How are players supposed to fight balors?

[gogogome]

I just TPK'd my entire group.

1st Turn
Balor summons a 2nd balor.
2nd balor casts Blasphemy, whole party is dazed, no-save.

2nd turn
Balor 1 proceeds to splatter entire party
Balor 2 casts Blasphemy

...

Whole party dead.

How are players supposed to fight this without turning themselves evil?

[Psyren]

Use the Pathfinder version.

(Also, note that Blasphemy gets owned by a 2nd-level spell.)

[Eldariel]

Be prepared with at least all-day buff spells or act first or act indirectly (through called creatures, summons, etc.). Spell Resistance spell can last all day and provides a counter to Blasphemy where it's not guaranteed to work (particularly if your caster level is buffed; level 16 caster can cast Spell Resistance at caster level 22 with Ioun Stone, class buff and Strand of Prayer Beads). Just splitting up, getting to act first and not being stacked makes it less scary. And yeah, Blasphemy in particular is sonic so Silence negates it and can be maintained indefinitely. But yeah, the Holy Word-line is powerful (and Blasphemy least so in the bunch). Note tho, as soon as they exceed Balor's HD, it becomes practically trivial. There are some ways to increase player's HD, such as Awaken (turn into a plant, Awaken yourself), Inspire Greatness and such. Also, SLAs can actually be countered in few ways though it's significantly harder than with other spells. Contingency gives casters means to respond, of course.

And, y'know, there's always the option of sending it to school before it gets a chance to Blasphemy you.

[Inevitability]

Did no one get to do anything before the balor summoned his buddy? A balor has +11 initiative: a 20th-level character should be able to beat that rather easily.

[Telonius]

Round 1 shouldn't be possible. Summon Demon functions like a Summon Monster spell, which takes 1 round to cast. Balor 2 doesn't show up until Round 2; so the party has one round to do something about it.

[Gildedragon]

Trap Balor in a dragonshard for rounds equal to CL. Dip shard in quintessence. Seal in riverine box. Forget about it

[Psyren]

Round 1 shouldn't be possible. Summon Demon functions like a Summon Monster spell, which takes 1 round to cast. Balor 2 doesn't show up until Round 2; so the party has one round to do something about it.

Surprise round maybe? Though that would still require a level 20 party to all lose to +11 initiative, so...

[gogogome]

Round 1 shouldn't be possible. Summon Demon functions like a Summon Monster spell, which takes 1 round to cast. Balor 2 doesn't show up until Round 2; so the party has one round to do something about it.

I overlooked the casting time for this. I guess that's my bad. Ok! So it gives the players 1 round to disrupt his channeling! That actually gives hope.

But still, how are they supposed to fight 2? It'd be nice to know.

[ComaVision]

But still, how are they supposed to fight 2? It'd be nice to know.

They aren't. They should be on their game enough to prevent that.

[gogogome]

Be prepared with at least all-day buff spells or act first or act indirectly (through called creatures, summons, etc.). Spell Resistance spell can last all day and provides a counter to Blasphemy where it's not guaranteed to work (particularly if your caster level is buffed; level 16 caster can cast Spell Resistance at caster level 22 with Ioun Stone, class buff and Strand of Prayer Beads). Just splitting up, getting to act first and not being stacked makes it less scary. And yeah, Blasphemy in particular is sonic so Silence negates it and can be maintained indefinitely. But yeah, the Holy Word-line is powerful (and Blasphemy least so in the bunch). Note tho, as soon as they exceed Balor's HD, it becomes practically trivial. There are some ways to increase player's HD, such as Awaken (turn into a plant, Awaken yourself), Inspire Greatness and such. Also, SLAs can actually be countered in few ways though it's significantly harder than with other spells. Contingency gives casters means to respond, of course.

And, y'know, there's always the option of sending it to school before it gets a chance to Blasphemy you.

Silence for mundanes, Thanks, I will tell this to my players.

So the plan is
1. Disrupt Balor's summon at all costs
2. Silence for blasphemy in case Balor succeeds summon.
3. Spell Resistance for blasphemy in case Balor succeeds summon.

Yeah i think that's enough for a 20th level party to win, thanks!

[Geddy2112]

Not only did a level 20 party manage to lose out to a +11 initiative Balor, but they ALL failed a DC 25 will save? Most level 20 characters will have will saves that are 20+, or at least in double digits.

After that, the party should be able to pool resources and easily defeat the thing in a couple of rounds. If not instantly through some high level casting.

The only reason this would happen is astronomically bad luck, or players not used to high level combat who are not very optimized.

[AvatarVecna]

Ignoring BS tactics like "Contingency: Celerity --> Time Stop", or "having all-day buffs up", or "being 135 ft away"...how about "Gate: Solar"? That should even the odds, even if they do manage to summon another Balor.

[gogogome]

but they ALL failed a DC 25 will save?.

Blasphemy is no-save daze. Will save is for the banish effect.


Ignoring BS tactics like "Contingency: Celerity --> Time Stop", or "having all-day buffs up", or "being 135 ft away"...how about "Gate: Solar"? That should even the odds, even if they do manage to summon another Balor.

I banned gating in anything with wish. Nothing personal, but it is a necessity.

[AvatarVecna]

I banned gating in anything with wish. Nothing personal, but it is a necessity.

Well then it's a good thing I was talking about the "Gate" spell instead of the "Wish" spell, then, isn't it?

[Eldariel]

I banned gating in anything with wish. Nothing personal, but it is a necessity.

Gate in a Balor then. Balor vs. Balor should make for a fun fight to spectate. You can even root for your Balor from the peanut gallery, and perhaps throw in a disruptive spell or a buff or two (definitely Dimensional Lock or Anchor so the thing doesn't run away). Minionmancy is a powerful tool and makes the party far less at risk. Or perhaps an Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) or something; Gate's control limit for single creatures is ridiculous CLx2 after all so finding something that can beat a Balor without you having to raise a finger is pretty easy, even if Wish-granting things are banned.

[J-H]

I ran into a few in a game with my psion. I was epic, but I didn't use an epic psionic power.... I used Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm).

Balor Fort save is +22. I think I had a DC in the low 30s, but if you can put some debuffs on them you can get their saves a bit lower. Their Reflex & Will saves are only +19.

I would look at Holy Word, Word of Chaos (both Cler 7), Antimagic field (Cler 8/Wiz 6), anything that inflicts negative levels... eh, just go down the list of debuffs and save-or-lose spells. Spell Resistance is still an issue, but if you're prepared and have multiple casters, some of it will get through.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Blasphemy is no-save daze. Will save is for the banish effect.

1. Fight the balor on another plane. (So that there is a will save for partial).
2. Have mettle.
3. Laugh at balor.

or

4. Be evil.

Seriously, though, use Pathfinder blasphemy, houserule it out of existence, or use an alternate effect (like Word of Faith from the Arcanis setting) blasphemy. (Options 1 and 2 are the best because they deal with some of the problems other than auto-daze which is specific to blasphemy). Blasphemy is one of the more broken mechanics in 3.0/3.5 as there are very few good defenses against it and nearly all high level evil outsiders have it. It is also rather easy to game the CR system or to pump caster level so that blasphemy, holy word, etc are no-save, everyone dies spells. The game is better off without blasphemy.

[Segev]

I'm amazed that nobody has suggested the obvious solution of having an evil teammate.

His job is to get the fools who succumb to blasphemy out of harm's way, and then cast planar binding to call forth the Balor that dared attack them and bind him to the party's service.

[Psyren]

Not only did a level 20 party manage to lose out to a +11 initiative Balor, but they ALL failed a DC 25 will save? Most level 20 characters will have will saves that are 20+, or at least in double digits.

After that, the party should be able to pool resources and easily defeat the thing in a couple of rounds. If not instantly through some high level casting.

The only reason this would happen is astronomically bad luck, or players not used to high level combat who are not very optimized.

He's playing 3.5, where the Balor is tougher than in PF.

In PF, Blasphemy has a will save, and the Balor can't summon a second balor (the summon must be CR 19 or lower.)

[PraxisVetli]

I'm amazed that nobody has suggested the obvious solution of having an evil teammate.

His job is to get the fools who succumb to blasphemy out of harm's way, and then cast planar binding to call forth the Balor that dared attack them and bind him to the party's service.

I vote for this!

[Eldariel]

Seriously, though, use Pathfinder blasphemy, houserule it out of existence, or use an alternate effect (like Word of Faith from the Arcanis setting) blasphemy. (Options 1 and 2 are the best because they deal with some of the problems other than auto-daze which is specific to blasphemy). Blasphemy is one of the more broken mechanics in 3.0/3.5 as there are very few good defenses against it and nearly all high level evil outsiders have it. It is also rather easy to game the CR system or to pump caster level so that blasphemy, holy word, etc are no-save, everyone dies spells. The game is better off without blasphemy.

There's few all-day ways to deal with the line of spells. Shapechange can assume forms with Magic Immunity, which are not terrible all-day forms anyways. Antimagic Field is the obvious option; if you have the opportunity to walk around in one and maintain your magic, it's one of the better defenses in the game. Favor of the Martyr grants immunity to Daze though at 1 round/level Pally spell, it takes some work to get it up all day. Then there's always the caster level buffed Spell Resistance; that spell has no CL cap so if you pump your CL as much as the Blasphemy-caster, you should be at about 50/50 at least.

And of course, on high levels there's no reason to actually die if you're killed; death is an outmoded concept by the teens. Frankly, it almost seems irresponsible to risk yourself instead of some disposable simulacrums/undead/constructs/bound fiends. At the very least keep your body in a protected place and go around in an Astral Projection.

[martixy]

1. Fight the balor on another plane. (So that there is a will save for partial).
2. Have mettle.
3. Laugh at balor.

or

4. Be evil.

Seriously, though, use Pathfinder blasphemy, houserule it out of existence, or use an alternate effect (like Word of Faith from the Arcanis setting) blasphemy. (Options 1 and 2 are the best because they deal with some of the problems other than auto-daze which is specific to blasphemy). Blasphemy is one of the more broken mechanics in 3.0/3.5 as there are very few good defenses against it and nearly all high level evil outsiders have it. It is also rather easy to game the CR system or to pump caster level so that blasphemy, holy word, etc are no-save, everyone dies spells. The game is better off without blasphemy.

Brokenness notwithstanding, intelligence, wisdom(and I'm not talking about the ingame statistics here), death ward, freedom of movement, combat readiness, nerveskitter, nova abilities, contingencies, anti-magic fields, magic circle, spell resistance and many, many more.


How are players supposed to fight this without turning themselves evil?

With guile.

Honestly, that's the point of high-level play.

If your party is unoptimized or not prepared to engage in high-level play, then don't offer it.

[LudicSavant]

You can negate Daze by a number of means, too. For example, consider a 3000gp Third Eye Clarity from the Magic Item Compendium. Those things are handy for a lot more than just Balors. :smallsmile:

[fishyfishyfishy]

Sounds like your players were just unprepared. Now they know and can grow from their experience.

[AnimeTheCat]

A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

I think that, by this definition of the summon ability the creature acted oddly, disregarding the fact that it has a 1 round cast time comparable to a summon monster spell.

Hmmm... but how to deal with it... a few magic items come to mind like a third eye of clarity which specifically says it can be activated in response to an effect that would daze or stun you. Shadow Cloak grants concealment as an immediate action, you could use that as soon as you see him summon the second balor. The Death Ward armor enhancement allows you to ignore death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects as an immediate action. Blasphemy is an evil sonic spell so I think (I could be wrong) that it qualifies as a negative energy effect. Since Blasphemy is a spell like ability you may be able to use freedom of movement as an immediate action from a magic item to get around it. That could be a stretch. A ring of spell battle may be able to be used to dispel the summon spell as an immediate action. If you would prefer you could use it to dispel the blasphemy cast by balor 2.

Otherwise, greater celerity then during your full round action cast a teleport spell to GTFO. Cheesy but it lets you properly prepare with the above mentioned spells. The balors could follow you, if they could discern where it is you went.

Those are just some ideas based on immediate actions upon seeing a balor. As long as you're not caught by surprise all of these are viable options.

[Xuldarinar]

How players are supposed to fight a Balor;

Upon seeing it, run while dodging other enemies. Fly down stairs, cross a bridge, let the party wizard stay guard and destroy the bridge. Let wizard fall off bridge with balor.

The only problem is the wizard will hoard all the experience for the encounter.

[Mato]

Wait, I recall seeing this on the MMX board. I think it was a dragonborn orc paladin 5 / barbarian 1 with headlong rush and battle jump. Due to smite being multiplied it was able to win initiative, smite twice, and deal enough to hit and kill a balor.

So I guess the easy answer is to trivialize the game using optimization to a point where 6th level builds can win?

[Psyren]

How players are supposed to fight a Balor;

Upon seeing it, run while dodging other enemies. Fly down stairs, cross a bridge, let the party wizard stay guard and destroy the bridge. Let wizard fall off bridge with balor.

The only problem is the wizard will hoard all the experience for the encounter.

Actually, if he's an NPC (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=740) then he won't get any. Score!

[Blackhawk748]

Whats that Psionic power that makes the enemy auto crit themselves? Use that while its Heightened to Hell and back (or whatever other way you want to pump the DC) and laugh as it kills itself with its own Vorpal Sword.

In other ways, just Alpha Strike the crap out of it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can tune the feats or spells to suit the power level of the party in question. For example, if you actually wanted your balor to summon another balor as a standard action, you can give it the Rapid Ability feat (which, if it did not exist already, exists now). It's more optimized than the default balor, but not unreasonable - it's on the same power level as metamagic, and, as some parties will be able to übercharge it to death in the surprise round, it pays to have a quick ally.

On the other hand, for a low-OP party, you can increase the casting time to three move actions (on consecutive rounds), keeping the balor still-but-fighting, and giving the party something of a deadline, with a lot of opportunities to flank and pile on.

Edit at above: that's death urge, and you can augment it to a pretty high base DC, with some wild surge/overchannel and Midnight Augmentation. A level 20 wilder with 4 essentia in Midnight Augmentation, and +1 ML boost (from an ioun stone, or whatever), can spend 20 + 6 + 4 + 1 = 31 effective PP, of which 7 for the base cost, and 24 for 6 augments, increasing the base DC to 10 + 4 + 6*2 = 26. It avoids the balor's slightly stronger fort save, too, which leaves +19 will versus DC 38 (34 charisma) and SR 28 versus ML 27 (Wild Surge + ioun stone). That's about 90% chance of success.

[Psyren]

Whats that Psionic power that makes the enemy auto crit themselves? Use that while its Heightened to Hell and back (or whatever other way you want to pump the DC) and laugh as it kills itself with its own Vorpal Sword.

In other ways, just Alpha Strike the crap out of it.

That power is Death Urge - but Vorpal doesn't work on a crit, it works on a natural 20. Since you crit without rolling, there was no nat 20 and it won't work.

[LoyalPaladin]

We've fought and killed three balors in my group. The first, got absolutely obliterated by our wizard and a questionable use of plane shift. The second, learned the hard way about the feat "Awesome Smite" from yours truly. And the third, actually got to cast blasphemy, but didn't realize our knight was outside his AoE and learned what an uberchager is...

[Crake]

To all the people saying that the summon ability takes 1 round, where are you getting this information from? The ability says nothing about being based on the summon monster spell, and as an SLA it has a default cast time of a standard action unless otherwise stated. As far as I am aware, nothing in the summon ability or anywhere really says that its cast time is longer than a standard action, so the summon time is the default for SLAs. Yes, this makes it painful when it succeeds, because the balor practically loses nothing (since the second balor gets its actions in place). Note that again, since it's not based on the summon monster spell, the summoned demon has ALL of it's capabilities, including those of teleportation and whatnot. The only thing that the summoned demon cannot do that it normally could would be to summon ANOTHER demon.

[Jack_Simth]

Well then it's a good thing I was talking about the "Gate" spell instead of the "Wish" spell, then, isn't it?
Ambiguous parse.

Apparent read was:
I banned (gating in anything) with wish.
-> Cannot use Wish to bring in a creature.

Apparent intent was:
I banned gating in (anything with wish).
-> Cannot bring a creature in via Gate if said creature has Wish.

[InvisibleBison]

To all the people saying that the summon ability takes 1 round, where are you getting this information from? The ability says nothing about being based on the summon monster spell, and as an SLA it has a default cast time of a standard action unless otherwise stated. As far as I am aware, nothing in the summon ability or anywhere really says that its cast time is longer than a standard action, so the summon time is the default for SLAs. Yes, this makes it painful when it succeeds, because the balor practically loses nothing (since the second balor gets its actions in place). Note that again, since it's not based on the summon monster spell, the summoned demon has ALL of it's capabilities, including those of teleportation and whatnot. The only thing that the summoned demon cannot do that it normally could would be to summon ANOTHER demon.

On page 315 of the Monster Manual, the summon ability is defined. It's ambiguous as to whether it actually inherits the casting time from the summon monster spell, though.

[Crake]

On page 315 of the Monster Manual, the summon ability is defined. It's ambiguous as to whether it actually inherits the casting time from the summon monster spell, though.

Again, as I stated, spell like abilities do not inherit the cast time of the actual spell unless the cast time is less than 1 standard action or otherwise stated, according to the rules compendium. Nowhere in the summon ability does it state an increased cast time to 1 round, so it's not ambiguous at all. Without explicit overruling, the cast time is default of standard.

[Belzyk]

Umm there is one problem with banning them from gating a Solar in. Its a typo see Solars cast as a 20th level cleric which in turn means they do not have access to wish no matter what the text says. They have access to Miracle. Which per your rules is perfectly fine. Also they could also just Gate in a level 1 kobold wizard to end their battle for them.

[Crake]

Umm there is one problem with banning them from gating a Solar in. Its a typo see Solars cast as a 20th level cleric which in turn means they do not have access to wish no matter what the text says. They have access to Miracle. Which per your rules is perfectly fine. Also they could also just Gate in a level 1 kobold wizard to end their battle for them.

Solars have wish as an SLA, not sure if that counts?

[gadren]

I remember soloing a balor years back with my beguiler1/wizard3/ultimate magus 10/ archmage 4

If I remember correctly, I hit him with a quickened empowered maximized twinned polar ray, then followed that up with Power Word: Stun in the same round. Then I finished him off pretty easily as he sat there and took it.

Though it should be noted that character got away with a LOT of metamagic and CL cheese.

[Belzyk]

Solars have wish as an SLA, not sure if that counts?

Eh I see that as raw vs rai if it casts as a cleric then how can it have a sla that's arcane. Rai I think it's a typo

[torrasque666]

Eh I see that as raw vs rai if it casts as a cleric then how can it have a sla that's arcane. Rai I think it's a typoBecause SLA's have nothing to do with a creature's normal casting abilities? By your logic a cleric that took the Communicator feat wouldn't be able to cast Arcane Mark, since Arcane Mark is arcane but they cast divine spells.

[emeraldstreak]

Round 1 shouldn't be possible. Summon Demon functions like a Summon Monster spell, which takes 1 round to cast. Balor 2 doesn't show up until Round 2; so the party has one round to do something about it.

from the MM:

Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise,
and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spelllike
ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of
opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be
disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used
to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Bronk]

Silence for mundanes, Thanks, I will tell this to my players.

So the plan is
1. Disrupt Balor's summon at all costs
2. Silence for blasphemy in case Balor succeeds summon.
3. Spell Resistance for blasphemy in case Balor succeeds summon.

Yeah i think that's enough for a 20th level party to win, thanks!

I'd also add that you're running the balor atypically, because their entry says they don't like to use their summoning ability unless they really have to. You could just run them using the suggested order of actions.

Your PCs could also use:

To counteract the Blasphemy: Silence (already mentioned), Inspire Greatness (also already mentioned), but also antimagic field or even deafen themselves, and staying well back and using ranged attacks.

There are also quite a few methods for counteracting just the daze effect here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?52836-Becoming-Immune-to-Daze

To counteract the summons: Antimagic Field again, all forms of banishment, dimensional lock, and so on.

It sounds like the party was extremely unprepared... maybe they'll be more on the ball the second time through (it sounds like you're rescinding the TPK?) Maybe let them make some knowledge rolls? If they really can't figure out how to kill it by themselves, and they're that weak, they're going to be super miffed when they find out about it's 100 foot range 100 damage death throes...

[Telonius]

from the MM:

Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise,
and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spelllike
ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of
opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be
disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities cannot be used
to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Huh, now that's interesting - the SRD seems to be incorrect on that one. I checked the Rules Compendium:


Using a special ability is often a standard action, but whether it’s a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability’s description.

...


Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they’re described.

Which seems to support the casting time being the same. But then:


Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted. If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

Curse you, "usually"! You could interpret that either way - usually one standard action / provokes attack of opportunity unless it says it doesn't provoke; or usually one standard action and provokes / unless it says it's not a standard action or that it doesn't provoke. Then it calls out spells with shorter casting times as taking a shorter time, but says nothing about spells with longer casting times. Because it's just an example and longer casting times would be assumed to have longer casting times, or because only shorter casting-time spells would be different from the "usual"? :smallmad:

[DrMartin]

Re: silence for mundanes, can someone voluntarily fail his save against a Thunderstone, and intentionally deafen him or herself?

[Andreaz]

Silence, some 40 or 50 fire resist and the normal, non-crap numbers to attack, hurt and defend yourself.

[Belzyk]

Because SLA's have nothing to do with a creature's normal casting abilities? By your logic a cleric that took the Communicator feat wouldn't be able to cast Arcane Mark, since Arcane Mark is arcane but they cast divine spells.

Eh...it's my opinion then. No offence but a Solar is the absolute embodiment of divine powers. Its not going to use arcane might? It will stick to it's divine version. Its just how I interpret it

[ksbsnowowl]

To all the people saying that the summon ability takes 1 round, where are you getting this information from? The ability says nothing about being based on the summon monster spell, and as an SLA it has a default cast time of a standard action unless otherwise stated. As far as I am aware, nothing in the summon ability or anywhere really says that its cast time is longer than a standard action, so the summon time is the default for SLAs. Yes, this makes it painful when it succeeds, because the balor practically loses nothing (since the second balor gets its actions in place). Note that again, since it's not based on the summon monster spell, the summoned demon has ALL of it's capabilities, including those of teleportation and whatnot. The only thing that the summoned demon cannot do that it normally could would be to summon ANOTHER demon.Crake is correct. The Summon unique SLA's that many outsiders have is NOT based on the Summon Monster X spell. It is a standard action to use, and the summoned creatures' action options are only limited by not being able to use their own summon abilities.


Eh...it's my opinion then. No offence but a Solar is the absolute embodiment of divine powers. Its not going to use arcane might? It will stick to it's divine version. Its just how I interpret itNo offense, your opinion is wrong.

Spell-like Abilities are neither arcane nor divine. Thus, the solar isn't using arcane might. It's using magic, in the form of untyped SLA's.

[Psyren]

Spell-like Abilities are neither arcane nor divine. Thus, the solar isn't using arcane might. It's using magic, in the form of untyped SLA's.

Actually no - SLAs are typed, and the typing is based on the list the spells come from. MM 315:


Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes—for example, true seeing. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/ wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

[ksbsnowowl]

Actually no - SLAs are typed, and the typing is based on the list the spells come from. MM 315:

That's just to determine how they function. They aren't actually arcane. The noted example of True Seeing (an errant reference to when TS worked differently for divine/arcane in 3.0; it no longer does so in 3.5, IIRC) is just telling you which version to use if there is a difference. The SLA itself is still neither.

Note earlier in that same section:

Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. It isn't arcane, even it it resembles one.

[Blackhawk748]

That's just to determine how they function. They aren't actually arcane. The noted example of True Seeing (an errant reference to when TS worked differently for divine/arcane in 3.0; it no longer does so in 3.5, IIRC) is just telling you which version to use if there is a difference. The SLA itself is still neither.

Note earlier in that same section:
It isn't arcane, even it it resembles one.

Actually it does, because if you have an Arcane SLA you proc an Arcanist Rangers Favored Enemy, so they are actually Arcane and Divine.

[AnimeTheCat]

To all the people saying that the summon ability takes 1 round, where are you getting this information from? The ability says nothing about being based on the summon monster spell, and as an SLA it has a default cast time of a standard action unless otherwise stated. As far as I am aware, nothing in the summon ability or anywhere really says that its cast time is longer than a standard action, so the summon time is the default for SLAs. Yes, this makes it painful when it succeeds, because the balor practically loses nothing (since the second balor gets its actions in place). Note that again, since it's not based on the summon monster spell, the summoned demon has ALL of it's capabilities, including those of teleportation and whatnot. The only thing that the summoned demon cannot do that it normally could would be to summon ANOTHER demon.

Monster Manual Addresses this specifically:


A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature's entry)

That sounds like a 1 round casting time to me. Additionally, in the same paragraph same page:


An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for the purposes of concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature.

Summon abilities DO follow the rules of summon monster and they DO require a 1 round casting time.

[torrasque666]

Actually it does, because if you have an Arcane SLA you proc an Arcanist Rangers Favored Enemy, so they are actually Arcane and Divine.

Not exactly. Invocations proc Arcane Hunter, not generally spell likes. But invocations also explicitly have an arcane caster level associated with them.

[Inevitability]

Re: silence for mundanes, can someone voluntarily fail his save against a Thunderstone, and intentionally deafen him or herself?

A more effective way would be to poke out their own eardrums, then communicate through telepathic bonds and predetermined hand signs. Have the cleric prepare four Remove Deafnesses to repair their ears afterwards.

High level D&D: where self-mutilation is a surprisingly sound tactic.

[ksbsnowowl]

Actually it does, because if you have an Arcane SLA you proc an Arcanist Rangers Favored Enemy, so they are actually Arcane and Divine.
No, you have that backwards. The Arcane Hunter ACF specifically calls non-invocation SLA's out as NOT being arcane.


Benefit: At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability (PH 47). The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities).

[Psyren]

That's just to determine how they function. They aren't actually arcane. The noted example of True Seeing (an errant reference to when TS worked differently for divine/arcane in 3.0; it no longer does so in 3.5, IIRC) is just telling you which version to use if there is a difference. The SLA itself is still neither.

Note earlier in that same section:
It isn't arcane, even it it resembles one.

Your quote says that it isn't an arcane spell. Not that it isn't arcane at all.

And isn't "how it functions" the entire point of typing/inheriting?

[SnugUndies]

1. Greater Spell Immunity
2. Holy Aura. SR 25 isn't a guarantee, but it's better than nothing.
3. Spell Resistance. Again, it'll work sometimes.
4. If your party is spread out enough, the 40 radius won't be able to get everyone. Long range spells and archers rejoice!
5. Greater Ring of Counterspells
6. Antimagic Field
7. Celerity and sabotage (doesn't have to be Time Stop.)

[Ortesk]

So if I am level 20, how do I beat the thing? Well, first I have an item of favor of the martyr. Then a starmantle cloak. Then I proceed to beat him and his friend down. Magic items solve all the issues.

If I am feeling annoying, I activate my once a day ring of AMF then I proceed to grapple him and make him eat dirt. Because all my fighters have grapples that laugh at a little +36

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh...it's my opinion then. No offence but a Solar is the absolute embodiment of divine powers. Its not going to use arcane might? It will stick to it's divine version. Its just how I interpret it

Prepare to have your mind blown; wish appears as a divine spell on the envy domain.

[charcoalninja]

And miracle can emulate every arcane spell except for 8th / 9ths anyway so just consider any SLAs to be Divine due to minor miracles and call it a day. Solars are basically gods anyway.