Drow Cleric vs. Rebuke Dragons

[ATHATH]

I'm currently building a rebuking-focused Cleric, and need answers to a few questions:

1. Which is better: the Drow Cleric ACF or the Rebuke Dragons ACF? I already have access (through the Initiate of Nature feat, the Substitute Domain spell, and a custom ideal) to the Rebuking of Constructs, Undead (Death Delver + Paragnostic Apostle), Animals, Plants, and creatures with the elemental subtypes (including [Cold]).
2. Does the Drow Cleric ACF actually require you to be a Drow and/or worship Lolth?
3. Can the Domain Focus ACF replace the bonus Knowledge domain granted by Cloistered Cleric?
4: If a Death Delver falls (from his deity), does he keep his Rebuke Undead ability?

[Tiri]

I'm currently building a rebuking-focused Cleric, and need answers to a few questions:

1. Which is better: the Drow Cleric ACF or the Rebuke Dragons ACF? I already have access (through the Initiate of Nature feat, the Substitute Domain spell, and a custom ideal) to the Rebuking of Constructs, Undead (Death Delver + Paragnostic Apostle), Animals, Plants, and creatures with the elemental subtypes (including [Cold]).
2. Does the Drow Cleric ACF actually require you to be a Drow and/or worship Lolth?
3. Can the Domain Focus ACF replace the bonus Knowledge domain granted by Cloistered Cleric?
4: If a Death Delver falls (from his deity), does he keep his Rebuke Undead ability?

1. Considering the amount of both dragons and vermin that have HD greater than the CR you will likely encounter them at, and the fact that Drow Cleric has a bonus with spiders, while Dragon only gets penalties of varying degree, I would say Drow Cleric has a better chance of actually controlling/rebuking things. Dragons are generally more powerful than vermin, though, so if you do manage to control one, that's good.

2. Not going by RAW.

4. The powers of a Death Delver (assuming you mean the one in HoH) are not deity-reliant. So, yes, he keeps Rebuke Undead.

[Troacctid]

1. One is better against vermin, the other is better against dragons.

2. No. Anyone can take them. The book is quite clear on this: it very plainly states that there are no prerequisites to any of the alternative class features.

3. I'm not familiar with any "Domain Focus" ACF. Do you mean the feat of the same name?

4. Death Delvers cannot fall. There is no code of conduct associated with the class.

[Tiri]

3. I'm not familiar with any "Domain Focus" ACF. Do you mean the feat of the same name?


It's in a issue of Dragon.

[ATHATH]

It's in a issue of Dragon.
It basically removes one of your domains and your spontaneous casting and doubles either the effects or number of uses of one of your remaining domain powers. I'm going to take it for the Deathbound domain to get 3x the normal Animate Dead cap.

[ATHATH]

My build and my custom ideal are as follows:

Control (TN (LN Leanings) Custom Ideal) Domains: Warforged, Deathbound, Fire, Cold, Water, Earth, Air, Undeath, Magic, Spell, Other Flavorful Domains (Domination, Tyranny, etc.)

TN (LE leanings) Silverbrow Human Drow Cleric Domain Focus (Deathbound (Knowledge removed)) Cloistered Cleric of Control (Domains: Undeath, Deathbound) 5/Death Delver of Eldath 1/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Legacy Champion 6/Uncanny Trickster 3

From what I can tell, See Through the Veil advances ALL turning, allowing me to progress my Domain and Undead Rebuking at effectively double the normal progression and Rebuke Dragons/Vermin at staggered normal progression.

@Dragons vs. Vermin:
I know that Dragons are over-HD'd, but aren't Vermin even more so?

[Tiri]

@Dragons vs. Vermin:
I know that Dragons are over-HD'd, but aren't Vermin even more so?

Well, until you reach Gargantuan size, the vermin aren't that bad. Coupled with the bonus you get with spiders from Drow Cleric, you could reasonably have a few Gargantuan Spider minions if you got your Cha and other rebuking bonuses high enough. On the other hand, Rebuke Dragons only ever gives penalties to itself and still suffers from Dragons being over-HDed, at even lower levels than Vermin.

Of course, if you do manage to enslave a dragon, it will likely be at least a little superior to the vermin you could do the same to at that level.

[ATHATH]

Well, until you reach Gargantuan size, the vermin aren't that bad. Coupled with the bonus you get with spiders from Drow Cleric, you could reasonably have a few Gargantuan Spider minions if you got your Cha and other rebuking bonuses high enough. On the other hand, Rebuke Dragons only ever gives penalties to itself and still suffers from Dragons being over-HDed, at even lower levels than Vermin.

Of course, if you do manage to enslave a dragon, it will likely be at least a little superior to the vermin you could do the same to at that level.
I've recently taken a look at the Vermin Handbook, and, aside from the Lesser Knell Beetle, the normal Knell Beetle, and the Phase Spider, Vermin don't seem to have much utility. Sure, some of them are good at scouting or fighting, but most Vermin can't really report much (plus, you only really need one or two scouts), and the ones that are good at fighting can be either replicated or rendered obsolete by the Giant Vermin spell.

[ATHATH]

Huh, looking in the table in the Vermin handbook, it looks like some of the online Vermin were skipped over. I'll check them out.

[ATHATH]

Eh, there are like, five (not counting size increases) Vermin with cool abilities in the entire handbook, and they're not that good.

The Zap Crab is cool, unique, and might have some potential, but a group of them (which is needed to get the most out of their signature ability) will get wrecked by even a minimum CL Fireball. I could advance them, but that reduces the damage of their zaps and requires DM benevolence.

The Argent Spider's Dimension Slide ability sounds cool, but you really need to use Chain of Eyes or something to use it effectively. If I really need it, I'll Alter Self into a Drow and cast Dominate Vermin on it.

The Giant Velvet Worm's Gluestring's DC will be too low to be useful by the time I can rebuke it (a Giant Velvet Worm).

The Sonic Crawler is decent at sneaking, but it can't really report back what it finds.

Finally, the only really good part about the Tangle Terror Spider is the poison that can be harvested from its hallucinogenic webs, which it will produce naturally (without needing to be Rebuked).

I think I'm going to go with Rebuke Dragons, unless someone makes a really convincing case for Rebuke Vermin.

Thanks for helping me decide!