factorum / artificer build

[Chewychunga]

looking at making a factotum14/artificer6 or 15/5 basically for the item crafting feats and skill monkey and thinking about Xbows (just cause i like them)
am a kobold
feats
lvl 1 dragon wrought
Flaw1 Rapid reload
flaw2 University training
lvl 3 Item familiar
lvl 5 artificer4 bonus extra rings
lvl 6 quicken metamagic
lvl 9 practical metamagic -Quicken
lvl 12 forge ring
lvl 15 knowlage devotion
lvl 18 precise shot
lvl 20 Rapid shot

wondering the playgrounds suggestions of feats?
the practical meta is so i can make wands with quickened lvl 1 spells
im allowed a bit of extra flexablity with my feats cause im being the item crafter and skill monkey (party has no one else)

[Gildedragon]

What is University Training?

[Chewychunga]

bonus skill points from Aeg source feats

[fishyfishyfishy]

You cannot take Extra Rings until after you get Forge Ring. (Edit: it also requires caster level 12) Artificer is generally a bad class to multi-class. It's very good all on its own and maybe a few select Prestige Classes. If you want more flexibility with crafting on a Factotum base, why not go Chameleon for the floating bonus feat? It's a crafting feat when you want, or a maneuver granting feat when you need, or one of those Incarnum feats for soulmelds. The possibilities are endless!

[Chewychunga]

i cant take Chameleon because im not a human have Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks or Sense Motive 4 rank or Feat: Able Learner* feat. and i thought you didnt need the prereq for the bonus feats.. or is that only some classes like ranger?\
i also took the 5 levels of artificer so i can break magic items down for exp and use it as crafting bonus (same as bonus EXP from item familiar)

[fishyfishyfishy]

Bonus feats only ignore prerequisites if the feature granting them specifically says that it does. Compare the Fighter bonus Feats to the Ranger. The Ranger may ignore prerequisites while the Fighter has no such text. The same is true of the Artificer.

Your original post makes it seem as though this is a new character you are creating, but your last reply seems as though this character already exists and you are seeking critique. Which is it? I ask because of it's a new character you can easily alter the build to fit with Chameleon, or any other PrC.

[Chewychunga]

we have a face thats doing all the social and none of the party is human.. a few others have chars that dont like human so they basically out
ive love underdark creatures like drow kobolds gnomes ithilids so i always try and play one.. the kobold is the only race i havent played and was hoping to
plus the bonus int with age and stuff helps :)

[Kelb_Panthera]

You realize that changelings can take able learner?

[bahamut920]

And so can aasimar, tieflings, zenythri, chaonds, almost everything from Races of Destiny (including mongrelfolk), and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And so can aasimar, tieflings, zenythri, chaonds, almost everything from Races of Destiny (including mongrelfolk), and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

That doesn't follow. Even if you define "human" pretty loosely, it doesn't include the planetouched. Those are human descended outsiders. Even lesser versions of the same would be iffy.

Human, doppleganger, and changeling are explicit (eberron adaptation). You can, of course, ask for DM permission to take it as any human descended race but it's not clearly allowed by the rules.

[Chewychunga]

still seems like a waste to me of 20 skill points and a feat to get a prc.. plus i lose out on the breaking items for exp.. i only gain 3 levels of factorum
why is thoes 3 levels so powerful? and why is arti so bad at multi classing? i also lose the dedicated wright so i cant craft while on move

[Kelb_Panthera]

I thought you were focusing on factotum? Pretty sure that's what we're talking about with taking the chameleon levels. If you're primarily an artificer then it's probably not worth it. If you are primarily a factotum though, you can use the floating bonus feat for crafting on downtime and for combat options in the field. There -are- crafting feats that an artificer doesn't get as a bonus feat, after all; skull talismans, herbal infusions, minor schema, etc.

Anyway, the problem with multiclassing artificer is that you lose CL on the items you create and, unlike other crafters, the CL on your crafted items actually matters since it's the CL you use to interact with the world. Same goes for the CL on your infusions. There are a few PrC's that advance infusions and CL for an artificer but most of those give benefits that are strictly inferior to continuing with straight artificer.

[weckar]

Personally, although the argument has been made many times, I still see very little reason personally to take the Artificer beyond the point where you can refill the crafting pool. In 3.5, magic items don't have an explicit caster level requirement to craft them - just access to the required spells and components. While this does mean your spell trigger items will be significantly weaker, your wondrous items and other goodies (rings, arms & armor) need not suffer at all from an early Artificer exit.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Personally, although the argument has been made many times, I still see very little reason personally to take the Artificer beyond the point where you can refill the crafting pool. In 3.5, magic items don't have an explicit caster level requirement to craft them - just access to the required spells and components. While this does mean your spell trigger items will be significantly weaker, your wondrous items and other goodies (rings, arms & armor) need not suffer at all from an early Artificer exit.

Minimum caster level required is a thing. It's usually the minimum needed for the prerequisite spells, but it can also be based on the enhancement bonus of the item in question.

Sources: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

[weckar]

If an Artificer (or warlock) UMDs the spells, that's out. And the caster level of the item does indicate saving throw etc. Nowhere does it say that the caster level of the item has anything to do with the caster level of the crafter though. Heck, artificers don't HAVE a caster level. Caster level being explicitly listed ABOVE the prerequisites kind of makes them unrelated, too.

[fishyfishyfishy]

It seems I've been misreading this entry.


Prerequisites
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

I was including the item's caster level in the requirements.

Edit: just found this under creating magic armor. It seems that I was correct, but it doesn't extend to weapons.

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Personally, although the argument has been made many times, I still see very little reason personally to take the Artificer beyond the point where you can refill the crafting pool. In 3.5, magic items don't have an explicit caster level requirement to craft them - just access to the required spells and components. While this does mean your spell trigger items will be significantly weaker, your wondrous items and other goodies (rings, arms & armor) need not suffer at all from an early Artificer exit.

An artificer's CL (he does, in fact, have one) affects a number of things but amongst the most important of these is the effect on his infusions. They become harder to dispel, they last longer, their range increases, etc as his CL increases.

In regards to the items he creates, lower CL makes them easier to suppress, limits the bonus he can place on the standard +X to Y bonus items (they nearly all have the creator must have 3 X the CL of the bonus to craft prereq'), and reduces the effectiveness of spell trigger and spell completion items he makes.

The highlighted is not a detriment to be underestimated. Without spell-trigger items or infusions an artificer is lesser than even a rogue or fighter. Many a wondrous item will function adequately at reduced CL but sac'ing 5 levels of progression to being able to craft such things will make crafting them absolutely necessary and leave a character less capable than he otherwise would've been.

Eating loot for the craft reserve means you can't also sell it to keep up with WBL guidelines (in before WBL is BS). Simply getting the craft reserve points on level up tends to be much more efficient; one of the reasons for multiclassing as an artificer being a poor choice I neglected above.

[Chewychunga]

Doesn't factotum have a caster level because of the SLa he can cast? So 15 lvl allows you to make +5 items
Just use your slA to make the items with rather than the umd check and it's easier
Also if your a kobold and get draconian rite of passage doesn't that give you caster lvl = class level?
And I've never understood the 3x level thing.. Because in book you can make a +10 item or 200k gp before it's epic.. Yet to make that you would then need lvl 30? 10 epic level?

[Gildedragon]

Doesn't factotum have a caster level because of the SLa he can cast? So 15 lvl allows you to make +5 items
Just use your slA to make the items with rather than the umd check and it's easier
Also if your a kobold and get draconian rite of passage doesn't that give you caster lvl = class level?
And I've never understood the 3x level thing.. Because in book you can make a +10 item or 200k gp before it's epic.. Yet to make that you would then need lvl 30? 10 epic level?
+10 price not +10 enhancement bonus.
+X equivalent abilities (that are not enhancement bonuses) have their own CL requirements

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't factotum have a caster level because of the SLa he can cast? So 15 lvl allows you to make +5 items
Just use your slA to make the items with rather than the umd check and it's easier
Also if your a kobold and get draconian rite of passage doesn't that give you caster lvl = class level?

Yes, but then your artificer level doesn't add to those. If you put artificer up front then it's like starting over with your new class, if you put it at the end then you lose most of the advantage of being able to craft, and if you put it in the middle then you'll reck your capability through that part of the game. There's just no good place to put 5 levels of basically nothing but crafting feats. The cheap gear is great but if all you're really after is craft wondrous items just take it for one of your character feats and take a -one- level dip in artificer. There are ways to get XP for crafting that don't involve tearing up your capability.


And I've never understood the 3x level thing.. Because in book you can make a +10 item or 200k gp before it's epic.. Yet to make that you would then need lvl 30? 10 epic level?

It's not universal. Most of the +X to Y bonus items have it listed in their prerequisite sections. The enhancement bonuson weapons, the enhancement bonus on armor, the enhancement to natural armor from an amulet of natural armor, the deflection bonus from a ring of protection, the resistance bonus from a cloak of resistance, and maybe one or two more that I'm forgetting.

Note that CL is only equal to character level on characters that aren't pushing their CL. Actual casters pick feats, items, and class features that push their CL well past their character level. Artificers, in particular, can produce the necessary items to boost their CL and to produce persistent spell effects to do the same.

As for epicness, most of the stuff that has CL = 3X bonus as a prereq' is also capped at how high it can be before you need the appropriate epic craft feat. Note, too, that the +5 of special abilities you put into a weapon or armor beyond the enhancement have separate crafting requirements; they're not limited by the 1/3 CL requirement.

[Chewychunga]

ahh my plan was 1 factotum then 5 arti then 2-15 factotum for everything else in the class.. that way i get the crafting part quick i get the bonus to damage from arti at low levels then ill start building damage with my items / feats at higher levels, my damage is secondary anyways most of the party seems to want to go pure damage so even pure factotum most of my spells are gonna be heals / buffs to keep us alive

[Gildedragon]

ahh my plan was 1 factotum then 5 arti then 2-15 factotum for everything else in the class.. that way i get the crafting part quick i get the bonus to damage from arti at low levels then ill start building damage with my items / feats at higher levels, my damage is secondary anyways most of the party seems to want to go pure damage so even pure factotum most of my spells are gonna be heals / buffs to keep us alive

Stick to 1 of artificer; 15 of factotum is bleh. Stick out for one more level and you have continuous int to ac, three more and you can immitate any class feature.
Get your partymates to pitch in XPs if that worries you. It keeps the whole party level levelwise which effectively makes the XP costs null
Rules for that (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)

[Chewychunga]

Ahh didn't know about thoes rules
How do you suggest I get the feats to make the items? And what about the dedicated wright?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ahh didn't know about thoes rules
How do you suggest I get the feats to make the items? And what about the dedicated wright?

You have a CL, just take the feat when you qualify. Homonculi can be crafted by anyone with craft construct, which requires craft wondrous item and craft arms and armor as prerequisites.

[Gildedragon]

Also remember you can build Effigies with just craft wondrous item. (Unless you're gunning for the dedicated wight. No easy way to replicate one)

Maybe making a portable forge of thautum might be good to save up on feats (it gives craft magic arms and armor)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Also remember you can build Effigies with just craft wondrous item. (Unless you're gunning for the dedicated wight. No easy way to replicate one)

Maybe making a portable forge of thautum might be good to save up on feats (it gives craft magic arms and armor)

My copy of CA says it requires craft construct to create effigies unless you want to take a level in effigy master. Qualifying as a factotum looks a bit dodgy t o me.

Making a dedicated wright is a trivial matter for anyone who has craft construct. The spells required are on the core sorc/wiz list and the materials are well worth the expense. The artificer class feature just bypasses the craft construct feat requirement and adds a HD cap.

[Chewychunga]

How do you suggest I get enough bonus feats in order to take all the crafting abilities ? And still be able to do something else

[Gildedragon]

Do you really want craft construct? If so feats from 3-9 are devoted to that.
Otherwise I'd go 3) Craft Wondrous Item 6) Item Familiar
Build a "forge of thautum"
Also I'd ditch rapid reload for Kn Dev early on
Or get in a level of cloistered Cleric
Luck, Kn Devotion, and Craft/Artifice (get poison or alchemy)/Time/Planning (your pick)

[Yael]

Unless I'm mistaken, University comes from the AEG Book of Feats, it is a [Background] feat that adds +8 skill points at level 1st, and 2 extra skill points every level thereafter. It requires Int 13+, and reduces your starting gold by 100.

I actually thought this feat was useful for Factotum the moment I saw it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you suggest I get enough bonus feats in order to take all the crafting abilities ? And still be able to do something else

Better question; why do you want -all- of the crafting abilities but don't want to roll with a straight artificer?

Generally, you only want craft wondrous item and craft scroll. Only the latter if your DM is stingy with downtime. The exception being if you're going to be a straight-up wizard build, otherwise the character resources necessary to do it well heavily outweigh the benefits and you'll need help to create anything off-list for you.

[Chewychunga]

im wanting the crafting because otherwise we wont have any magic items other than ones we find, there no magic mart and i dont want straight artificer becuase of lack of skill points/ class skills
right now the party is gonna have cleric psion monk and me right now

[Kelb_Panthera]

im wanting the crafting because otherwise we wont have any magic items other than ones we find, there no magic mart and i dont want straight artificer becuase of lack of skill points/ class skills
right now the party is gonna have cleric psion monk and me right now

I won't say skills don't matter but you can ape what's necessary with magical effects, especially as an artificer. Most of the more commonly used skills have +X competence items available for them and the artificer's primary class feature allows them to make these items without the necessary ranks in those skills that would normally be required. It's also probably one of the most obvious and straight-forward options for custom items (DM, allowing).

Class skills aren't nearly the extreme necessity they're portrayed as being. You can do just fine in most regards by maxing cross-class skills and picking up a few cheap boosters.

As for your party makeup, the psion and the cleric probably won't need your help. Common wisdom would also say that there's no saving the monk (not that I totally agree). If you're really that worried about it, why not suggest that the cleric and the psion pick up a few item crafting feats?

The DM refusing to allow magic-item trading in his setting is a tad concerning but it's -possible- that he knows what he's doing.

If it's just the idea of a wal-mart like super-store full of magical gear that bothers him, try showing him this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15451251&postcount=33). It's how I've made sense of the abstraction that is town GP limits and the free availability of most magic items.

[Chewychunga]

i like your ideas on items, basically its not theres no trading its the fact that we have to come across a crafter that can make the items we want and we need to supply materials or hope they have them, the better item or material the rarer it is so some of the cool items people are asking for we will like never find but common magic items are common rare ones are almost a quest per item
potions and stuff can be bought
easier to just craft them myself / for party
cleric cant take any cause they gonna be tank / healer
psion is meh he like to do own thing\
monk is well... monk

[Gildedragon]

Make the forge.
Feats beyond craft wondrous item are unneeded

[Aquillion]

im wanting the crafting because otherwise we wont have any magic items other than ones we find, there no magic mart and i dont want straight artificer becuase of lack of skill points/ class skills
right now the party is gonna have cleric psion monk and me right nowMy advice is to not worry about this too much and to just make the character you want to play. Trust your DM to ensure that the game won't suck regardless of your decisions.

I mean, if you really want to play a crafter, play a crafter; but in my experience, worrying over "the party needs this", outside of very basic things like casting, is usually a mistake.

Besides, clerics, psions, and (if you make one) Factotums can be decent with limited items. The Monk is... well, Monk, as you said; either they have a plan to salvage themselves or they don't, but I don't think you need to worry about serving as a substitute magic item mart for them.

I feel you'll contribute more by focusing on being a good Factotum (at which point, between you, the cleric, and the psion, your party will have decent skills, spells, and combat capability) than by sacrificing some of that effectiveness to produce slightly better items for everyone else, especially since chances are your DM doesn't intend to leave you with literally nothing.

(Part of the problem is that Artificer and Factotum have almost no synergy. You're trying to combine two completely different characters into one because you feel your party needs two things, and that's going to leave you weakened at both. It's not worth it, not unless that combination is what you absolutely have your heart set on playing.)

[Chewychunga]

What would have synergy with a factotum or artificer then? I thought that they would have synergy cause there both int based and the abilities scale with it

[Kelb_Panthera]

What would have synergy with a factotum or artificer then? I thought that they would have synergy cause there both int based and the abilities scale with it

It takes more than sharing a primary stat for classes to synergize.

Neither of these classes synergizes well with much of anything if you want one or the other at the center of your build. You can squeeze in something for a small boost if you're careful but they're both pretty close to their A-game without multiclassing at all.

What is it, exactly, you're trying to achieve with this character? What specific trickery do you want to be able to pull off?

[Chewychunga]

I was hoping to be a true jack of all trades able to do everything passably well but not focused in anything except melee that I don't care about

[Gildedragon]

Artificer 1 and craft wondrous item are enough to get you set on the item crafting side of things
now doing everything isn't quite possible; chamaleon is the closest class for that, but ya gotta be human for that

I'd go Factotum 19, Artificer 1
or
Factotum 15, Artificer 1, Uncanny Trickster 2 (taken after 5th and before 6th level of Factotum), [other class(es)] 3
(Swashbuckler 3, or binder 1 or 3, or swordsage 1-3, or cloistered cleric 1, or kungfu genius monk 2)

[Aquillion]

I was hoping to be a true jack of all trades able to do everything passably well but not focused in anything except melee that I don't care aboutYour best bet for that (if you want to include Factotum) is probably the Factotum 8 / Chameleon 10 / Factotum 2 build. (Using Changeling to qualify for Chameleon.) This build will give you decent magical support when you combine Chameleon partial casting with Cunning Surge, excellent skill coverage, and even the crafting you were looking for originally using the Chameleon floating feat.

I wouldn't worry too much about the skill points and feat you pay to get into Chameleon. The floating feat from Chameleon makes up for it. The spells from Chameleon will more than make up for the skill points you pay, especially since your Factotum levels and high Intelligence will give you ridiculously many skill points anyway.

Or you could just go straight Factotum. It's a perfectly fine class on its own, especially for someone who wants to play a jack of all trades.

[Chewychunga]

what is the advantage to uncanny trickster and why that specific level? swash would be for int to damage? thats melee only isnt it? and no idea what the rest might give me

[Gildedragon]

what is the advantage to uncanny trickster and why that specific level? swash would be for int to damage? thats melee only isnt it? and no idea what the rest might give me
uncanny trickster at that level is because of their Class Features class features:

"At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level."

So when you get your 6th level of factotum, which has nothing happening, you get features of a 7th level factotum (albeit at level 8) but you also got bonus skill tricks, which help for the jack-of-all-trades-ing it, and you get to use skilltricks more often.

Yes swash gives you int to attack with a finessable weapon (and weapon finesse)

Binder gives you access to a number of diverse abilities from scouting to diplomacy to attack

Cleric gets you knowledge devotion and stuff depending on how you domain up...

Monk gets you int to ac and good saves

[Chewychunga]

What about sword sage? Assasians stance maybe? Or?