a more innate grasp of magic but the selection is more specific and maybe he can't make it but he may know a guy a few towns over that can.
On the same token of Arcane magics and magic items, Divine magic is a little less "available"
- This is more or less just a flavorful change, but it does promote the PCs as "Heroes" a bit more. Example: instead of the temple having Clerics, the temple has Healers (from Miniatures Handbook). This means that if the town is being plagued by undead, the healers certainly can fight back with potent healing spells, blessed water, etc. but there is not undead turning. This makes the Cleric in the party seem to have a bit of a "Heroic Edge" on the temple healers.

I'm not trying to run a "Low Magic" campaign setting, been there done that, got the ugly sweater. All I'm trying to do is use some of the other classes in 3.X that aren't raved about as being "Optimal" to make the truly optimal PCs seem to have that much more of an edge on the NPCs.

I'm sure that there will be plenty of people who will just say "oh, just make the NPCs lower level." or "There are NPC classes for that." and "What's wrong with strong NPCs?". I'm not saying I wont use some of the regular NPCs at a slightly lower level, and I'm well aware of the NPC classes, they're just not all inclusive, and there's not a single thing wrong with strong NPCs, I just want the PCs to feel like Heroes and when they face those strong NPCs, they feel like they've accomplished something more than the norm, like they've defeated a rival of some kind.

What's everyone's thoughts on this idea of taking the less optimal character classes and making them in to NPCs? Has it been done before and if so, to what effect? What classes did you use in this way? I'm very much interested in brainstorming further while I stew and build this world up. Thanks for anything you guys come up with!

[OldTrees1]

What's everyone's thoughts on this idea of taking the less optimal character classes and making them in to NPCs? Has it been done before and if so, to what effect? What classes did you use in this way? I'm very much interested in brainstorming further while I stew and build this world up. Thanks for anything you guys come up with!

This was the idea behind the NPC classes. So this idea inherits the pros and cons of using the NPC classes for NPCs.

[AnimeTheCat]

This was the idea behind the NPC classes. So this idea inherits the pros and cons of using the NPC classes for NPCs.

Thanks for the validation, and I do know about the Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, and Warrior NPC classes. I was more looking for more classes that are considered "sub-optimal" to other classes. Also, out of those 5 NPC classes, none of them are an arcane style spell caster. The Adept is a divine spell caster. Is there an arcane variant in one of the various splat books or third party books?

[OldTrees1]

Thanks for the validation, and I do know about the Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, and Warrior NPC classes. I was more looking for more classes that are considered "sub-optimal" to other classes. Also, out of those 5 NPC classes, none of them are an arcane style spell caster. The Adept is a divine spell caster. Is there an arcane variant in one of the various splat books or third party books?

Ah I see. What classes do your Players frequently use (sub-optimal is relative)?

I think Ebberon printed an Arcane Adept of sorts (maybe in the campaign setting). But wasn't this about using suboptimal PC classes (like Healer)? You could always follow Healer by taking an Arcane caster class and gutting the spell list they would cast from.

Most of the martial base classes are sub-optimal (Samurai for example).

[AnimeTheCat]

Ah I see. What classes do your Players frequently use (sub-optimal is relative)?

I think Ebberon printed an Arcane Adept of sorts (maybe in the campaign setting). But wasn't this about using suboptimal PC classes (like Healer)? You could always follow Healer by taking an Arcane caster class and gutting the spell list they would cast from.

Most of the martial base classes are sub-optimal (Samurai for example).

Well, to try and put it in to as simple terms as I can, they frequent forums for building powerful characters. If a class is commonly used in optimizing characters, they use it often. Wizard, Cleric, Druid being some of the favorites. I guess that the best way to say it is that they try their hardest to use the best possible classes for what they want to do, so anything worse than "the best" at any given task or set of tasks is likely to fall in to the list of "sub-optimal"

The post is slightly about both, sub-optimal and NPC classes, but mostly about the sub optimal classes. The only NPC class I was looking for was an arcane variant, which it seems you have answered so that's no longer on the table. Really just looking for those classes that nobody wants to play because they're not "the best" or "something does it better". Thanks a lot for the help btw!

[OldTrees1]

Well, to try and put it in to as simple terms as I can, they frequent forums for building powerful characters. If a class is commonly used in optimizing characters, they use it often. Wizard, Cleric, Druid being some of the favorites. I guess that the best way to say it is that they try their hardest to use the best possible classes for what they want to do, so anything worse than "the best" at any given task or set of tasks is likely to fall in to the list of "sub-optimal"

The post is slightly about both, sub-optimal and NPC classes, but mostly about the sub optimal classes. The only NPC class I was looking for was an arcane variant, which it seems you have answered so that's no longer on the table. Really just looking for those classes that nobody wants to play because they're not "the best" or "something does it better". Thanks a lot for the help btw!

Ambiguously answered. What do they use if they want to play a swordsman? If they default to a Tier 1 caster, then everything Tier 3 and below is a sub-optimal class you could draw upon. If they use a Tier 3 martial class(like Tome of Battle), then you would want to stick to Tier 5 and the occasional Tier 4 class.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ambiguously answered. What do they use if they want to play a swordsman? If they default to a Tier 1 caster, then everything Tier 3 and below is a sub-optimal class you could draw upon. If they use a Tier 3 martial class(like Tome of Battle), then you would want to stick to Tier 5 and the occasional Tier 4 class.

That ^^ is what I'm looking for! They typically Play primarily Tier 1 with occasional dips lower for class abilities (like fighter for feats to qualify for a certain PrC). Any time they do play something lower it is a Tier 3 marital class or something of that nature. I was trying to stay away from the Tier system in my explanation because there tend to be a lot of conversations as to whether something is "Truly" tier X. Thank you for taking my very vague and generalized statements and putting it in to something measurable though. That being said do you know (just off the top of your head) some classes that you could see being great NPC style classes from T3 and lower? One, maybe two of each would be a help for sure just to get the juices flowing for me and other potential posters.

[Telonius]

Marshal would be a decent fit for the commander of a group of guards, soldiers, or similar bunch; also conceivably for a ruler. Knight, for more of a cavalry fighter. You might also look at some of the Unearthed Arcana options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm). Some of them are straight-up worse than the original classes (Cleric trading Turn Undead for Smite Evil, for example).

[Eldariel]

Most PRCs fall under "suboptimal" as in "weaker than the base class"-paradigm, so using those can create some uniqueish NPCs that are practically premade, and significantly weaker than the PCs. The exceptions are well-documented (I recommend checking the PRC tier list if you're not certain here).

Honestly, whether or not you buy it, the tier system more or less categorically tries to address almost every class and prestige class in the system in this sense: it has exactly the information you want and it's accurate enough. Certainly the best databank of this type in existence so it'd be a folly not to use it unless a superior alternative existed. You'll have to make your own provisos for the exact optimization level of course, but that's unavoidable anyways; even a Wizard can easily be completely useless if he refuses to learn any useful spells - everything is inherently a function of the whole, individual ratings of the pieces can only do so much particularly in a system full of combinations.

[johnbragg]

There does seem to be something you want that the Tier system does not address: a lower-tier arcane book-based caster. That requires a little bit of homebrew, but not a ton. Or maybe Eberron's magewrights.

[AnimeTheCat]

There does seem to be something you want that the Tier system does not address: a lower-tier arcane book-based caster. That requires a little bit of homebrew, but not a ton. Or maybe Eberron's magewrights.

I looked in to that and its not exactly what I want, but as OldTrees1 said, just using the Healer class I can make a limited list of spells for the book based caster and switch the class abilities around. Same can be done with the adept class too. Great help!


Most PRCs fall under "suboptimal" as in "weaker than the base class"-paradigm, so using those can create some uniqueish NPCs that are practically premade, and significantly weaker than the PCs. The exceptions are well-documented (I recommend checking the PRC tier list if you're not certain here).

Honestly, whether or not you buy it, the tier system more or less categorically tries to address almost every class and prestige class in the system in this sense: it has exactly the information you want and it's accurate enough. Certainly the best databank of this type in existence so it'd be a folly not to use it unless a superior alternative existed. You'll have to make your own provisos for the exact optimization level of course, but that's unavoidable anyways; even a Wizard can easily be completely useless if he refuses to learn any useful spells - everything is inherently a function of the whole, individual ratings of the pieces can only do so much particularly in a system full of combinations.

The PrC Idea is great! I hadn't thought of that. And, I know I really need to suck it up with the Tier system, I'm just so attached to when I started playing the game, all we had was PHB and DMG and those days were amazing to me. I loved my Rogue/Barbarian that could chunk with the wizard. Not saying all the additions made everything worse, I'm just reminiscing lol. You're absolutely right though, I need to dig deeper into the tier system.


Marshal would be a decent fit for the commander of a group of guards, soldiers, or similar bunch; also conceivably for a ruler. Knight, for more of a cavalry fighter. You might also look at some of the Unearthed Arcana options (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm). Some of them are straight-up worse than the original classes (Cleric trading Turn Undead for Smite Evil, for example).

LOVE that Idea! Hadn't thought about Marshal one bit!

Everyone is helping a tremendous amount!

[OldTrees1]

That ^^ is what I'm looking for! They typically Play primarily Tier 1 with occasional dips lower for class abilities (like fighter for feats to qualify for a certain PrC). Any time they do play something lower it is a Tier 3 marital class or something of that nature. I was trying to stay away from the Tier system in my explanation because there tend to be a lot of conversations as to whether something is "Truly" tier X. Thank you for taking my very vague and generalized statements and putting it in to something measurable though. That being said do you know (just off the top of your head) some classes that you could see being great NPC style classes from T3 and lower? One, maybe two of each would be a help for sure just to get the juices flowing for me and other potential posters.

I love the Fighter and Rogue classes, but for your group they would be a good replacement for the NPC "warrior" and "expert" slots. Healer and Warmage would make good NPC spellcasters.

Although I don't think Bard is sub-optimal enough for your goal, perhaps keep the Adept.

[AnimeTheCat]

I love the Fighter and Rogue classes, but for your group they would be a good replacement for the NPC "warrior" and "expert" slots. Healer and Warmage would make good NPC spellcasters.

Although I don't think Bard is sub-optimal enough for your goal, perhaps keep the Adept.

I don't think I'll be replacing any of the NPC classes by any means, but being more particular about where I use each. If you think about it, a well developed city or capital of a nation will have a more highly trained city guard, thereby warranting the Fighter and Rogue classes, but smaller and less developed villages or settlements would be far more likely to fall in to the Warrior and Expert category. The big idea is, one nation at a time, I'm building geography, government, cities, roads, etc. until I have the world filled. At that point anything is possible and it is going to be glorious! This is just a big first step in making sure I can fill my cities.

[Troacctid]

A lot of prestige classes are junk from an optimization standpoint, but very flavorful and fun for an NPC that doesn't have to worry about power level. Stuff like Knight of the Pearl, Scion of Tem-Et-Nu, Dread Pirate, Prophet of Erathaol, Witchborn Binder, Incandescent Champion, Solar Channeler, Shadowsmith, Blade Bravo, Defiant, Visionary Seeker, Arachnomancer, Crimson Scourge, Brimstone Speaker...there are so many fantastic hooks you can give an NPC.

[AnimeTheCat]

A lot of prestige classes are junk from an optimization standpoint, but very flavorful and fun for an NPC that doesn't have to worry about power level. Stuff like Knight of the Pearl, Scion of Tem-Et-Nu, Dread Pirate, Prophet of Erathaol, Witchborn Binder, Incandescent Champion, Solar Channeler, Shadowsmith, Blade Bravo, Defiant, Visionary Seeker, Arachnomancer, Crimson Scourge, Brimstone Speaker...there are so many fantastic hooks you can give an NPC.

There is a coastal/island area that has the classic pirate theme going on. I have pulled a lot of stuff from Stormwrack for it. A Knight of the Pearl leading the land folk facing off a Dread Pirate leading the seafaring folk seems like it would be so tasty as a story for some PCs looking to play Pirate for a bit. Those all look awesome for some pizazz and flare in the world. I have my work cut out for me, but I'm very excited!

[mabriss lethe]

Adepts are powerful enough in their own right to be a decent baseline divine magic user if you want something a little more flexible than the healer, but less powerful than a cleric. Technically an NPC class, but "spells are that good."

in a non-tier 1 magic setting, spellthief can function as the "mage police."

[Kelb_Panthera]

To optimize is to engage in activities and make choices in order to reach a desired goal in the most efficient manner possible.



What you're looking for is classes that aren't the most efficient at whatever it is they do.

With that out of the way, the default setting assumes that the overwhelming majority of people that the PC's encounter are members of 3 of the 6 NPC classes; commoner, expert, and warrior; and that a significant majority of the rest will be members of the other three; adept, aristocrat, and magewright (ECS 256). It also assumes that the extreme majority of both groups will be level 1.

If you're making a large number of NPC's that are PC class characters of the PC's approximate leve, of course they're not going to feel special without putting together high-op builds (characters optimized to troubleshoot wide varieties of problems with extraordinary efficiency).

On the specifics of your idea, the only thing that strikes me as odd is sorcerers being crafters more than wizards (which I'm presuming exist?). Wizards get bonus feats that -must- be drawn from a restricted selection that includes crafting feats. They all get a crafting feat at level 1 unless they ACF it away. It just makes sense that more wizards would have crafting feats than sorcerers from that alone.

Seriously, just use the NPC classes unless the NPC is supposed to be unique or special in some way. Random priest of St Cuthbert = expert (don't need spells to advise the people) or adept. Mid-rank priest = 90% adept or 10% appropriate divine caster. High-priest of the central temple and direct voice of his god on oerth = cleric 18.

Don't use spellcaster PrC's at all unless you want the NPC to -really- stand out or to pose a serious threat to the party. Non-caster PrC's are generally more flavor than general optimization in the first place but should still be used pretty sparingly. The more homogenous and generic the NPC's are the more special the PC's will feel in comparison.

Frankly, I don't get where you got 'want NPC''s to be rougly as powerful as PC's,' in the first place.

[Telok]

I have formulated rules for NPCs in my campaigns. They're not terribly complicated, you just have to get over the "9/10ths of the population is helpless level 1 commoners". Seriously, those people can barely survive to feed themselves if you accept what's in the books.

Non-monsters accrue trivial amounts of XP for those small challenges that life throws at everyone. For NPCs this maps to a base rate of one level per 10% of rounded maximum lifespan. Now an 80 year old human farmer isn't a 1 HP twig with three 4 rank skills, he's a 7 HD commoner with a Constitution penalty and enough experience to know something useful.

So here's the tables.

Race Max Age Level Age
Human 100 10
Dwarf 375 30
Elf 600 60
Gnome 375 30
Half-elf 175 15
Half-orc 75 10
Halfling 160 15

Event bonus Per event
1 level for active role in major event 1
1 level for participating in two major events 0.5
1 level for surviving four major events 0.25
1 level for active role in two minor events 0.5
1 level for participating in four minor events 0.25
1 level for surviving eight minor events 0.125

Major Events: Major wars, historical turning points, epic journeys,
major exploratory expeditions
Minor Events: Local conflicts, important trade negotiations, very large
battles, powerful discoveries or inventions

Napoleon, age 23, Aristocrat 1/Warrior 1. Level
+.25, the Revolution in 1789 2.25
+.5, the siege of Toulon & the Battle of Saorgio (1793-94) 2.75
+.25, assorted minor events (1794 -95) 3
+.5, the defeat of the royalist insurrection (1795) 3.5
+1, age level 4.5
+1.75, First Italian campaign & minor events (1797) 6.25
+1.5, the Egyptian expedition & minor events (1798-99) 7.75
+1.25, coup d'etat, ruler of France (1799) 9
+1.5, assorted politics and wars through 1803 10.5

ADEPTS
Magician. Spellbook as a wizard and casts arcane spells. Does not have a
fixed spell list. (Use wizard list)
Acolyte. Gets spells from a god. Loses familiar and gains one domain.
Witch. Gets spells from something. Gets one domain on no god's list and
must make sacrifices or do deeds.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town
2% Aristocrats
2% Adepts
10% Warriors
16% Experts
70% Commoners
Assume any NPC can get 5% WBL in 24 hours and 10% in 3 days
Commoners get 50% WBL, mostly in land, furniture, livestock
Aristocrats get 150% WBL, double available cash (10% / 20%)

Yes, I used Napoleon as a benchmark for my NPCs, the other choice was Rasputin.

I generally make about four to six super condensed stat blocks covering levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and possibly variants. My warrior set has Recruit, Veteran(calvary/shield wall), Elite soldier, and Hero/General. Swap races on the fly and vary your descriptions to get all your NPC warrior types. Obviously major antagonists or NPCs that really need specific abilities for the plot get real stat blocks and often non-NPC classes.

Also, don't underestimate NPCs. WBLmancy, planning, and simple cooperation go a long ways towards doing things that five homeless violence-merchants can't accomplish.

[Fizban]

Frankly, I don't get where you got 'want NPC''s to be rougly as powerful as PC's,' in the first place.
I generally figure it comes from other media where the supporting cast and side characters are supposed to be roughly as powerful as the PCs (and the same species), especially video games where every humanoid mook has ten times your hit points regardless of your level.

To further elaborate on your point: DnD 3.5 on the other hand has a nice section in the DMG clearly detailing the level distribution of NPCs in towns. You should never be using more than a handful of classed NPCs past level 1 for anything, both because they simply shouldn't exist and because the game is not balanced around fighting classed NPCs at all.

As for having NPCs use weak PC classes instead of NPC classes, well there's already more PC classes anyway. For the higher level people that actually matter, high level persons in PC classes outnumber those in NPC classes by roughly 3:1. The Warrior and Commoner get slightly higher rolls for their top-level people, but the reason NPC classes dominate the population is simply because everything not covered by those rolls is then split between the NPC classes. You could replace the 0.5% of population that is 1st level Adepts with 1st level Healers and not much would change. Replacing the Warriors with Fighters would result in slightly tougher militaries fighting slightly tougher militaries. You could replace the high level Adepts with high level healers and again not much would change, since there are already high level Clerics around anyway.

To take the existing system and do what you want, you'd declare that the classes your player prefer are super special restricted classes that they all happen to have gained, and replace the entire table of classes for city NPCs with whatever classes you want NPCs to be using.

I'll also second the point that NPCs can use PrCs just as easily as the PCs. NPCs are also more likely to take the sort of classes that just do a thing rather than give them a bazillion char-op-tions: they spend most of their lives being normal instead of planning for their next mad fight against monstrosities from beyond.

[Telok]

If you want to use the tables in the DMG to build your populations then you need to fully read those sections and work out what they really produce. People make lots of claims about that section that don't hold up when you check the numbers.

I'm away from my books right now but if I recall correctly it something like 90% of the population is in the three smallest town sizes, and each of those has a 10% chance for a... something like 6 to 11 level druid plus the lower level druids that generates, and another 10% chance for a ranger of the same level. It really skews away from what people assume.

As I recall from when I ran the numbers both the percentage of commoners and the percentage of first levels were both 85% or less. I've forgotten the rest but it's in a spreadsheet somewhere (and there's a post on these forums that covers it too). But thats why I just threw out those rules and came up with my system. The DMG rules are really much more PC classed and spellcaster heavy than most people assume.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll elaborate more on the idea and plan since I guess I haven't been clear about what I'm planning and building.

In many small towns and cities you have a very average guard and militia. They would simply be, for a small village, level 1 or 2 warriors. Not highly trained but able to hold their own better than the classless commoner. In large cities, port towns, capital cities, and the like, you typically have a more tiered system with your level 1/2 warriors patrolling the streets and keeping rest within the town whereas the actual army is much more heavily trained and outfitted. Yes that means that the majority is going to be level 3-5 warriors. Substantially better than your classless commoner. How I see an "army" of a major nation is a breakdown like this.

80% lvl 3-5 warriors
15% lvl 3-4 warriors with 1-2 levels of fighter (feats to express advanced training)
--This will reflect operative groups for raiding, mounted specialization, etc.
4% Lvl 2-3 warriors with 1-2 levels of Marshal
--These are the "leaders" for small groups. They are the ones that traditionally pass orders down long lines of troops and pass on bonuses due to how the troops view them
<1% Lvl 1-2 warriors with 3-4 levels of Fighter
--This group is typically only 1-3 people as they are the generals and military advisors for the ruler of the nation

As you can see by that, I'm not just making all NPCs that are town guards fighters. That would completely negate the effect I'm trying to have. What I'm trying to do is make certain NPCs seem better than others, yet still inferior to the PCs. You get the effect of "Captain Gildrad(warrior 3/fighter 2) is the strongest man in town. There's nobody who can stand toe-to-toe with him!" and it builds hype up about the character. Anyone will say he is inferior in every way to the party Ranger 2/Fighter 4 simply on the principal of level difference, class features, feats, etc. You don't even have to be "Optimized" to be able to be effective against such a character. The fight won't be as easy as if you were fighting the same character as a warrior 5, but that's why the PCs will feel even more powerful afterwards. There was risk, there was hype, and they stepped up. They may not actually win, but that's ok because that seems FAR more realistic to me.

As for Sorcerers as item creators instead of wizards. You bring up valid points, wizards get item creation feats for free, it's kind of their shtick. I don't think that a town the size of pumpkintown is going to have a studied wizard as the town magic user. It seems far more likely that they would have something along the lines of a shaman or seer or something along those lines. Shamans and seers are not studied book people, they're people who are innately attuned to the magics of the world. That being said, it also easily limits the types of magic items that can be created in a particular area by selecting spells for a sorcerer that make sense for the area (frosty north might have a predominantly fire casting sorcerer or, if he embraces the cold an ice casting sorcerer). It builds simple flavor in to the world.

TL;DR: I'm not saying every NPC will be an equal level PC class, but I want to use the PC classes to increase the difficulty for players who are good at building high power characters. Using PC classes just opens up for lots of build in flavor that the game already writes out and that I don't have to homebrew.

[AnimeTheCat]

To optimize is to engage in activities and make choices in order to reach a desired goal in the most efficient manner possible.



I also like to point out that this is only a partial definition of optimize.


Optimize - Verb, To make the best or most effective use of (a situation, opportunity, or resource).
"to optimize viewing conditions, the microscope should be correctly adjusted"

That does not mean that you must always follow the best path from level 1 to 20 but rather make you the most effective you can be if your character is already a healer 5/combat medic 2. What I'm doing is taking classes that are not as good as others and making them the best they can be, therefore Optimizing the Sub-Optimal just as the title says.

[Fizban]

If you want to use the tables in the DMG to build your populations then you need to fully read those sections and work out what they really produce. People make lots of claims about that section that don't hold up when you check the numbers.

I'm away from my books right now but if I recall correctly it something like 90% of the population is in the three smallest town sizes, and each of those has a 10% chance for a... something like 6 to 11 level druid plus the lower level druids that generates, and another 10% chance for a ranger of the same level. It really skews away from what people assume.

As I recall from when I ran the numbers both the percentage of commoners and the percentage of first levels were both 85% or less. I've forgotten the rest but it's in a spreadsheet somewhere (and there's a post on these forums that covers it too). But thats why I just threw out those rules and came up with my system. The DMG rules are really much more PC classed and spellcaster heavy than most people assume.
It's a 5% chance, and thorps and hamlets make up 40% of the percentile for random town sizes. That's an extra 2 thorplets with a 10th-ish ranger or druid for every metropolis, while each metropolis has a minimum of 4 rangers and 4 druids each at minimum 13th level.

What you're thinking of is probably a real-life statistic that says 90% of the population is outside the cluster of buildings focused on as the city, but the surrounding area is included in the population of the main city in DnD.

[Telok]

What you're thinking of is probably a real-life statistic that says 90% of the population is outside the cluster of buildings focused on as the city, but the surrounding area is included in the population of the main city in DnD.
I'll take your word on what the tables say as I haven't had time in days to dig out the book. But you need to read more than just the tables. Earlier in thhat section of the DMG it says 90% of the population is in those smallest town sizes. That's why I keep telling people that if they want to use those as rules then they need to actually read the thing, not just start rolling on charts and claiming that they're accurate for anything.

[Azoth]

I remember for a while, I was doing some weird personal thought exercises involving optimizing NPCs using primarily the Racial Paragon classes since it was low level.

Making use of those may be a place to start.

Somewhere I also have a Hexblade 20 Build that 5 times per day can make an enemy suck for a round. Something with stacking Doomsong, Vexing Weapon, Shadow Companion, Death Devotion, and fear escalation. I need to dig it up. I remember I built it specifically to counter the A Game Paladin.

[Fizban]

I'll take your word on what the tables say as I haven't had time in days to dig out the book. But you need to read more than just the tables. Earlier in thhat section of the DMG it says 90% of the population is in those smallest town sizes. That's why I keep telling people that if they want to use those as rules then they need to actually read the thing, not just start rolling on charts and claiming that they're accurate for anything.
Been a while since I read the intro since I'm usually looking up info for a given city rather than trying to stat every place on and off the map. It's also the first time I've ever referenced that part of the tables (no one actually rolls for the size of the city), and has no bearing on the rest of the section. And so there's a 5% chance per tiny place that there's a extra random mid-level character, meh. Villages are still in the bottom three sizes and get no special rolls so if it's such a concern then use villages instead, or just get rid of the mysterious woodsman roll entirely. It screams plot hook justification to me more than anything else.

It sounds like the point you're getting at is that thorp=high percentage of non-commoners and non 1st levels, and tons of thorps means the overal percentage stays high. Tiny communities having a disproportionately large bodies of PC classes is clearly an aberration of the system they set up for determining high level PCs for places that actually matter. The rules are primarily meant for seeing if someone of X level is around and used for that they're fine, but applying that small community aberration to the entire population is worse than taking the random town percentages at face value.

[ericgrau]

First stick with the existing rules that only elite NPCs get PC classes and the elite array, where elite means foes that are as special and rare as the PCs. The BBEG and so on. Other NPCs get the non-elite array and other classes. You might make elite foes even more uncommon than usual.

Second bringing in the healer as an additional NPC class is a nice idea. Other classes from D&D minis could be nice too. If you need additional variety, make sure there is a class that has everything you want. For example if you use ToB, have an NPC class that gets a bare bones maneuver progression. Perhaps crusader refresh and access to a single discipline.

Perhaps a "magician" or "magi" class that casts off a severely limited list and with slowed progression like the adept would be nice. It could be a prepared class like a wizard.

Perhaps some other classes that make nice easy to use foes, or that make good support characters to tag along with the PCs without stealing their thunder. Something with trapfinding, track and/or etc., maybe a "Guide" class. Something that turns undead, but has lousy divine spells. Primarily anti-undead spells most likely, and perhaps some weak melee ability. But heavy armor or else ranged weapons he doesn't become a frail liability. Something that grapples and/or disables in other ways, but has poor damage. Or whatever suits your fancy.

[AnimeTheCat]

First stick with the existing rules that only elite NPCs get PC classes and the elite array, where elite means foes that are as special and rare as the PCs. The BBEG and so on. Other NPCs get the non-elite array and other classes.

I planned on using this exact method. The only time I would ever roll stats for a BBEG is if he was a long standing rival that would encounter the party multiple times.

[ericgrau]

It sounds like you need this quick and dirty NPC class.

Magi
Poor BAB, high will save
d4 HD
Prepares spells as wizard. Starts knowing all magi cantrips and gains 3 spells known per level.
Spells per day equal to a bard's spells known.
Bonus feat at level 1,5,10,15 and 20 selected from this list: scribe scroll, brew potion, craft wand, enlarge spell, extend spell, silent spell, still spell, eschew material components, spell mastery. Any splatbook feats you deem appropriate, such as utility metamagic, utility spell feats and low level consumable crafting.

A magi prepares spells from the list below. Additionally he may prepare any spell from the wizard list for item creation purposes, though he cannot actually cast it for other purposes. He can however use the items he makes.

Since many of their spells are not used under time pressure, Magi love to leave a spell slot open and spend 15 minutes preparing it later.



0: Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestidigitation

1: Alarm, Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Protection From Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Undead, Identify, Floating Disk, Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person

2: Obscure Object, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Fog Cloud, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Continual Flame, Darkness, Gust of Wind, Shatter, Invisibility, Magic Mouth, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, Spectral Hand, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Knock, Owl's Wisdom, Spider Climb, Whispering Wind

3: Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Phantom Steed, Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Tongues, Heroism, Rage, Daylight, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall, Displacement, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Gentle Repose, Fly, Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Weapon, Water Breathing

4: Dimensional Anchor, Remove Curse, Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Secure Shelter, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Shadow Conjuration, Mass Enlarge Person, Mnemonic Enhancer, Mass Reduce Person, Stone Shape

5: Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Mage's Private Sanctum, Mage's Faithful Hound, Secret Chest, Teleport, Prying Eyes, Telepathic Bond, Sending, Dream, False Vision, Seeming, Shadow Evocation, Passwall, Telekinesis, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Permanency

6: Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk, Veil, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strenght, Mass Cat's Grace, Control Water, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mage's Lucubration, Move Earth, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Stone to Flesh.

You may also decide that similar spells from spell compendium are allowed too. You may think that many of these are actually pretty good, but even the better ones are still support spells that do little without a strong party. Like Teleport, wow, but what's a magi going to do after he pops in alone?

And like you said there are different levels of NPC power. So maybe you'll allow warmage as an NPC blaster class too if you need a mage that can actually fight.