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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Complete Rebalance of the Summon Monster X Spells.



SecretlyaFish
2016-04-13, 05:59 PM
So, this is a work I've decided to do entirely by myself in my free time. I'll mostly be focusing on the Summon Monster 1-9 Spells, and not their offshoots like Natures Ally and others etc. The reason I've gone about this is I've looked through the 3.5 Summon Monster list it's really good in some cases, really bad in others.

A perfect example is the between the Bone Devil you can summon for SM 7, and the Hellcat you can summon through SM 8. Hellcat at SM 8? Its a CR 7 8HD monster, for an 8th level spell. Useless in most cases, by the time I get to be able to cast 8th level spells I'll just bind a Horned Devil or a Pit Fiend or some other high powered demon/celestial. Obviously 1d3 CR 9 10HD Bone Devils is going to be more useful than a single Hellcat in 9/10 situations. Its like the designers just didn't really think about it.

For MY version of summon monster 1-9, hit dice will not be looked at. Only CR will. Cr 13, will be the max amount, that you can summon through MM 9. This will include things like devils, demons, aspects, celestials, magical beasts, etc, provided you have adequate knowledge and have researched enough about that sort of thing to be able to have that creature in your list of summonable things.

This is a massive undertaking, and I require minimal help. I will start at CR10-13 For SM 9 then begin to work my way down.

I have a few questions however. What kinds of creatures can typically be Summoned with these spells. I know of Outsiders, Magical beasts, and Elementals. Anything else? Golems? Regular Animals? Aberrations? What can and cannot be summoned reasonably.

On top of that, for the moment, these spells aren't really affected very well by metamagic, such as maximize or empowerment or other ones like that. I'd like for maximize to do something. Such as maximum hit points or if you choose to use say, SM 5 for a SM 2 spell to get many creatures, you can then get the maximum amount allowed.

Thanks guys.

Edit.

Please keep in mind "Balance" is a loose term. This will likely end up being more powerful than the regular spells, but in my mind will make greater sense and bring more utility to the spells. Its meant to be RP'ed in game, with the player doing research on particular outsiders or elementals etc, until he can finally add something to his list of monsters. You should still use the regular spells, but through either RP and research from the character, the spells can be much improved upon.

T.G. Oskar
2016-04-13, 06:58 PM
So, this is a work I've decided to do entirely by myself in my free time. I'll mostly be focusing on the Summon Monster 1-9 Spells, and not their offshoots like Natures Ally and others etc. The reason I've gone about this is I've looked through the 3.5 Summon Monster list it's really good in some cases, really bad in others.

A perfect example is the between the Bone Devil you can summon for SM 7, and the Hellcat you can summon through SM 8. Hellcat at SM 8? Its a CR 7 8HD monster, for an 8th level spell. Useless in most cases, by the time I get to be able to cast 8th level spells I'll just bind a Horned Devil or a Pit Fiend or some other high powered demon/celestial. Obviously 1d3 CR 9 10HD Bone Devils is going to be more useful than a single Hellcat in 9/10 situations. Its like the designers just didn't really think about it.

Do note that the Bone Devil, while it has more attacks, lacks Pounce (so it's not entirely mobile), deals less damage (Hellcat has more Strength), and the Invisibility in Light ability makes it stealthy as well (only See Invisibility and True Seeing can deal with it). So the Hellcat is somewhat more offensive; the Bone Devil is a bit more defensive what with the fear aura and being meatier (ironically).

That said - yeah, based mostly on HD, it's kind of a poor character compared to the Bone Devil, which if set-up correctly, can eventually deal more damage (Fear Aura reduces saves, which makes its poison far more effective). However, they're close enough to make them capable of being summoned by the same spell.


For MY version of summon monster 1-9, hit dice will not be looked at. Only CR will. Cr 13, will be the max amount, that you can summon through MM 9. This will include things like devils, demons, aspects, celestials, magical beasts, etc, provided you have adequate knowledge and have researched enough about that sort of thing to be able to have that creature in your list of summonable things.

This is a massive undertaking, and I require minimal help. I will start at CR10-13 For SM 9 then begin to work my way down.

Note that CR isn't exact - the Adamantine Horror at CR 10 is one of the best-known pieces of data that prove it. Magical Beasts' CR is not the same as the CR of an Outsider, which has less HD but is more powerful overall - however, if trying to keep them close to their CR, you can end up summoning That Damn Crab and just...making things go out of whack. Going by CR is a good ballpark measurement, but for that kind of massive development, you should really measure each creature individually, evaluate their uses, and see if they really meet their CR or not - that can be done after using the ballpark measurement, tho.


I have a few questions however. What kinds of creatures can typically be Summoned with these spells. I know of Outsiders, Magical beasts, and Elementals. Anything else? Golems? Regular Animals? Aberrations? What can and cannot be summoned reasonably.

Outsiders, Magical Beasts and Elementals. Animals are the terrain of Summon Nature's Ally, and Golems are often built, not summoned (though you can summon/call them with their own spell). Note that the animals you summon are Celestial/Fiendish versions anyways - you could replace those with Axiomatic or Anarchic if you so desire.


On top of that, for the moment, these spells aren't really affected very well by metamagic, such as maximize or empowerment or other ones like that. I'd like for maximize to do something. Such as maximum hit points or if you choose to use say, SM 5 for a SM 2 spell to get many creatures, you can then get the maximum amount allowed.

Maximize does work, but when used to summon more than one creature - as you mentioned, when you use SMV to summon creatures from the SMII list, you get...1d4+2 creatures, right? You instead get 6; Empowered means you get 1d4+2 plus half the result.

That said - most Metamagic feats aren't really meant for Summon spells. Summon spells are already incredibly flexible.


Edit.

Please keep in mind "Balance" is a loose term. This will likely end up being more powerful than the regular spells, but in my mind will make greater sense and bring more utility to the spells. Its meant to be RP'ed in game, with the player doing research on particular outsiders or elementals etc, until he can finally add something to his list of monsters. You should still use the regular spells, but through either RP and research from the character, the spells can be much improved upon.

Balance or not, my idea of a fun summoner is to have them build their own list of summons. Most of the summons you get are unavailable because of alignment restrictions, so I'd tweak it to have the lists be comprised of all monsters from your alignment, plus a handful of monsters from those you qualify that you have to study. Only those from the "base" list are given automatically if you meet their exact alignment (so, all Neutral summoners get all base elementals for free); the rest can be researched as per any other (thus, a Neutral summoner gets the biggest amount of flexibility, but its spell slot limitation means it has to choose carefully; others have less flexibility in choices but that also gives them some extra choice).

That said - I'd be nicer to certain characters. Lawful Good gets shafted. often horribly (I mean, SM VII: Lawful Evil gets the Bone Devil, CE gets the Babau, CG gets a Djinni (not so bad), NG gets the Avoral, LG gets...a Celestial Elephant), and NE mostly as well. CG, LE and CE often get a wide variety, and LN...doesn't even exist! (which makes Lawful Neutrals and Lawful Good summoners poorly equipped).

Silva Stormrage
2016-04-13, 07:33 PM
If you are looking to rebalance the summon monster spell list I might suggest making them better at low levels which is when they really struggle. Making the duration 5 Rounds + 1 round/level for example would maybe make someone cast SMI instead of grease or color spray in some situations.

Also this list might be useful to you if you didn't already know about it:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5

SecretlyaFish
2016-04-13, 11:40 PM
I really like the ideas you guys suggested. I'll mostly be rebalancing these 2 tables. Obviously, monsters outside the table will be included as well. Some will get moved down, most will be I'd imagine. Some moved up. A summoned 5 headed hydra at lvl 7 seems pretty OP (its CR 4).

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.msg162718#msg162718

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6320.0

Then I'll be adding magical beasts and elementals, and I'll be done. Still gonna be a lot of work.

As for the Alignment restrictions... I think they should be relaxed. Evil can summon evil, good can summon good. Its up to you as a DM what you want to allow.. Neutral should be able to go either way, provided true neutral summons NE and NG, or just plain neutral Magical Beasts.

This is a REALLY big undertaking. Its gonna take me some time so you won't see me posting much, until I have something to post. It certainly won't be as in depth as some of those other guides etc but I'll be using their advice and my own opinions to come up with a list.

Hydra's are going to be included as summons since they are magical beasts. That should give a neutral character some nice summons if you or your DM is a stickler about alignments.

Deepbluediver
2016-04-14, 01:32 PM
I've had my own discussions regarding the Summon Monster line (and my own thoughts about rebalancing it) but I'll try to stay on topic. If I start to stray to far afield, someone call me on it.

One thing that came out of prior discussions was that the the CRs for some monsters are kinda bjorked, and/or only applicable under very specific circumstances.
Personally I'd love to just be able to say something like "Summon Monster V: summon any monster (of eligible types) with a CR of 6 or less" etc, which opens up all the splatbooks without having to sort through them 1 by 1. But that sort of open-ended thing is an invitation for abuse or min-maxing in most cases.

Also, have you considered a "Summon Monster 0(zero)" spell? For the really low-level stuff?


I have a few questions however. What kinds of creatures can typically be Summoned with these spells. I know of Outsiders, Magical beasts, and Elementals. Anything else? Golems? Regular Animals? Aberrations? What can and cannot be summoned reasonably.
AFAIK only Celestial or Fiendish versions of animals are summons. Regular animals are summoned with the "Nature's Ally" line. I don't believe Constructs are normally summoned, though I can't really come up with a strong argument against them if you find something interesting. Again AFAIK, aberations are not normally summoned, but I think they would fit the theme well if you want. There's a "Beholderkin Eyeball" from the Monsters of Faerun book that seems interesting, if perhaps not the most powerful, for a low-level summon spell.


On top of that, for the moment, these spells aren't really affected very well by metamagic, such as maximize or empowerment or other ones like that. I'd like for maximize to do something. Such as maximum hit points or if you choose to use say, SM 5 for a SM 2 spell to get many creatures, you can then get the maximum amount allowed.
When I was working on this I replaced the original Augment Summon metamagic feat with one that boosted HD, Strength and Dexterity (instead of Str and Con) and the Save DCs for special abilities. It also scaled based on Caster-level.

noob
2016-04-14, 02:30 PM
Golems
For that there is a spell called summon golem and it makes only golems that are completely obsolete at the level where you can cast it.

Deepbluediver
2016-04-14, 02:36 PM
For that there is a spell called summon golem and it makes only golems that are completely obsolete at the level where you can cast it.
Yeah, from one of the links someone posted there's a whole lot of very specific (and mostly underwhelming) Summer [Monster Type X] spells. Personally I don't have any real objecting to summoning construct and undead with the regular "Summon Monster" line, long as you avoid difficult questions around creatures that would normally be free-willed and intelligent.

SecretlyaFish
2017-03-21, 02:37 AM
Real life happened when I tried to do this before, and I lost all my progress. I will still be working on something like this in my spare time, and I'll try to keep it somewhat updated. I'm gonna stick with the theme of my character first (lawful evil) and work on those creatures. I will look at each monster and if I think its too powerful for its CR than I will not include it in the list, or at the very least put it at a higher level summon spell than its CR might normally warrent.

The idea is for a summoner to be useful and for you to summon useful creatures that are COOL. Seriously, I don't care how good a celestial elephant can be made to be, that is NOT a cool summon, doesn't make you feel cool or your character feel cool, in my opinion anyways. There will be a basic list of what each alignment should be able to summon, then there are going to be monsters that are special/powerful/not as well known, that as the player character in conjuction with your DM, you will need to roleplay in order to summon. So for example, instead of spending the 2000 gold you just got on a new cloak or something, you could use it to instead do research and expand your summon monster repertoire. This could keep the summoner slightly in check, meaning that, as a player, he would need to be really smart in how and where he summons his creatures because, he as a character may not be particularly well protected. Just a thought.

I will mostly be covering fiends, demons, and eventually going through the books and finding celestials. Then I can go through and look at other outsiders such as elemental's and spirits, possibly fey? The idea is to do it in smaller chunks so as to avoid feeling overwhelmed and burning out. Keep in mind those reading that my interpretation of "balance" may be different than yours so while I am making my table, feel free for your own version of it and customize it to suit your needs.

Deepbluediver
2017-03-21, 06:44 PM
The idea is for a summoner to be useful and for you to summon useful creatures that are COOL. Seriously, I don't care how good a celestial elephant can be made to be, that is NOT a cool summon, doesn't make you feel cool or your character feel cool, in my opinion anyways.
Doesn't that come down to player preference though? Imagine a scenario where your stalwart band of heroes is besieging a wicked citadel of evil, and in order to bust through the gate you summon up a celestial pachyderm and go at it Hanibal style- if someone can't make that look awesome they aren't trying very hard.
It's like the Battle of Pelennor Fields (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Pelennor_Fields) with the alignments reversed.

While I applaud your efforts to rework the Summon Monster lines, I don't feel like your individual opinion of what's cool or not should be the deciding factor for what makes the list.

SecretlyaFish
2017-03-22, 03:38 AM
Doesn't that come down to player preference though? Imagine a scenario where your stalwart band of heroes is besieging a wicked citadel of evil, and in order to bust through the gate you summon up a celestial pachyderm and go at it Hanibal style- if someone can't make that look awesome they aren't trying very hard.
It's like the Battle of Pelennor Fields (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Pelennor_Fields) with the alignments reversed.

While I applaud your efforts to rework the Summon Monster lines, I don't feel like your individual opinion of what's cool or not should be the deciding factor for what makes the list.

Don't worry about it they will still be there, my own opinion isn't going to keep things off the list, I guess I just want a specialized list, rather than generic fiendish/celestial creatures. But like I said just my opinion. That does sound cool, but I think I'd rather summon a Goristro/devil equivilant to knock down the gate of some goodly kingdom followed my Malebranches charging the lines of defenders with legion devils behind! Hahahaha. But yeah don't worry, those creatures will remain intact. They just won't remain a priority in rebalancing until the specialized angels demons and special elementals etc get finished.