How good is this build?

[Spacehamster]

Idea is simple, one strong attack per round.
2 levels in paladin, take the rest in arcane trickster and take melee cantrips.
This lets you do 1d8 + DEX + 2(dueling) + Cantrip damage + sneak attack + possible smites.
Single devastating strike, probably get sentinel to give you more oppurtunity to do an additional
strike with sneak attack + possible smite.

[JeffreyGator]

Idea is simple, one strong attack per round.

Don't miss! Granted you expect to have advantage but you can still miss.

My plan in that case would be to make a bonus attack off-hand instead of a different bonus action.
I believe that you could then apply all the single attack goodies: SA, smite, attribute mod?

I'm not sure if this is possible if the missed attack was going to use a cantrip...
OTOH I don't think you can apply a cantrip to an attack if it misses.

[Spacehamster]

Don't miss! Granted you expect to have advantage but you can still miss.

My plan in that case would be to make a bonus attack off-hand instead of a different bonus action.
I believe that you could then apply all the single attack goodies: SA, smite, attribute mod?

I'm not sure if this is possible if the missed attack was going to use a cantrip...
OTOH I don't think you can apply a cantrip to an attack if it misses.

Yep defo the weakness of the idea, good idea to beg your friendly party cleric to include you
in his bless spell. :P

[MrFahrenheit]

Pal 2/valor bard 6/arcane trickster 12. You'll recoup the spell slot loss from the levels in bard and the trickster, and then some, plus get six ASIs and 6d6 sneak attack, and a second attack.
(Edit - math)

[Spacehamster]

Pal 2/valor bard 8/arcane trickster 12. You'll recoup the spell slot loss from the levels in bard and the trickster, and then some, plus get six ASIs and 6d6 sneak attack, and a second attack.

2 + 8 + 12 = 22 so not possible. :)

[Theodoxus]

Yeah, your slots are gonna be pretty weak with a Pal2/Rogx build... While sneak will shore them up some, I don't think it's sufficient. The synergy in out of combat arenas is pretty poor too. Can't steal around in heavy armor very well, for instance.

[MrFahrenheit]

Edited sorry. One less ASI too

[Spacehamster]

Yeah, your slots are gonna be pretty weak with a Pal2/Rogx build... While sneak will shore them up some, I don't think it's sufficient. The synergy in out of combat arenas is pretty poor too. Can't steal around in heavy armor very well, for instance.

Did not say anything about using heavy armor? a dex build would go for shield + studded leather for 19 AC, not bad at all and spell slots would be slightly less then a full paladin,
basically a better Arcane trickster for the cost of rogue cap, 1 ASI and 1d6 sneak attack. :)

[Spacehamster]

If you are not too worried about sneak attack die and want quicker progress to max power smites could always replace 6 of the trickster levels with lore bard for more skill versatility + expertise, lvl 3 spells from any class and such gems. :)

[Zman]

Go Defense instead of Dueling, the +2 Damage on a single attack is no where near as useful as a static AC boost.

[Mongobear]

Rogue 18/Barbarian 2 (Barbarian starting out, enter Rogue at 3)

Standard Point Buy
Variant Human
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8

At level 1

Use 4 ASI's from Level 4/8/10/12 of Rogue to boost Dex and Con to 20

Ability scores are now:

Str 13
Dex 20
Con 20
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8

You still have 1 ASI left for a Feat or to Boost Int a bit higher, it doesn't matter. For this exercise, I will take a Feat--Savage Attacker and being Variant Human gives you a second Feat, Crossbow Expert. You really only need Savage Attacker for this, so Variant Human and use the ASI for more stats, or change your Race to something like Half-Orc for the crit shenanigans boost or something with better stat boosts to Dex/Con.

Here is how his works, Bold italics for the shennanigansy combo.

Barbarian gives you Rage, Unarmored Defense (lol, 20 AC naked, 22 Actually, you have proficiency with Shields), Advantage on Dex saves, and Reckless Attacks.

Rogue gives you 9d6 Sneak Attack and Elusive

You always attack in melee with Advantage, allowing Sneak Attack all the time. Elusive make it so nothing can attack you with Advantage as long as you aren't dead. Hooray, free Sneak Attacks for everyone!

So, You enter a Rage, walk up to a guy, and stab him wildly in the throat with a Rapier? Best 1 handed Finesse weapon I think. Can skip this part, Rage damage doesn't work for Finesse Weapons. Would only help for Survival from Resistances

Unless you can assume the Dawnblade from OotA is allowed, which is Finesseable Longsword, therefore Versatile so 1d10 Radiant damage instead of slashing.

You have +11 minimum to hit, with Advantage, so you probably hit. And deal 1d8 + 9d6 + 5 (Dex) and can reroll it because of Savage Attacker if you don't like it.

If you somehow miss, you can then shoot him in the Throat with your Hand Crossbow offhand, also at +11, but no Advantage unless he is unaware of you, to deal 1d6(Crossbow) + 9d6(Sneak Attack) +5(Dex). Nevermind, this will be very difficult to pull off Sneak Attack with, unless you manage to stay hidden from him. Just use a Dagger in your offhand, and if you miss the Rapier, TWF the dagger and deal 1d4 + 9d6.

[Saggo]

So, You enter a Rage, walk up to a guy, and stab him wildly in the throat with a Rapier? Best 1 handed Finesse weapon I think. Can skip this part, Rage damage doesn't work for Finesse Weapons. Would only help for Survival from Resistances

Sneak Attack just needs a Finesse weapon, not Dex. Rage just needs to use Str, so attack with a finesse weapon using Str.

[PoeticDwarf]

Yep defo the weakness of the idea, good idea to beg your friendly party cleric to include you
in his bless spell. :P

I'd still go for one attack. Helps your idea and two hits both 30dmg is on average same as one hit 60. Two hits is a bit better because you won't overkill and can hit two weaker targets

With a reaction attack you can use sneak attack btw

[Mongobear]

Sneak Attack just needs a Finesse weapon, not Dex. Rage just needs to use Str, so attack with a finesse weapon using Str.

this is true, but it creates a very dysfunctional character. I think for actual play, only taking Strength up enough to MC Barbarian is the better option. For this Exercise, sure itll yield slightly better results, but not worth it just to net +2 damage on one attack.

[Saggo]

It's only dysfunctional if you let it be, Expertise Athletics opens a wide array of shenanigans, but that wasn't the point. The point was Rage works just fine with Finesse weapons.

[Waazraath]

Idea is simple, one strong attack per round.
2 levels in paladin, take the rest in arcane trickster and take melee cantrips.
This lets you do 1d8 + DEX + 2(dueling) + Cantrip damage + sneak attack + possible smites.
Single devastating strike, probably get sentinel to give you more oppurtunity to do an additional
strike with sneak attack + possible smite.

I think it can work just fine. The number of spell slots you have is, as others have mentioned, quite low, so you have really manage your rescources well. Other then that, greenflame blade (or booming blade) + sneak attack is decent damage, smite gives you some nova ability, and the occasional reaction attack finishes the build as 'decent dpr'. I'd consider sentinel + mage slayer; you can also use a shield with paladin, use the feat that lets you shield bash (afb), to get advantage easiliy. With expertise, even if your strength is average you sould be able to shove plenty of enemies with a bonus action.

I recently made a thread on how much is possible with dips, using AT as an example, maybe you find something of interest in it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482722-Why-I-love-this-edition

[djreynolds]

Here is the kicker. Why arcane trickster? You can get a cantrip from magic initiate. I understand the spell slots from arcane trickster, but they will run our fast.

It is a good build, just got to try it out

[Spacehamster]

Here is the kicker. Why arcane trickster? You can get a cantrip from magic initiate. I understand the spell slots from arcane trickster, but they will run our fast.

It is a good build, just got to try it out

Cause AT got sneak attack. :) The idea were to build a strong alpha strike build which it achieves. :)

[Waazraath]

Cause AT got sneak attack. :) The idea were to build a strong alpha strike build which it achieves. :)

All the other rogue subclasses have SA as well. I think djreynolds meant that you can use a combat cantrip with any rogue subclass. You don´t need AT (though obviously, you don't need pally 2 then, if you don't have spell slots to burn on smites - but he is correct that even AT doesn't give that many).

[Spacehamster]

All the other rogue subclasses have SA as well. I think djreynolds meant that you can use a combat cantrip with any rogue subclass. You don´t need AT (though obviously, you don't need pally 2 then, if you don't have spell slots to burn on smites - but he is correct that even AT doesn't give that many).

Will end up with enough spell slots, you do reach level 4 slot which is max smite anyways, with the additional "bonus" that you only attack once you can household the limited slots you have better. :) and yeah full assassin high elf kind of appeals to me. ^^

Would call him Lathorion "Boomshanks" Shadowstrider. :) appears out of the shadows with a literal boom and evicerates the enemy with booming blade. :D

[coredump]

basically a better Arcane trickster for the cost of rogue cap, 1 ASI and 1d6 sneak attack. :)

Not convinced it is better.
Pal2/RogX-2: +2 damage, ability to smite,
RogX: +3.5 damage (1D6), get ASIs faster, get to important class features faster.

You just don't get that many smites, and they can't be used with a ranged weapon.





Rogue 18/Barbarian 2 (Barbarian starting out, enter Rogue at 3)

Barbarian gives you Rage, Unarmored Defense (lol, 20 AC naked, 22 Actually, you have proficiency with Shields), Advantage on Dex saves, and Reckless Attacks.

You always attack in melee with Advantage,.

Not quite. Reckless Attack only works if you are attacking with Str. So its useless on your Dex build.

[Spacehamster]

Not convinced it is better.
Pal2/RogX-2: +2 damage, ability to smite,
RogX: +3.5 damage (1D6), get ASIs faster, get to important class features faster.

You just don't get that many smites, and they can't be used with a ranged weapon.






Not quite. Reckless Attack only works if you are attacking with Str. So its useless on your Dex build.

would take defence style since as pointed out 1AC is way better with only 1 attack, where do everyone get the "not so many slots for smite"
from? 1 less level 4 slot is not that much. xD

[Gtdead]

Paladin and Arcane trickster have zero synergy. Trickster already has very few precious slots.
If you want to boost your damage at high levels, just haste yourself and do cantrip+sneak attack.

Pala/Rogue at lvl 20 can use a lvl 4 spell slot to smite (you only have 1 or 2, can't do the math right now)
9.5 (attack)+13.5 (booming blade)+31.5 (sneak attack)+22.5 (smite) = 77, potentially 95 if the target moves

Rogue 20 can use a lvl 3 slot to haste himself
Ranged: Firebolt (4d10)+Hasted Attack (9.5+35)=66.5
Melee: Booming Blade (9.5+13.5+35) + Hasted attack (9.5) = 67.5, potentially 85.5 if the target moves
Ready a ranged attack with haste: Hasted attack (9.5+35) + ready attack (9.5+35)=89

Rogue 18/lock 2, dumbing int in favor of cha, using a 3rd slot to haste himself
Ranged: Eldritch Blast (4d10+20)+Hasted Attack (9.5+31.5) = 83

So yea, perhaps your build does 10 more dmg, but it's resource management makes it pretty much non viable.
The other builds just have to haste themselves, do less nova (although negligible tbh), and do it for a longer time.

[Spacehamster]

Paladin and Arcane trickster have zero synergy. Trickster already has very few precious slots.
If you want to boost your damage at high levels, just haste yourself and do cantrip+sneak attack.

Pala/Rogue at lvl 20 can use a lvl 4 spell slot to smite (you only have 1 or 2, can't do the math right now)
9.5 (attack)+13.5 (booming blade)+31.5 (sneak attack)+22.5 (smite) = 77, potentially 95 if the target moves

Rogue 20 can use a lvl 3 slot to haste himself
Ranged: Firebolt (4d10)+Hasted Attack (9.5+35)=66.5
Melee: Booming Blade (9.5+13.5+35) + Hasted attack (9.5) = 67.5, potentially 85.5 if the target moves
Ready a ranged attack with haste: Hasted attack (9.5+35) + ready attack (9.5+35)=89

Rogue 18/lock 2, dumbing int in favor of cha, using a 3rd slot to haste himself
Ranged: Eldritch Blast (4d10+20)+Hasted Attack (9.5+31.5) = 83

So yea, perhaps your build does 10 more dmg, but it's resource management makes it pretty much non viable.
The other builds just have to haste themselves, do less nova (although negligible tbh), and do it for a longer time.

"just" have to haste themself, with those few precious slots right? ;) Cant do that all day either is all Im saying. :)

[Gtdead]

One haste lasts for the whole encounter. You have enough slots to haste yourself for 4 whole encounters. You will get at least 16 rounds of value from haste and you still have 7 spells to use for utility.

You have enough slots to smite 11 times and your nova potential is 10 damage higher using 4 lvl slots, sacrificing all your utility. Sure you can smite only on crits to get maximum value, but this sounds like too big of a constraint. You fight to end the encounter, not to come first in the imaginary damage meter.

Edit: Not to mention that haste gives you an extra opportunity to apply your sneak attack if you miss the first time.

[djreynolds]

Idea is simple, one strong attack per round.
2 levels in paladin, take the rest in arcane trickster and take melee cantrips.
This lets you do 1d8 + DEX + 2(dueling) + Cantrip damage + sneak attack + possible smites.
Single devastating strike, probably get sentinel to give you more oppurtunity to do an additional
strike with sneak attack + possible smite.

The idea is solid, I like the arcane trickster. The spells can get you in undetected and out. Solid
I like paladin, smite with any classes slots. So why waste sneak levels, when AT gives both spell slots and SA
Cantrip scales, that works also

As I said the build will work, and inorder to get the big 4d8 smites you need a lot of levels of AT.

So the build works, 13 in str and dex are easy to acquire.

Make sure to take the lucky feat and martial adept, for precision, unsure if it regenerates on a long or short rest, and use bless.

No need for haste, one SA per turn. Sentinel may not fit, expensive only 6 feats/asi

This build will work. You will need a buddy in combat for advantage. I did a similar build as a mountain dwarf fighter/AT. Expertise in athletics and shield master. I would prone you next to buddy of mine, and then land the sneak attack rolling with advantage. I always had mirror image and blur running as my spells. You will lose out on the cantrip strike though. My guy was designed to stay put though. Will your rogue disengage?

I would propose a strength based rogue/paladin in plate armor. Especially to get use of sentinel if you take it. The tough thing is inorder to use booming blade cantrip, that is your action, 1 strike. No second chances, so paladins bless will help out, could use lucky feat, unsure if you can use precision from the martial adept with booming blade. So perhaps bless and mirror image running and defense style sounds good. Use of shield master and a booming blade is also in question.