Planning on making a wizard, don't know what to do for last 6 levels.

[Great Velocity]

I am planning out a wizard, and am going Transmuter 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/??? 6. Could the hivemind of GITP please assist in finding a prestige class to fill the last six levels?
Many thanks
-Great Velocity

[noob]

fatespinner is not optimized but is quite fun(Never ever take the fifth level in this class)
Do you really need to be Transmuter 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10(how do you enter ultimate maguc from level 4 you have at most 7 ranks in a skill(unless you use the feat to bypass that or that you use bard shenanigans) since you do such shenanigans you will probably understand my shenanigans)

Could you be instead Transmuter n(with spontaneous divination acf you do not care about the lost feat: you are going to take prcs before that)/a low level prc(or a combination) who fully progress casting for n-4 levels then Ultimate Magus which will progress your wizard casting or exactly one per level(since you have no spontaneous casting class to progress and that you only have one cl to progress and thus your wizard cl is always the lowest and thus you have no dead levels) then you take a dip in sublime chord(for benefiting from the bonus power of ultimate magus and having spontaneous casting) and then you have less class levels to choose for the end of your build and you have a much higher wizard CL

[Great Velocity]

Good point, I will have to take another level in wizard before ultimate magus. As for these bard shenanigans, tell me more, O great master.

[noob]

Those bard sheanigans is the fact a bard can follow you continuously while using inspire greatness for making you be considered as having 2 bonus Hit Dice. Thus if a bard follows you through all the procedure of skill training while singing non stop you can have two more ranks for a given level.
For that you probably want to recruit two high level warforged bard(for that you would probably need to spend a lot of money).

Sorry I forgot: you have to take a one level dip in prestige bard before the level in sublime chord.
(Or find other sheanigans for getting bardic music but I have found none)
So in the end
Transmuter(spontaneous divination for being able to cast spell spontaneously thus allowing entry in ultimate magus while having only one casting)/other prcs/ultimate magus 10/prestige bard 1/sublime chord 1/something else you can have a character who lose only one caster level while doing ultimate magus stuff.

[Eloel]

Legacy Champion 6 would give 5 levels of casting for both wizard and sorcerer sides, taking you to 16/15. Not quite enough for 9th level spells, but double 8s is cool too.

[Great Velocity]

What book is Legacy Champion from? Also, does anyone know how the Ultimate Magus epic progression goes? It loses Wizard levels on 1,4 and 7, but not on 10 like you would expect if it were following a pattern.

[Cosi]

Is there a reason you're on Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus instead of Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus? The latter is rather dramatically superior.

[Nifft]

Depending on your race (or your GM), you might enjoy a 5-level capstone which benefits both of your spellcasting classes, such as Shadowcraft Mage, or Abjurant Champion.

[Eloel]

What book is Legacy Champion from? Also, does anyone know how the Ultimate Magus epic progression goes? It loses Wizard levels on 1,4 and 7, but not on 10 like you would expect if it were following a pattern.

Ultimate Magus explicitly only loses a level on 1, 4 and 7, and since 11 to 15th levels are not 1, 4 or 7, they work fine. And on 7, you don't have to drop a Wizard level, you can instead drop a Sorcerer level, as you have caught up in 1 and 4.

Legacy Champion is from Weapons of Legacy.

[DarkSoul]

Ultimate Magus explicitly only loses a level on 1, 4 and 7, and since 11 to 15th levels are not 1, 4 or 7, they work fine. And on 7, you don't have to drop a Wizard level, you can instead drop a Sorcerer level, as you have caught up in 1 and 4.

Legacy Champion is from Weapons of Legacy.With Wiz 4/Sorc 1, level 1, 4, and 7 of Ultimate Magus all have to go to Sorcerer unless there's a Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) feat or other caster level increase somewhere prior to UM 7.

Are you playing a buff wizard? If so, War Weaver might be interesting.

[ATHATH]

Those bard sheanigans is the fact a bard can follow you continuously while using inspire greatness for making you be considered as having 2 bonus Hit Dice. Thus if a bard follows you through all the procedure of skill training while singing non stop you can have two more ranks for a given level.
For that you probably want to recruit two high level warforged bard(for that you would probably need to spend a lot of money).

Sorry I forgot: you have to take a one level dip in prestige bard before the level in sublime chord.
(Or find other sheanigans for getting bardic music but I have found none)
So in the end
Transmuter(spontaneous divination for being able to cast spell spontaneously thus allowing entry in ultimate magus while having only one casting)/other prcs/ultimate magus 10/prestige bard 1/sublime chord 1/something else you can have a character who lose only one caster level while doing ultimate magus stuff.
Heartfire Fanner gives you the Bardic Music of a 5th level Bard without losing any Caster Levels.

Check out Nar Demonbinder (from Unapproachable East). Slap some list-expanders on it, and it will make a good Spontaneous side to an Ultimate Magus build (note that its CL is based on its own level + your Wizard level, so UM should advance Wizard every time).

[Eloel]

With Wiz 4/Sorc 1, level 1, 4, and 7 of Ultimate Magus all have to go to Sorcerer unless there's a Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) feat or other caster level increase somewhere prior to UM 7.

Are you playing a buff wizard? If so, War Weaver might be interesting.

OP said Wiz3 though

[DarkSoul]

OP said Wiz3 thoughWiz 3/Sorc 1 doesn't make the skill requirements, as was mentioned in the second and third posts.

[Psyren]

Does it have to be Sorcerer? If you use Beguiler instead, you can still qualify for UM, but now you can dump Charisma and be happily SAD.

[Great Velocity]

So, here's what I've got so far:
•Wiz 3 does not work, Wiz 4 is needed
•Beguiler is a better choice than sorcerer (what if I want sorc to get access to banned schools, because optimisation is good, but blowing things up is fun)
•Abjurant Champion is good for last 5 levels

By the way, I am playing a Necropolitan Grey Elf.

[Eloel]

(what if I want sorc to get access to banned schools, because optimisation is good, but blowing things up is fun)

Ban Illusion and Enchantment. Beguiler gets practically all of those.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Ban Illusion and Enchantment. Beguiler gets practically all of those.

Do this, unless your reason for going Sorcerer is for Sorcerer only spells. Races of Dragon has a few nice ones in the form of Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover. Those two alone might be worth going Sorcerer over Beguiler.

[DarkSoul]

Abjurant Champion is good, but are you looking for martial prowess in your last few levels? It's a generally good PrC, but exceptionally good for a gish.

I think you should decide what style of wizard you're going to play, then we'll be able to make better recommendations. Right now, there's nothing in your build that makes Abjurant Champion any better a choice than Archmage or Master Specialist. A blaster is going to want something completely different from a gish, who wants something different from a god wizard (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0).

[Eloel]

Do this, unless your reason for going Sorcerer is for Sorcerer only spells. Races of Dragon has a few nice ones in the form of Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover. Those two alone might be worth going Sorcerer over Beguiler.

Arcane Fusion (and Greater Arcane Fusion) can be worth it, but the Wings series I don't think are that good.

[Ortesk]

How does one tag it as Optimization, and then lose caster levels? I am actually curious about this one.

For the record I am boring and say wizard 3/Master specialist 3/ Incantrix 7/ Iotsv 7.

Call yourself an ultimate magus, an arch mage, a knight, or whatever you want the common folk to call you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is there a reason you're on Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus instead of Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus? The latter is rather dramatically superior.

Here's where I tend to disagree with the popular trend.

Unless you were planning on leaning heavily on spells that allow saves and illusions the flexibility in sorcerer over beguiler isn't worth giving up just so you can have a few more points in intelligence. The difference between being dependent on one ability vs two is -grossly- overstated.

Between sorcerer only spells, the myriad spells you're going to want to have and use regularly, and the ability to pick up the metamagic specialist ACF there's just no contest here. Sorcerer beats beguiler, hands down IMO, for an ultimate magus.

[Cosi]

Between sorcerer only spells,

Assuming for the moment that you're doing the optimal build (i.e. Illumian with Practiced Spellcaster), you get a total of 8th level casting on your non-Wizard side. That means you don't get the really great Sorcerer-only spells (arcane fusion, greater arcane fusion). You're also between five and seven levels behind an actual Sorcerer, which makes a lot of spells awfully unimpressive. wings of flurry is one of the better 4th level offensive spells, but it's not something you'd do instead of a 7th level spell (which is what the action trade-off is as an Ultimate Magus). The only Sorcerer-only spell that's actually awesome for you is primal instinct for the +5 bonus to initiative. Decent, but is it really better than glibness and getting like four times as many spells at every level?


the myriad spells you're going to want to have and use regularly,

An 8th level Sorcerer gets five first level spells, three second level spells, two third level spells (one of which is primal instinct), and one fourth level spell. Assuming you plan to use those for utility, you need to beat:

1st level - charm person, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, silent image, and undetectable alignment
2nd level - blur, detect thoughts, invisibility, knock, minor image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, and spider climb
3rd level - arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, glibness, invisibility sphere, major image, nondetection, and suggestion
4th level - charm monster, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, locate creature

Plus whatever five spells you chose to transfer with Expanded Spell Knowledge. Plus the the value of the rest of the Beguiler's spell list. And I guess you could pick up some Rogue skills to go with your Trapfinding?


and the ability to pick up the metamagic specialist ACF

I care why? Yes, it makes it easier to do metamagic on your Sorcerer side, but why is that something you're going to do particularly often?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming for the moment that you're doing the optimal build (i.e. Illumian with Practiced Spellcaster), you get a total of 8th level casting on your non-Wizard side. That means you don't get the really great Sorcerer-only spells (arcane fusion, greater arcane fusion). You're also between five and seven levels behind an actual Sorcerer, which makes a lot of spells awfully unimpressive. wings of flurry is one of the better 4th level offensive spells, but it's not something you'd do instead of a 7th level spell (which is what the action trade-off is as an Ultimate Magus). The only Sorcerer-only spell that's actually awesome for you is primal instinct for the +5 bonus to initiative. Decent, but is it really better than glibness and getting like four times as many spells at every level?

IMO, yes it is. Not being pigeon-holed into the enchanter/illusionist options is well worth having fewer spells known. If the spells you know are redundant or less than useful for your level then what's the point in knowing more of them.

As for using lower-level spells in higher level play, why else would you be a metamagic specialist? Wings of flurry isn't much as-is at level 15 but maximized or twinned it can be. Heightened is also a fine option if making it stick is a concern and unlike a typical sorcerer you can pop two metamagics on a spell, one normally and one with augmented casting.




An 8th level Sorcerer gets five first level spells, three second level spells, two third level spells (one of which is primal instinct), and one fourth level spell. Assuming you plan to use those for utility, you need to beat:

1st level - charm person, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, silent image, and undetectable alignment
2nd level - blur, detect thoughts, invisibility, knock, minor image, misdirection, see invisibility, silence, and spider climb
3rd level - arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, glibness, invisibility sphere, major image, nondetection, and suggestion
4th level - charm monster, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, locate creature

Plus whatever five spells you chose to transfer with Expanded Spell Knowledge. Plus the the value of the rest of the Beguiler's spell list. And I guess you could pick up some Rogue skills to go with your Trapfinding?

There are some goodies on there, no doubt, but very few of them are things that you're going to need to always have ready. Most of them are things you'd just put in your spellbook and maybe keep a scroll or two on hand and for what? So you can have one extra spell slot per level on the wizard side? If you're wizarding right you're already sporting more spell-slots than you need by mid levels.

I'll stick to being a generalist and not gimping myself, thanks. The point of a PrC is to increase power and versatility, not half-ass make up for what you threw away.

And let's not pretend that splattering of skill points or trapfinding mean anything to an ultimate magus.


I care why? Yes, it makes it easier to do metamagic on your Sorcerer side, but why is that something you're going to do particularly often?

Because that's what sorcerers are good at. You're building a metamagic specialist in building an ultimate magus in the first place and metamagic is one of the ways the sorcerer rocks face. It also lets you double up on spontaneous metamagic without losing your move action. It's not like you're going to miss the 1 level progression on your familiar (that you probably already traded away on the wizard side) anyway.

[Cosi]

IMO, yes it is. Not being pigeon-holed into the enchanter/illusionist options is well worth having fewer spells known. If the spells you know are redundant or less than useful for your level then what's the point in knowing more of them.

You're not "pidgeon-holed into the enchanter/illusionist" archetype. Did you forget that you have one level off of full Wizard casting with which you can select any spell you want?


Wings of flurry isn't much as-is at level 15 but maximized or twinned it can be.

Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10
Sorcerer CL: 12 (1 Sorcerer +7 Ultimate Magus +4 Arcane Spell Power)
Wizard CL: 18 (4 Wizard +10 Ultimate Magus +4 Arcane Spell Power)
Average Damage, maximized wings of flurry: 72 (12 * 6)
Average Damage, twinned wings of flurry: 84 (12 * 3.5 * 2)
Average Damage, maximized cone of cold: 90 (15 * 6)

That looks super bad for something that is supposed to be a pay-off for tanking your spells known. The Wizard side is dealing more damage than the Sorcerer, so why is it worth anything at all to get Sorcerer damaging spells?


I'll stick to being a generalist and not gimping myself, thanks.

Maybe you have some spells you'd like to take on the Sorcerer side to demonstrate how they get better utility than a Beguiler? Because it's clearly not the Sorcerer-only spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're not "pidgeon-holed into the enchanter/illusionist" archetype. Did you forget that you have one level off of full Wizard casting with which you can select any spell you want?

Or I have the entire sorc/wiz spell list to choose from for all of it. How is that not obviously superior? Just because you get fewer known? I don't think so. You -are- pidgeon-holed into enchantment/illusion options by beguiler -except- for the five spells that come from expanded spell knowledge. That's just not enough.




Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10
Sorcerer CL: 12 (1 Sorcerer +7 Ultimate Magus +4 Arcane Spell Power)
Wizard CL: 18 (4 Wizard +10 Ultimate Magus +4 Arcane Spell Power)
Average Damage, maximized wings of flurry: 72 (12 * 6)
Average Damage, twinned wings of flurry: 84 (12 * 3.5 * 2)
Average Damage, maximized cone of cold: 90 (15 * 6)

That looks super bad for something that is supposed to be a pay-off for tanking your spells known. The Wizard side is dealing more damage than the Sorcerer, so why is it worth anything at all to get Sorcerer damaging spells?

You forgot the +4 for practiced spellcaster on the sorcerer side. Without it, that would be 9 from UM to the sorcerer side and +8 to the wizard side because of how the UM mechanics work.

So that's

Maxed WoF: 96 (16*6)
Twinn WoF: 112 (16*3.5*2)
Maxed CoC: 90 (15*6)

You were saying?


Maybe you have some spells you'd like to take on the Sorcerer side to demonstrate how they get better utility than a Beguiler? Because it's clearly not the Sorcerer-only spells.

How about something like this

1) Prot Evil, obscuring mist, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, expeditious retreat
2) alter self, glitterdust, mirror image
3) fly, arcane sight
4) polymorph

That's not counting the extras from expanded spell knowledge or even going outside of core. Those are all spells that you'll want to have ever ready and will almost always be useable when the crud hits the fan, ya know, stuff you don't want to waste prepared slots on but also don't want to leave to a scroll here and there. Hell, alter self and polymorph are almost worth it just by themselves. A more thorough examination would swap in wings of flurry and cover for a couple of those and then get them back with expanded spell knowledge. Most of those also don't appear on the beguiler list at all and you're not getting all of them onto it with expanded spell knowledge.

[Cosi]

Or I have the entire sorc/wiz spell list to choose from for all of it. How is that not obviously superior? Just because you get fewer known? I don't think so. You -are- pidgeon-holed into enchantment/illusion options by beguiler -except- for the five spells that come from expanded spell knowledge. That's just not enough.

The five spells you get from Expanded Spell Knowledge are almost half what you get from Sorcerer levels. And you are seriously under-selling the Beguiler list. The minor image line is amazing, especially considering that you probably have relatively bad save DCs. Factor in stealth and charm spells, and you have a pretty solid utility suite even before you start learning new spells.


You forgot the +4 for practiced spellcaster on the sorcerer side. Without it, that would be 9 from UM to the sorcerer side and +8 to the wizard side because of how the UM mechanics work.

D'oh. Fair enough. That said, you didn't actually opt to take the spell in question when coming up with your list (you totally should have, because your list sucks), so apparently it is not a particularly compelling argument for the Sorcerer all things considered. But yes, you got me (although: you forgot the Illumian sigil boost).

All that said, blasting is not really a profitable profession. The Barbed Devil (a CR 11 monster) has enough HP to tank twinned wings of flurry. Your DC is probably 19ish, and the Barbed Devil only fails that 20% of the time. So he's looking at a better than 60% chance to just hit you like you didn't do anything.


1) Prot Evil, obscuring mist, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, expeditious retreat

You might want to read the Beguiler spell list carefully. Upon doing so, you will notice that it has obscuring mist and expeditious retreat.

magic missile is a waste of an action at every level, even with meta-magic. protection from evil should probably be coming from a magic circle against evil cast by the party Cleric. ray of enfeeblement is decent, but does it really compare to silent image, charm person, and disguise self? I don't really think so, but maybe it does.


2) alter self, glitterdust, mirror image

Beguiler Spells: glitterdust, mirror image.

alter self is undeniably good (although I do wonder why you have it and polymorph on the same list). But I'm not convinced there's a second spell of that caliber the Beguiler doesn't get, so I'll just pop Expanded Spell Knowledge to grab alter self.


3) fly, arcane sight

Not only is arcane sight on the Beguiler list, it is listed as such in this thread.

You get 6th level Sorcerer casting at 13th level, at which point you are casting as a 12th level Wizard (CL 15). For my flight, I would rather use overland flight or phantom steed, which I could easily pop out of Wizard spell slots.


4) polymorph

Very good. Although to be honest, I doubt I'd be playing an Ultimate Magus in a game where I'd get to do polymorph shenanigans. Also, the Wizard side is getting polymorph any object in one level at this point, so any advantage you're getting here is not going to last long.


Most of those also don't appear on the beguiler list at all and you're not getting all of them onto it with expanded spell knowledge.

Hahahaha. Out of eleven spells, five of them appear on the Beguiler spell list. While your statement is correct, I am hesitant to call it a win for the Sorcerer. You really should have gone to the depth you claim you can, because right now your offerings look seriously pathetic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The five spells you get from Expanded Spell Knowledge are almost half what you get from Sorcerer levels. And you are seriously under-selling the Beguiler list. The minor image line is amazing, especially considering that you probably have relatively bad save DCs. Factor in stealth and charm spells, and you have a pretty solid utility suite even before you start learning new spells.

I'm not arguing that it's not a solid utililty list, that'd be foolish. What I'm arguing is that, in the same build as near-full wizard casting, there's not much point in trying to tack on a bunch of utility you can already cover. Better to use the spontaneous side to cover things that you'd want to always have prepared and/or use multiple times per day anyway. If all you're after is a utility focused character that can swing metamagic around well, the incantatrix build that was suggested upthread. Using UM to do that slightly worse for a few extra spell slots just seems like a poor choice to me.


D'oh. Fair enough. That said, you didn't actually opt to take the spell in question when coming up with your list (you totally should have, because your list sucks), so apparently it is not a particularly compelling argument for the Sorcerer all things considered. But yes, you got me (although: you forgot the Illumian sigil boost).

I was, admitedly, half-assing it with the SRD rather than doing a proper build. Did we say something about illumians? 'cause you forgot it too then. No matter.


All that said, blasting is not really a profitable profession. The Barbed Devil (a CR 11 monster) has enough HP to tank twinned wings of flurry. Your DC is probably 19ish, and the Barbed Devil only fails that 20% of the time. So he's looking at a better than 60% chance to just hit you like you didn't do anything.

Rays stick better and tanking enemy saves is an option before blasting. There's also the fact that blasting is -fun- and insta-gibbing enemies tends to get books thrown at you in all but the highest-op games.


You might want to read the Beguiler spell list carefully. Upon doing so, you will notice that it has obscuring mist and expeditious retreat.

That's what I get for rushing I suppose.


magic missile is a waste of an action at every level, even with meta-magic.

I disagree. There's always room for a low-damage guaranteed hit. Nothing that doesn't explicitly say it's proof against magic missile can avoid taking the damage. Being caught with your pants down happens, occasionally, and it's better to be prepared poorly than not at all.


protection from evil should probably be coming from a magic circle against evil cast by the party Cleric.

Not a thing that's guaranteed to exist. Prot evil provides an invaluable protection that's easily persisted and can be swapped out later on for magic circle if you feel like it. If you've got somebody else that can provide it or want to spend gold on a magical standard (heroes of battle) then, by all means, skip it.


ray of enfeeblement is decent, but does it really compare to silent image, charm person, and disguise self? I don't really think so, but maybe it does.

Disguise will be redundant next to alter self, charm is nice but not always useful, and the image line is very DM dependent, not a thing you need all the time, and only as useful as the situation and your creativity allows.


Beguiler Spells: glitterdust, mirror image.

There are definitely a few must haves on there, these being two of them, but not so many as to justify taking the whole package, IMO.


alter self is undeniably good (although I do wonder why you have it and polymorph on the same list).

Because I didn't bother with the swaps and having a lower-level option so you don't have to spend your highest level slots is not a bad thing anyway.


But I'm not convinced there's a second spell of that caliber the Beguiler doesn't get, so I'll just pop Expanded Spell Knowledge to grab alter self.

How about the sorcerer only wings of cover? Immediate action "nope" is pretty solid.


Not only is arcane sight on the Beguiler list, it is listed as such in this thread.

Yep, but it's indispensible to any serious arcanist. Permanent is better but permanent can be dispelled and being able to pop it right back is a good safeguard. Swap it for dispel magic if you prefer.


You get 6th level Sorcerer casting at 13th level, at which point you are casting as a 12th level Wizard (CL 15). For my flight, I would rather use overland flight or phantom steed, which I could easily pop out of Wizard spell slots.

Quicken spell and fly is sufficient in most circumstances. Popping one of those into a wizard slot is great for when you're actually trying to travel overland by air but otherwise I'd save the slot for something more important. Don't get me wrong, overland flight is one of the spells that goes into my wizards' tattoo book (CAr) of must have effects but it's just overkill most of the time.


Very good. Although to be honest, I doubt I'd be playing an Ultimate Magus in a game where I'd get to do polymorph shenanigans. Also, the Wizard side is getting polymorph any object in one level at this point, so any advantage you're getting here is not going to last long.

Polymorph doesn't have to be abused to the point of shenanigans to be a very powerful and useful spell and PaO goes into overkill territory for most applications.


Hahahaha. Out of eleven spells, five of them appear on the Beguiler spell list. While your statement is correct, I am hesitant to call it a win for the Sorcerer. You really should have gone to the depth you claim you can, because right now your offerings look seriously pathetic.

We could go back and forth like this forever so let's just agree to disagree, eh?


@the question the OP asked, how about 5 of the 6 levels left over go to archmage? Seems kind of obvious really.

[Nifft]

If I were making an UM with one side Sorcerer, I'd probably go for at least some of the Sorcerer-only spells which didn't depend on level or saving throw to be useful. Stuff like...

Level 1:
- Wings of Swift Flying

Level 2:
- Primal Hunter
- Wings of Cover

Level 3:
- Primal Instinct

Level 4:
- Primal Senses

Level 5:
- Arcane Fusion
- Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords

Level 6:
- Primal Speed

- - -

Beguiler is also a nice option, especially if you take it at level 1, because I like having all the skills, and with Able Learner and a Wizard's Intelligence that's a lot of class skills forever.

If I were going for Sorcerer, I'd probably be a Silverbrow Human, or a Dragonwrought Kobold.

- - -

Hmm, the idea of a Dragonwrought Kobold Ultimage Magus makes me wonder... if you obtain the Spellhoard psychosis after UM 10, do you get to effectively double your Wizard level?

[Cosi]

Rays stick better and tanking enemy saves is an option before blasting. There's also the fact that blasting is -fun- and insta-gibbing enemies tends to get books thrown at you in all but the highest-op games.

"It's more fun" and "people will get mad at you" are not, as it turns out, arguments that Sorcerer > Beguiler.


That's what I get for rushing I suppose.

Or, maybe, the Beguiler spell list is actually better for minor utility than a Sorcerer? Who would have guessed?


I disagree. There's always room for a low-damage guaranteed hit. Nothing that doesn't explicitly say it's proof against magic missile can avoid taking the damage. Being caught with your pants down happens, occasionally, and it's better to be prepared poorly than not at all.

I understand the damage is guaranteed. What it is not is worth wiping my ass with. It's the same average damage as Fiery Burst, and no one thinks Fiery Burst is a good option.


How about the sorcerer only wings of cover? Immediate action "nope" is pretty solid.

If you get it at 4th level. When you get it as an Ultimate Magus, you could already have celerity as an immediate action defense and 5th level spells in general.


Quicken spell and fly is sufficient in most circumstances. Popping one of those into a wizard slot is great for when you're actually trying to travel overland by air but otherwise I'd save the slot for something more important. Don't get me wrong, overland flight is one of the spells that goes into my wizards' tattoo book (CAr) of must have effects but it's just overkill most of the time.

You're scrambling. fly is the same level as phantom steed and it's slower at this point in the game.


Polymorph doesn't have to be abused to the point of shenanigans to be a very powerful and useful spell and PaO goes into overkill territory for most applications.

It probably does to be both useful at 15th level (when you get it) and better than the entire Beguiler spell list, plus two fourth level Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Also, you cannot possibly claim that polymorph is kosher, but polymorph any object is not. It's like objecting to summon monster VIII after using summon monster IV.


If I were making an UM with one side Sorcerer, I'd probably go for at least some of the Sorcerer-only spells which didn't depend on level or saving throw to be useful. Stuff like...

Level 1:
- Wings of Swift Flying

Level 2:
- Primal Hunter
- Wings of Cover

Level 3:
- Primal Instinct

Level 4:
- Primal Senses

Honestly, the only really impressive spells on that list are wings of cover (which, as noted above, I am not sold on being worth it at ~10th level) and primal instinct. That's nice, but not at all something I am sold on being better than glibness and every other 3rd level Beguiler spell.


Level 5:
- Arcane Fusion
- Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords

Level 6:
- Primal Speed


Hmm, the idea of a Dragonwrought Kobold Ultimage Magus makes me wonder... if you obtain the Spellhoard psychosis after UM 10, do you get to effectively double your Wizard level?

Probably, but if you wanted to do that, you'd just take Spontaneous Divination and progress Wizard and Wizard with Ultimate Magus.

[Kelb_Panthera]

"It's more fun" and "people will get mad at you" are not, as it turns out, arguments that Sorcerer > Beguiler.

Side note was a side note. If you're not into blasting, have fun dealing with situations where you need to do damage and can't. The alternative is to waste wizard slots on attack spells; no thanks.


Or, maybe, the Beguiler spell list is actually better for minor utility than a Sorcerer? Who would have guessed?

And your low level wizard spells can utterly crush them both, nevermind the higher level stuff you're capable of at the level these options come on line. That's why I'm advocating putting -all- your utility on the wizard side and using the sorcerer spells for stuff you don't want to have a chance of being caught without.


I understand the damage is guaranteed. What it is not is worth wiping my ass with. It's the same average damage as Fiery Burst, and no one thinks Fiery Burst is a good option.

I think fiery burst is a solid low-level option and MM can be metamagicked into useful; twinned, maximized MM at CL 9: 50 guaranteed damage. That's nothing to sneeze at. Twin alone can be used to shred mirror images, too. Or do you never fight other arcanists, ever?


If you get it at 4th level. When you get it as an Ultimate Magus, you could already have celerity as an immediate action defense and 5th level spells in general.

Celerity has a cost in the daze effect. WoC doesn't. You're also probably going to use the celerity action to simply break LoS/LoE by burning another spell-slot anyway unless you have the silver-bullet to solve the encounter prepared.


You're scrambling. fly is the same level as phantom steed and it's slower at this point in the game.

So pickup phantom steed instead. It's not on the beguiler list either. I like fly, in spite of the lower speed, becaus you can't be knocked off of it. If the speed is more attractive to you than the stability, so be it. The duration is still overkill for most situations. On the odd day that you need to fly overland for any significant distance, spend 15 minutes preparing overland flight or phantom steed then cast it and fly away.


It probably does to be both useful at 15th level (when you get it) and better than the entire Beguiler spell list, plus two fourth level Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Also, you cannot possibly claim that polymorph is kosher, but polymorph any object is not. It's like objecting to summon monster VIII after using summon monster IV.

You seem to have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that polymorph was okay and PaO wasn't. I was saying, why burn an 8th level slot when you can probably get where you need to go with a 4th. If circumstances demand the higher level spell, use it but most circumstances won't.

[Cosi]

And your low level wizard spells can utterly crush them both, nevermind the higher level stuff you're capable of at the level these options come on line. That's why I'm advocating putting -all- your utility on the wizard side and using the sorcerer spells for stuff you don't want to have a chance of being caught without.

Like five Beguiler spells, two variants of polymorph, and some crappy 1st level offensive spells? Sure, awesome.


I think fiery burst is a solid low-level option and MM can be metamagicked into useful; twinned, maximized MM at CL 9: 50 guaranteed damage. That's nothing to sneeze at. Twin alone can be used to shred mirror images, too. Or do you never fight other arcanists, ever?

50 damage is less than half the HP of a CR 11 monster. You do not care about 50 damage. Especially if you're spending two fourth level slots to do it. dispel magic (BTW, Beguiler spell) is a better answer to mirror image because it strips their other buffs. Or just BFC that doesn't care if they have mirror image.


Celerity has a cost in the daze effect. WoC doesn't. You're also probably going to use the celerity action to simply break LoS/LoE by burning another spell-slot anyway unless you have the silver-bullet to solve the encounter prepared.

wings of cover also only works for one attack, while whatever you lay down with celerity is probably going to lock down a lot of actions.


So pickup phantom steed instead. It's not on the beguiler list either. I like fly, in spite of the lower speed, becaus you can't be knocked off of it. If the speed is more attractive to you than the stability, so be it. The duration is still overkill for most situations. On the odd day that you need to fly overland for any significant distance, spend 15 minutes preparing overland flight or phantom steed then cast it and fly away.

You're going to cast phantom steed once per day, which makes it poor choice for your Sorcerer spells. And if someone is in the position to knock you off the steed, they can probably just gank you. You're rolling d4s for HP, it's not exactly hard.


You seem to have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that polymorph was okay and PaO wasn't. I was saying, why burn an 8th level slot when you can probably get where you need to go with a 4th. If circumstances demand the higher level spell, use it but most circumstances won't.

I am amazed you think polymorph is anywhere near polymorph any object. Also, if polymorph is actually that awesome, the Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus can just Expanded Spell Knowledge it. We've already established that blasting isn't worth it, so what's the third best non-Beguiler Sorcerer/Wizard spell that you always want and is competitive in a 15th level environment, and how does it compare to the entire list of 4th level Beguiler spells?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Like five Beguiler spells, two variants of polymorph, and some crappy 1st level offensive spells? Sure, awesome.

It's not -supposed- to be awesome. That's what your wizardry is for. The spontaneous side is better suited to the mundane, every day, repeat as needed spells which -most- of the beguiler spells are not.


50 damage is less than half the HP of a CR 11 monster. You do not care about 50 damage. Especially if you're spending two fourth level slots to do it. dispel magic (BTW, Beguiler spell) is a better answer to mirror image because it strips their other buffs. Or just BFC that doesn't care if they have mirror image.

Half the HP of a foe that's otherwise proving difficult is nothing to sneeze at. Everyone always poo-poos blasting but -somebody- has to actually do damage to the enemy or they'll just wait out your other spells and kill you anyway. You'd rather be plinking away with an enchanted crossbow? Giving the fighter a headstart on enemy number 2 is a bad thing? Nuking a mook out of the way so the fighter can reach the primary foe is a wasted action? Theorycraft is one thing but combat almost never goes according to plan and having a reliable way of contributing when you've been caught out is -not- a bad thing.


wings of cover also only works for one attack, while whatever you lay down with celerity is probably going to lock down a lot of actions.

Maybe, maybe not. You can't count on having the perfect solution to every problem or even guarantee that you can do -anything- to slow down some enemies. Being completely open on the next round is still a hell of a cost to pay too.


You're going to cast phantom steed once per day, which makes it poor choice for your Sorcerer spells. And if someone is in the position to knock you off the steed, they can probably just gank you. You're rolling d4s for HP, it's not exactly hard.

The steed has absolutely crap HP at -all- levels (7 +1/CL) and its ac is nothing special. Any level appropriate AoE will drop it on the spot. So will a couple arrows fired at it and you can't protect it with illusions cast on yourself because it's a separate creature. Any fool enemy who wants you back on the ground has a more than a reasonable chance of getting his way. It's virtually guaranteed in an ambush. At least overland flight is only vulnerable to dispelling.




I am amazed you think polymorph is anywhere near polymorph any object. Also, if polymorph is actually that awesome, the Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus can just Expanded Spell Knowledge it.

Oh come on. I didn't say it was as good as PaO. Stop trying to impose that idea on what I'm saying. What I've said, twice now, is that polymorph is sufficient for most circumstances. Hell, PaO doesn't even really do that much more than polymoprh anyway; looser targetting restriction, you get the int of the new form, and a potentially longer duration. You don't get to turn into creatures of new types (inhereted from polymorph), you don't increase the HD cap (inherited from polymorph), you -do- get to mimic a few other, lower-level transmutations with a higher DC but that's not that great since those are all fort save or die effects. Ya know what, I was wrong; polymorph -is- almost as good as PaO. They're damn near the same spell.


We've already established that blasting isn't worth it,

No, you and a number of other people have asserted that it's a waste of time. Even the wizarding guides here and on BG and the minmax boards suggest you pick up a -few- blasting options, just in case. It's not worth dedicating to because everyone deals damage but that doesn't make it utterly worthless.


so what's the third best non-Beguiler Sorcerer/Wizard spell that you always want and is competitive in a 15th level environment, and how does it compare to the entire list of 4th level Beguiler spells?

No. I'm done here. I'm getting the impression you're more interested in proving me wrong than proving yourself right at this point. That's not a discussion I'm interested in participating in any further. Good day, sir.