What's worth falling for?

[Nibbens]

The pallys fall is an oft discussed mechanic that causes as much anger and teeth nashing as... well, as anything, really. But this thread isn't about that hate.

Many people use the pallys fall/atonement as an interesting storytelling device for a characters own personal arc. Many actually fall on purpose, or start fallen and rise/reinstate themselves over the course of a game. Sometimes, paladins willingly accept the fall to accomplish something great - for something that's worth it within a well told story.

What I'm wondering is, what are your falling stories? What was so great it was worth falling for?

And lastly, no arguing about the minutia of whether X should have actually caused a fall or not. If you're writing here, it's because you knew darn well what you were doing, and possibly even wanted to fall to accomplish a goal.

[Mehangel]

The pallys fall is an oft discussed mechanic that causes as much anger and teeth nashing as... well, as anything, really. But this thread isn't about that hate.

Many people use the pallys fall/atonement as an interesting storytelling device for a characters own personal arc. Many actually fall on purpose, or start fallen and rise/reinstate themselves over the course of a game. Sometimes, paladins willingly accept the fall to accomplish something great - for something that's worth it within a well told story.

What I'm wondering is, what are your falling stories? What was so great it was worth falling for?

And lastly, no arguing about the minutia of whether X should have actually caused a fall or not. If you're writing here, it's because you knew darn well what you were doing, and possibly even wanted to fall to accomplish a goal.

Thing is a paladin may fall for different reasons depending upon their patron deity (some of which have nothing to due with morals (good/evil) or ethics (law/chaos). Thus for example, if a particular deity states that their Paladins may not cut their hair, and a paladin cuts their hair (and thus falls), they have performed neither an evil nor a chaotic act, yet still fell.

Thus in opinion, if the paladin does some great deed of exalted goodness (i.e. fought off the hordes of the abyss, saved the world, brought about peace throughout the seven kingdoms, converted a demonlord (and their followers) to your faith, etc), but falls because of some peculiar dogma specific to their patron, the fall was worth falling for.

However, if the fall came about by doing something evil (with a lowercase e), then no, the fall was not worth it, and it became a win for the side of Evil (with a capital E).

[Geddy2112]

It was not a pally, but an LG cleric who lost faith in his faith. That the gospel of goodness and protection of his religion was simply not doing enough.

But he worked for a theocracy, and while the hands of god in heaven seemed useless, the power of the theocracy was real, and measurable.

After yet another setback where divine goodness, praying, healing the sick, protecting the meek, and purging the profane resulted in jack squat, he was done with being good. We had saved a town from control of a vampire, cured a deadly plague, and removed a blight from the fields. But not a dang thing changed in the grand scheme-all of the faith and good works meant nothing, as the town went right back into another set of misfortunes by their own choosing.

He tried again to save the town, but this time, nothing good he could do worked, or mattered. The party left the town, the cleric was in tears. He swore against his god for being weak, and that the mortal theocracy he served is the only way.

The next town over, he found a sinner, and brought him to seclusion for an impromptu confession and evangelism. He did the standard witnessing, asked the convert to kneel and close his eyes, then cast silence and anoited him with holy water. At this point, the table is snickering thinking that this is going into a X rated scene. Until the cleric put his buckler gun to the back of his head and blew his brains out. Then burned the body and walked off. The rest of the table was silent and the DM had to step out for 10 minutes, due to the shock.

Further encounters pushed him into a hard LN, still receiving powers from his deity, but where he was the friendly evangelist revivalist old time church minister, he had become Judge Dredd. Faith is the law, the law is faith. Eventually when we got back to the capital, the high pontiff forced him to retire to a desk job, sensing that he would go full LE.

So, it was not a hard fall, but watching your holy acts do nothing and seem meaningless caused him to lose faith, so he did not fall, but more abandoned his deity.

[Nibbens]

It was not a pally, but an LG cleric who lost faith in his faith.

Still counts!


At this point, the table is snickering thinking that this is going into a X rated scene. Until the cleric put his buckler gun to the back of his head and blew his brains out. Then burned the body and walked off. The rest of the table was silent and the DM had to step out for 10 minutes, due to the shock.

I had to reread this line a couple times. This is awesome! lol.

[DrMartin]

Mandatory link to the Powder Keg of Justice! (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice)

[OldTrees1]

I have not actually run one of these stories yet but I can answer in the abstract:

What is worth falling for?
Doing what one knows is the right thing.

This includes both the tale of the Cleric doing the right thing despite their god being mistaken and the tale of the Paladin doing the wrong thing out of a misunderstanding of what is right.

[Gildedragon]

Worth falling for: breaking with Law to preserve Good.
Breaking a Sacred Vow to heal or save others.
A fall to neutrality to act as a crucible for faith and the return to goodness (following disillusionment with one's god/church or a taking-for-granted of the granted powers)

[LoyalPaladin]

What is worth falling for?
Doing what one knows is the right thing.
Correct.

Being a paladin is not just holding a job where your CEO is a literal deity. Being a paladin is choosing a hard and dangerous life because you believe that it is the right thing to do. At some point in your life, you were called to be an exemplar to society. Was it the god of justice calling your name from the heavens? Did you witness an act of evil that was so heinous, you had to act against it?

The truth is, it doesn't matter how you became a paladin. What matters is why you stayed a paladin. Why did you choose to stay the straight and narrow path? The path filled with jagged rocks and evildoers lying in wait? Not only that, you chose to make the path harder by becoming a paladin. You could have become a cleric, spells to melt those evildoers and mend your wounds are accompanied by lower standards from society.

Being a paladin means you are not only dedicated to your cause, but you are willing to put grueling work into it. Every. Single. Day. It is your life. It is your everything. Every fiber of your being is wholly devoted to the path of truth and righteousness.

So, going back to the question at hand. What could possibly be so incredibly important that you would take a hammer to your code and walk away? The answer, is doing the right thing.

[johnbragg]

First and only paladin I've played, back in 2E in high school, with a DM who we later learned was usually hung over when we played in the afternoon after school. 2E, when being a paladin was the munchkiny choice, not the "roleplaying over optimizing" choice.

His INT was way down after having his brain munched by a mind flayer, so he accepted without reservation or real investigation the price of the super-mega-powerful caster required to restore his INT. "You must do one thing for me."

His intelligence restored, the trap was sprung--the "one thing" was to kill the party fighter. Aragon Valencia chose to break his word and fall, rather than betray his friend. (Somehow, unprovoked murder didn't factor greatly in the decision. Ehh, 16 year olds and D&D.)

(CN fighter, who was a half-dozen levels higher than Aragon, 25 vs 18 or so, did briefly consider rejecting the handshake and fighting Aragon anyway.)

[Nibbens]

Correct.

Being a paladin is not just holding a job where your CEO is a literal deity. Being a paladin is choosing a hard and dangerous life because you believe that it is the right thing to do. At some point in your life, you were called to be an exemplar to society. Was it the god of justice calling your name from the heavens? Did you witness an act of evil that was so heinous, you had to act against it?

The truth is, it doesn't matter how you became a paladin. What matters is why you stayed a paladin. Why did you choose to stay the straight and narrow path? The path filled with jagged rocks and evildoers lying in wait? Not only that, you chose to make the path harder by becoming a paladin. You could have become a cleric, spells to melt those evildoers and mend your wounds are accompanied by lower standards from society.

Being a paladin means you are not only dedicated to your cause, but you are willing to put grueling work into it. Every. Single. Day. It is your life. It is your everything. Every fiber of your being is wholly devoted to the path of truth and righteousness.

So, going back to the question at hand. What could possibly be so incredibly important that you would take a hammer to your code and walk away? The answer, is doing the right thing.

Loyal, I'd be shocked if you didn't have a personal story. lol.

[LoyalPaladin]

Loyal, I'd be shocked if you didn't have a personal story. lol.
Only one. My DM is fairly against falling a paladin. I'll set the stage. Ahem. Paladin/Shadowstriker, worshiper of Pelor. Poorly assembled campaign near the early days of my playing paladins. I was actually trying to get a firmer grasp of 3.5 since I was going to be DMing a game, so I was playing at a local game shop with a bunch of strangers.

We'd been sent on a holy quest by Pelor to rid an area of lycanthropes and various other monstrous humanoids. The mission was a "no questions asked" type mission as we were the task force assigned to Pelor's "hush hush" type missions. Along the way, we'd encountered a lot of people and my paladin, Solarion Firestorm (get the laughing out of the way now, folks), had met an elf that he'd become exceptionally fond of and she was a priestess of Wee Jas.

Skipping forward a few sessions, we get to the the "final area" of the adventure and find out that, not only were all the monstrous humanoids attached to the church of Wee Jas, the elf I'd met was actually the head priestess of the organization we'd been systematically eliminating in the name of Pelor. Knowing from past experience that not only was the elf good and just, it was easy to assume that most of her colleagues must have been to (since they didn't detect as [Evil]).

So here is where my paladin stands. Not only is he a champion of Pelor, he is part of one of Pelor's esteemed organizations. But, in the pale moon light he stood in a clearing, weapon drawn to lay his "enemy" low. Many things went through my head and the rest of my party was eager and willing to do battle immediately. But neither I, nor Solarion could justify this slaughter.

So here I am, in the game shop with total strangers. I pick up all of my things and move to an empty spot next to the DM and state. "Solarion walks to the elf's side and ready's his shield." They all looked at me like I was crazy! But I told them in-character "I am a champion of good and justice. The slaughter of innocents is neither of those. So though we are friends, I must now take up arms against you to serve the greater good." The whole game store went quiet and the cashier actually abandoned a transaction to come watch this unfold.

The DM had my paladin fall, after stating that and I was brutally massacred by my former team. But not only did I manage to kill two of them (one by a critical hit), I'm now apparently semi-famous there for my paladin's final words. As he lay in a pool of his own blood, next to the elf, he looked his old teammate in the eyes and said "You did your duty and I do not blame you. I pray, that in the next life, we meet on better terms than we parted."

I was pretty green at the game then. But I've always enjoyed roleplay and paladins hold a very special place in my heart. The story is pretty cheesy, but I hope somebody enjoys it. It is one of those story's that "LP" doesn't tell very often haha.

[dascarletm]

A girl paler than the moon, with eyes that shine like stars. She would also marvel at my strength while adoring all of my battle scars. She would also have to cook well.
Now, that's a girl worth falling for.
That's what I said a girl worth falling for!

[LoyalPaladin]

A girl paler than the moon, with eyes that shine like stars. She would also marvel at my strength while adoring all of my battle scars. She would also have to cook well.
Now, that's a girl worth falling for.
That's what I said a girl worth falling for!
http://i.imgur.com/nido04b.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tOXEPNvNB8)

[Red Fel]

What is worth falling for?
Doing what one knows is the right thing.


What could possibly be so incredibly important that you would take a hammer to your code and walk away? The answer, is doing the right thing.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fc/a3/11/fca311642b58e0ed9fc61b2cad1a8cab.jpg

Mandatory link to the Powder Keg of Justice! (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice)

I came here expecting to see this. I was not disappointed.


A girl paler than the moon, with eyes that shine like stars. She would also marvel at my strength while adoring all of my battle scars. She would also have to cook well.
Now, that's a girl worth falling for.
That's what I said a girl worth falling for!

I came here expecting to post this. I was disappointed. That I didn't get to it first.

[Nibbens]

~snip~

Red Fel, you could add an interesting twist here. Have you any stories of Anti-Pallys falling? I'm sure that'd be an interesting story to hear!

(Is it falling if it's an Anti-pally? Or is it Rising? lol.)

[Michael7123]

Correct.

Being a paladin is not just holding a job where your CEO is a literal deity. Being a paladin is choosing a hard and dangerous life because you believe that it is the right thing to do. At some point in your life, you were called to be an exemplar to society. Was it the god of justice calling your name from the heavens? Did you witness an act of evil that was so heinous, you had to act against it?

The truth is, it doesn't matter how you became a paladin. What matters is why you stayed a paladin. Why did you choose to stay the straight and narrow path? The path filled with jagged rocks and evildoers lying in wait? Not only that, you chose to make the path harder by becoming a paladin. You could have become a cleric, spells to melt those evildoers and mend your wounds are accompanied by lower standards from society.

Being a paladin means you are not only dedicated to your cause, but you are willing to put grueling work into it. Every. Single. Day. It is your life. It is your everything. Every fiber of your being is wholly devoted to the path of truth and righteousness.

So, going back to the question at hand. What could possibly be so incredibly important that you would take a hammer to your code and walk away? The answer, is doing the right thing.

That's just it though. The code of the paladin is doing the right thing.

If you loose your powers for doing the right thing (not just want you want to be the right thing, but what is actually the right thing), it's the entity that took the powers that is in the wrong.

A paladin who is doing the right thing can never fall. Because it is only by doing the wrong thing that one ceases to be a paladin.

[Red Fel]

Red Fel, you could add an interesting twist here. Have you any stories of Anti-Pallys falling? I'm sure that'd be an interesting story to hear!

(Is it falling if it's an Anti-pally? Or is it Rising? lol.)

Believe it or not, I've never played an Antipaladin. Rather, believe it, as I've made my distaste for the class well known. That said, I've also never played an "anti-Paladin" - that is, a character utterly opposite a Paladin - who redeemed1. At least, not in D&D. Closest I got was in a game called In Nomine, but that's not really a subject for this subforum.

I have played villains who regretted what they did. Not enough to repent or turn back, but enough to express a bit of remorse before continuing with what they felt needed to be done. My characters are like that.

1 We on this side of the alignment spectrum call it "redeeming," for the record. The process of completely breaking down and reassembling your worldview should have a name that suggests something more elaborate and grand than tripping over your own feet, after all. Pfft. Falling. Amateurs.

[Crake]

That's just it though. The code of the paladin is doing the right thing.

If you loose your powers for doing the right thing (not just want you want to be the right thing, but what is actually the right thing), it's the entity that took the powers that is in the wrong.

A paladin who is doing the right thing can never fall. Because it is only by doing the wrong thing that one ceases to be a paladin.

This is always an issue I've had with paladins that follow a deity, as the deity's agenda can conflict with the paladin's dedication not to a higher power, but the very concept of lawful good itself. That's why for my campaign setting I have the 4 alignment based paladins (default, freedom, slaughter and tyranny) but then I also have a different paladin "archetype" I suppose you could call it (I actually run 3.5) for each deity with different codes of conduct and different abilities substituted out.

[LoyalPaladin]

This is always an issue I've had with paladins that follow a deity, as the deity's agenda can conflict with the paladin's dedication not to a higher power, but the very concept of lawful good itself. That's why for my campaign setting I have the 4 alignment based paladins (default, freedom, slaughter and tyranny) but then I also have a different paladin "archetype" I suppose you could call it (I actually run 3.5) for each deity with different codes of conduct and different abilities substituted out.
We use a deity's dogma as a paladin's code at my table and the table I play at.

Do you have any goodies for Torm?! :smallbiggrin:

[Illven]

This is always an issue I've had with paladins that follow a deity, as the deity's agenda can conflict with the paladin's dedication not to a higher power, but the very concept of lawful good itself. That's why for my campaign setting I have the 4 alignment based paladins (default, freedom, slaughter and tyranny) but then I also have a different paladin "archetype" I suppose you could call it (I actually run 3.5) for each deity with different codes of conduct and different abilities substituted out.

Now see that's something I've always been interested in.

Any for Sune.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's just it though. The code of the paladin is doing the right thing.

If you loose your powers for doing the right thing (not just want you want to be the right thing, but what is actually the right thing), it's the entity that took the powers that is in the wrong.

A paladin who is doing the right thing can never fall. Because it is only by doing the wrong thing that one ceases to be a paladin.This is wrong, because the paladin's code is far too rigid to allow him to do the "right" thing at times without falling, because sometimes there is no "right" thing -- just less wrong.

Say, an amoral chthonic being that predates reality demands a sacrifice of a specific person, a girl, or it will destroy reality in a fit of pique. (The girl is a reincarnated soul of another such being, due to a cycle that occurs in the turning of the wheel of time. She is not innocent, but she's not a particularly bad person, either. She just had the horrible luck of being marked.) The sacrifice is definitely Evil with a capital E, but not doing so will result in everything being destroyed, including the girl.

Allowing reality to be destroyed is obviously not the right thing in any circumstance, unless the reality in question is simply too far gone down the alignment sewer to be redeemed. But which is worse, performing the sacrifice, or passively destroying everything that is and ever will be? Heck, even allowing the sacrifice to take place is turning a blind eye to a horribly Evil act, and not trying to stop it may very well force you to fall.

Sometimes an evil act is the right thing to do, even when it would be very, very wrong in practically every other possible scenario.

[Crake]

We use a deity's dogma as a paladin's code at my table and the table I play at.

Do you have any goodies for Torm?! :smallbiggrin:

I run a homebrew pantheon so unfortunately not :smallfrown: My list is actually mostly incomplete, as I've been doing them on an as-per-need basis, I think I only have about 1/5th of all of them actually properly done up (I have I think 33 "higher powers" in my pantheon), though this thread has inspired me to do some more work on it :smallsmile:

[Illven]

I run a homebrew pantheon so unfortunately not :smallfrown: My list is actually mostly incomplete, as I've been doing them on an as-per-need basis, I think I only have about 1/5th of all of them actually properly done up (I have I think 33 "higher powers" in my pantheon), though this thread has inspired me to do some more work on it :smallsmile:

Anyone like Torm or Sune then?

[Gildedragon]

This is wrong, because the paladin's code is far too rigid to allow him to do the "right" thing at times without falling, because sometimes there is no "right" thing -- just less wrong.

Say, an amoral chthonic being that predates reality demands a sacrifice of a specific person, a girl, or it will destroy reality in a fit of pique. (The girl is a reincarnated soul of another such being, due to a cycle that occurs in the turning of the wheel of time. She is not innocent, but she's not a particularly bad person, either. She just had the horrible luck of being marked.) The sacrifice is definitely Evil with a capital E, but not doing so will result in everything being destroyed, including the girl.

Allowing reality to be destroyed is obviously not the right thing in any circumstance, unless the reality in question is simply too far gone down the alignment sewer to be redeemed. But which is worse, performing the sacrifice, or passively destroying everything that is and ever will be? Heck, even allowing the sacrifice to take place is turning a blind eye to a horribly Evil act, and not trying to stop it may very well force you to fall.

Sometimes an evil act is the right thing to do, even when it would be very, very wrong in practically every other possible scenario.

The paladin probably goes off to try and find a way to kill this underground monster.

[Crake]

Anyone like Torm or Sune then?

Torm's portfolio is somewhat divided by two close deities in my pantheon, LG and LN, though I haven't fully done either of them up just yet. Sune on the other hand, I have no particularly close analogue. The closest I have is a TN pair that focuses more on true love, rather than physical beauty, when it comes to straight up physical beauty, you end up moving to the CE hedonist deities. If you're wondering why the true love deity is TN and not some form of good, it's because true love has been the cause of both great good, and terrible evil in it's name, so I chose to leave it unaligned.

A lot of my work is half baked, but this (http://madius.wasd.net.au/doku.php?id=paragons:ne:antiochus_and_lilith) is an example of one I did up for a player who wanted to play an undead hunter following the evil deities of death.

[OldTrees1]

That's just it though. The code of the paladin is doing the right thing.

If you loose your powers for doing the right thing (not just what you want to be the right thing, but what is actually the right thing), it's the entity that took the powers that is in the wrong.

A paladin who is doing the right thing can never fall. Because it is only by doing the wrong thing that one ceases to be a paladin.

Usually true (depends on how the DM's world works). However irregardless of whether it is possible to lose your powers for doing the right thing, doing the right thing is a sufficient reason for choosing to lose your powers. Some might argue that doing the right thing is the only sufficient reason for anything.

[Afgncaap5]

I'd say that it's worth taking a cue from the old "lesser of two evils" saw, but bump it up a notch to make the paladin (or whatever) have to choose the "greater of two virtues." I once had a paladin fall when he chose to gain "the gift of knowledge" when he could have instead chosen to taken great energy and have it "flow back into the universe." I disagreed with the GM that my decision qualified as an evil act, but I definitely agree that it was the right *kind* of decision (and to my GM's credit, he talked to me after and said that if I didn't like the story we could handwave me back into my class features. I kept myself fallen... the blow was softened a bit by the fact that the "gift of knowledge" came in the form of enough XP to get two more levels of any class I wanted, including paladin.)

As a sidenote, I love character-arc discussion threads, so thanks. :-)

[OldTrees1]

I'd say that it's worth taking a cue from the old "lesser of two evils" saw, but bump it up a notch to make the paladin (or whatever) have to choose the "greater of two virtues."

This confuses me. The potential good a Paladin can do (there are 100+ people they could help for a day) greatly dwarfs the amount they can actually do (they can only help 1 person for a day per day). As such it is clearly morally permissible to do what they can actually do rather than do all they potentially could have done. Thus when presenting a greater of two virtues choice, are not both options good options?

[Crake]

This confuses me. The potential good a Paladin can do (there are 100+ people they could help for a day) greatly dwarfs the amount they can actually do (they can only help 1 person for a day per day). As such it is clearly morally permissible to do what they can actually do rather than do all they potentially could have done. Thus when presenting a greater of two virtues choice, are not both options good options?

I think it's more along the lines of if you can help two different people, you help the one who needs it more kind of thing

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is wrong, because the paladin's code is far too rigid to allow him to do the "right" thing at times without falling, because sometimes there is no "right" thing -- just less wrong.

Say, an amoral chthonic being that predates reality demands a sacrifice of a specific person, a girl, or it will destroy reality in a fit of pique. (The girl is a reincarnated soul of another such being, due to a cycle that occurs in the turning of the wheel of time. She is not innocent, but she's not a particularly bad person, either. She just had the horrible luck of being marked.) The sacrifice is definitely Evil with a capital E, but not doing so will result in everything being destroyed, including the girl.

Allowing reality to be destroyed is obviously not the right thing in any circumstance, unless the reality in question is simply too far gone down the alignment sewer to be redeemed. But which is worse, performing the sacrifice, or passively destroying everything that is and ever will be? Heck, even allowing the sacrifice to take place is turning a blind eye to a horribly Evil act, and not trying to stop it may very well force you to fall.

Sometimes an evil act is the right thing to do, even when it would be very, very wrong in practically every other possible scenario.

A good paladin tries to convince the girl to martyr herself for the greater good. If he fails, the universe is doomed but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

More importantly though, look just how contrived a scenario you had to pull out of your backside just to make it -look- like the paladin had no good choice.

This is also an argument that the paladin should be held responsible for the actions of some creature that was infinitely beyond his ability to control. Taking the entity at its word that it will spare reality if it is appeased is a leap of faith based on quite literally nothing. It's no different than acquiescing to a goblin with his knife at a child's throat.

You wouldn't prosecute a hostage negotiator for failing to keep a perpetrator from killing hostages, would you? You also wouldn't fire him for refusing to get the perpetrator a hellicopter. Increasing the scale doesn't change that. Appeasing some elder terror doesn't actually stop it from destroying reality. Nothing but the creature's own volition can do that.

Evil done by creatures that are not the paladin are not evil actions of the paladin, even when they are done in response to the paladin's actions.

[Rheios]

This may no longer be relevant to the conversation but I did want to point out that a Paladin wouldn't lose their powers for defying their god, even in the scenario described earlier. (Actually probably especially in that case. Protecting an innocent person who just happens to be part of a church that is the enemy of a church you belong to is very Paladin-esk.) So long as its actually for justice and righteousness a Paladin would pee in a god's cornflakes.

Additionally Kelb_Panthera has the right idea. Its the same concept as the "Demonic overlord killing innocents until the Paladin gives himself up". The Paladin isn't under any compulsion to give himself over, especially without the guarantee that the evil would actually stop. Stoically enduring the suffering in his name while working to overthrow the Overlord is just as good an option. Really in situations that are 'No win' like that, the Paladin almost CAN'T fall because either option is good. If the Paladin sacrifices himself to try and save innocents he's putting other's lives and safety before his own - Good. If the Paladin endures the potential cost to try and route the greater evil? He hasn't done anything wicked.The blood lies on his enemies hands. His efforts to stop them, and save all the future lives that could have been harmed, is Good too.
Paladin hard choices are most significant when its between an easy option that benefits them and the hard option that benefits others.

[LoyalPaladin]

Additionally Kelb_Panthera has the right idea. Its the same concept as the "Demonic overlord killing innocents until the Paladin gives himself up". The Paladin isn't under any compulsion to give himself over, especially without the guarantee that the evil would actually stop.
But I still would, because that's just who I am. If my existence being snuffed out is what would allow others to prosper, then so be it. I don't fear death. For when it is my time, my lord in Celestia will come for my soul. When it is not my time, my lord in Celestia will provide me light in the darkest places. Because that's where the light of Torm shines brightest.

[Rheios]

But I still would, because that's just who I am. If my existence being snuffed out is what would allow others to prosper, then so be it. I don't fear death. For when it is my time, my lord in Celestia will come for my soul. When it is not my time, my lord in Celestia will provide me light in the darkest places. Because that's where the light of Torm shines brightest.

Which is, I think, a perfect example of good. I, personally, would gird my loins and suffer what is done in my name, but is not of my own doing. The people may hate me, try to kill me on site (which I may run from but would not strike down an innocent for), but I would endure. Because it will simply exalt the cause of the Good and the Righteous that much more when that vile monster is struck down for his crimes. It will show that even in the darkest foes may be defeated. It will show that, by holding themselves to a set of standards, mere mortals can lay low fiends and gods for the betterment of their brothers and sisters. And it will show that the loss of those good men and women can have WORTH beyond blackmail. That their lives MEANT more than how they were used for, but that what they fell for wasn't without meaning. That, sometimes, our brothers and sisters sacrifices hold US up as more than we can even hold them up.

i.e. - Like I said, a Paladin isn't going to fall for picking a good choice, even if someone argues its a "less good" choice. Both decisions are valid here. Both are Good. (Especially because D&D is absolutist in morality and there's only really 2 ways to do that. 1 - Every action is taken of itself based on who the actor is themselves Or 2 - Reactions are considered and The DM has to map out and predict the far reaching factors of that actions until the very end of his world and decide if every action's tally added up to an increase of good or evil at the end. Needless to say the first is the only real option)

[Kelb_Panthera]

1 - Every action is taken of itself based on who the actor is themselves Or 2 - Reactions are considered and The DM has to map out and predict the far reaching factors of that actions until the very end of his world and decide if every action's tally added up to an increase of good or evil at the end. Needless to say the first is the only real option)

It has to be 1.

Logically, if you extend the consequences of any action far enough it will eventually run through the gamut of morality and ethics. Every action will eventually lead to good, evil, law, and chaos if you follow the chain far enough. That is, of course, if you ignore the agency of those creatures that are part of that chain. Because this is the case, you can only hold a character responsible for his own actions, else -every- action is evil. You also can't, generally, punish inaction either unless the consequences are immediate and obvious.

That is, failing to keep a hostage taker from harming his hostage(s) is not evil. Failing to try might be.

To the gobllin hostage taker, "Know this, foul cur, I will walk away now. I will let you go free. If, however, I return to find any harm has come to that child, nothing on Oerth will stop me from hunting you down like the dog you are and exacting righteous, divine retribution. I will drag your pathetic soul screaming into Baator if I have to open a gate and walk through it with you in my arms. Flee this place and pray to whatever foul power you care to that we never again cross paths." *Turns, walks out of the room*

The above is an example of a form of inaction that one certainly couldn't call evil; risky, certainly, but not evil.

[Belzyk]

This is wrong, because the paladin's code is far too rigid to allow him to do the "right" thing at times without falling, because sometimes there is no "right" thing -- just less wrong.

Say, an amoral chthonic being that predates reality demands a sacrifice of a specific person, a girl, or it will destroy reality in a fit of pique. (The girl is a reincarnated soul of another such being, due to a cycle that occurs in the turning of the wheel of time. She is not innocent, but she's not a particularly bad person, either. She just had the horrible luck of being marked.) The sacrifice is definitely Evil with a capital E, but not doing so will result in everything being destroyed, including the girl.

Allowing reality to be destroyed is obviously not the right thing in any circumstance, unless the reality in question is simply too far gone down the alignment sewer to be redeemed. But which is worse, performing the sacrifice, or passively destroying everything that is and ever will be? Heck, even allowing the sacrifice to take place is turning a blind eye to a horribly Evil act, and not trying to stop it may very well force you to fall.

Sometimes an evil act is the right thing to do, even when it would be very, very wrong in practically every other possible scenario.

In this circumstance the right thing is to let reality burn. Because if the option is to kill a kid or burn reality then reality is already to far gone to save. As the paladin in that situation I'd fight with every fiber of my being until the very fires of that being burned reality to nothing. A child's life is never worth sacrificing ever. Even a child of Asmodious himself. Least that's how I'd see it.

[Seto]

In this circumstance the right thing is to let reality burn. Because if the option is to kill a kid or burn reality then reality is already to far gone to save. As the paladin in that situation I'd fight with every fiber of my being until the very fires of that being burned reality to nothing. A child's life is never worth sacrificing ever. Even a child of Asmodious himself. Least that's how I'd see it.

Yes, if one thing is clear in the Paladin's morality, and the very reason their code contains "falls if willingly commits an evil act", is that the ends do not justify evil means. Ever. A Paladin knows that right is right, and finds consequentialism wanting.

If I were DM in the above case, I'd make the Paladin fall for sacrificing the girl, not for refusing to, whatever it led to. Now, the character (or player) might think that saving the world is worth falling for, and that's a good answer to the OP. It's not a decision that makes you Evil (I woudn't make anyone lose a Good alignment for taking that option under circumstances so dire), and it may even be morally defensible, but it's unambiguousy contrary to the way of the Paladin, so the fall would be logical.

[Vizzerdrix]

Fell from killing a deer to feed the party. Does that count?

[Belzyk]

Fell from killing a deer to feed the party. Does that count?

Ouch.... I mean did you trip or truly become a fallen paladin. I mean that's brutal

[Vizzerdrix]

Ouch.... I mean did you trip or truly become a fallen paladin. I mean that's brutal

Deer wasnt evil, so I fell. But it was okay! DM had a huge story planned out where Id get my powers back in time for the final showdown with the bbeg at level 20.

Thankfuĺy another party member got my throat cut for me a few sessions later though.

[Draconium]

Deer wasnt evil, so I fell. But it was okay! DM had a huge story planned out where Id get my powers back in time for the final showdown with the bbeg at level 20.

:smalleek: Okay, I've heard some horror stories about Paladins falling for stupid reasons, but this... This is one of, if not the most, idiotic reason for a Paladin's fall I have ever seen.

[Kelb_Panthera]

:smalleek: Okay, I've heard some horror stories about Paladins falling for stupid reasons, but this... This is one of, if not the most, idiotic reason for a Paladin's fall I have ever seen.

Couldn't agree more.

Is your DM a vegan or something, Viz?

[LoyalPaladin]

Couldn't agree more.
Yep. I probably would have walked. I mean, was your deity at least a nature deity or something? Even that'd be sketchy unless they were specifically the deity of wild deer or something...

[Vizzerdrix]

Same DM from way back in the day that thought drakes that got free 4d6 lightning cone attacks when they got struck was balanced at level 7. Either way we where young, dumb, and full of rum. I learned a lot from that DM, like seperating ones crunch from ones fluff (next character was fighter/cleric. Worked much better and didnt have that pesky code to deal with).

[Yael]

I always thought that if as a Paladin you would fall, it would be only for RP reasons, or an amazing ending.

Since I discovered the Death Knight from WoWRPG Dark Factions, and played WC3, falling should open new posibilities for RP, even if you are on a good party, being evil should be rewarding~

RP is fun~~ :smallbiggrin:

[LoyalPaladin]

(next character was fighter/cleric. Worked much better and didnt have that pesky code to deal with).
http://i.imgur.com/4HxIVbV.png

[OldTrees1]

http://i.imgur.com/4HxIVbV.png

Where is the base image from? My google fu only returns the meme.

[Red Fel]

http://i.imgur.com/4HxIVbV.png

You've been reusing this image a lot, LP. Lazy Paladin.

And we all know what laziness is.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tm5mUL0pB94/Vhb_H4Iy9jI/AAAAAAAAAeE/gPdxzjon9Gs/w426-h544/12074596_10207669779927393_9180803455742373379_n.j pg

[LoyalPaladin]

Where is the base image from? My google fu only returns the meme.
I think Warhammer 40k.


You've been reusing this image a lot, LP. Lazy Paladin.

And we all know what laziness is.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tm5mUL0pB94/Vhb_H4Iy9jI/AAAAAAAAAeE/gPdxzjon9Gs/w426-h544/12074596_10207669779927393_9180803455742373379_n.j pg
I used it twice! Both times it was appropriate. No one calls Snowbluff out for reusing the same Date A Live gifs over and over! D;

[Kelvarius]

I used it twice! Both times it was appropriate. No one calls Snowbluff out for reusing the same Date A Live gifs over and over! D;

Yes, but as a paladin, you're held to a higher standard. :smallwink:

[OldTrees1]

I think Warhammer 40k.

I was looking for the artist or something. I found this (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Sister-Raharu-98936620) but it was a dead end.