Rakshasa in Disguise

[Dr. Cliché]

I was just looking at the Rakshasa entry in the MM. In the fluff, we have "Few creatures ever see the fiend in its true form, for it can take on any guise it wants," which seems to line up with previous versions.

But then, when I looked at the entry, it lacked Change Shape or any equivalent. The only method of altering its appearance seems to be the Disguise Self spell.

First off, am I missing something? Is its ability to change shape an unofficial rule now? Or is it really stuck with Disguise Self as its only form of concealment?

If the latter . . . seriously? I mean, this thing is supposed to walk around in the guise of Nobles or Merchant Lords, right? Boy, I sure hope one never has to attend a meeting that goes on longer than 1 hour. "Uh, ignore the fact that I've grown a tiger head, folks! No need for alarm. Let me just cast this... um... cure spell."

Also, does Disguise Self even work? It specifically says that all changes are illusionary, so anyone shaking the Rakshasha's hand will feel a furred paw. Furthermore, we're told that "You can’t change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs." Considering that (as above) it's just an illusion, how the hell is the Rakshasha going to disguise its backward hands? Even if it hides them with the illusion and creates illusionary fingers on the right sides of its hands, it won't be able to use them (hence, the illusion will be spoilt the moment it picks up an object). Can it only pretend to Nobles and Merchants with horrifying birth defects that have left their hands the wrong way round?

Am I missing something here? :smallconfused:

[supergoji18]

I was just looking at the Rakshasa entry in the MM. In the fluff, we have "Few creatures ever see the fiend in its true form, for it can take on any guise it wants," which seems to line up with previous versions.

But then, when I looked at the entry, it lacked Change Shape or any equivalent. The only method of altering its appearance seems to be the Disguise Self spell.

First off, am I missing something? Is its ability to change shape an unofficial rule now? Or is it really stuck with Disguise Self as its only form of concealment?

If the latter . . . seriously? I mean, this thing is supposed to walk around in the guise of Nobles or Merchant Lords, right? Boy, I sure hope one never has to attend a meeting that goes on longer than 1 hour. "Uh, ignore the fact that I've grown a tiger head, folks! No need for alarm. Let me just cast this... um... cure spell."

Also, does Disguise Self even work? It specifically says that all changes are illusionary, so anyone shaking the Rakshasha's hand will feel a furred paw. Furthermore, we're told that "You can’t change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs." Considering that (as above) it's just an illusion, how the hell is the Rakshasha going to disguise its backward hands? Even if it hides them with the illusion and creates illusionary fingers on the right sides of its hands, it won't be able to use them (hence, the illusion will be spoilt the moment it picks up an object). Can it only pretend to Nobles and Merchants with horrifying birth defects that have left their hands the wrong way round?

Am I missing something here? :smallconfused:
There's a lot of things in fluff that are not backed up by the stats. Dragons for instance are supposed to have extremely close ties to magic, so much so that having even the tiniest hint of draconic ancestry is enough to make any creature a powerful sorcerer or even give them draconic traits. Do they get anything that backs that up? Only a variant that lets them use a pitiful number of low level spells only once per day. Wooooo...

This is why I sometimes make a lot of edits to the monsters in the monster manual, because a lot of the tools they need for the job have been either stripped from them or have been replaced with worse versions. But it is rather annoying that they didn't think this through well enough that I wouldn't have to make so many! At the very least they could have given the Rakshasa Alter Self instead.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Rakshasa, more than meets the eye
Rakshasa, demons in disguise

[supergoji18]

Rakshasa, more than meets the eye
Rakshasa, demons in disguise

Paraphrasing Sabine here, but
"Who are you calling a demon?"

[Joe the Rat]

Disguise self gives you the chance to catch the Rakshasa by the subtle hints. Remember that DS allows you to seem larger or smaller than you are - partial invisibility. People bumping into places were you are, but your disguise is not, is specifically noted in the spell writeup. Backwards hands would be obvious, but in disguise, it looks like they are gripping something the "right" way. Watching as the fiend grabs something, or the way they move their hands, or feeling a backwards where you see a normal one would be a tiny clue. Not wanting to shake hands, even with those equal to the station of their guise, would be another hint that something is up - or a character foible.

"What is this "shaking hands" you speak of? Why would I, Lord Fancypants the Splediferous, belittle myself so far as to touch some common folk. Besides, I have bad "Ex-zeehma." Very uncomfortable to be touched, which is why I require the finest of silks for my garments."


There's a lot of things in fluff that are not backed up by the stats. Dragons for instance are supposed to have extremely close ties to magic, so much so that having even the tiniest hint of draconic ancestry is enough to make any creature a powerful sorcerer or even give them draconic traits. Do they get anything that backs that up? Only a variant that lets them use a pitiful number of low level spells only once per day. Wooooo...
"Close ties with magic" does not necessarily mean "is a spellcaster." Dragons have a lot of raw power, and a some innate magical abilities - breath weapons and associated immunities being the most obvious, fear and shapechanging (for the shiny ones) more subtle. For the most powerful, the lair and associated environmental changes are essentially raw power seeping out of these creatures into the world around them.
Having the blood gives you power, which you learn to use to fuel your magic. Lacking other dragon traits, you don't have any other ways to use this power. Dragons can learn to do this as well, but many do not, because they're Dragons. A true Dragon Mage would be a frightening thing indeed, and make an excellent boss monster (or mentor) for a campaign.

[supergoji18]

"Close ties with magic" does not necessarily mean "is a spellcaster." Dragons have a lot of raw power, and a some innate magical abilities - breath weapons and associated immunities being the most obvious, fear and shapechanging (for the shiny ones) more subtle. For the most powerful, the lair and associated environmental changes are essentially raw power seeping out of these creatures into the world around them.
Having the blood gives you power, which you learn to use to fuel your magic. Lacking other dragon traits, you don't have any other ways to use this power. Dragons can learn to do this as well, but many do not, because they're Dragons. A true Dragon Mage would be a frightening thing indeed, and make an excellent boss monster (or mentor) for a campaign.
At the very least then they should get better innate spellcasting.
I always viewed the dragon fear thing as not being a type of magic, but instead being that they're just so god damn terrifying to see in person and attacking you. It's not like the Pit Fiend's Fear Aura, which is even named as an aura which implies some form of supernatural powers at work.

But I digress. I'll find a better example:
This is more of a personal gripe for me with all versions of the game, but I always found it weird that there were RAW ways for an elemental to regain hit points by absorbing something associated with its element, at least to a limited degree. Shouldn't a fire elemental in fire be able to constantly rejuvenate itself whenever it suffers damage? Or a water elemental in the water?
Storm Giants can't fly despite at least half of them supposedly living high up in the clouds even above the Cloud Giants. The best they can do is levitate, which helps the vertical movement but not the horizontal.
A Mammoth is somehow stronger and tougher than a Triceratops, despite being about half the size.
There is also, as far as I know, no rules for Demonic possession, despite how big of a thing that used to be.
Speaking of which, there doesn't seem to be any way a demon or devil would have the means of fulfilling some bargains without consorting with one of their superiors (which they don't have many of because they're so high up the food chain). Maybe it's just because i've watched Supernatural so much where the demons can do literally anything when a deal is struck, but demons and devils don't have any raw way of doing that.

I guess most of the stuff can be handwaved, but I prefer for all the capabilities of any creature to be listed in their stat block instead of having to look up a bunch of lore about what they can and can't do.

[Dr. Cliché]

Disguise self gives you the chance to catch the Rakshasa by the subtle hints.

But that's my point - the hints are far from subtle. A city would have to be completely brain-dead to be fooled by the disguise for any period of time.

Not to mention that anyone with even a basic knowledge of magic will notice the Rakshasa casting Disguise Self hourly.


Backwards hands would be obvious, but in disguise, it looks like they are gripping something the "right" way.

I'm not sure that's even possible, given the limits of the spell. And, as above, I think any onlookers would quickly see that he is manipulating the objects he holds in an unusual way - either his hands are bending in ways that should break bones, or else they are rearranging themselves. Even if you don't know exactly what he is, such unnatural movements should scream wrongness to anyone with a functioning brain.



Having the blood gives you power, which you learn to use to fuel your magic.

But, why can't dragons themselves use it to fuel magic?

It's really weird when pure dragon blood gives allows for a pathetic number of spells, whilst diluted dragon blood can apparently fuel dozens of spells and infinite cantrips.

I mean, if this is really how it works, someone in the D&D universe needs to invent homoeopathy. Imagine how much stronger spellcasters will be, when they have access to even more diluted dragon blood. :smallbiggrin:

[Democratus]

But, why can't dragons themselves use it to fuel magic?

It's really weird when pure dragon blood gives allows for a pathetic number of spells, whilst diluted dragon blood can apparently fuel dozens of spells and infinite cantrips.

I mean, if this is really how it works, someone in the D&D universe needs to invent homoeopathy. Imagine how much stronger spellcasters will be, when they have access to even more diluted dragon blood. :smallbiggrin:

They do. It takes massive amounts of magic to allow a dragon to be a dragon.

They have impossible abilities that wouldn't work if it weren't for the massive amount of dragon blood they have. In fact, it takes up so much magic to maintain their dragon-ness that there is little left for anything else.

A normal human, on the other hand, doesn't require any magic to just be human. So even a little bit of dragon blood magic can be freed up to fuel spells.

[Telok]

They do. It takes massive amounts of magic to allow a dragon to be a dragon.
Right, so if a dragon is trapped in an antimagic field or dead magic zone it stops being a dragon or loses all it's so-much-magic powers. And half dragons should either be better spellcasters or worse spellcasters than sorcerers.

But none of that is true.

If I recall correctly the Disguise Self spell doesn't do anything about sound or smell either. What's Mr. Fangy-mouth's vocal mimicry check versus the average commoner's +0 Wis (Insight)?

Edit: checked, it's +10 Deception. Somebody check my math, that's about a 1 in 10 chance for a commoner to catch on to the disguise.

[JackPhoenix]

Right, so if a dragon is trapped in an antimagic field or dead magic zone it stops being a dragon or loses all it's so-much-magic powers. And half dragons should either be better spellcasters or worse spellcasters than sorcerers.

But none of that is true.

That shows how magical the dragons are. Can you imagine the power they must have so they can ignore the Antimagic Field and still breathe fire, fly and not collapse under their own weight?

And genetics isn't as simple (not that crossbreeding human(oids) with 6-limbed flying reptiles make any biological sense in the first place). If ligers can be bigger than both tigers and lions, why can't 25% dragon/ 75% human hybrid be a more powerful caster than its pureblood ancestors?

[smcmike]

A Mammoth is somehow stronger and tougher than a Triceratops, despite being about half the size.

Huh? Google says they both reached about 12 tons.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

But that's my point - the hints are far from subtle. A city would have to be completely brain-dead to be fooled by the disguise for any period of time.
Given that shaking hands is not something universal across cultures, this is less of a problem than you'd think. In fact, higher class people physically touching lower class people (or even peers) is rare to non-existent in many cultures.


I'm not sure that's even possible, given the limits of the spell. And, as above, I think any onlookers would quickly see that he is manipulating the objects he holds in an unusual way - either his hands are bending in ways that should break bones, or else they are rearranging themselves. Even if you don't know exactly what he is, such unnatural movements should scream wrongness to anyone with a functioning brain.
I think you're overestimating the limits of the spell, frankly. 'Basic body type' means 'same number of limbs', 'not changing between quadrupedal and bipedal', etc. Little fiddly bits like which way their fingers are facing are easily within the bounds of the spell to disguise. There's no particular reason the spell can't make it look like your fingers are wrapped around the other side of the object.


Not to mention that anyone with even a basic knowledge of magic will notice the Rakshasa casting Disguise Self hourly.
This is a problem, admittedly. I see this issue with a number of 'at-will' spells for monsters who are supposed to be able to keep the effects up long-term.

You should probably at least consider the 'Disguise Self to have indefinite duration. While I think that's the only change you need, if it still bugs you, you could also upgrade to 'Alter Self'.

[Vogonjeltz]

Also, does Disguise Self even work? It specifically says that all changes are illusionary, so anyone shaking the Rakshasha's hand will feel a furred paw. Furthermore, we're told that "You can’t change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs." Considering that (as above) it's just an illusion, how the hell is the Rakshasha going to disguise its backward hands? Even if it hides them with the illusion and creates illusionary fingers on the right sides of its hands, it won't be able to use them (hence, the illusion will be spoilt the moment it picks up an object). Can it only pretend to Nobles and Merchants with horrifying birth defects that have left their hands the wrong way round?

Am I missing something here?

Arrangement of limbs is specifically noted as meaning if you have 4 limbs, you still have 4 limbs. The spell also states that anything else is up to the caster, so presumably object interaction is not problematic at all (i.e. it appears as if you're manipulating the object correctly).

[Dr. Cliché]

Given that shaking hands is not something universal across cultures, this is less of a problem than you'd think. In fact, higher class people physically touching lower class people (or even peers) is rare to non-existent in many cultures.

The paragraph you quoted did not mention shaking hands.

If shaking hands was the *only* problem, I'd agree with you that it wasn't an issue. But, there are just too many holes in this disguise.



I think you're overestimating the limits of the spell, frankly. 'Basic body type' means 'same number of limbs', 'not changing between quadrupedal and bipedal', etc. Little fiddly bits like which way their fingers are facing are easily within the bounds of the spell to disguise. There's no particular reason the spell can't make it look like your fingers are wrapped around the other side of the object.

It specifies 'same basic arrangement of limbs', which could (and, IMO, does) include the arrangement of fingers and joints. I mean, by your definition, you could turn into just about *anything* of the right size. Bear in mind that, if you ignore the internals of limbs, everything in the animal kingdom has the same 'basic arrangement of limbs'.

Hence, I think it's far more reasonable to assume that the limbs themselves must also be basically the same. No backwards joints or vastly elongated fingers.

Furthermore, I think you're being optimistic in how easily it would be for an illusion to cover up backward hands. Depending on where its actual hands are, whenever it picks up an object it may seem to teleport as the illusion has to cover up the object and put it in a different place. Then you've got problems like your illusionary hand passing through objects, or your arm contorting in weird ways to allow you to pick up objects the right way round. Not to mention what will happen when your hand moves in a way that a normal hand shouldn't.

Like I said, if it was just shaking hands that caused problems, it'd be fine. But, this illusion is going to run into massive problems the moment you try and manipulate *anything*. And, as above, I'm still dubious that you're even allowed to turn into a creature with a completely different arrangement of hands.



You should probably at least consider the 'Disguise Self to have indefinite duration.

If I'm ignoring the rules anyway, I might as well just give it Change Shape and be done with it.


Arrangement of limbs is specifically noted as meaning if you have 4 limbs, you still have 4 limbs.

No such note exists.

As above, I'd argue it's much more likely that it includes the arrangement of fingers/joints within limbs - so you cannot appear to be a humanoid creature with wings or (as in this case) a humanoid with joints in completely different places.

[Joe the Rat]

It specifies 'same basic arrangement of limbs', which could (and, IMO, does) include the arrangement of fingers and joints. I mean, by your definition, you could turn into just about *anything* of the right size. Bear in mind that, if you ignore the internals of limbs, everything in the animal kingdom has the same 'basic arrangement of limbs'.

Hence, I think it's far more reasonable to assume that the limbs themselves must also be basically the same. No backwards joints or vastly elongated fingers

...

Like I said, if it was just shaking hands that caused problems, it'd be fine. But, this illusion is going to run into massive problems the moment you try and manipulate *anything*. And, as above, I'm still dubious that you're even allowed to turn into a creature with a completely different arrangement of hands. Here is where our disagreement lies. You are looking at anatomical structure as the key for the disguise, where the disguise is like an illusory skin over the body structure. The way I see it, the illusion cannot simply be a skin. If you increase or decrease your height by a foot, your major joints will be in the wrong places. The disguise needs to follow function as much as form.

Instead of seeing the illusory hand as a glove over the hand of the Rakshasa, look at it as an illusion centered on the palm -the illusion and real hand overlap each other at the point where the Rakshasa holds something. Something being held is in the right position, but a disguised fiend must be careful to use a straight-on grab, lest an object pass through its hand on the way to being held.

[smcmike]

Isn't the hands thing exactly the sort of thing that the investigation check might notice? In other words, the mechanics of the spell give us a perfectly good way to say how well the illusion works. Noticing the hands thing is a pretty nice detail for a successful check, though. Very creepy way to notice that something is off.

As for the effectiveness of the illusion, the rakshasa isn't out mingling, he's running some sort of plot from a back office or a grand mansion, from a position of power that allows him to set the terms of interaction.

[Democratus]

Agreed. I don't really see Rakshasa as the boardroom meeting type.

If they are meeting someone in person, that person is either already under their (reversed) thumb or is about to be cowed into submission.

They are immortal beings who amass great wealth over generations. It's not likely they are going to be scrutinized closely very often by someone who doesn't already know with whom they are dealing.

[RickAllison]

Isn't the hands thing exactly the sort of thing that the investigation check might notice? In other words, the mechanics of the spell give us a perfectly good way to say how well the illusion works. Noticing the hands thing is a pretty nice detail for a successful check, though. Very creepy way to notice that something is off.

As for the effectiveness of the illusion, the rakshasa isn't out mingling, he's running some sort of plot from a back office or a grand mansion, from a position of power that allows him to set the terms of interaction.

PC: "Here is a token of my esteem, a custom lockbox."
Rakshasa: "Thank you, you may hand it to my attendant here."

I imagine a lot of interactions like this, where the rakshasa pawns off interactions that might compromise his disguise onto servants or other lackeys.

[Dr. Cliché]

Instead of seeing the illusory hand as a glove over the hand of the Rakshasa, look at it as an illusion centered on the palm -the illusion and real hand overlap each other at the point where the Rakshasa holds something.

No, I get that. What I'm saying is that still creating a lot of issues.

Remember that it's fingers are on the other side of its palm. Hence, any object it attempts to pick up normally will appear to be stuck to the back if its hand. If it goes the other way, it's illusionary hand will have to phase through the object to pick it up. If the illusion covers the object and makes it look like its in the right place when touched, then anyone looking will see it teleport as the Rakshasa picks it up, and again when it puts it down. And god help it if it actually needs to pass someone the object.

Now, it could maybe turn its hand so that it grips the object in the right way, but that just causes other problems. For a start, its arms are going to be bent in really weird ways. e.g. get a mug or something and try picking it up normally. Now try turning your hand 180 degrees and doing the same. Look at the position your arm ends up in. Now try drinking from that cup. Not only is it far from easy, but your arm is going to be in a very weird position.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, but it's quite hard to articulate the problem without a diagram. :smalltongue:


Isn't the hands thing exactly the sort of thing that the investigation check might notice?

Why do you need Investigation though? This is my entire point - the clues are so glaring and obvious that they should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.

[Joe the Rat]

Heck, I see a lot of interactions with actual nobles running like that as well.

[Dr. Cliché]

I guess I just preferred it when Rakshasas had more disguise ability than the average Scooby Doo villain. :smalltongue:

Looks like I'm in the minority here though.

[smcmike]

Why do you need Investigation though? This is my entire point - the clues are so glaring and obvious that they should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain.

Because the rules say that's how you notice disguise self. I get what you are saying, and agree that handing objects to a rakshasa should be a clever way to get advantage on the check. My guess is they would be adept at holding hands upside down. Elbows go out a bit, but it isn't wildly unnatural, if covered by big robes as illusion.

[Joe the Rat]

No, I get that. What I'm saying is that still creating a lot of issues.

Remember that it's fingers are on the other side of its palm. Hence, any object it attempts to pick up normally will appear to be stuck to the back if its hand. If it goes the other way, it's illusionary hand will have to phase through the object to pick it up. If the illusion covers the object and makes it look like its in the right place when touched, then anyone looking will see it teleport as the Rakshasa picks it up, and again when it puts it down. And god help it if it actually needs to pass someone the object.

The palm is the gripping side, not the whole metacarpal meat-cover. Here's what I'm seeing:

Your left hand is what a Rakshasa's right hand looks like (only with less fur(?)), and vice versa. Open your hands in a relaxed grip. The space between palm and thumb is more or less straight outward from the wrist. This is where your hand-illusion centers.

Hold your hands in a vertical position, and place one hand over the other, so that wrists are aligned, and you are touching the pad of your pinky to the pad of the index finger below. This is how I'm seeing the base illusion: Your "attached" hand is the illusion, your other hand is the Rakshasa hand. The most effective grab illusion is to make the heel the overlap, and have the fingers following the thumb, and vice versa. This puts your grab in the same position, though you have some invisible fingers past that illusory thumb.

So long as object interactions pass through that space between finger and thumb, it should look mostly normal. I say mostly, because your range of motion on your wrist varies by direction. A Rakshasa could appear to have a stiff wrist, but must be careful not to "bend the hand backwards"

[kaoskonfety]

I'm a big fan of "don't like it? fix it"

Replacing casting Disguise Self as an available spell with Alter self at will does... nothing at all to the CR? *Clap* *Clap* - it is done. Weak shape shifting honestly fits ALOT better than a low level illusion that can be undone with an unasked for hug.

That said disguise self should cover off the various visual queues. The people watching you fence won't get tipped of to your wacky wrist - but the guy blocking your *slightly off* sword might, the medic treating your sword wound I'm not even going to have make a check - they know.

The real desiding factor is how detectable you want your freaky Devil Cat Monster to be.

Utterly undetectable - alter self and ongoing mind reading as a kinda of constant effect.
Kinda detectable - suspicious behaviors to cover up their disguise self and frequent casting of disguise self
Hilariously detectable - Disguise self and little covering up, just kills or brings into the scheme everyone who figures it out (mind reading is GREAT for figuring out whose going to play along) - for this last one the players can with some mild effort find the big bad and reveal them... to discover everyone in the royal court (still alive) knows and is in on it.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm a big fan of "don't like it? fix it"

Yeah, I was mostly just curious as to whether I'd missed something, or whether its disguise ability really was that weak now.

[Segev]

In editions where Rakshasa were able to actually shapeshift, they were explicitly unable to disguise the backwards-ness of their palms.

[Dr. Cliché]

In editions where Rakshasa were able to actually shapeshift, they were explicitly unable to disguise the backwards-ness of their palms.

Any idea which edition that was?

There's no mention of that limitation in the 3.5 edition Rakshasa.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm

[Segev]

Any idea which edition that was?

There's no mention of that limitation in the 3.5 edition Rakshasa.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm

I'll need to dig out my monster manuals. I think it's true in 1e AD&D and the 2e Monstrous Manual. I thought it was in the 3e (both .0 and .5), which is why I need to check the books.

[kaoskonfety]

I'll need to dig out my monster manuals. I think it's true in 1e AD&D and the 2e Monstrous Manual. I thought it was in the 3e (both .0 and .5), which is why I need to check the books.

Played one in 3rd (3.0) for a high level villainy game - the alter self concealed it/ it was not called out as trumping the magical effect (or I missed it and i am dumb, it was some years ago)

That Crossbow Bolt thing was bad news in 3.0 though.

Good times

[Vogonjeltz]

No such note exists.

As above, I'd argue it's much more likely that it includes the arrangement of fingers/joints within limbs - so you cannot appear to be a humanoid creature with wings or (as in this case) a humanoid with joints in completely different places.

Oh yes, No such note exists at all...well...except the spell text. See: paragraph 1, sentences 3-4. It prohibits changing body type, and then flat out gives the caster the ability to arrange the illusions beyond that restriction as they please.

[Dr. Cliché]

Oh yes, No such note exists at all...well...except the spell text.

This is what you said:

"Arrangement of limbs is specifically noted as meaning if you have 4 limbs, you still have 4 limbs."

Again, that "note" exists nowhere in the spell text.


It prohibits changing body type, and then flat out gives the caster the ability to arrange the illusions beyond that restriction as they please.

It actually says "You can’t change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs."

As I already said, I think you're reading far too much leeway into that rule.

Regardless, the point is that you were flat-out wrong. You said a note existed, clarifying that the above sentence only referred to number of limbs. That was an outright lie. No such clarification appears anywhere in the spell's text.

If you disagree on the interpretation of the illusion's limits, fine. But when you have to stoop to fabricating evidence to support your argument, it kinda shows how flimsy you must think your own case is.