So Are Favoted Souls OP?

[Garresh]

I believe so, but I've been glancing around online and not seeing much in the way of comments on them being toon strong. I actually was working on a Homebrew and started breaking most core classes as far as I can to see where my balance should lie, but Favored souls are just absurd.

I just want to point out that at level 6 they have access to healing, extra attack, Medium armor, haste, and fireball. All the best buff spells are wizard exclusive (bards don't get haste), and of course with access to metamagic Favored Souls will naturally surpass any other blaster.

If you multiclass a favored Soul into paladin and dual wield, he out damages any martial character easily, due to haste, and can take war caster with his natural con save proficiencies and not care.

From there, you can go 2 more points into fighter and nova harder than anything else I've seen (I got around 170 damage in a round at level 10), or just take a single point in life cleric to shore up your healing.

The thing is, a build like that won't outdo a God wizard of course, but he steps on the toes of other roles by being superior to all roles except skill monkey and God wizard, and if you give up a level or two somewhere along the line you can mostly stay ahead while also picking up expertise. Or you go half elf and you're able to make the rogue feel bad because you can just blow low level slots on enhance ability and already have high charisma.

Thoughts?

[Arkhios]

Fixed the topic for you btw.



In terms of trying to figure out if one class is balanced or not you really shouldn't even consider any "dips" into another class to find that out.

However the case, Favored Soul is not official class/sub-class. Nothing in UA is "official" in the way they are in books or online supplementaries.
It's more of a suggestion as how you could make a new option for an existing class; which it's doing pretty poorly, as many have pointed out: it really is very strong. Not only because you get access to 10 more spells and have all of them prepared at all times provided you have high enough level, but you also have up to medium armor and shield proficiency and even extra attack. Topped with metamagic options. However, your current example only takes into account Life domain really, like it was the only option. It's obviously the best or one of the best, but how about the other domains? How would they fare in the long run?

[The Zoat]

Favored Soul is pretty unfair to the other sorcerous origins at least, draconic and wild can't hold a candle.

[Garresh]

Fair enough on the dip point I suppose. But I do try to not consider a class in a vacuum. Without dips it still threatens fighters clerics and other arcanes, though skill monkeys are fine. Pure life clerics would win out though without dips, so that falls in line mostly. But I'm still feeling the haste + extra attack is too strong at level 6. A bard can get it at 10, but by that point it's much more reasonable.

I would think with a removal of extra attack favored Soul would mostly fall into balance.

As for other cleric domains, I focused on life because many of the other domains arent as iconic. The other spells are either ready learned. Y a sorcerer, on the wizard list so they're very close, or provide utility or powers more in line with what arcane casters do.

[djreynolds]

How about not allowing multiclassing? That would help

[DracoKnight]

A bard can get it at 10

Lore Bard nabs it at level 6. Additional Magical Secrets. It's great. :smallbiggrin:

[Arkhios]

Lore Bard nabs it at level 6. Additional Magical Secrets. It's great. :smallbiggrin:

Lore bards don't nab extra attack + haste at level 6. I believe that was the point in it.

[djreynolds]

Some classes couldn't multiclass back in the day, this would be reasonable. Still a very powerful archetype just 20 levels.

How favored are you, if you multiclass?

[hymer]

Is Haste-ing the Favoted Soul the best use of that spell? Won't there tend to be people in the party who can make more of an additional attack?

[PoeticDwarf]

As most UA. Way too strong

[Garresh]

Lore bards don't nab extra attack + haste at level 6. I believe that was the point in it.

This is correct.


Is Haste-ing the Favoted Soul the best use of that spell? Won't there tend to be people in the party who can make more of an additional attack?

The best use? Probably not. But given that sneak attack is once per turn and an average party will only have one melee character who can use it optimally. Besides, they can twin it anyways.

The discussion was more from the perspective of them out classing other classes at their roles.

[Kryx]

Favored Soul is pretty unfair to the other sorcerous origins at least, draconic and wild can't hold a candle.
No need to start this debate as it raged back when it was first released, but those other subclasses should definitely have 10 additional spells known from a set list. I compare this to other classes in the sorcerer link in my sig.

TL;DR: Favored Soul stands out from the other Sorcerer classes because they are weaker than other classes. I would recommend all home games buff the other Sorcerer archetypes as stated in that thread.

[The Zoat]

Wouldn't it be better just to limit the Favored Souls' spells from the regular list? How many extra spells can you give for the Wild and Dragon, most of their thematic spells are already available to them, and it would erode the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer if they got too many slots.

[Kryx]

Wouldn't it be better just to limit the Favored Souls' spells from the regular list? How many extra spells can you give for the Wild and Dragon, most of their thematic spells are already available to them, and it would erode the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer if they got too many slots.
I would recommend you read the thread I mentioned. Sorcerous Origin Bonus Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerous-Origin-Bonus-Spells). Sorcerers actually have access to an incredibly small amount of spells (significantly less than half casters, barely more than 1/3 casters).

There were many threads about this a long time ago. I made several recommendations which were not overpowering that were well received (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547).

[The Zoat]

Adding in a few extra spells is a very fair solution, which I think basically fixes the problem. Good on you Kryx.

[Garresh]

While it doesn't address the fact that favored souls outdo other roles, those spell lists for draconian sorcs are really nice. Well done. I might forward that to some DMS I know.

[Garresh]

@Kryx did you do one for wild? I skimmed the sorc list but I'm at work and can't go digging right now.

[Giant2005]

UA stuff tends to be considerably more powerful than the canon stuff, but Favored Soul isn't one of them.
Favored Souls aren't even as powerful as Bladesingers.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's really the extra spells that make it stand out. If you just have the spells added to their CLASS list, it drops down to be on part with the other origins.

[SharkForce]

While it doesn't address the fact that favored souls outdo other roles, those spell lists for draconian sorcs are really nice. Well done. I might forward that to some DMS I know.

largely speaking, they don't outdo other roles.

extra attack + haste is nice and all, but they aren't adding anything else to it. they have no riders (no rage damage bonus, no improved divine smite, no battlemaster maneuvers or champion crit chance, etc). they don't have the extra ASIs to afford the feats as easily as a fighter can, they don't have the extra HP to survive on the front line so easily, they risk losing their turn every single time they take any damage, they don't have heavy armour proficiency so they suffer from low dex more than a typical melee (and if they go dex-focused they don't have the powerful melee feats or the melee weapon cantrips), they don't get a fighting style, and so on. if they go ranged, they are getting only 3 basic ranged attacks with haste up; 3d8 + 15 at most, or 4d6 +20 with a hand crossbow. that's definitely better than a fire bolt (but probably not better than twinned firebolt, which isn't terribly expensive, let alone a twinned firebolt + a quickened firebolt), but if that's replacing your fighter, then it's because your fighter is doing something screwy.

the favoured soul is *definitely* stronger than the official PHB sorcerer subclasses, because those subclasses suffer from a crippling spell list and number of spells known. but if they're out-meleeing your fighter, well, that's on your fighter.

(also, haste on a rogue is *amazing* as a DPR increase; the rogue can use the haste action to make an attack, do an off-hand or hand crossbow attack with their bonus action if needed (or use cunning action), and then use their regular action to ready an attack on someone else's turn... which gets them a second sneak attack. it's once per turn, not once per round).

[jas61292]

The embarrassing thing about Favoured Soul is that the article it was in was about making new archetypes, and it explicitly said, for balance reasons, DO NOT give sorcerers more spells. And then of course they go and give sorcerers more spells.

Sorcerers are balanced around not having many spells. Is a Favored Soul going to break your game? Probably not. But is it balanced compared to other sorcerers? Not even close. There is a good reason the storm sorcerer, which initially was presented with a similar amount of extra spells, ended up without such a feature in it's official release. It's simply not balanced game design.

[Gtdead]

Favored soul is more than viable, but not overpowered. I think I can create better gishes than a straight up favored soul. And as a multiclass option I generally prefer draconic sorcerer over favored soul.

I think that scag cantrips really limit his features, mainly the extra attack. By lvl 11 scag cantrips do the same damage as an extra attack with a single handed weapon, and draconic sorcerer gets to add his cha to this so essentially he outdamages him. Extra armor proficiencies are nice but draconic already has his passive mage armor.

Extra spells are nice, but then again, most of the important effects are concentration, and sorcerer already has powerful concentration spells (polymorphs, invisbilities, hastes).

[Kryx]

@Kryx did you do one for wild? I skimmed the sorc list but I'm at work and can't go digging right now.
Wild Sorc was on the thread I linked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerous-Origin-Bonus-Spells).

[Garresh]

UA stuff tends to be considerably more powerful than the canon stuff, but Favored Soul isn't one of them.
Favored Souls aren't even as powerful as Bladesingers.

Not sure I agree to that. Bladesingers are stupidly powerrul, but for gish style by sorcerer quicken is a big deal, as are the other metamagic at their disposal.

I just did a thought experiment for a player killer build. A favored Soul with 2 levels in paladin and 2 levels in fighter at level 10 could quicken a hold person then action surge into an auto critical on 4 Greatsword suites for 32d8 + 16d6 +16 (I'm leaving a buffer because of lack of attribute gain and possible feats). That's not counting great weapon specialization, and it stI'll comes out to 214 damage or so. Plus hold person cast at higher levels can hit multiple targets.

For a less selfish favored soul, they can simply quick cast haste at the start of a fight and get 3 Greatsword attacks every round at will, no multiclaasing or setup time required.

Next round they can full attack like a fighter except better while casually tossing scorching rays or fireballs, or heals.

The 2 dip build is an extreme case (though it can get around 170 burst without hold spell abuse), but just using combinations of metamagic, sorcerer spells, and an extra attack puts them way ahead of a fighter for most of the mid levels. That's a problem. I haven't looked at bladesinger in depth, but I feel you're right it's more of the same. The only reason bards aren't OP with their extra attack is how few good self-buffs they have. Their spell list is limited in all the right places, which isnt the case with bladesingers or favored souls.

[Garresh]

@Kryx
Sweet. Lunchtime reading. Thanks.

[Garresh]

Favored soul is more than viable, but not overpowered. I think I can create better gishes than a straight up favored soul. And as a multiclass option I generally prefer draconic sorcerer over favored soul.

I think that scag cantrips really limit his features, mainly the extra attack. By lvl 11 scag cantrips do the same damage as an extra attack with a single handed weapon, and draconic sorcerer gets to add his cha to this so essentially he outdamages him. Extra armor proficiencies are nice but draconic already has his passive mage armor.

Extra spells are nice, but then again, most of the important effects are concentration, and sorcerer already has powerful concentration spells (polymorphs, invisbilities, hastes).

Any idea what build you'd run? I'm rather curious how it would stack up against other options you might have.

[SharkForce]

Not sure I agree to that. Bladesingers are stupidly powerrul, but for gish style by sorcerer quicken is a big deal, as are the other metamagic at their disposal.

I just did a thought experiment for a player killer build. A favored Soul with 2 levels in paladin and 2 levels in fighter at level 10 could quicken a hold person then action surge into an auto critical on 4 Greatsword suites for 32d8 + 16d6 +16 (I'm leaving a buffer because of lack of attribute gain and possible feats). That's not counting great weapon specialization, and it stI'll comes out to 214 damage or so. Plus hold person cast at higher levels can hit multiple targets.

For a less selfish favored soul, they can simply quick cast haste at the start of a fight and get 3 Greatsword attacks every round at will, no multiclaasing or setup time required.

Next round they can full attack like a fighter except better while casually tossing scorching rays or fireballs, or heals.

The 2 dip build is an extreme case (though it can get around 170 burst without hold spell abuse), but just using combinations of metamagic, sorcerer spells, and an extra attack puts them way ahead of a fighter for most of the mid levels. That's a problem. I haven't looked at bladesinger in depth, but I feel you're right it's more of the same. The only reason bards aren't OP with their extra attack is how few good self-buffs they have. Their spell list is limited in all the right places, which isnt the case with bladesingers or favored souls.

ummm... a 6 sorcer/2 paladin/2 fighter has precisely one level 4 slot. so no, you aren't smiting 4 times for 32d8 damage. if you have the strength to do respectable damage with a greatsword, you are probably severely lacking in either constitution or charisma, which means you either probably die really quickly, or you don't have a good chance of landing hold person on anything significant (particularly since quickening it means you can't heighten it). you certainly don't have the sorcery points to sustainably quicken spells every round of combat in a day, nor the spell slots.

this character would blow everything on being pretty scary for a single encounter, and is then sitting on 2 attacks per melee with extreme MADness, and no further support. well, ok, they'll get back their action surge with a short rest, i guess. everything else they pretty much blew in a few rounds of combat.

now, don't get me wrong, the ability to nova is very helpful. but it's hardly unique to a sorcerer. a single-classed paladin would also have a very scary nova, higher HP, a save bonus aura that is absurd, far more use of lay on hands, and is one level away from getting improved divine smite. plus they also have level 3 spells, which means if they're vengeance they have haste anyways.

likewise, a level 10 fighter is looking pretty impressive too, and in one more level they get their third attack. they only need 2 attributes, and if they went battlemaster, their nova is pretty nasty as well.

[Spacehamster]

Stronger then the other sorc sub classes aye, op prob not. :)

[Garresh]

ummm... a 6 sorcer/2 paladin/2 fighter has precisely one level 4 slot. so no, you aren't smiting 4 times for 32d8 damage. if you have the strength to do respectable damage with a greatsword, you are probably severely lacking in either constitution or charisma, which means you either probably die really quickly, or you don't have a good chance of landing hold person on anything significant (particularly since quickening it means you can't heighten it). you certainly don't have the sorcery points to sustainably quicken spells every round of combat in a day, nor the spell slots.

this character would blow everything on being pretty scary for a single encounter, and is then sitting on 2 attacks per melee with extreme MADness, and no further support. well, ok, they'll get back their action surge with a short rest, i guess. everything else they pretty much blew in a few rounds of combat.

now, don't get me wrong, the ability to nova is very helpful. but it's hardly unique to a sorcerer. a single-classed paladin would also have a very scary nova, higher HP, a save bonus aura that is absurd, far more use of lay on hands, and is one level away from getting improved divine smite. plus they also have level 3 spells, which means if they're vengeance they have haste anyways.

likewise, a level 10 fighter is looking pretty impressive too, and in one more level they get their third attack. they only need 2 attributes, and if they went battlemaster, their nova is pretty nasty as well.

4th slot for 5d8.
3 3rds at 4d8 each.
17d8. If you land hold person, that's 34d8. My original math was for using a higher level slot to multi paralyze.

Now the Nova is scary, but they can win in sustained damage too. Again, sorcs have con as a save, so you can run haste and get 3 attacks every round. You can also quicken scag cantrips for extra attacks so you go for 4 Greatsword attacks a round. More to the point, you can opt not to cast anything and just melee with 3 attacks. That's perfectly reasonable, and still pretty good. And you can quicken heals, crowd control, or anything needed without wasting any time at all. If you manage your slots you can keep going for a whike, or hang back and use those slots for heals and cc. It's flexible. It's powerful when it needs to be, and its sustained damage is still 6d6+3xstr.

[Giant2005]

but just using combinations of metamagic, sorcerer spells, and an extra attack puts them way ahead of a fighter for most of the mid levels.

The combinations you speak of simply aren't feasible. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone cast Haste on me and then placed my life in serious risk by wading into the front lines where the loss of concentration is near guaranteed. I would think they were mad for inflicting that ailment upon themselves.
The favored Soul has literally nothing going for it as a gish - all it has is Extra Attack, and Extra Attack alone is far from enough to keep your damage relevant. There is a point in every Favored Soul's life where they have to decide to hang up the sword and go back to casting Cantrps like any other caster. With that in mind, Extra Attack is a wasted ability which helps serve mitigate the class's other strengths.
These multiclass combinations you speak of have very little to do with the Favored Soul. In fact, the Favored Soul contributes literally nothing that any other Sorcerer wouldn't bring to the table. The strength you speak of is of a Paladin going Nova, further enhanced by a Fighter's Action Surge. It is impressive but does not need stated - the value of Action Surge and Smite is well known with respect to nova damage and does not need further reinforcement.

[Garresh]

The combinations you speak of simply aren't feasible. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone cast Haste on me and then placed my life in serious risk by wading into the front lines where the loss of concentration is near guaranteed. I would think they were mad for inflicting that ailment upon themselves.
The favored Soul has literally nothing going for it as a gish - all it has is Extra Attack, and Extra Attack alone is far from enough to keep your damage relevant. There is a point in every Favored Soul's life where they have to decide to hang up the sword and go back to casting Cantrps like any other caster. With that in mind, Extra Attack is a wasted ability which helps serve mitigate the class's other strengths.
These multiclass combinations you speak of have very little to do with the Favored Soul. In fact, the Favored Soul contributes literally nothing that any other Sorcerer wouldn't bring to the table. The strength you speak of is of a Paladin going Nova, further enhanced by a Fighter's Action Surge. It is impressive but does not need stated - the value of Action Surge and Smite is well known with respect to nova damage and does not need further reinforcement.
Could you point out some more impressive gish builds around level 10? Trying to see points of comparison.

Also it's the combination of quicken haste and full sorc spell progression that makes me worry about it. But anyways I'd like to see some examples of good mid level gish builds then.

[Gtdead]

One is Paladin 2/ Drac Sorcerer X. Since we are talking about UA, we can grab a level of undying light warlock too sometime later, getting extra CHA mod to fire damage, sacred flame+cha for all the fire immune enemies.

Full armor and weapons, fighting style (defense is best imo), amazing GFB (+5 str +8 cha with lock), smite for nova, access to bless (which is probably the best thing you can grab from cleric), resistance to fire (from affinity), and he becomes near indestructible with shield+blur at 21 AC without any magic items. Can greatly support a tanking playstyle with twinned lures for control.

Vhuman for warcaster+resilient con, 3 save proficiencies

It's probably one of my favorite melee builds in 5e.

It also comes online pretty fast.

Swapping favored soul loses me the resistance and +cha to damage just to get an extra attack that gets obsolete with gfb.

[SharkForce]

4th slot for 5d8.
3 3rds at 4d8 each.
17d8. If you land hold person, that's 34d8. My original math was for using a higher level slot to multi paralyze.

Now the Nova is scary, but they can win in sustained damage too. Again, sorcs have con as a save, so you can run haste and get 3 attacks every round. You can also quicken scag cantrips for extra attacks so you go for 4 Greatsword attacks a round. More to the point, you can opt not to cast anything and just melee with 3 attacks. That's perfectly reasonable, and still pretty good. And you can quicken heals, crowd control, or anything needed without wasting any time at all. If you manage your slots you can keep going for a whike, or hang back and use those slots for heals and cc. It's flexible. It's powerful when it needs to be, and its sustained damage is still 6d6+3xstr.

uh-huh. you're going to win in sustained damage by running haste because apparently having con as a proficient save means you'll never ever fail the save, lose your next action, and die like an idiot on the front line. got it.

when you need 3 or 4 attributes at a high value, no you are not landing your crowd control reliably. or, if you are, you aren't keeping up in DPR and also not worried about your con saves, because proficient or not, your con attribute probably sucks at that point if your cha and str are good enough. you do not have unlimited attributes. if you max one thing, you do it at the expense of something else.

you don't have the resources to sustain a bunch of damage *and* quicken a bunch of spells all over the place. your nova means you have nothing left in the tank for anything else, and your sustained damage that is about equal to a conventional melee class means that you have no nova left (note: the conventional melee classes *will* have nova available while keeping that sustained damage).

you get precisely *3* quickened cantrips in a day before you have to start blowing your regular spell slots on recharging your SP as well.

the simple fact is that with this build, you will have either nova or sustained DPR, but not plausibly both, and if you opt to have either of those things, you probably have nothing left for the rest of the tricks you're expecting your sorcerer to do... while a conventional melee character would have the sustained DPR no problem, and can also nova in the same day, and may even still have some interesting tricks left over (a paladin, for example, has their channel divinity and lay on hands, a few subclass abilities, and the most powerful saving throw buff in the game as an aura). also, those other classes are, as i said, right on the brink of adding something new to their sustained (and nova) damage at level 11. you... well, you're about to get a second level 4 slot or something. enjoy, i guess.

[RickAllison]

The combinations you speak of simply aren't feasible. I'd be pretty annoyed if someone cast Haste on me and then placed my life in serious risk by wading into the front lines where the loss of concentration is near guaranteed. I would think they were mad for inflicting that ailment upon themselves.
The favored Soul has literally nothing going for it as a gish - all it has is Extra Attack, and Extra Attack alone is far from enough to keep your damage relevant. There is a point in every Favored Soul's life where they have to decide to hang up the sword and go back to casting Cantrps like any other caster. With that in mind, Extra Attack is a wasted ability which helps serve mitigate the class's other strengths.
These multiclass combinations you speak of have very little to do with the Favored Soul. In fact, the Favored Soul contributes literally nothing that any other Sorcerer wouldn't bring to the table. The strength you speak of is of a Paladin going Nova, further enhanced by a Fighter's Action Surge. It is impressive but does not need stated - the value of Action Surge and Smite is well known with respect to nova damage and does not need further reinforcement.

Shove prone and Grapple!!!

[Gtdead]

Any gish build that isn't extremely heavy on defenses is going to get shafted once he goes into melee. If favored souls think that they can pop spirit guardians and do amazing aoe for example, they will become cat food. That's why bladesinger is a better class overall. Because if he wants to avoid damage, he can do so.

[Garresh]

One is Paladin 2/ Drac Sorcerer X. Since we are talking about UA, we can grab a level of undying light warlock too sometime later, getting extra CHA mod to fire damage, sacred flame+cha for all the fire immune enemies.

Full armor and weapons, fighting style (defense is best imo), amazing GFB (+5 str +8 cha with lock), smite for nova, access to bless (which is probably the best thing you can grab from cleric), resistance to fire (from affinity), and he becomes near indestructible with shield+blur at 21 AC without any magic items. Can greatly support a tanking playstyle with twinned lures for control.

Vhuman for warcaster+resilient con, 3 save proficiencies

It's probably one of my favorite melee builds in 5e.

It also comes online pretty fast.

Swapping favored soul loses me the resistance and +cha to damage just to get an extra attack that gets obsolete with gfb.
Perfect. I'll take a look at this later tonight. I sincerely hope you guys are right about favored soul. Thanks.

[MrFahrenheit]

I ripped the favored soul out of the sorcerer lineup and pasted it into warlock. Made more thematic sense to me, plus the depending on your patron (now deity) for spells makes more sense here. Still haven't seen one in play yet, though

[Spacehamster]

Any gish build that isn't extremely heavy on defenses is going to get shafted once he goes into melee. If favored souls think that they can pop spirit guardians and do amazing aoe for example, they will become cat food. That's why bladesinger is a better class overall. Because if he wants to avoid damage, he can do so.

slap thoughness feat on favored soul and he will do allright hp-wise at least. :)

[Giant2005]

Could you point out some more impressive gish builds around level 10? Trying to see points of comparison.

Level 10 is a very unfortunate level - all classes get a very powerful DPR-increasing ability at level 11 (all pure classes that is). At level 11, virtually everything will beat your Favored Soul multiclass.
As for the unfortunate level 10, a pure, variant human Cleric with Magic Initiate (Booming Blade) would do the job. With just two spell slots he could pull 14d8+strmod+wismod DPR, more if he gave up his shield or if the target was stupid enough to move. He could also chuck a Channel Divinity in there for more damage if he really wanted to blow some resources.

[Theodoxus]

One is Paladin 2/ Drac Sorcerer X. Since we are talking about UA, we can grab a level of undying light warlock too sometime later, getting extra CHA mod to fire damage, sacred flame+cha for all the fire immune enemies.

Full armor and weapons, fighting style (defense is best imo), amazing GFB (+5 str +8 cha with lock), smite for nova, access to bless (which is probably the best thing you can grab from cleric), resistance to fire (from affinity), and he becomes near indestructible with shield+blur at 21 AC without any magic items. Can greatly support a tanking playstyle with twinned lures for control.

Vhuman for warcaster+resilient con, 3 save proficiencies

It's probably one of my favorite melee builds in 5e.

It also comes online pretty fast.

Swapping favored soul loses me the resistance and +cha to damage just to get an extra attack that gets obsolete with gfb.

Can definitely contest to this. I have a player who's OoA//Wild Sorc and he's a beast. Amazing durability on top of pretty decent damage (though he is out DPR'd by others in the party, that's mostly because he's ok with that and doesn't want to step on their toes. But when he pulled out all the stops after a near TPK, all jaws were on the floor about his Yoda-esque performance of wiping the floor with the baddies.

If I were at all interested in gishes - this is the gish I'd emulate.

[Gtdead]

Can definitely contest to this. I have a player who's OoA//Wild Sorc and he's a beast. Amazing durability on top of pretty decent damage (though he is out DPR'd by others in the party, that's mostly because he's ok with that and doesn't want to step on their toes. But when he pulled out all the stops after a near TPK, all jaws were on the floor about his Yoda-esque performance of wiping the floor with the baddies.

If I were at all interested in gishes - this is the gish I'd emulate.

Any paladin/sorc combination is a potent defensive build. I prefer the 2 paladin because I can still get lvl 9 spell slots. I agree though, OotA+Wild sorc is way better defensively. Better saves, advantage generation, bend luck, less damage from spells. Amazing combo.

I like offense oriented builds more though.

[MrStabby]

Well sorcerers are pretty powerful anyway, but most of their power comes from non damaging spells. Such an augmented class, with access to so many more spells as well as being able to conserve more spells for sorcery points by productively using melee attacks is just a little bit over the top - especially at mid-levels.

[Garresh]

Level 10 is a very unfortunate level - all classes get a very powerful DPR-increasing ability at level 11 (all pure classes that is). At level 11, virtually everything will beat your Favored Soul multiclass.
As for the unfortunate level 10, a pure, variant human Cleric with Magic Initiate (Booming Blade) would do the job. With just two spell slots he could pull 14d8+strmod+wismod DPR, more if he gave up his shield or if the target was stupid enough to move. He could also chuck a Channel Divinity in there for more damage if he really wanted to blow some resources.

I'm not seeing how the combo works. Could you explain where all that damage is coming from?

@Everybody else, I'm sold on the pally Drac sorc build. I guess nova isn't everything when you can pull those kind of sustained numbers and CC. Very nice build!

[Gtdead]

I'm assuming he counts spirit guardians double. One for the first time the enemy enters the range (by moving towards the enemy), and one tick because he starts his turn in range.

1d8 + str weapon
1d8 + wis spiritual weapon
5d8 spirit guardians (upcast as a lvl 5 spell)
1d8 divine strike
1d8 booming blade

So it can get up to 14d8+str+wis, an extra 2d8+AoO if the target moves.

You can increase this if you upcast spiritual weapon (not really worth it), and add a possible wrath of the storm for an extra 2d8 to someone that hits you.

On another note, Death Cleric is even more amazing at that. Can do almost all these and add this channel divinity 2 times/short rest. At lvl 10 it's 25 dmg per CD, unavoidable.

[EvilAnagram]

I personally disallow them as they currently exist. At some levels, a Favored Soul has double the available spells of any other Sorcerer.

[DizzyWood]

What do you think about only allowing them light armor and moving the extra attack up a few levels. That should really help balance things. You could maybe reduce the number of sorcery points but that seems drastic.

[EvilestWeevil]

Any new sorcerer bloodlines will be more powerful than draconic and wild. It seems they found the power sweet spot with storm. If anything they need another pass at draconic and wild. As far as the favored soul, its cool and thematic. But it is also very potent depending on the domain chosen. I don't think that it is OP though. Powergaming in 5e takes effort, and way too much theorycrafting and undoubtedly bending the rules, or outright breaking logic to achieve. Builds like the paladin/warlock come to mind.

[EvilAnagram]

Here's the thing, increasing the number of spells known for a sorcerer is fundamentally broken. That's simply the main balancing force for the class. Any adjustment of the Favored Soul has to remove that feature first and foremost, then find something with which to replace it.

[Kryx]

At some levels, a Favored Soul has double the available spells of any other Sorcerer.
And at some levels Paladin can prepare (ie: change every day as needed) 66% more spells than a Sorcerer can learn (never changeable).

It only looks powerful because the default Sorcerer is lacking in key areas.

[EvilAnagram]

And at some levels Paladin can prepare (ie: change every day as needed) 66% more spells than a Sorcerer can learn (never changeable).

It only looks powerful because the default Sorcerer is lacking in key areas.

The default sorcerer works extremely well thanks to metamagic. The lack of spells known is a simple balancing factor for a powerful caster. The Favored Soul throws out that balance.

[Arkhios]

Here's the thing, increasing the number of spells known for a sorcerer is fundamentally broken. That's simply the main balancing force for the class. Any adjustment of the Favored Soul has to remove that feature first and foremost, then find something with which to replace it.

I agree with this. If Favored Soul were to treat the domain spells like Warlocks treat their Patron spells, I would be a lot more happy with them having access to those.

Secondly, I'm not worried for Favored Souls having proficiency with light and medium armor, and shields, along with simple weapons. Removing Extra Attack in lieu of getting perhaps something similar to War domain bonus attack would perhaps be more balanced. A limited extra attack with oh so precious Bonus Attack would be a lot more balanced than simply getting Extra Attack. Honestly, I wouldn't worry if they lost it altogether.

[Garresh]

I'm assuming he counts spirit guardians double. One for the first time the enemy enters the range (by moving towards the enemy), and one tick because he starts his turn in range.

1d8 + str weapon
1d8 + wis spiritual weapon
5d8 spirit guardians (upcast as a lvl 5 spell)
1d8 divine strike
1d8 booming blade

So it can get up to 14d8+str+wis, an extra 2d8+AoO if the target moves.

You can increase this if you upcast spiritual weapon (not really worth it), and add a possible wrath of the storm for an extra 2d8 to someone that hits you.

On another note, Death Cleric is even more amazing at that. Can do almost all these and add this channel divinity 2 times/short rest. At lvl 10 it's 25 dmg per CD, unavoidable.

Thanks again. The takeaway I'm feeling on all of this is favored souls are mostly fine, but for a few levels have some really absurd nova potential which even building nova with those other builds it has like a 33% lead. But the costs of such a build are high. In a more well rounded conventional build the tradeoffs are pretty mediocre, especially since you can extra attack SCAG cantrips. Overall, good to keep in mind.

The additional spells known are strong, but tbh I dipped cleric on a wild sorc I have who is a support and buffer I have in a game I'm currently in, and when I look at favored soul as compared to that it's not great. I get the domain bonuses, favored soul gets the spells. Strong, but not that strong. I prefer my own build due to bless + bend luck for +2d4 to key rolls for my allies, which stacks with inspiration.


So uh, overall, declaring it balanced not horrible like that one guy earlier said, and its not like the uber Nova build I posted can't just scale back and still be useful as a sorcerer or gish, since it's going to be in the same ballpark of ac as that awesome Drac pally build. But yeah. Very illuminating. Thanks for the info.

[Kryx]

The default sorcerer works extremely well thanks to metamagic.
The default Sorcerer works pretty well, but is significantly behind in many metrics. This has been discussed at length so no need to debate it further.

If you think Sorcerers are slightly behind the curve then implement my suggest houserules. If not, then don't. Simple. :)

[EvilAnagram]

The default Sorcerer works pretty well, but is significantly behind in many metrics. This has been discussed at length so no need to debate it further.

If you think Sorcerers are slightly behind the curve then implement my suggest houserules. If not, then don't. Simple. :)

I mean, this is a thread debating power levels of sorcerers, so this is probably the best place to discuss it. Personally, I don't see any reason why they need a boost. They cast what spells they know better than just about anyone else. Hell, even my Tempest Cleric isn't quite as good with lightning and thunder spells as a Storm Sorcerer.

[Kryx]

Because it has already been discussed in the threads I've linked:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerous-Origin-Bonus-Spells
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547
And another: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387885-Sorcerer-Balance-(Buffs)

I don't have the desire to debate it. The arguments have been laid out by myself and others time and again. If you don't see it then continue to enjoy the game as you please.

[EvilAnagram]

If you're not interested in discussing the power levels of a Sorcerer, why are you participating in a thread about the relative power level of a Sorcerer Archetype?

I mean, if I showed up to a political debate and said, " I don't see why we have to talk about this, it's been discussed to death," people would just wonder why I showed up to this debate. If you don't think there's anything left to discuss, just don't step into the discussion.

[Kryx]

I have posted here for the benefit of players. So they can read the debate that has occurred and the result of those debates and make up their own mind.
If you wish to counter the points in those threads you're welcome to.

D&D forums have a trend of debate for no reason. My purpose of posting here is not to endlessly debate, but to gain insight myself and provide value to others.

[EvilAnagram]

You seem to be operating under some odd assumptions. First, you seem to think that the threads in which you have already participated are somehow definitive. They are not. As evidence for this assertion, I present a thread full of people discussing the Sorcerer in which you are the only participant who considers those threads to encompass all that need be said on the subject.

Second, you seem to think that we should confine Sorcerer discussion to those threads, but the only person who seems to hold them in such esteem is you. To everyone else, the meta has evolved and so must discussion. Besides, thread necromancy is at the very least frowned upon, though I think it's actually against the rules here.

In short, I can only feel complete wonder that you seem to believe that discussion on this topic is over because you liked a couple threads. Clearly, people are interested in discussing this. Since people have played the Sorcerer much more since those threads were relevant, the meta has evolved. You can participate in the discussion, or you can sit down content that you have already addressed everything that needs addressing, but I don't think butting in to tell people the discussion is over when it clearly is not counts as sharing insight.

[SharkForce]

You seem to be operating under some odd assumptions. First, you seem to think that the threads in which you have already participated are somehow definitive. They are not. As evidence for this assertion, I present a thread full of people discussing the Sorcerer in which you are the only participant who considers those threads to encompass all that need be said on the subject.

Second, you seem to think that we should confine Sorcerer discussion to those threads, but the only person who seems to hold them in such esteem is you. To everyone else, the meta has evolved and so must discussion. Besides, thread necromancy is at the very least frowned upon, though I think it's actually against the rules here.

In short, I can only feel complete wonder that you seem to believe that discussion on this topic is over because you liked a couple threads. Clearly, people are interested in discussing this. Since people have played the Sorcerer much more since those threads were relevant, the meta has evolved. You can participate in the discussion, or you can sit down content that you have already addressed everything that needs addressing, but I don't think butting in to tell people the discussion is over when it clearly is not counts as sharing insight.

actually, he is far from the only person who said it wasn't broken overall, but was stronger than the official sorcerer archetypes.

here's my perspective:

in 3.x sorcerers had more spells per day than wizards and spontaneous casting in exchange for wizards getting more feats, infinite spells known (but prepared casting), less spells per day, and bonus feats. also, the sorcerer had almost exactly the same spell list (there were a handful of spells that literally did nothing for sorcerers that were not on it).

wizards were highest tier. sorcerers were at least a full tier lower, possibly more depending on who you ask.

now, here comes 5th edition, where sorcerers *don't* get more spells per day, and *everyone* gets spontaneous casting of a prepared list. wizards don't get more feats any more, but the great majority of their class and subclass features are stronger than a sorcerer, with the exception of metamagic.

now, metamagic is really good. but is it so good that you can take away all the advantages sorcerers had, let wizards keep all their old advantages, and somehow have sorcerers actually go up to being just as good as wizards when the wizard generally has a better spell list, more spells known, more spells prepared at any given time, and class features that add up to be at least as interesting in general as the sorcerer's? i mean, back in the day, even with the advantages that sorcerers had, wizards were a full tier above. partly that had to do with spells in general being more powerful in 3.x, and certainly 5e doesn't have the sheer volume of broken spells that 3.x had just in the PHB. but they've lost a lot of relative ground.

metamagic is good, but it isn't so good that you need to take away all of their old advantages (and then some), give them to the class that was originally more powerful, and then make sure that class still has strong and interesting class features that are probably combined worth about as much as the sorcerer class features.

sorcerers are not by any means worthless. metamagic is a very nice ability. but they're well below several other classes. there's quite a bit of room to grow before any subclass could possibly make them OP.

the other thing i like about adding spells, is that quite frankly, the subclasses of sorcerer don't feel very different. their subclass features tend to be quite lackluster. giving a set list of thematic spells helps with that quite a bit. when you look at different types of cleric, or different types of wizard, subclass choice makes a big difference in how you play the character. with sorcerers, unless the DM is *constantly* giving you wild magic surges, there really isn't a huge difference in how you play a draconic sorcerer vs a wild magic sorcerer (and even then, you still play the character the same, just there's a chance for something wacky to happen when you do the same things when you're a wild magic sorcerer). when you play a knowledge cleric, you get tools for finding things out or to reflect your greater knowledge of things. when you play a war cleric, you get tools to help you fight like a warrior, you're always ready for a brawl. a life cleric gets extra value from healing spells. and so on. meanwhile, a wild magic sorcerer has no more incentive to cast a "chaotic" spell like prismatic spray than a draconic sorcerer. when you make a conjurer, you are incentivized to conjure things, and are given extra tools to make you really *feel* like a master of conjuration magic. when you are a dragon sorcerer... well, you have scales that are mechanically indistinguishable from mage armour, for the most part, and you do a tiny bit of extra damage with spells of a certain element, i guess. it isn't nothing. but it isn't much of something either.

giving draconic sorcerers spells that make them feel like a dragon, and wild magic sorcerers feel more wild, helps make them not just more powerful (which, again, is not a problem, they're definitely not at the top of the caster heap by any means), but more distinct.

[Garresh]

Good Points
I don't particularly disagree, but you do have to admit that with Sorcs some degree of caution is wise. With 5e action economy and bounded accuracy, sorcerer have a lot of ways to break free of those limitations, albeit in only specific ways. Stuff like Twin concentration (with a good save. Yes I know I overestimate this!) is fantastic for buff and support roles. My initial assumption of OP favored souls was due in part to me using them to crank the party in a game I'm in with a wild sorc up to 11, alongside a cleric dip. When I saw the extra attack it made me pretty concerned. But back on point, sorcerers are a great class for multiclassing. Metamagic on buffs or dips makes them really strong and gives them something other classes can't do. Even if wizard is stronger overall (it is), Im not sure I feel metamagic can just be brushed outside out of hand.

All that being said, yeah you're right. Lol

[Theodoxus]

I don't understand placing any value in the extra attack on the FS. What build could possibly use it? The SCAG cantrips are in direct contention with an extra attack. Casting spells are almost always better than a weapon attack - what Sorc is ever going to emphasize STR or DEX over CHA? Your 'to hit' with spells will always be higher than a weapon attack... which means your cantrips (Firebolt, at the very least) will hit as hard (if not harder) at every possible level than a sword or bow attack.

Yeah, you don't get your CHA bonus to damage with the cantrips, but I'd take the higher hit potential over a measly 2-3 points of damage on average; and that require two hits rather than one.

If anything, I think the Extra Attack is a trap ribbon of dubious use. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's actually a reduction in power - lowering the overall effectiveness of the subclass because less observant players will try to get the most out of every feature - including EA, to the point that they gimp themselves trying to optimize a MAD build.


As for MetaMagic - have you proponents actually played a sorc in a live game? MM is not that great. Some niche scenarios can be good in specific encounters, but it is not some great equalizer for different spell effects like a wizard can muster. If there was a feat that granted more, it might be worth it - but the effects are meh and there's too few obtained. You pick Twinned and Quicken, and then end up in a Silence zone wishing you'd grabbed Still instead...

The DM will ultimately play good cop/bad cop with your choices... you're either lucky, or you're not... Sorcs are bantha pudu

[JackPhoenix]

I ripped the favored soul out of the sorcerer lineup and pasted it into warlock. Made more thematic sense to me, plus the depending on your patron (now deity) for spells makes more sense here. Still haven't seen one in play yet, though

I don't know, isn't warlock with god patron called cleric?

[SharkForce]

I don't particularly disagree, but you do have to admit that with Sorcs some degree of caution is wise. With 5e action economy and bounded accuracy, sorcerer have a lot of ways to break free of those limitations, albeit in only specific ways. Stuff like Twin concentration (with a good save. Yes I know I overestimate this!) is fantastic for buff and support roles. My initial assumption of OP favored souls was due in part to me using them to crank the party in a game I'm in with a wild sorc up to 11, alongside a cleric dip. When I saw the extra attack it made me pretty concerned. But back on point, sorcerers are a great class for multiclassing. Metamagic on buffs or dips makes them really strong and gives them something other classes can't do. Even if wizard is stronger overall (it is), Im not sure I feel metamagic can just be brushed outside out of hand.

All that being said, yeah you're right. Lol

outside of polymorph around level 7, i'm not sold on twinned buffs being *that* great. haste is a great buff and all, as buffs go, but... for most people it's going to be one extra attack, and then some stuff they probably won't need more often than not. i feel like i can get a lot more out of my concentration than just "here, have one extra attack per round, oh and also if i lose concentration you lose all of your attacks for the next round". a hypnotic pattern in the right place could have made all of the enemies not act for the round (half lose their action, half spend their action waking up the others), which is like an entire extra action for *everyone* in the party. and it's a full action that can be used for anything.

[Gtdead]

Great Invisilibity is amazing too. Under favorable conditions it can work as 2 mini foresights.

[RickAllison]

Fun FS combo to use Extra Attack: Shove prone, Grapple, Quickened beat-down spell with advantage. Not sure whether it is worth it, but it's fun!

[EvilAnagram]

I'm appreciating the actual criticisms of Sorcerers. In my experience, as a Wild Magic Tiefling, being able to consistently impose disadvantage with Tasha’s Hideous Laughter and Hypnotic Pattern was extremely useful, and being able to grab advantage for an attack whenever I wanted was pretty damned awesome. Compared to my Transmuter Wizard, my spells hit more consistently, and they could be a lot more painful. The limited number of spells was rough, but I had what I needed.

Caveat: I tended to drop spell slots for sorcery points fairly often, and the max number of encounters we hit on any given day was four.

[SharkForce]

heighten costs a lot of SP to use, and only works on one save for one target. it isn't bad for tasha's (hopefully by the time they're getting their additional saves, their turn has already passed) since it's single target anyways, but it isn't that good for something like hypnotic pattern.

and your transmuter wizard shouldn't generally be using the same spells on targets (unless it is already the exact right spell, in which case you shouldn't need heighten all that much). you should be using your larger spell list, and more flexible access to spells, to try and target the best save to disable the target more effectively.

[Garresh]

outside of polymorph around level 7, i'm not sold on twinned buffs being *that* great. haste is a great buff and all, as buffs go, but... for most people it's going to be one extra attack, and then some stuff they probably won't need more often than not. i feel like i can get a lot more out of my concentration than just "here, have one extra attack per round, oh and also if i lose concentration you lose all of your attacks for the next round". a hypnotic pattern in the right place could have made all of the enemies not act for the round (half lose their action, half spend their action waking up the others), which is like an entire extra action for *everyone* in the party. and it's a full action that can be used for anything.

True, but that spell is just fantastic. What about other concentration effects like Hold Monster? Tbh I kind of see the buff selection falling off pretty hard after spell level 4, but Hold Monster grants advantage and guarantees criticals. That's not really pertaining to the favored soul over the Drac pally build posted higher up, but it's still a strong use of metamagic.

I suppose the thing with sorc is you have to specifically hunt down spells which play to whatever metamagic you're using. In a sense, it actually limits your spell selection even further, but those key spells that can be abused really put you ahead. *shrug*

[RaynorReynolds]

It's really the extra spells that make it stand out. If you just have the spells added to their CLASS list, it drops down to be on part with the other origins.

This is what I did. My player wasnt too happy though...

[SharkForce]

True, but that spell is just fantastic. What about other concentration effects like Hold Monster? Tbh I kind of see the buff selection falling off pretty hard after spell level 4, but Hold Monster grants advantage and guarantees criticals. That's not really pertaining to the favored soul over the Drac pally build posted higher up, but it's still a strong use of metamagic.

I suppose the thing with sorc is you have to specifically hunt down spells which play to whatever metamagic you're using. In a sense, it actually limits your spell selection even further, but those key spells that can be abused really put you ahead. *shrug*

i don't find it often too useful to cast hold monster. if things are weak enough to focus 2 down in a single round, it probably isn't worth the higher level slot.

but yes, twin has some definite value on offense. i just don't get all that excited about it on most buffs.

[EvilAnagram]

i don't find it often too useful to cast hold monster. if things are weak enough to focus 2 down in a single round, it probably isn't worth the higher level slot.

but yes, twin has some definite value on offense. i just don't get all that excited about it on most buffs.

I think Twin is great on buffs. Haste on the Paladin and Barbarian is fantastic, especially since they both soak up most of the attacks with their boosted AC. You're essentially giving yourself a 50% boost in damage output while boosting their AC.

As for Heighten, it's great for singling out the target if an AoE you want to fail most. It's more important for the necromancer to take the full effect of a Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern than for his skeletal minions to.

[SharkForce]

as a spellcaster, i consider dealing damage to be my least important duty, unless we're talking about AoEs that non-spellcasters can't handle. yes, that even extends by proxy to increasing the damage of others.

polymorph is great because it helps with what i consider the most important duty of a spellcaster: it makes enemy actions useless (traditionally, this is done with debuffs that make the enemy lose actions or decrease the value of their actions. polymorph does it by making all the HP damage they do basically meaningless, and at the same time also happens to provide enhanced offensive power). haste... not so much, most of the time. +2 AC is definitely helpful, but unless someone was already almost off the d20, it isn't preventing *that* much.

and if it's more important to land an AoE on the necromancer than the minions, choose something that is more likely to hit the necromancer. he probably has 3-4 saving throws that are poor, with one of those most likely being absolutely abysmal. target that save. if the minions fail, great. if not, well, you probably still accomplished your main goal, and the minons were just gravy.

[DracoKnight]

I think Twin is great on buffs. Haste on the Paladin and Barbarian is fantastic, especially since they both soak up most of the attacks with their boosted AC. You're essentially giving yourself a 50% boost in damage output while boosting their AC.

I played a Berserker a while back who took the Mobile feat from being Vhuman. Once the Sorc got haste the Wood Elf Monk and I were doing insane DPR and moving 100ft/round with +2 AC.

[EvilAnagram]

as a spellcaster, i consider dealing damage to be my least important duty, unless we're talking about AoEs that non-spellcasters can't handle. yes, that even extends by proxy to increasing the damage of others.
When I play a spellcaster, I consider my duty to be making any given encounter less painful. If we have the chance to surprise an enemy, casting a spell that increases the damage output of half the party by 50% and boosts their AC as a bonus is a fantastic use of concentration because it can end the fight quicker than my other options. Hypnotic Pattern and its like are great for dividing and conquering, but if we have one big nasty to deal with it won't be much help.


and if it's more important to land an AoE on the necromancer than the minions, choose something that is more likely to hit the necromancer. he probably has 3-4 saving throws that are poor, with one of those most likely being absolutely abysmal. target that save. if the minions fail, great. if not, well, you probably still accomplished your main goal, and the minons were just gravy.
Imposing disadvantage on the relevant save is often more useful than picking the better save, and if you have a specific goal in mind (dealing damage, imposing a debuff) it's often better to go for the effect you desire with disadvantage than to settle for a lesser effect. And if you know the relevant save is weak, imposing disadvantage all but guarantees success.