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8BitNinja
2016-04-14, 02:34 PM
As many of you players of the Dungeons and the Dragons know, people who played 2e apparently didn't like the fact that in order to play a paragon of justice and righteousness, you had to play a paragon of justice and righteousness. So then the Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, and Paladin of Slaughter were created.

I personally don't like this idea, so I said "why not get my trusty friends to rewrite the names of other alignment pallies and maybe give them special powers, and also add ones for the neutral alignments?"

Because saying Paladin of Slaughter is like saying Superhero of Genocide

So here are some ideas that I have to get it started:

LE: Blackguard
Differences: Gains access to power from unholy weapons, lay on hands harms

CE: Antipaladin
Differences: The already established antipaladin

LN: Knight
Differences: No divine magic, uses the Bard spell list

ComaVision
2016-04-14, 02:39 PM
This has all been done before in Dragon Magazine.

EDIT: Dragon #310 and #312

CE: anti-paladin
NE: corruptor
LE: despot
CG: avenger
N: incarnate
CN: anarch
NG: Sentinel
LN: Enforcer

braveheart
2016-04-14, 02:43 PM
CG: Barbarian (jk/2) Holy Rager, dropping casting and picking up rage

NG: Hero, loses Lay on Hands, But gets additional skill points and has both a holy mount & Weapon instead of choosing one

TN: Justicar, Lay on hands can hurt or harm at will, but has to follow a stricter code necessitating the balancing of good and evil as well as law & chaos

Mark Hall
2016-04-14, 02:53 PM
Myrikhan (NG)

Garath (CG)

Lyan (LN)

Paramander (N)

Fantra (CN)

Illrigger (LE)

Arrikhan (NE)

Anti-Paladin (CE)

From "Plethora of Paladins" in Dragon 106, and "The Anti-Paladin" from Dragon 39.

FabulousFizban
2016-04-14, 05:35 PM
I think the CE should be called a blackguard. I mean, a blackguard is an old thing, a word, a specific kind of person, it has a definition.

wumpus
2016-04-14, 05:35 PM
CG: Liberator
CN: Rebel (try not to run "what'ch you got" into the ground).

Back in 1e days, the Dragon published the "duelist" class. It looked perfect for a Liberator base.

Note that non-LG "paladins" shouldn't be knights. Other ideas:

CG: Liberator, based on swashbucklers.
LE: Warlord, based on marshals
CE: [pick your name], based on barbarian (probably frenzied berserker as well)

8BitNinja
2016-04-14, 06:03 PM
This has all been done before in Dragon Magazine.

EDIT: Dragon #310 and #312

CE: anti-paladin
NE: corruptor
LE: despot
CG: avenger
N: incarnate
CN: anarch
NG: Sentinel
LN: Enforcer

Thanks for telling me, I've never read Dragon Magazine.

So let's make our own!

I like the names and ideas so far, let's keep it up

Gildedragon
2016-04-14, 06:57 PM
...
Fantra (CN)
...


I read that as Fanta and felt vindicated in my knowledge that orange soda tastes like slaad

So my proposals:
Paladin (LG)
Exemplar (NG)
Liberator (CG)
Legator (LN)
Enforcer (CL)

Xefas
2016-04-14, 07:17 PM
As a Hextorite, I balk at the good-o-centrism inherent in the premise.

Lawful Evil: Paladin
Lawful Good: Sissy Wuss-Wuss Gets-Nothing-Done
Lawful Neutral: Templar

Chaotic Evil: Antipaladin
Chaotic Good: I Would Insult You But Seriously The Planescape Guys Couldn't Come Up With Anything More Interesting For Your Outer Plane Than "Another Magic Forest With Elves In It"
Chaotic Neutral: N/A Every time they try to form an order of holy knights, a real paladin just throws something shiny into the room.

Neutral Evil: Worthless Parasites
Neutral Good: Adorable If They Weren't So Sad
True Neutral: Jim. Betsy. Something like that. They seem nice.

Winter_Wolf
2016-04-14, 07:44 PM
Now I want to go around introducing myself as a superhero of genocide. Because life needs more crazy. :biggrin:

Nifft
2016-04-14, 08:18 PM
LG: Champion
NG: Champion
CG: Champion
LN: Champion
TN: Champion
CN: Champion
LE: Champion
NE: Champion
CE: Champion

SirBellias
2016-04-14, 09:19 PM
LG: Champion
NG: Champion
CG: Champion
LN: Champion
TN: Champion
CN: Champion
LE: Champion
NE: Champion
CE: Champion

That's what I'd do, honestly. Or I'd just name the different classes after the orders they represent in the current game. Such as:
LN: Regulant of Hylea
CG: Vindicator of the Second Circle
And so on.

8BitNinja
2016-04-14, 10:56 PM
I read that as Fanta and felt vindicated in my knowledge that orange soda tastes like slaad

So my proposals:
Paladin (LG)
Exemplar (NG)
Liberator (CG)
Legator (LN)
Enforcer (CL)

1. A Holy Warrior of the Orange Soda deserves its own class

2. What alignment is CL?


LG: Champion
NG: Champion
CG: Champion
LN: Champion
TN: Champion
CN: Champion
LE: Champion
NE: Champion
CE: Champion

What if they are far from being a champion?


That's what I'd do, honestly. Or I'd just name the different classes after the orders they represent in the current game. Such as:
LN: Regulant of Hylea
CG: Vindicator of the Second Circle
And so on.

But that's their title, not class

Remember the anecdote about the Paladin being a Samurai?

Xefas
2016-04-14, 11:03 PM
2. What alignment is CL?

Obviously it stands for the relatively uncommon alignment, Chaotic Lawful.

They believe that order and regulations should exist, but only they, themselves, should be beholden to them. Everyone else needs to live in abject anarchy. They obey every law presented to them, while encouraging others to break them.

Gildedragon
2016-04-15, 12:06 AM
1. A Holy Warrior of the Orange Soda deserves its own class

2. What alignment is CL?



A sign that my blood sugar went too low.
Or Chaotic Lawful
Or what happens when you let a Paragon of Chaos determine what an organization of pure Chaos is: ie an oxymoron

Vinyadan
2016-04-15, 03:45 AM
Murderin, Pillagin, Abductin...
Or, given that paladins got their name from living in the king's palace, you can have dungeonin, fortressin, campanin, hamletin, forestin, islandin...
You also have the paladin of swearing, the cursadin. Or the green-thumbed paladin, the broccolin.

Nifft
2016-04-15, 06:57 AM
What of they are far from being a champion?

I don't know what syntax you're using, but it's not English.

I see several possible things you might be asking. Could you correct whatever typo you've made here?

SirBellias
2016-04-15, 07:06 AM
I thought that it was inherent in the class that they are champions of whatever ideals they hold. If they weren't champions, wouldn't they be fighters?

eru001
2016-04-15, 09:27 AM
Carl, Pete, Larry, Jeff, Bill, Dave, Sam, Steve, Roger, Steve Rogers, Mike, Alphonso, Vladimir, Octavius, Jorgito, Torvald, Xhaozing, Sanje, Mark. you can give your paladin what ever name you want regardless of alignment

Joe the Rat
2016-04-15, 09:44 AM
Myrikhan (NG)

Garath (CG)

Lyan (LN)

Paramander (N)

Fantra (CN)

Illrigger (LE)

Arrikhan (NE)

Anti-Paladin (CE)

From "Plethora of Paladins" in Dragon 106, and "The Anti-Paladin" from Dragon 39.
That was going to be my contribution. Note that each of them has a separate set of actual abilities (poison use, types of magic, allowed armors and weapons, hit dice), not just alignment baggage.

We look at LE as more of a tyranny thing, but the Illrigger was more of the word-twister and corrupting schemer - like a devil. That and Paramander (literally "Beside the World") were, to me, the best names of the lot.

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 10:33 AM
I don't know what syntax you're using, but it's not English.

I see several possible things you might be asking. Could you correct whatever typo you've made here?

I fixed the typo

Gildedragon
2016-04-15, 10:47 AM
Different nomenclature:
Vanilla (LG)
Chocolate (NG)
Green Tea (CG)
Honey (LN)
Strawberry (TN)
Wasabi Tangerine (CN)
Bitter Chocolate (LE)
Licorice (NE)
Durian Mint (CE)

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 10:54 AM
Different nomenclature:
Vanilla (LG)
Chocolate (NG)
Green Tea (CG)
Honey (LN)
Strawberry (TN)
Wasabi (CN)
Bitter Chocolate (LE)
Licorice (NE)
Durian Mint (CE)

I find this funny

LudicSavant
2016-04-15, 10:56 AM
LG: Champion
NG: Champion
CG: Champion
LN: Champion
TN: Champion
CN: Champion
LE: Champion
NE: Champion
CE: Champion

My favorite so far.

Rakaydos
2016-04-15, 10:57 AM
Angelhost (LG)
Hellbound (CE)
Devilpact (LE)
Feyknight (CG)

The idea is there is actually a source of your (un)holy powers that gets pissed if you dont follow IT's code, and may decide to take it's toys and go home.

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 11:05 AM
Angelhost (LG)
Hellbound (CE)
Devilpact (LE)
Feyknight (CG)

The idea is there is actually a source of your (un)holy powers that gets pissed if you dont follow IT's code, and may decide to take it's toys and go home.

As someone who loves to play Paladin, my powers always come from my patron deity (usually Heironeous).

I have a hard time seeing secular paladins as they literally work with the powers of the gods.

I actually have a hard time seeing anyone being secular in D&D. I can see someone not worshiping any gods, but since they sometimes appear in the flesh for all to see, I have a hard time seeing someone not believe in the existence of gods.

Rakaydos
2016-04-15, 12:40 PM
As someone who loves to play Paladin, my powers always come from my patron deity (usually Heironeous).

I have a hard time seeing secular paladins as they literally work with the powers of the gods.

I actually have a hard time seeing anyone being secular in D&D. I can see someone not worshiping any gods, but since they sometimes appear in the flesh for all to see, I have a hard time seeing someone not believe in the existence of gods.

...and Heirenius blesses you with an angel, bound to your powers so long as you follow His Will.

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 01:25 PM
...and Heirenius blesses you with an angel, bound to your powers so long as you follow His Will.

This is a cool idea, I should see if I can use this idea in a campaign sometime

OldTrees1
2016-04-15, 02:06 PM
Here



L
N
C


G
P
A
L


N
S
!
A


E
N
I
D

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 02:17 PM
Here



L
N
C


G
P
A
L


N
S
!
A


E
N
I
D



What is the !?

OldTrees1
2016-04-15, 02:46 PM
What is the !?

"Paladins!"
New name for TN Paladins!: "!"
or you could treat it as a loop and have TN Paladins! be called "!Paladins". (which would make CN Paladins called "Adins!pal")

Vinyadan
2016-04-15, 02:55 PM
What does a TN paladin even do? "Neutralizer" could be a name.

Xefas
2016-04-15, 03:59 PM
What does a TN paladin even do? "Neutralizer" could be a name.

They spread havoc and death at the behest of their unspeakably neutral masters. From the thousand mouths of the Elder Neutrals' uninterestingly beige forms, to their mortal lips, the Paladins of Something unleash words of ambivalence to cast the righteous and unrighteous together, down into the prosaic pits of the Concordant Domain, in which they will mill about at their leisure for all eternity!

Some men just want to watch the world turn. But with slightly fewer people in it.

LudicSavant
2016-04-15, 04:34 PM
They spread havoc and death at the behest of their unspeakably neutral masters. From the thousand mouths of the Elder Neutrals' uninterestingly beige forms, to their mortal lips, the Paladins of Something unleash words of ambivalence to cast the righteous and unrighteous together, down into the prosaic pits of the Concordant Domain, in which they will mill about at their leisure for all eternity!

Some men just want to watch the world turn. But with slightly fewer people in it.

Okay, you got me. I laughed. :smallbiggrin:

Nifft
2016-04-15, 04:48 PM
I fixed the typo

So, you're asking, "what if a character refuses to behave in the way that the class requires?"

Is that correct?

If so, here's your answer:

http://imgur.com/luaVHkc.png

http://imgur.com/6CVauR6.png

http://imgur.com/NZpXMrn.png

Your class membership has passed on.

Your class features are no more.

They have ceased to be.

Your membership has expired and gone to meet its maker.

Your class features are bereft of life, and rest in peace.

If you hadn't written the class name in pen on your character sheet, it would have been erased.

Your Champion benefits are now history.

You are an Ex-Champion.

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 05:09 PM
So, you're asking, "what if a character refuses to behave in the way that the class requires?"

Is that correct?

If so, here's your answer:

http://imgur.com/luaVHkc.png

http://imgur.com/6CVauR6.png

http://imgur.com/NZpXMrn.png

Your class membership has passed on.

Your class features are no more.

They have ceased to be.

Your membership has expired and gone to meet its maker.

Your class features are bereft of life, and rest in peace.

If you hadn't written the class name in pen on your character sheet, it would have been erased.

Your Champion benefits are now history.

You are an Ex-Champion.

I meant if the Champion sucked at fighting

Nifft
2016-04-15, 05:14 PM
I meant if the Champion sucked at fighting

Then you'd die in a fight.

Just like a Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Monk, or ... anyone else trying to fight, but being bad at fighting.

But why would you want to make a character that's bad at fighting, and then go get in a lot of fights?

"Dead by the third session" doesn't seem like a fun character concept to me.

So... why?

Vinyadan
2016-04-15, 05:15 PM
Some men just want to watch the world turn. But with slightly fewer people in it.

OK, then I'll go with "Neuterer".

'The Chapter of the Cushion-Cap strongly believes in the effort to avoid overpopulation, be it through schooling, seminars or more general prevention. Now please remove your clothes, while I fetch my necessaire.'

Wardog
2016-04-15, 05:49 PM
I think the CE should be called a blackguard. I mean, a blackguard is an old thing, a word, a specific kind of person, it has a definition.

In that case, we should have "cad", "bounder", and "ne're-do-well" as classes as well :smallsmile:

runeghost
2016-04-15, 06:10 PM
1. A Holy Warrior of the Orange Soda deserves its own class

2. What alignment is CL?


Light Crusier. Light Crusiers are only allowed to adventure solo, or in parties with CVs, CAs, and DDs. :smallbiggrin:

BayardSPSR
2016-04-15, 06:20 PM
I thought they were called Clerics?

LudicSavant
2016-04-15, 06:28 PM
I thought they were called Clerics?

Especially in 3.5e, where they get a code of conduct, can fall, and can out-melee and out-smite paladins.

Vinyadan
2016-04-15, 06:33 PM
I meant if the Champion sucked at fighting

This Champion has rung down the curtain and joined the Choir Invisible.

8BitNinja
2016-04-15, 11:58 PM
Then you'd die in a fight.

Just like a Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Monk, or ... anyone else trying to fight, but being bad at fighting.

But why would you want to make a character that's bad at fighting, and then go get in a lot of fights?

"Dead by the third session" doesn't seem like a fun character concept to me.

So... why?

You are right, I forgot the fact that swords can kill you.

So that's why I have this sword

Nifft
2016-04-16, 01:14 PM
What if they are far from being a champion?

You are right, I forgot the fact that swords can kill you.

So that's why I have this sword

It sounds like you're now saying that you had forgotten that weapons were a thing in RPGs.

Is that accurate, or did you have some other point that you were trying to make?

8BitNinja
2016-04-16, 01:15 PM
It sounds like you're now saying that you had forgotten that weapons were a thing in RPGs.

Is that accurate, or did you have some other point that you were trying to make?

It was just a joke on how I didn't think through what I said

Psykenthrope
2016-04-16, 05:22 PM
As someone who loves to play Paladin, my powers always come from my patron deity (usually Heironeous).

I have a hard time seeing secular paladins as they literally work with the powers of the gods.

I actually have a hard time seeing anyone being secular in D&D. I can see someone not worshiping any gods, but since they sometimes appear in the flesh for all to see, I have a hard time seeing someone not believe in the existence of gods.

Actually that's often covered by acknowledging that there are extremely powerful beings that other people worship as gods, but not thinking that they are worthy of worship. After all, since when does might make right?

goto124
2016-04-16, 10:08 PM
since when does might make right?

But that's the whole point of DnD!

And alignment is a DnD thing, right?

What non-DnD systems have paladins and how do those paladins work?

8BitNinja
2016-04-17, 01:24 AM
But that's the whole point of DnD!

And alignment is a DnD thing, right?

What non-DnD systems have paladins and how do those paladins work?

In World of Warcraft, Paladins directly draw power from The Light. The thing is, as long as theythinkwhat they are doing is right, they maintain their powers.

Wait a minute, WoW is 4e :smallbiggrin:

Synar
2016-04-17, 08:23 AM
It sounds like you're now saying that you had forgotten that weapons were a thing in RPGs.

Is that accurate, or did you have some other point that you were trying to make?

I think you're being deliberately obtuse here. :smalltongue:

Jay R
2016-04-17, 12:58 PM
As a Hextorite, I balk at the good-o-centrism inherent in the premise.

Good-o-centrim is inherent in the premise of the paladin.

That's why I balk at the premise of classes "like paladins, but not lawful or good". This assumes that good, neutral and evil are equivalent, which reduces them to parties, rather than a measure of willingness to do what's right.

Feel free to invent classes that gain powers out of their alignment, but invent all nine, since the idea of a paladin is not consistent with the idea that "I'm just like those others over there, except that I happened to choose Lawful and Good to get my powers from."

8BitNinja
2016-04-17, 04:09 PM
About the whole weapons in rpgs

RPGs don't have weapons, RPGs are weapons

Any abbreviation too, have you seen the size of some source books? They must count as lethal weapons, at least according to U.S. Standards

Cluedrew
2016-04-17, 04:12 PM
That's why I balk at the premise of classes "like paladins, but not lawful or good". This assumes that good, neutral and evil are equivalent, which reduces them to parties, rather than a measure of willingness to do what's right.I just realized... I think the Dragons of Summer Flame is actually about this problem.

In the Dragons of Summer Flame one dedicated to the evil god created an order of "paladins" dedicated to her. Anyways one of these evil paladins is one of the main characters and he goes on all these adventures and is eventually is forced to choose between good and evil. A conflict represented by the ghosts of his differently aligned parents. As I recall he initially chooses evil, casting aside the world and all the friends he made on the adventure.

But then the ghost of his father points at the fallen evil paladins. And he stops and asks "What about them?", really the only answer evil had was "what about them?" So the boy chooses good instead, casts aside all that his evil patron offered, fights and dies for and with his comrades.

In the end, he cared too much about evil to be properly evil himself.

Nifft
2016-04-17, 04:16 PM
RPGs don't have weapons, RPGs are weapons

Actually they're ammo.

Same page, different table.

8BitNinja
2016-04-17, 04:19 PM
Actually they're ammo.

Same page, different table.

The difference between knowledge and wisdom

Knowledge is knowing that the RPG is not the weapon

Wisdom is knowing that the RPG is the weapon

Nifft
2016-04-17, 04:21 PM
The difference between knowledge and wisdom

Knowledge is knowing that the RPG is not the weapon

Wisdom is knowing that the soldier is the weapon

Correction in bold.

8BitNinja
2016-04-17, 04:27 PM
Correction in bold.

I agree with correction, but it was a reference to another quote

Joe the Rat
2016-04-18, 08:48 AM
Charisma is invoking the "Chunky Salsa Rule" to describe the effects of a direct hit with an RPG?
(I love that meme)

Jay R: Part of the idea is the different ideas of what is "Right".

Individual Liberty is more important than social order, and you are free to choose the best way to promote good.

Society is best served by putting as much control in the hands of those most capable of wielding authority.

Too many knuckleheads will make the world go boom. Best to clear the table.

Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne.


Champion or Crusader (or Fanatic) makes for a better arch-class name, particularly if many of your subtypes are decidedly not on the side of the angels.

paddyfool
2016-04-18, 09:10 AM
Especially in 3.5e, where they get a code of conduct, can fall, and can out-melee and out-smite paladins.

I'd really like to play a Cleric / Prestige Paladin sometime. The whole flavour of what paladinhood is about works really nicely for prestige classes. With variable mileage in terms of power based on whether your DM allows paladin-specific feats (Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order) or not, and whether you go for a dip (all the really good stuff is in the first three levels) or full prestige class progression.

Of course, an interesting note about doing Prestige pallys for other alignments is that they could open up Druid / Prestige Pally as an option, depending on which prereqs you put in there.

LudicSavant
2016-04-18, 10:06 AM
I'd really like to play a Cleric / Prestige Paladin sometime. The whole flavour of what paladinhood is about works really nicely for prestige classes. With variable mileage in terms of power based on whether your DM allows paladin-specific feats (Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order) or not, and whether you go for a dip (all the really good stuff is in the first three levels) or full prestige class progression.

Of course, an interesting note about doing Prestige pallys for other alignments is that they could open up Druid / Prestige Pally as an option, depending on which prereqs you put in there.

You might also want to check out options like Ordained Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Fist of Raziel, Bone Knight... not to mention a host of feats and spells which ooze paladinly flavor, all of which come from the Cleric rather than the Paladin class. There is just a ton of material for building paladinly Clerics in 3.5e. Arguably more than there is for building paladinly Paladins! (For instance, the arcane wand-slinging, singing A-Game Paladin might resemble classic conceptions of the Paladin less than an Ordained Champion build)

I think a lot of people forget that Clerics get Codes of Conduct too, which can straight up be the Paladin's Code of Conduct if you like. Or a new Code fitting any alignment or creed you can come up with.

8BitNinja
2016-04-18, 10:31 AM
I'd really like to play a Cleric / Prestige Paladin sometime. The whole flavour of what paladinhood is about works really nicely for prestige classes. With variable mileage in terms of power based on whether your DM allows paladin-specific feats (Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order) or not, and whether you go for a dip (all the really good stuff is in the first three levels) or full prestige class progression.

Of course, an interesting note about doing Prestige pallys for other alignments is that they could open up Druid / Prestige Pally as an option, depending on which prereqs you put in there.

Actually, in the RPG I wrote(It's not very good, or even fully complete, a lot needs to be changed) Paladin is actually a prestige class. In the game, prestige classes are based on moral alignment, so the good prestige class for Knight is Paladin

ThinkMinty
2016-04-18, 03:14 PM
They spread havoc and death at the behest of their unspeakably neutral masters. From the thousand mouths of the Elder Neutrals' uninterestingly beige forms, to their mortal lips, the Paladins of Something unleash words of ambivalence to cast the righteous and unrighteous together, down into the prosaic pits of the Concordant Domain, in which they will mill about at their leisure for all eternity!

Some men just want to watch the world turn. But with slightly fewer people in it.

As I've said before, True Neutral is the CNN of alignments. The balance fallacy stretched into an entire ethos.


As someone who loves to play Paladin, my powers always come from my patron deity (usually Heironeous).

I have a hard time seeing secular paladins as they literally work with the powers of the gods.

I actually have a hard time seeing anyone being secular in D&D. I can see someone not worshiping any gods, but since they sometimes appear in the flesh for all to see, I have a hard time seeing someone not believe in the existence of gods.

Planescape, tho. You could believe that the gods are swindling mortals and making them into pawns in their cosmic chess games because they don't value us as people, only as servants, sycophants, and tools of their agendas.

Besides, secular just means non-religious. Something existing and something being something you want to worship are two different things. Not everyone plays a divine class, some of us are just Good for Goodness' sake.

Personally, I don't see why I should debase myself by licking the boots of some abstract embodiment of a concept who doesn't even know my name. I understand that other people find such things fulfilling, though.

As for the name, making the class Champion and opening it up to various alignments, with appropriate powersets handed out like how Clerics do, would be easier on a structural level.

8BitNinja
2016-04-18, 05:02 PM
Planescape, tho. You could believe that the gods are swindling mortals and making them into pawns in their cosmic chess games because they don't value us as people, only as servants, sycophants, and tools of their agendas.

Besides, secular just means non-religious. Something existing and something being something you want to worship are two different things. Not everyone plays a divine class, some of us are just Good for Goodness' sake.

Personally, I don't see why I should debase myself by licking the boots of some abstract embodiment of a concept who doesn't even know my name. I understand that other people find such things fulfilling, though.

Now that I know the true definition of secular, what I said makes no sense.

Vinyadan
2016-04-18, 08:39 PM
Secular is one of those beautiful adjectives which don't really mean much taken on their own. You can have a secular priest, for example. In general, it is the opposite of religious, but religious can have many different meanings. Upon what religious means in that particular contest depends what secular means.

Hawkstar
2016-04-18, 09:27 PM
So, you're asking, "what if a character refuses to behave in the way that the class requires?"

Is that correct?

If so, here's your answer:

I dunno about you, but none of my Paladins have had this sort of issue for the past 8 years. They're free to be whatever alignment they want. Some are bound only to the tenets of their deity, while the newest ones are bound to an oath, not an alignment.

8BitNinja
2016-04-18, 10:08 PM
I've always thought that the Paladin should always stay Lawful Good. The foundation of the class was that it was an honorable and chivalrous hero.

Illven
2016-04-18, 10:27 PM
I've always thought that the Paladin should always stay Lawful Good. The foundation of the class was that it was an honorable and chivalrous hero.

And I've always thought that the Paladin being only LG, gives the nasty implication that lawfulness is better then chaotic.

Kitten Champion
2016-04-18, 10:54 PM
And I've always thought that the Paladin being only LG, gives the nasty implication that lawfulness is better then chaotic.

Given it's derived from palatine, lawful seems pretty intrinsic to the concept.

Illven
2016-04-18, 11:33 PM
Given it's derived from palatine, lawful seems pretty intrinsic to the concept.

Then their should be a chaotic good only class in the PHB.

goto124
2016-04-19, 06:37 AM
And I've always thought that the Paladin being only LG, gives the nasty implication that lawfulness is better then chaotic.

Not better, just stricter.

I've always thought having a code of conduct was important to being a paladin. Well, a code of conduct doesn't necessarily make one Lawful, but it does make someone fairly strict.

Cluedrew
2016-04-19, 06:44 AM
Then their should be a chaotic good only class in the PHB.I sort of agree... but what would it be?

I gave it a few minutes but I can't think of a single chaotic good alignment archetype that doesn't have the same skill set as a more general archetype. What is the class that by definition breaks the rules for the greater good?

Vinyadan
2016-04-19, 06:50 AM
I have given it some thought.



LG : The Moralizer
NG: The Betterer
CG: The Freedomer


LN: The Orderer
NN: The Neuterer
CN: The Chaoteer


LE: The Burocrater
NE: The Worsener
CE: The Getawaywithiter

goto124
2016-04-19, 06:54 AM
NN: The Neuterer



Wait, what?

Nifft
2016-04-19, 07:20 AM
I dunno about you, but none of my Paladins have had this sort of issue for the past 8 years. They're free to be whatever alignment they want. Some are bound only to the tenets of their deity, while the newest ones are bound to an oath, not an alignment.

I've also never had that issue actually crop up in a real game -- but it was the answer to his question, so yeah. If a player deliberately has the PC violate whatever rules the class requires to maintain membership, then that character would lose membership.

Again, NOT a thing which has ever happened in any of my games.

Jay R
2016-04-19, 08:43 AM
And I've always thought that the Paladin being only LG, gives the nasty implication that lawfulness is better then chaotic.

By contrast, I think it means no more than that following a code strictly is a Lawful approach.

ThinkMinty
2016-04-19, 10:58 AM
Then their should be a chaotic good only class in the PHB.

Bards are usually required to be non-Lawful, and so are Barbarians.

It would be nice if they gave those two ACFs or archetypes built around Chaotic Good stuff, though.

8BitNinja
2016-04-19, 11:05 AM
And I've always thought that the Paladin being only LG, gives the nasty implication that lawfulness is better then chaotic.

I think that order is better than chaos, but not as much as good is better than evil

but that's my opinion

Mark Hall
2016-04-19, 02:56 PM
I'd really like to play a Cleric / Prestige Paladin sometime. The whole flavour of what paladinhood is about works really nicely for prestige classes. With variable mileage in terms of power based on whether your DM allows paladin-specific feats (Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order) or not, and whether you go for a dip (all the really good stuff is in the first three levels) or full prestige class progression.

Of course, an interesting note about doing Prestige pallys for other alignments is that they could open up Druid / Prestige Pally as an option, depending on which prereqs you put in there.

Hackmaster has two different routes to Paladinhood... and both are essentially "prestige classes".

The main way (in the PH) is to be a LG Fighter and, at 6th level, if you meet the requirements, you can become a LG Knight and, at 11th level, if you meet the requirements, you can become a Paladin.

The other option is to be a priest of The Valiant, and at about 6th level, you can switch to a version of Paladin.

8BitNinja
2016-04-19, 04:08 PM
Hackmaster has two different routes to Paladinhood... and both are essentially "prestige classes".

The main way (in the PH) is to be a LG Fighter and, at 6th level, if you meet the requirements, you can become a LG Knight and, at 11th level, if you meet the requirements, you can become a Paladin.

The other option is to be a priest of The Valiant, and at about 6th level, you can switch to a version of Paladin.

In Final Fantasy 1, the Fighter eventually became a Knight, which was basically a Paladin, but with a different name

Illven
2016-04-19, 05:11 PM
I think that order is better than chaos, but not as much as good is better than evil

but that's my opinion

I'm sorry I disagree. Knight von 10 year ordered plan for genocide, has to be a worse person then is kinda a abusive jerk.

Right?

Cluedrew
2016-04-19, 05:42 PM
I think that order is better than chaos, but not as much as good is better than evil

but that's my opinion


I'm sorry I disagree. Knight von 10 year ordered plan for genocide, has to be a worse person then is kinda a abusive jerk.

Right?I'm going to take a random guess and say 8BitNinja is Lawful and Illven is Chaotic.

8BitNinja
2016-04-19, 07:05 PM
I'm going to take a random guess and say 8BitNinja is Lawful and Illven is Chaotic.

Well, I'm a paladin, so...

I'm pretty sure I'm chaotic

Illven
2016-04-19, 08:05 PM
I'm going to take a random guess and say 8BitNinja is Lawful and Illven is Chaotic.

Nope! In real life I'd probably edge closer to lawful.

I will admit to having a sympathetic chaotic view point however. Peg as True neutral, Neutral good maybe. :smalltongue:

Cluedrew
2016-04-19, 09:11 PM
Well, I'm a paladin, so...

I'm pretty sure I'm chaotic


Nope! In real life I'd probably edge closer to lawful.

I will admit to having a sympathetic chaotic view point however. Peg as True neutral, Neutral good maybe. :smalltongue:

As I said, random guess.

8BitNinja
2016-04-19, 10:56 PM
As I said, random guess.

The chaotic thing was sarcasm, I don't want to brag, but I am a law abiding citizen, and I care deeply about respect and honor, so I am lawful (I'm probably insulting myself here)

I actually try to live up to my own "Paladin Code" in real life, where I used the rules of my faith as a foundation and put a combination of the chivalric code and my own rules on top of it

Cluedrew
2016-04-20, 06:43 AM
Don't worry 8BitNinja, I got the joke I was just trying to run with it while also replying to Illven.

8BitNinja
2016-04-20, 10:32 AM
Don't worry 8BitNinja, I got the joke I was just trying to run with it while also replying to Illven.

Okay, like I said, I'm probably going to feel like an idiot when you reply

Me after reading this:

http://memedad.com/memes/172636.gif

Probably also you while reading mine (not sure though)

Wardog
2016-04-21, 02:00 PM
Now that I know the true definition of secular, what I said makes no sense.

Another meaning that could be particularly relevent to paladins (and clerics as well) is "not part of a specific religious order".


(Other meanings (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/secular) include "long period" and "slow-changing". The connection between the two senses is that - like "temporal" - is that they relate to the impermenant physical world, as opposed to the eternal spiritual world).

8BitNinja
2016-04-21, 02:20 PM
Another meaning that could be particularly relevent to paladins (and clerics as well) is "not part of a specific religious order".


(Other meanings (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/secular) include "long period" and "slow-changing". The connection between the two senses is that - like "temporal" - is that they relate to the impermenant physical world, as opposed to the eternal spiritual world).

I think a secular cleric is more like a druid