Polymorph Balance Question.

[Nefariis]

We have a table where we have a Moon Driud and a Sorc, both level 8.

The Moon Druid is Wild Shaping into CR2 creatures and the Sorc (war caster) is Twin Spelling 2 party members into CR 8 creatures - Needless to say, Moon Druid getting pissed.

Now the moon Druid will close the gap a little when he turns level 10 and gets to be a CR 5 Elemental .... but at that point the wizard will be turning two people into CR 10 beasts...

I saw someone on another board that goes by CR only, which is HD divided by 4 rounded down - which seems like better balance to me.

I just dont see game balancing when one person can essentially create two CR 10 beasts which could easily take out a party of four level 10 players.

Am I missing something? I feel like this should be erratad as it's one of the Moon Druid's only Shtick and the Sorc is currently 800% better at it.

[Shaofoo]

One thing to note is how the Sorcerer is transforming players into T-Rexes. Did they see T-Rexes before or did the players just crack open the MM and chose from there?

Also the Sorcerer can only do his trick once per long rest and while also using up 5 sorcery points while the druid can do his schtick multiple times a short rest.

Also what other CR 10 beasts are there, unless you are making beasts at will for your players.

[hymer]

Am I missing something? I feel like this should be erratad as it's one of the Moon Druid's only Shtick and the Sorc is currently 800% better at it.

First thing I think you're missing in this equation is Concentration. The only RAW way of knocking a moon druid out of wild shape is to knock it down to 0 hp. Polymorph drops when you lose Concentration, or when it gets dispelled somehow. It also means you can't use your Concentration for anything else.

Second thing is what's lost. Beasts have lousy mental stats (and thus lousy mental saves), which don't apply to wild shaping moon druids. Polymorphed T-rexes and Giant Apes (there really aren't that many high CR beasts; I can't think of one of CR 10 off-hand) are brutes. If you roleplay them even half-way appropriately, they have very severe limitations on what they could reasonably do beyond crush-kill-destroy. Wave bye to any skills you're proficient in. And you don't get to use any other abilities you might have. The moon druid still gets to use their feats, their attacks count as magical for overcoming damage resistance and immunity, and they can use the quick switches and self-heals of Combat Shape - all courtesy of not losing their personal skills in wild shape.

Third thing is that moon druids are full casters. At level 8, their wild shape ability is probably at the lowest point in its power curve it will get compared to the curve of spellcasting. The moon druid should simply shift focus to casting around level 8. Do BC or Conjure X, and save your wild shape for an emergency hp cushion or utility purposes.

[PaxZRake]

The Moon Druid could take Polymorph as well.

[hymer]

The Moon Druid could take Polymorph as well.

Quite true, but s/he can't twin it like the sorcerer. But from level 9, the druid can do better, I should say. Conjure an Elemental. You don't lose the effect of the target of the Polymorph, and you gain a minion that could probably take a T-rex in a slugging match about 50% of the time due to its damage resistance.

Edit: Actually, the T-rex can't focus both its attacks on the elemental, on second thought. It's odds are likely lower.

[BiPolar]

Quite true, but s/he can't twin it like the sorcerer. But from level 9, the druid can do better, I should say. Conjure an Elemental. You don't lose the effect of the target of the Polymorph, and you gain a minion that could probably take a T-rex due to its damage resistance.

Exactly. The issues of concentration and resource use that Sorcerer Polymorph requires/costs are big. That's like having an issue with a Paladin's Divine Smite Nova Damage vs a fighter.

[SharkForce]

polymorph is on the druid's spell list too. if the druid wants to polymorph into CR 8 creatures, that option is available.

wild shape is more interesting for a variety of reasons. you keep your own mental stats, save proficiencies, skill proficiencies, *understand languages*, and can use it 2 times per short rest without concentration and without spending spell slots as compared to 2 times per day, requiring concentration. also, the moon druid can wild shape as a bonus action, and can heal as a bonus action.

furthermore, the sorcerer spell list, and especially spells known, is microscopically tiny compared to the druid. the sorcerer gets this trick, and a handful of others, and that is it, and can only change it up at a new level. the druid gets wild shape *added* on top of having an absolutely amazing spell list and vastly superior spells known.

also, as far as beasts are concerned, CR goes up to 8 and then, well... sure you can turn into a CR 10 beast. too bad none of those exist.

anyways, as has been noted, the moon druid is also a full spellcaster. before turning into a CR 2 creature, the druid should be doing things like summoning a pack of wolves, or casting moonbeam and using that to damage groups of enemies.

that said, if you feel like polymorph is too strong, the suggested nerf i've seen is to allow polymorphing the targets into beasts of a CR of 4, and casting it from a higher level spell slot increases allowed CR by 1 per level.

but seriously, the druid should not be expecting to outdo the sorcerer's most powerful limited-use abilities with wild shape.

(also, you appear to be misunderstanding the encounter difficulty table... a "deadly" encounter is not a TPK threat, generally speaking. well, it probably is at level 1, but then again almost anything is a TPK threat at level 1. a "deadly" encounter is designed to be dangerous enough that it might be lethal one of the PCs, *if* they aren't smart about how they deal with it).

[Nefariis]

Still not convinced.

At level 10, the Sorc can do this twice per day, at most you usually get 3-4 combats a day - So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.

Now, Im purely speaking from a combat perspective mind you, but the Druid is feeling fairly worthless in combat, and the DM now has to prepare encounters that are levels ahead of everyone else, which actually makes the Druid even less cool because now he is a CR2 (40 hp 12 ac) Beast that now has to face CR 10+ creatures to account for the two CR 8's now in the group.

I don't want to sound like I'm QQing - I'm just normally the DM, and I finally get to play, and I hate seeing people this far in want to change characters or dislike coming to the game night.

[tieren]

Still not convinced.

At level 10, the Sorc can do this twice per day, at most you usually get 3-4 combats a day - So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.

Now, Im purely speaking from a combat perspective mind you, but the Druid is feeling fairly worthless in combat, and the DM now has to prepare encounters that are levels ahead of everyone else, which actually makes the Druid even less cool because now he is a CR2 (40 hp 12 ac) Beast that now has to face CR 10+ creatures to account for the two CR 8's now in the group.

I don't want to sound like I'm QQing - I'm just normally the DM, and I finally get to play, and I hate seeing people this far in want to change characters or dislike coming to the game night.

I'm kind of surprised your party has a couple of PCs who want to fight as beasts instead of level 10 PCs.

[Shaofoo]

Still not convinced.

At level 10, the Sorc can do this twice per day, at most you usually get 3-4 combats a day - So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.

Now, Im purely speaking from a combat perspective mind you, but the Druid is feeling fairly worthless in combat, and the DM now has to prepare encounters that are levels ahead of everyone else, which actually makes the Druid even less cool because now he is a CR2 (40 hp 12 ac) Beast that now has to face CR 10+ creatures to account for the two CR 8's now in the group.

Maybe you could mention what kind of monsters they would actually transform into. You curiously mention that they transform into CR 8 beasts without mentioning what the beasts are. The only CR 8 beasts that I know off is a T-Rex and if I was the DM and T-Rexes weren't part of my world I would mention how would they know of such a creature. Note that you could make your own CR 10 beast so it isn't an impossible venture but as it stands T-Rexes are as good as it gets without making your own.

If you want an easy way to deal with sudden T-Rexes, introduce terrain and ambushes and maybe even add some flying monsters. Your druid can fly while the T-Rex can't. In fact a T-Rex has zero ranged spells (at least the normal guys all have one way to deal with ranged threats). Instead of just piling on the difficulty by adding more monsters why not be more creative in placement and type of enemy.

[Nefariis]

Would having a house rule that changes level into CR (Level/4 = CR) rounded up or down, seem reasonable? it lets the druid feel cool again and the sorc can already do incredible things even without polymorph. Also as a bonus, the DM can stop throwing these higher level monsters at us.

We just got to level 8, so 2 times twin spelled - And why not, insta meat shield?

[MrFahrenheit]

I would have FUN with this sorc. - remember that the moon Druid gets to keep his mental stats. Those two t-rexes don't. Enjoy!

In my campaign, the party only polymorphs enemies; in a battle vs two giants, they turned one giant into a chicken, stunned the other giant, then shoved the chicken down its throat. On "death," it reverted back to its giant form, splitting his buddy apart. Insta-death.

In another instance, they polymorphed a BBEG into a chicken, had the barbarian toss it as high up as he could, peppered it with arrows to revert it, then let it fall from like 100 feet.

Anyhow, after letting the fun ensue with two t rexes behaving as they SHOULD, hopefully your sorc will realize that the spell isn't just a buff!

[BiPolar]

Still not convinced.

At level 10, the Sorc can do this twice per day, at most you usually get 3-4 combats a day - So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.

As has been stated, there is no CR10 beast. CR8 is the highest they go. Secondly, at level 10, they can cast polymorph 3 times/day. They can only twin it once, leaving just 2 sorcery points to get through the rest of the day. So this doubling only happens once and at great cost. Hell, they can also cast two of their party to be Greater Invisible for the same cost. Sorcerers have limited spells known and limited points to use. Choosing polymorph is a big choice (when things like greater invisible, banishment, dimension door, etc. are available) and using up 80% of your sorcerer points on one encounter is also a huge cost. And if the DM is giving free passes to those casting spells in the back, then they aren't doing their job as DMs very well. The whole point of a caster is not to get hit. If the enemies aren't trying to take them out...



Now, Im purely speaking from a combat perspective mind you, but the Druid is feeling fairly worthless in combat, and the DM now has to prepare encounters that are levels ahead of everyone else, which actually makes the Druid even less cool because now he is a CR2 (40 hp 12 ac) Beast that now has to face CR 10+ creatures to account for the two CR 8's now in the group.

At level 10, the druid can become an elemental. That's enormous. At concentration cost. On top of that, they can cast some amazing AoE spells (Wall of Fire, watery sphere, ice storm, control water, etc. etc.) and still have the majority of their spell slots and abilities available.

You are looking at this one-off and very costly example of twinned polymorph and comparing it against a normal attack or ability by a Druid. As I suggested before, this is like saying paladins outclass fighters at fighting because they have a nova opportunity.

[Segev]

Increase the chances for short rests, and point out that the druid can go into wild shape with a Concentration spell active. That means he can have a spell running that the sorcerer cannot. The druid, despite being a "weaker" creature than his buddies, is still a more durable tank because he has to be knocked out of it twice before his own hp are even vulnerable.

The druid's forms are versatility, not just combat power, too. Remind him to use them as go-to tools for non-combat problems. Scouting as a fox or a bird is perfectly viable, and then shifting to a combat form after reporting to your friends, and then short resting, is valid. Not necessarily the best tactic, since short resting after every combat is a bit overkill, but it's a possibility.

In short: wild shape is a different tool than polymorph, despite the cosmetic similarity. Look at its strengths, in particular how often it can be done (2x per short rest), and figure out ways to use it that polymorph would be "wasted" on.

[BiPolar]

Would having a house rule that changes level into CR (Level/4 = CR) rounded up or down, seem reasonable? it lets the druid feel cool again and the sorc can already do incredible things even without polymorph. Also as a bonus, the DM can stop throwing these higher level monsters at us.

We just got to level 8, so 2 times twin spelled - And why not, insta meat shield?

I would not nerf the sorcerer's already limited options. The Druid can do a LOT of very cool things spell=wise and wild shape wise.

And at level 8, the sorcerer has only 8 sorcery points. If he does this ONCE, then he's used up ALL his points for one encounter. It should be an amazing thing if he's expending 100% of his resources at one time :D

[hymer]

At level 10, the Sorc can do this twice per day, at most you usually get 3-4 combats a day

DMG p. 84 suggests six to eight encounters per adventuring day. Throw in some non-combat encounters where the dinosaurs are irrelevant at best, or just something that eats up the Polymorph duration.


- So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.

Not impossible, but not guaranteed, either. Target the unarmed spellcaster already.
What CR 10? Is there some whale I'm not aware of? Is there some beast mightier than the T-rex? And is there room for beings that big in the dungeons you run?


Now, Im purely speaking from a combat perspective mind you, but the Druid is feeling fairly worthless in combat, and the DM now has to prepare encounters that are levels ahead of everyone else, which actually makes the Druid even less cool because now he is a CR2 (40 hp 12 ac) Beast that now has to face CR 10+ creatures to account for the two CR 8's now in the group.

Why is the druid complaining about wildshape not cutting it at this level? Use something that works. You don't keep casting Sleep from a first level slot, either. Why would a power available twice per short rest be able to compete with something available once or twice per day and with numerous drawbacks?
Don't fixate on wild shape being competitive with the highest level spells available. It swings in power, and the moon druid is now paying for the enormous power s/he had at level 2. Except s/he's got 4th level spells to use, and soon 5th.

[rhouck]

I would not nerf the sorcerer's already limited options. The Druid can do a LOT of very cool things spell=wise and wild shape wise.

Absolutely this. If the druid is complaining about being inferior from a power perspective when compared to a SORCERER, he absolutely sucks at playing his class. A druid (even a moon druid) should be doing a lot more than just shifting into a bear and auto-attacking every combat...

[MrFahrenheit]

Are the two characters being turned into t rexes both male? If so then perhaps, after killing the nearest enemy, they get into a battle over whose territory it is...with each other. Or they attempt to eat the party. You don't have to nerf anything.

[SharkForce]

I would not nerf the sorcerer's already limited options. The Druid can do a LOT of very cool things spell=wise and wild shape wise.

And at level 8, the sorcerer has only 8 sorcery points. If he does this ONCE, then he's used up ALL his points for one encounter. It should be an amazing thing if he's expending 100% of his resources at one time :D

twin costs 1 SP per spell level.

he can do it twice. but apart from that, i have to agree: the sorcerer does not get a lot of tricks, the druid gets a bunch of tricks he can do in addition to being wild shaped.

[BiPolar]

twin costs 1 SP per spell level.

he can do it twice. but apart from that, i have to agree: the sorcerer does not get a lot of tricks, the druid gets a bunch of tricks he can do in addition to being wild shaped.

Whoops! I read that wrong, you are right. It'd be 4 points, which would halve my percentage values. Still an enormous cost for basically 1 or 2 encounters.

And yes, the Druid has a lot more options in both combat and out. Sorcerer's are powerful, but limited.

[Nefariis]

Fair enough guys -

I just wanted to make sure everything looked fair and legit - on paper it seemed a little off to me (but that's why I come here for clarification :smallsmile: ) .

I will bring some of these ideas to the Druid as well as the chicken idea to the sorc (too me that sounds way cooler).

As a side note, the players were increasing the CR of the animals they wanted to polymorph into to match their level

[Segev]

Are the two characters being turned into t rexes both male? If so then perhaps, after killing the nearest enemy, they get into a battle over whose territory it is...with each other. Or they attempt to eat the party. You don't have to nerf anything.

That is a nerf. The spell specifies they keep their personalities. All that changes is their numeric mental ability scores. This doesn't force a behavior on them. It has numeric effects in the game. That's all it does, mechanically.

[Lolzyking]

You just have to have a sorc step on a trap, take a hit, or suffer an aoe save or suck to wreck their concentration.

the second they fail their con save the guys they turned into t rex's would be come human sized mid air about 13 feet up due to the height of their previous form, take 1d6-2d6 fall damage and land prone.

[Segev]

You just have to have a sorc step on a trap, take a hit, or suffer an aoe save or suck to wreck their concentration.

the second they fail their con save the guys they turned into t rex's would be come human sized mid air about 13 feet up due to the height of their previous form, take 1d6-2d6 fall damage and land prone.

This is not part of the rules. All the rules say is that they change back. There is nothing indicating they would be further off the ground than they were when they were big.

[BiPolar]

That is a nerf. The spell specifies they keep their personalities. All that changes is their numeric mental ability scores. This doesn't force a behavior on them. It has numeric effects in the game. That's all it does, mechanically.

It keeps their personalities and alignment, but the rest of stat block is the animal. They know who their friends are, but that's kind of it (or how I've played it). Put in an event that the baser animal would respond to and RP-wise they should.

[Mellack]

Still not convinced.

So twice per day the Sorc can turn two people into CR10's and wreck fools and with the war caster feat, maintaining concentration is not impossible if he stays near the back.


What CR 10 beasts can they change into? There are none.

The Sorc might be able to hold concentration, but that also means they can't cast any other concentration spell.

[Segev]

It keeps their personalities and alignment, but the rest of stat block is the animal. They know who their friends are, but that's kind of it (or how I've played it). Put in an event that the baser animal would respond to and RP-wise they should.

Is it in their personality and alignment to attack a friend over "territory" that neither of them have actually claimed? Probably not.

[BiPolar]

Is it in their personality and alignment to attack a friend over "territory" that neither of them have actually claimed? Probably not.

Depends on their personalities :) But I think we're arguing over specifics rather than the idea that there could be triggers introduced that will impact the action. These are just beasts that aren't so smart. My closest approximation for how I roleplay it is a non-speaking Grimlock. Autobots are their 'friends' but there are times when they would attack them.

[Nefariis]

We upped the CR of current beasts - Bear, Wolf, Spider, Octopus, etc.

The spell states that you turn into "any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less" than your current CR/level.

So pick any beast, make it the proper CR, then you are "any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less". There is an online webpage that helps with upping CR's.

CR8 DireWolf's, Brown Bear's, Giant Octopus.

[BiPolar]

We upped the CR of current beasts - Bear, Wolf, Spider, etc.

The spell states that you turn into "any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less" than your current CR/level.

So pick any beast, make it the proper CR, then you are "any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less". There is an online webpage that helps with upping CR's.

Absolutely possible, but do so at your own risk as DM. Those are homebrew creatures and may break things more than "fix" things. Maybe there's a reason beasts don't go beyond CR8? :D

[Nefariis]

I told the DM he should at least let the Druid go to CR2 DireWolf/BrownBear

[BiPolar]

I told the DM he should at least let the Druid go to CR2 DireWolf/BrownBear

And here I thought we had convinced you it wasn't broken :/

[Nefariis]

I told him yesterday - You guys are just convincing me today :smallsmile:.

[Segev]

Depends on their personalities :) But I think we're arguing over specifics rather than the idea that there could be triggers introduced that will impact the action. These are just beasts that aren't so smart. My closest approximation for how I roleplay it is a non-speaking Grimlock. Autobots are their 'friends' but there are times when they would attack them.

That's the thing. Grimlock fights them because he's belligerent, not because he is stupid. You're suggesting that the spell do something it explicitly says it does not: change their personalities. The goal you obviously have is to punish the players for using the spell in this fashion, in an effort to balance it.

The spell doesn't say you can do that. If you don't think it's balanced, modify the spell, but don't pretend you're not doing so. I think "you lose control of your character and become a detriment to the party" is always bad balance. It may not be bad FLAVOR, but it's bad BALANCE. And your goal is very clearly to balance what you feel is an overpowered spell, not to introduce flavor that has been suggested to be lacking.

[HarrisonF]

Have the druid cast Conjure Woodland Beings and summon 8 pixies. Then he gets to cast polymorph 8 times for one spell. It will definitely be better than the only two that the Sorcerer can do.


But seriously, you can't compare Wildshape and Polymorph. They are fundamentally very different abilities with pros and cons for each.

[Vogonjeltz]

We have a table where we have a Moon Driud and a Sorc, both level 8.

The Moon Druid is Wild Shaping into CR2 creatures and the Sorc (war caster) is Twin Spelling 2 party members into CR 8 creatures - Needless to say, Moon Druid getting pissed.

Now the moon Druid will close the gap a little when he turns level 10 and gets to be a CR 5 Elemental .... but at that point the wizard will be turning two people into CR 10 beasts...

I saw someone on another board that goes by CR only, which is HD divided by 4 rounded down - which seems like better balance to me.

I just dont see game balancing when one person can essentially create two CR 10 beasts which could easily take out a party of four level 10 players.

Am I missing something? I feel like this should be erratad as it's one of the Moon Druid's only Shtick and the Sorc is currently 800% better at it.

You're comparing a single short rest regained resource (Wild Shape) against two long rest resources (sorcery points and spell slots).


4 level 10 players would (and should) obliterate 2 CR 10 creatures, easily.

[Malifice]

We have a table where we have a Moon Driud and a Sorc, both level 8.

The Moon Druid is Wild Shaping into CR2 creatures and the Sorc (war caster) is Twin Spelling 2 party members into CR 8 creatures - Needless to say, Moon Druid getting pissed.

The druid can do it 2 times per short rest. So 6-8 times per long rest on average.

The sorcerer gets to do it twice per long rest and each use lasts only an hour. It uses up both of his 4th level slots and all 8 of his Sorcery points to do so (and it uses his concentration slot). His party members are deprived of their class features while polymorphed, cant speak or cast spells, and basically get a hit point buffer and a decent multiattack option while polymorphed in exchange as long as the Sorcerer maintains concentration.

Im not seeing it.

Unless your DM doesnt know how to police the 5 minute adventuring day, and ignores the 6-8/ 2 short rest encounter recomendation, in which case you have bigger problems.


Have the druid cast Conjure Woodland Beings and summon 8 pixies.

The DM has control over what gets summoned, and what the summoned creatures do.

Assuming you get pixies, theyre just as likely to polymorph hald the party into cats, and the monsters into mice... barring some very specific orders to the contrary.

Because... pixies.

[BiPolar]

That's the thing. Grimlock fights them because he's belligerent, not because he is stupid. You're suggesting that the spell do something it explicitly says it does not: change their personalities. The goal you obviously have is to punish the players for using the spell in this fashion, in an effort to balance it.

The spell doesn't say you can do that. If you don't think it's balanced, modify the spell, but don't pretend you're not doing so. I think "you lose control of your character and become a detriment to the party" is always bad balance. It may not be bad FLAVOR, but it's bad BALANCE. And your goal is very clearly to balance what you feel is an overpowered spell, not to introduce flavor that has been suggested to be lacking.

Easy there. All I said was that's how I play polymorph has a character. I take my base instincts as that animal and combine with who I know are friends. I just think it's kind of fun to play it like that. If it brought my ability scores over with my personality, I'd play it purely as me in that animal form, but I kind of like this fluff for it. Another example (with a non-belligerent character) may be when in The Magicians they polymorph into their goose/fox forms. Still their personality, but with some very strong animal instincts going on.

My goal wasn't to balance an OP spell (because I don't think it's OP), but to give the spell some fun flavor as a PC.

[RickAllison]

Easy there. All I said was that's how I play polymorph has a character. I take my base instincts as that animal and combine with who I know are friends. I just think it's kind of fun to play it like that. If it brought my ability scores over with my personality, I'd play it purely as me in that animal form, but I kind of like this fluff for it. Another example (with a non-belligerent character) may be when in The Magicians they polymorph into their goose/fox forms. Still their personality, but with some very strong animal instincts going on.

My goal wasn't to balance an OP spell (because I don't think it's OP), but to give the spell some fun flavor as a PC.

In a campaign I'm in, we ended up fighting a weakened kraken at level 8. If my character hadn't spent most of his turns rescuing overboard sailors, I was planning to have him Polymorphed into a Giant Shark. Giant Sharks have 2 or less Intelligence. The kraken charms aquatic creatures with 2 or less Int and makes them aggressive to intruders. I'm sure you can see where this lack of metagaming was going to lead to...

[BiPolar]

In a campaign I'm in, we ended up fighting a weakened kraken at level 8. If my character hadn't spent most of his turns rescuing overboard sailors, I was planning to have him Polymorphed into a Giant Shark. Giant Sharks have 2 or less Intelligence. The kraken charms aquatic creatures with 2 or less Int and makes them aggressive to intruders. I'm sure you can see where this lack of metagaming was going to lead to...

That would have been awesome!

[RickAllison]

That would have been awesome!

Indeed! Especially since the only other person who could have damaged the kraken at that point was wounded and in the water...

[BiPolar]

Indeed! Especially since the only other person who could have damaged the kraken at that point was wounded and in the water...

One of your chums?

[tieren]

Have the druid cast Conjure Woodland Beings and summon 8 pixies. Then he gets to cast polymorph 8 times for one spell. It will definitely be better than the only two that the Sorcerer can do.


But seriously, you can't compare Wildshape and Polymorph. They are fundamentally very different abilities with pros and cons for each.

While I generally object to pixie cheese, I think I would do this once or twice to help put things back in perspective. If the druid is feeling down because the sorcerer can polymorph a couple of team mates, let him summon 8 pixies, have 4 of them polymorph the party into giant apes and the other 4 cast fly on them so instead of 2 t-rexes from the sorcerer you have 4 flying giant apes from the druid. He shouldn't complain again.

[Segev]

The DM has control over what gets summoned, and what the summoned creatures do.

Assuming you get pixies, theyre just as likely to polymorph hald the party into cats, and the monsters into mice... barring some very specific orders to the contrary.

Because... pixies.This is not what the spell says. I know there's apparently some word-from-the-author that this is what he meant it to do, but even that's vague and unfocused from what I've seen. (Along the lines of, "He SAID he meant for people to get their meal chosen by the chef! See, right here, where he says 'Yeah, sure,' to somebody asking if the coupon might have the chef's choice option!") But a) even if you accept that that's what he meant and said, it's not what the spell says, and b) it makes the spell ludicrously worthless to read it that way, because it either winds up being "the DM gives you what you want, because he's not trying to prove your class abilities are useless or counterproductive," or "the DM laughs at you for thinking your spells should be useful, and delights in making them at best a waste of time and resources, and potentially a way to screw you over even harder."

In other words: the spell doesn't say it acts like that, and if it did, it would be a badly-designed spell.


Easy there. All I said was that's how I play polymorph has a character. I take my base instincts as that animal and combine with who I know are friends. I just think it's kind of fun to play it like that. If it brought my ability scores over with my personality, I'd play it purely as me in that animal form, but I kind of like this fluff for it. Another example (with a non-belligerent character) may be when in The Magicians they polymorph into their goose/fox forms. Still their personality, but with some very strong animal instincts going on.

My goal wasn't to balance an OP spell (because I don't think it's OP), but to give the spell some fun flavor as a PC.Ah, fair enough. Usually, these things come up in the context of advice on how a DM should enforce the spell being run. Which I still see the context as, so even if I misread it, I assume others will, too, so I appreciate the clarification.

[Zalabim]

The benefit of being polymorphed has to be compared to what you could be doing anyway so it can be compared with the benefits of casting a different spell instead. If your party already has good fight-y type characters, they probably benefit more from Haste or Greater Invisibility. Polymorph stands out where the extra HP is useful and where it can be used on PCs that don't have good combat options to begin with. PCs generally have some abilities that are useful in adventuring that beasts lack, and aren't far off from their level in CR equivalency, depending on build and level.

You could turn the paladin and rogue, or barbarian and fighter, or cleric and wizard into a pair of T-rexes, but there's a trade-off for doing that, both in terms of inaccessible abilities, and spells you could have used instead.

[SharkForce]

The benefit of being polymorphed has to be compared to what you could be doing anyway so it can be compared with the benefits of casting a different spell instead. If your party already has good fight-y type characters, they probably benefit more from Haste or Greater Invisibility. Polymorph stands out where the extra HP is useful and where it can be used on PCs that don't have good combat options to begin with. PCs generally have some abilities that are useful in adventuring that beasts lack, and aren't far off from their level in CR equivalency, depending on build and level.

You could turn the paladin and rogue, or barbarian and fighter, or cleric and wizard into a pair of T-rexes, but there's a trade-off for doing that, both in terms of inaccessible abilities, and spells you could have used instead.

eh, that's pretty doubtful. at least, not when polymorph first becomes available.

a CR 7 beast is more powerful than a level 7 fighter in a fight, generally speaking. now, if you're talking about being able to turn into a CR 7 beast vs a level 15 character, then sure... polymorph isn't worth as much as other things, generally. right when you first get it, there is no such thing as a more powerful combat buff (unless you want to consider possibly using polymorph combined with using, say, fabricate to make them some plate barding or something).

[JackPhoenix]

Easy there. All I said was that's how I play polymorph has a character. I take my base instincts as that animal and combine with who I know are friends. I just think it's kind of fun to play it like that. If it brought my ability scores over with my personality, I'd play it purely as me in that animal form, but I kind of like this fluff for it. Another example (with a non-belligerent character) may be when in The Magicians they polymorph into their goose/fox forms. Still their personality, but with some very strong animal instincts going on.

My goal wasn't to balance an OP spell (because I don't think it's OP), but to give the spell some fun flavor as a PC.

I'd say that make sense. However, you could run into problems with twinned polymorph...even as a T-rex, you know Fred the Fighter is your friend...but you don't see Fred the Fighter, you see another Tyrannosaurus, and you're no longer smart enough to realise they are one and the same. To your polymorphed brain, it's likely a new threat you haven't noticed before.

You still know who your friends and enemies are, but this one? You don't know what to thnk of it, and confused animals usualy default to fight-or-flight behavior.

[jas61292]

This is not what the spell says. I know there's apparently some word-from-the-author that this is what he meant it to do, but even that's vague and unfocused from what I've seen. (Along the lines of, "He SAID he meant for people to get their meal chosen by the chef! See, right here, where he says 'Yeah, sure,' to somebody asking if the coupon might have the chef's choice option!") But a) even if you accept that that's what he meant and said, it's not what the spell says, and b) it makes the spell ludicrously worthless to read it that way, because it either winds up being "the DM gives you what you want, because he's not trying to prove your class abilities are useless or counterproductive," or "the DM laughs at you for thinking your spells should be useful, and delights in making them at best a waste of time and resources, and potentially a way to screw you over even harder."

Well, actually, the only thing in the spell that indicates creature choice at all would lean towards the DM choosing. It says you choose a category, but it says nothing about you choosing creatures. And it explicitly says that the DM has the creature's stats. Is it ambiguous? Absolutely. But does anything indicate you get to choose exactly what creatures you want. Not at all.

Obviously this make the spell power DM dependent, but it also makes it not stupidly broken. A good DM makes this a good spell. A bad DM makes this bad (or broken). But there are greater things to worry about with a bad DM.

[Zalabim]

eh, that's pretty doubtful. at least, not when polymorph first becomes available.

a CR 7 beast is more powerful than a level 7 fighter in a fight, generally speaking. now, if you're talking about being able to turn into a CR 7 beast vs a level 15 character, then sure... polymorph isn't worth as much as other things, generally. right when you first get it, there is no such thing as a more powerful combat buff (unless you want to consider possibly using polymorph combined with using, say, fabricate to make them some plate barding or something).

I would hope so. I'm talking about a level 7 fighter with a different buff than polymorph being your alternative. There's Greater Invisibility or Haste as other great combat buffs to compare it to.

[Garresh]

Double-T is a fun strategy. But even in combat you're seeing higher utility for a druid. My advice is one of the following. Either dip paladin so he can dire smite people with his divine bites, or focus on the strengths of wild shape.

Specifically, you can concentrate and sustain spells in wild shape, and utilize your superior mental stats and skills. Due to the way grapple works, a druid can skill Athletics and cast Enhance Strength, then wild shape. For almost no effort, a measly cr2 bear can actually shove and grapple almost anything. Or you could cast Maelstrom and sustain it while dragging victims into it. Force an enemy to choose between sitting in the Maelstrom, or running past a bear eating opportunity attacks.

Another option is to cast stoneskin and take the form of a giant eagle, grappling key enemies before ascending straight up. Your health is low, but your resistances and combat healing compensate it.

The rexes have damage, but you can make a heavily armored flying grappler who regenerates and drops enemies to their doom for 20d6 damage.

I mean you could even use that concurrently with the dinos. Fly past the enemy bruisers to grab casters and archers, then deliver them to your pets.

[SharkForce]

I would hope so. I'm talking about a level 7 fighter with a different buff than polymorph being your alternative. There's Greater Invisibility or Haste as other great combat buffs to compare it to.

as noted, polymorph does more than just buff their attacks, though. it makes every attack used against the polymorphed creature basically do nothing. that is the key part of what makes polymorph good. not the slightly higher damage. even greater invisibility only makes someone less likely to hit you... any hit that actually lands still does something. with polymorph, they're not hitting the character, they're hitting the giant ape suit the character is wearing. the character underneath is completely unharmed (and also, the giant ape suit is indeed quite giant, and blocks off a much larger front line than a regular medium-sized fighter).

increasing damage is not really your best use for spells. i mean, you can certainly do it, but you could've increased the party's damage more effectively by just adding another barbarian or something instead. you use spells to control the flow of the battle so that the fighters are not overwhelmed. polymorph does that by giving a 150 HP buffer the enemies have to chew through. haste? not so much.

[Segev]

Well, actually, the only thing in the spell that indicates creature choice at all would lean towards the DM choosing. It says you choose a category, but it says nothing about you choosing creatures. And it explicitly says that the DM has the creature's stats. Is it ambiguous? Absolutely. But does anything indicate you get to choose exactly what creatures you want. Not at all.

Obviously this make the spell power DM dependent, but it also makes it not stupidly broken. A good DM makes this a good spell. A bad DM makes this bad (or broken). But there are greater things to worry about with a bad DM.

If you apply this logic consistently to all spells which similarly do not specify that the caster chooses the end results, but only gives the caster the ability to choose "a category," then fabricate only allows the caster to choose the material; the spell, by your logic, "lean[s] towards the DM choosing" what the actual products are. It doesn't say the caster can choose the products. So clearly, the caster can target some wood, but it's up to the DM whether the wood turns into a ladder, a carving of a local mayor, a pile of toothpicks, or a suit of wooden plate mail.

Prestidigitation also says you can create small objects, but not that you can choose what htey are. So the caster just has to keep creating things until the DM decides to give him what he's looking for, I guess.

And all of the illusion spells only say you get to create an image of an object, or an object, creature, or phenomenon. So clearly, the caster chooses "object," "creature," or "phenomenon," and then the DM chooses what the illusion actually is of. Too bad if you wanted an illusion of a wall to cover the hallway down which your party is hiding: the DM decided you got an illusion of an end table carved in 15th-century French decorative fashion.

All the "DM has the stats" means is that the stats are not in the PHB. Ordering the "entree and side" combo at a restaurant doesn't mean you don't get to pick whether you get the Chicken Marsala or the Eggplant Parmesan just because the chef has the recipe; it means that you don't have to have to look up the recipe yourself; just name what you want and the chef will make it for you.

[BiPolar]

I'd say that make sense. However, you could run into problems with twinned polymorph...even as a T-rex, you know Fred the Fighter is your friend...but you don't see Fred the Fighter, you see another Tyrannosaurus, and you're no longer smart enough to realise they are one and the same. To your polymorphed brain, it's likely a new threat you haven't noticed before.

You still know who your friends and enemies are, but this one? You don't know what to thnk of it, and confused animals usualy default to fight-or-flight behavior.

Very good point and a great way to play it :)

[Gort]

I'd say that make sense. However, you could run into problems with twinned polymorph...even as a T-rex, you know Fred the Fighter is your friend...but you don't see Fred the Fighter, you see another Tyrannosaurus, and you're no longer smart enough to realise they are one and the same. To your polymorphed brain, it's likely a new threat you haven't noticed before.

You still know who your friends and enemies are, but this one? You don't know what to thnk of it, and confused animals usualy default to fight-or-flight behavior.

I agree and this is how I am playing it in my game. The T-Rex doesn't know what that new conjured animals is. It really doesn't think about party cohesion as it moves around.
The players have to be very careful about how they manage it.
The druid of course was speaking with it. So I decided that a T-Rex only understood 3 concepts "eat", "pain", "mine" and had some sense of direction and an awareness of who was in his pack.

Lots of fun, very effective.

A good choice for a caster who is out of other resources.

Not a bad option if you are missing a player for a session - turn them into an NPC.

[YCombinator]

tl;dr Have more combats per long rest.

Of all the characters to be able to complain about balance negatively effecting them, the Moon Druid is the last one I'm going to listen to. The Moon Druid is potentially the most overpowered level 2 character option in the game.

I'm not one to complain about balance. WotC does an okay job but quite frankly it's not even a strong goal. Some character classes are just more powerful and certain levels. But if we're talking about a player complaining about balance, the Moon Druid is just not allowed.

The major difference is that the Moon Druid gets their feature twice per short rest and polymorph is using up a long-rest spell slot. If your sorcerer is dipping Warlock we might have another issue I suppose. You could balance this out by having more combats per long rest. If you are having one combat per day and allowing a long rest in between each, that's fine if your players are okay with it. But you will definitely disadvantage any character class with strong short-rest abilities like the Druid, Warlock, or Fighter.

Also


The Moon Druid could take Polymorph as well.

So there's that.