Gateway Anime

[Wight]

See I'm running into an, Interesting issue. My Computer recently had it's monitor crack and as such in order to use it I must connect it to the television. And my Roommate wishes to watch television (we usually watch stuff together) but due to their presence I've not been able to watch hardly any anime at all. I did try to watch Naruto when I thought she'd gone to bed and she informed me that she thought it was "Too bright" (though she appreciated that the characters were not sexualized (no sniggering)). I quite enjoy watching television with this individual but am really missing my anime (getting the shakes here ;p), so I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions for Anime that perhaps we both might enjoy?

We like Star Trek (Next Gen Especially), The Walking Dead and just about anything that has to do with the apocalypse. (She cannot read that fast) I'd also like to try to avoid anything sexual at all (it'd be weird) so... Yeah. Thanks to anyone who is willing to offer suggestions.

[Grinner]

You've come to the right place.

There are a few standbys that tend to pop up these kinds of threads. Fullmetal Alchemist is always a good one. I prefer FMA: Brotherhood to FMA myself, but whatever you can get. The early seasons of Bleach are pretty cool too, but it tends to become a bit weary after a while. If she likes sci-fi, Ghost in the Shell is never a bad option.

I'm tempted to recommend Ergo Proxy, but that might be a bit much.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, by "she cannot read that fast", I take it that you want dubs, yeah?

Here's a few shows with dubs:

Moribito (http://www.hulu.com/moribito-guardian-of-the-spirit) is a low-magic fantasy inspired by medieval Asia.

Mushi-Shi (http://www.hulu.com/mushishi) is a folktale-like show about a wandering herbalist who knows how to deal with the mushi: mysterious supernatural creatures who make people's lives difficult/complicated.

Claymore (http://www.hulu.com/claymore) is dark, practically apocalyptic fantasy about monster-hunting women who wield giant swords (it gets pretty gory, though)

I don't recall anything even remotely sexualized in those, which should keep them in the clear as far as your requirements go.

[Ravian]

Cowboy Bebop is always a goldie oldie.

Might also try out Trigun.


Gateway anime can be tricky and somewhat unpredictable though.
My brother is almost entirely uninterested in anime with two exceptions.

One: Fullmetal Alchemist (Perfectly sound and I second the recommendation for it.)

Two: Kill la Kill (Which causes me to raise an eyebrow whenever he acts skeptical of me watching anything weird. BTW in case you were unaware this is probably not the best for someone interested in avoiding anything overly sexualized, despite it having my recommendation otherwise.)

[Cespenar]

Will be echoing the others, but gateway anime go like this:

FMA, Death Note, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun.

None of the "big three", not yet, if ever.

[Traab]

When you mentioned apocalypse type settings my first thought was high school of the dead, buuuuut, yeah, not the best choice if you want to avoid sexualization. I mean, its a zombie apocalypse, how awesome is that?! Its also an easy to follow, fairly short series. But the camera has two settings, panty height, and chest height. And the women have two bra sizes. Huge, and OMGWTFARETHOSE?!?!?! large.
Can you get ahold of RWBY by any chance? It sounds like an interesting series, kinda sci fi, kinda post apoc.

[Manga Shoggoth]

We like Star Trek (Next Gen Especially), The Walking Dead and just about anything that has to do with the apocalypse. (She cannot read that fast) I'd also like to try to avoid anything sexual at all (it'd be weird) so... Yeah. Thanks to anyone who is willing to offer suggestions.

Neon Genesis Evangelion (the original TV series - not the remakes) is possibly worth a look.It gets a bit psychological in the last couple of episodes, but is otherwise reasonably non-weird and not particularly sexualised. And it's all about the apocolypse.

If you want a slightly lighter story Martian Successor Nadesico is also worth a look - it's more a war rather than apocalypse story, and most of the - fairly rare - sexualising is deconstuction of the trope.

Both of those I originally saw dubbed. They are reasonable dubs (I managed to get through to the end of them), NGE being especially good for its age.

[wobner]

*snip*
Can you get ahold of RWBY by any chance? It sounds like an interesting series, kinda sci fi, kinda post apoc.

RWBY is free on youtube(legitimately free) if hooking your monitor up to the television, just look for the rooster teeth channel. the most sexualized it gets is season 2 adding very mild jiggle physics to handful of characters(its really only visible because the animation is otherwise a bit rigid, i thought the video was just artifacting) and giving them a strutting walk. Heck, they said they removed the textures for the pelvic meshes of anyone in a skirt so that no matter how outrageous the fight moves get(and they get ridiculous) a panty shot is actually impossible, the legs don't actually attach to anything. they are really rather conscientious about it
episodes are short, like 15 minutes(including intro and credits), with season 1 having most of these split into two parts, so its fairly easy to get into and make a decision about. but its rather light hearted at first(season 3 actually gets dark) if that's what is meant by "too bright"?

judging by the amount of time cartoon network devotes to it, I'd suggest Inuyashi, not my favorite, but as often as they air it... although miroku's antics might be off putting

isn't ghost in the shell a little sexualized? I mean the major's outfits tend to get... yeah. I'm not sure what the threshold here is...

[Eldariel]

Kara no Kyoukai, Fate/Zero, [Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works]. For a kind of a story, those are the frontrunners. Very beautiful to watch, great stories in the background and an enthralling world. Certainly something that doesn't really require a background in the field and should do a fine job of selling the medium (provided, again, that the story and the world is something you find agreeable).

[TeChameleon]

The Fate/etc. series are, indeed, pretty good- just be cautious, since the source material is heavily sexualized (it's an 'h-game', I think they call them..?), and I think there's a few different versions of it out there with varying degrees of... shall we say blatantness.

I'll definitely nth Cowboy Bebop- in a lot of ways, it's basically Firefly with (ex) Yakuza instead of cowboys, and with the style knob cranked up until it snapped off. And an amazing soundtrack. Oh- if you do watch it, watch the Movie in between episodes 22 and 23, since it won't make a lot of sense otherwise. Minor side note: the female lead's outfit would probably count as sexualized if anybody ever reacted to it (it's basically hot pants and a weird kind of bikini top)... as is, it's just kind of... there.

Almost anything from Miyazaki would be a good bet, too... just... avoid the ones that sound like they'd be mind-shatteringly dull, and you'll probably be alright. Laputa: Castle in the Sky, Castle Cagliostro, Howl's Moving Castle, Ponyo, Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Kiki's Delivery Service, My Neighbour Totoro, Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind, even Porco Rosso are pretty safe bets for a good watch, although... be warned that some of them are more rather more intense than the others. I'd probably rate Princess Mononoke at the top there (demonic arm possession, rampaging forest spirits, people dying in abrupt and messy fashions...), although even the relentlessly adorable Ponyo has its moments.

Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood also worth a look... and... zombie apocalypses... how has no-one mentioned Attack on Titan yet? Take the zombies, make them four and a half to five stories tall (on average), almost invincible with rapid healing, and humans having to basically become steampunk sword-swinging Spider-man to take them on. It hits a pretty sweet combination of 'oh crap, humanity is so screwed' and 'woohoo, kick their ***es!'.

[Delusion]

So, by "she cannot read that fast", I take it that you want dubs, yeah?

Here's a few shows with dubs:

Moribito (http://www.hulu.com/moribito-guardian-of-the-spirit) is a low-magic fantasy inspired by medieval Asia.

Mushi-Shi (http://www.hulu.com/mushishi) is a folktale-like show about a wandering herbalist who knows how to deal with the mushi: mysterious supernatural creatures who make people's lives difficult/complicated.

Claymore (http://www.hulu.com/claymore) is dark, practically apocalyptic fantasy about monster-hunting women who wield giant swords (it gets pretty gory, though)

I don't recall anything even remotely sexualized in those, which should keep them in the clear as far as your requirements go.

Claymore anime is a rather sexualised though. It looks like the claymore uniforms have been vacuum sealed or something. The manga was much better in that regard >.>

[Wight]

Wow. First off I really did not expect such a quick turnover. Thank all of you (2nd person) for your suggestions. I have never watched Full Metal Alchemist so perhaps that is a good choice. But the rest are on my download (If I can) List. Perhaps when it is morning I'll edit this post and create a table of what I should get and why... But it is midnight and I require sleep. Gonna edit bad spelling too.

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[Eldariel]

The Fate/etc. series are, indeed, pretty good- just be cautious, since the source material is heavily sexualized (it's an 'h-game', I think they call them..?), and I think there's a few different versions of it out there with varying degrees of... shall we say blatantness.

Fate/Stay Night: UBW is indeed based on what was originally an eroge, but rather on the "Bleached Underpants (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BleachedUnderpants)" re-release that removes any explicit scenes (though there's the undercurrent anyways). Fate/Zero never had any such themes, though all the major Type-Moon products do generally deal with some very dark themes (I'm considering KnK, Tsukihime and Fate franchises here), and there's blood, gore and humanity at its worst (though simultaneously also at its best).

[Cespenar]

Fate series has (in my experience) scared off several anime introductees, so I'd not be quick to add them onto the list.

[hamlet]

I'm still new to the Anime scene, my wife having gotten me into it, or at least well past the Shonen Hurdle (i.e., all I grew up with was Dragon Ball Z and that still makes me roll my eyes up in my head).

Anyway.

Try out Madoka Magica. It's relatively short and actually quite good. And the Dub is excellent, perhaps a little better than the sub. *dons flame proof underwear*

Any Miyazaki movie. No, seriously. Any of them. Except Grave of the Fireflies, which is great, but so depressing.

And if you're just looking for good old fashioned stupid fun, Slayers is great as is Trigun.

[8BitNinja]

Check out Tokyo Ghoul. If you want a dark and edgy anime, this is a good one. If you're worried about oversexualization, there is none to be found here. Though not having to do with the apocolypse, it did remind me vaguely of Vampire: The Masquerade

[Yora]

I also add my recommendation to Ghost in the Shell. Was the first anime show I watched by myself. (I'd watched Rune Soldiers with friends before, though.) For people who like western sci-fi TV shows, I think it's probably a pretty good entry to open to the medium.

Seirei no Moribito is also great. It's a fantasy series about a mercenary bodyguard protecting a prince from assassins send by his own father. And then it turns into a pretty interesting and unusual conspiracy type thing.

Another one of the first things I watched is Azumanga Daioh. It's pure comedy with barely and plot, but I think completely hilarious.

Right on the other end of the spectrum is Mushishi. It's about a kind of exorcist traveling medieval Japan helping people with their hauntings by nature spirits. Very beautiful and also pretty dark. It's not violent, but there are rarely happy endings. Usually he can only contain the damage and keep it from spreading, but things never return to how they have been before.

[AtlanteanTroll]

All the Cowboy Bebop but no Samurai Champloo?

[Lethologica]

Watanabe tier:
Cowboy Bebop
Samurai Champloo

Shounen action starter pack:
Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
Attack on Titan
Death Note
One Punch Man
Hunter x Hunter
Soul Eater

Movie starter pack:
Spirited Away
Princess Mononoke
Princess Kaguya
Ghost in the Shell (1995)
Wolf Children
Millennium Actress
Sword of the Stranger

Sports starter pack:
Ping Pong The Animation
Haikyuu!
Free!
Hikaru no Go
One Outs

Contemplative starter pack:
Mushishi
Kino no Tabi
Natsume Yuujinchou
Haibane Renmei

Slice of Life starter pack:
K-On!
Azumanga Daioh
Nichijou
Daily Life of Highschool Boys

Misc:
Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Seirei no Moribito
Kids on the Slope (excluded from Watanabe tier because reasons)
Scrapped Princess

[Flickerdart]

I don't know how good the dub is, but Angel Beats is awesome and has relatively little tropey anime weirdness.

[Kato]

I'll just join the crowd with the 100th Cowboy Bebop as best Gateway anime. Maybe because it is so close to Western animation, at least from the look of it.
I guess if you're not really insisting on anime, you could try to ease her into it with Avatar, or another Western cartoon with anime influences?

Not that I disagree with most of the things mentioned so far, e.g. FMA: Brotherhood is definitely worth to watch, many recommend things that are held in high regard by anime fans but I wouldn't consider gateway in the meaning that it is good for people who are not used to it. (i.e. Neon Genesis is quite strange in many ways and not everyone is into that. Or without turning this into a huge discussion, PMMM also is not for everyone, especially newcomers)

Princess Mononoke is a good starter movie, in my opinion. Or maybe Grave of the Fireflies if you are into that. (And of course many others, but again, going but what I would consider gateway)

Death Note is also not too out of the ordinary for newcomers, ("realistic" art style, not really strange story line, no fanservice, etc) though if I'm totally honest, I'd pick Steins;Gate above it in almost every regard, if you can handle the weird time travel parts.


Though, for more reliable recommendations, as always, it would be nice to know what she is into otherwise, because listing anime we enjoy is not always the best approach.

[Knaight]

If you're good with stuff with romantic themes (but not fanservice type BS), give Honey and Clover and Princess Jellyfish a try.

[8BitNinja]

I started with Record of the Lodoss War, though I liked it, I'm pretty sure I am in the minority

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't know how good the dub is, but Angel Beats is awesome and has relatively little tropey anime weirdness.

Both those statements are disputable.

It has lots of the overexaggerated slapstick comedy present in anime. It's also very rushed, though I don't hate it.

[Olinser]

There is a shocking lack of Vampire Hunter D in this thread.

[8BitNinja]

Otacon says that being attacked by a cyborg ninja is just like one of his Japanese animes

[Reddish Mage]

I got to second the classic gateways:

Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist...basically the old Cartoon Network but each one is serious and in its own way, more adult then typical fare. Also nothing too "anime" about them in humor or art style (except Fullmetal Alchemist is pretty straight Shounen).

Neon Genesis Evangelion was also mentioned. If you find yourself more fascinated then creeped out, anime is for you.

I am surprised no one mentioned Akira.


I wouldn't recommend starting with Hayao Miyazaki, I just got bored with Priclncess Mononoke.

I started with a lot of D&D fare (don't know why that might be good here), Record of the Lodoss Wars, Slayers (too very different D&D based anime) then moved on.

Ranma 1/2 is still my favorite as most hilarious anime comedy at all time (can't say why but I think it would be popular around these here internets :smallwink:).

[Zalabim]

Both those statements are disputable.

It has lots of the overexaggerated slapstick comedy present in anime. It's also very rushed, though I don't hate it.

I think it definitely has tropey weirdness, even if it isn't all anime sourced. It is indisputably awesome though. Rather than rushed, it's like a roller-coaster ride. If it took longer to get through, I don't think it'd be as good, effective, or recommendable.

In this situation though, it's not what I'd recommend.

[Lethologica]

Angel Beats was tropey, but not weird. I see it as Haibane Renmei lite, in terms of emotional and creative depth, and thus I would find it difficult to recommend under most circumstances. That said, I know several people who liked it, and I know it's generally well-regarded, so...tastes differ. /shrug

[BeerMug Paladin]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, "Tokyo Godfathers". It's a movie.

[Togath]

Throwing in another vote for Cowboy Bebop and Mushishi. Utterly different genres, but I'm really fond of both. ^-^

[Ramza00]

Cowboy Bebop the Movie, which is a self contained movie which you can easily watch without any prior knowledge of Cowboy Bebop. It is a good introduction to the style of Bebop which is a mixture of noir, 70s cop drama, space sci fi, just general fun and awesomeness, and incredible music.

Think of Cowboy Bebop the Movie as a self contained story which is the length of a 4 episode anime arc (its actually a little bit longer with 115 minutes vs 25 minutes)


So one of the key characteristics of film noir is that its oneiricwhich means relating to a dream or creating a surreal environment where you are not sure you are in reality or are in a dream.

This is because in dreaming certain areas of the brain are more active and certain areas of the brain are less active. For example your ability to have focused attention remains in a dream yet the ability to challenge a dream / find faults in logic only occurs while you are awake or while you are becoming awake. Another key feature about dreaming is that you can't actually read, for key areas relating to your mind decoding visual signals and converting them to words are underactive and thus you just get garbly goop. Thus in film noir you have external characters that explain what a newspaper says instead of you reading it, or you just instantly know what the paper says without reading it. Furthermore in dreaming your senses are skewed you still have the visual sense but the rest of the senses are not synchronized in the same way that they are when you are awake.

Thus in dreaming sometimes you feel like you are in a surreal painting for your brain can't synchronize data as well as it can while you are awake. Now part of this is a good thing for it helps your brain notice patterns that you sometimes do notice while awake, it can enhance creativity, but it can also make it harder to do thinking skills where you challenge an idea and act analytical when you are in a oneiric state.



One of the main themes of cowboy bebop in general and almost all film noir is this oneiric state, but it is looked into even more heavily via the Villain of the Bebop Movie Vincent than it is during the 26 episodes of the Bebop Anime (though individual episodes explore this theme just as intensively). Vincent calls this world a form of purgatory and who wants to destroy the world just to wake everyone up from the dream. In addition Vincent's ally Lee Sampson is a hacker, a person who wants to hack reality and to challenge what is possible, literally challenging the dream.




There is a fan theory that the whole entire Bebop Movie is just an internal dream of Spike at the very beginning. And that the Vincent character is spike trying to make sense of all that is happening prior to his final confrontation with Vicious (the bebop movie occurs at episodes 22 and 23, after Spike meets Andy the Cowboy, who is seen as a cameo as Andy the Samurai, episode 23 is Brain Scratch digitalizing the soul episode, and episode 24 is Faye Episode Hard Luck Woman where Faye remembers her past, and episode 25 and 26 are the Real Folk Blues where Spike decides to stop running and eventually confront vicious even if it means waking up from the dream)

In other words Spike is wrestling with his own inner demons which are represented by the character Vincent which is in many ways a character very similar to Spike himself but just more twisted. (It is also a character who is like spike prior to meeting Julia)

The reason for the theory is this, the whole movie opens with Jet trying to wake up Spike for he found a bounty and he wants them to go after them. Spike moves but he does not awake, he is still in the dream.

See here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owgu_DxlwVU


After you watch the movie you will want to watch all 26 episodes of Bebop the Anime as well.

See You Later Space Cowboy :smallsmile:

[Draconium]

What if, instead of introducing your roommate directly to anime, you introduce her to anime-inspired shows first? RWBY was already mentioned, and it's a good starting point. Avatar: The Last Airbender and the sequel series, The Legend of Korra, are also good shows to start with. They're created in the West, but the influence of anime on these shows is fairly obvious, and they're pretty good shows.

For actual anime, I'd also recommend Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Or maybe the first Fullmetal Alchemist, though I haven't actually seen it. At any rate, they're pretty good, and they also have a "Western" feel to them that makes to easier for Western audiences to get into them, at least IMO. Attack of Titan is also a pretty good show if you like action and apocalyptic scenarios. I personally started with Soul Eater - it's not exactly the least tropey or sexualized, but once I got past those aspects, I actually found a show I really enjoyed.

A few people have stated that Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a good show. While it is, I wouldn't recommend it for a first anime. It's a deconstruction of the "magical girl" genre, and while it's enjoyable even without understanding the various tropes normally present in the genre, it becomes a lot more enjoyable if you do. It also gets fairly dark, and sometimes depressing, so if your roommate is not into that sort of stuff, I would save it for later.

[Velaryon]

See I'm running into an, Interesting issue. My Computer recently had it's monitor crack and as such in order to use it I must connect it to the television. And my Roommate wishes to watch television (we usually watch stuff together) but due to their presence I've not been able to watch hardly any anime at all. I did try to watch Naruto when I thought she'd gone to bed and she informed me that she thought it was "Too bright" (though she appreciated that the characters were not sexualized (no sniggering)). I quite enjoy watching television with this individual but am really missing my anime (getting the shakes here ;p), so I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions for Anime that perhaps we both might enjoy?

We like Star Trek (Next Gen Especially), The Walking Dead and just about anything that has to do with the apocalypse. (She cannot read that fast) I'd also like to try to avoid anything sexual at all (it'd be weird) so... Yeah. Thanks to anyone who is willing to offer suggestions.

Can we clarify a bit what constitutes sexual content you need to avoid? Some are obvious (Highschool of the Dead's gratuitous focus on panty shots and bouncing boobs, for example), but does this also extend to shows with a brief nude scene played for comedy? Shows with a scene that happens in a bath house? Shows where a male character gets branded with a "pervert" label because of an accidental occurrence where he touches/sees/otherwise accidentally encounters one of the females, and this is played for comedy? Because that covers a large territory, probably eliminating one or more entire genres of anime.

A lot of good ones have been suggested already. I'd like to add Knights of Sidonia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htgcz87-Wqk) for a sci-fi anime set in space, though it's closer to Battlestar Galactica than Star Trek. Parasyte (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPbJ_LtyRBs) is an interesting one as well, though you're in a better position to judge whether that would appeal to your friend than we are.

It's very slow to get going, but I think Blood+ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeKvTXNUaM) may be worth a watch. The chiropterans are closer to vampires than zombies technically, but mostly they're just monsters. There's good action once the story starts to pick up, and a pretty cool plot as well.



isn't ghost in the shell a little sexualized? I mean the major's outfits tend to get... yeah. I'm not sure what the threshold here is...

At first glance yes, but... not really. While the major's outfits show a lot of "skin" (she's mostly robot so it's not really flesh), her completely blasé attitude and her cold personality make her the unsexiest mostly naked woman I've ever seen in an anime. She's the sexual equivalent of a department store mannequin, just with a much more badass personality and actual facial features.



I started with Record of the Lodoss War, though I liked it, I'm pretty sure I am in the minority

I found it a little cheesy (especially the voice dub), but a good time overall. It's pretty cool that you're basically watching someone's D&D game turned into an anime.

[8BitNinja]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, "Tokyo Godfathers". It's a movie.

Does it have anything to do with The Godfather?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Rather than rushed, it's like a roller-coaster ride. If it took longer to get through, I don't think it'd be as good, effective, or recommendable.

The characters are shallow gags until they get their designated backstory, which violates the "show don't tell" rule of fleshing out characters even if it's still good enough to be the best part of the show. There's too much time spent on jokes and half the cast ends up never getting even that level of backstory. The relationship between Kanade and Kuzuru (Otonashi) doesn't really get the time it needs to make the very last scene effective. And I wouldn't be surprised if you had just completely forgotten about the plot with the shadow things, considering it only took one of those shallow characters and never actually went anywhere despite the huge hook of "the creator of Angel Player."

[8BitNinja]

People keep saying Cowboy Bebop

I'm wondering how long it is, because I want to check it out now

[Seppl]

A few people have stated that Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a good show. While it is, I wouldn't recommend it for a first anime. It's a deconstruction of the "magical girl" genre, and while it's enjoyable even without understanding the various tropes normally present in the genre, it becomes a lot more enjoyable if you do. It also gets fairly dark, and sometimes depressing, so if your roommate is not into that sort of stuff, I would save it for later.Gateways do not necessarily have to be light or funny. For example, Madoka was my gateway anime, really showcasing that the medium can also be about heavy, thought-provoking themes, instead of being mostly teenage power fantasies¹. It really depends on the TO's roommate. Many people like dark and serious, and just as many people hate it. Same for light and funny. I did not even know I would like that kind of stuff before I tried, I only watched Madoka because someone who knew me well insisted that I should.




¹: Not that it is, but this is certainly the impression that a casual observer gets from the most popular and well-known shows. Also, Madoka provides a nice contrast for looking at first glance exactly like that kind of immature anime that is aimed at little girls who ride little pink ponies.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

People keep saying Cowboy Bebop

I'm wondering how long it is, because I want to check it out now
26 episodes, and Hulu has subs and dubs (http://www.hulu.com/cowboy-bebop). (I should note that, in my opinion, Bebop sets the gold standard for anime dubbing. Steve Blum nails his performance, for one.)

It's a sci-fi anime heavily inspired by United States culture, particularly jazz and noir. It's rather episodic, very reflective, sometimes moody, and then it mixes in some hectic action sequences.

[Velaryon]

Does it have anything to do with The Godfather?

Nope. It's about three homeless men (well, one is a transwoman) who find an abandoned baby on Christmas Eve and try to rescue it/find its family. Other than its casual use of a few terms now considered pretty offensive (mostly directed at the aforementioned transwoman), it's not bad, though it wasn't really my kind of movie.

[Ramza00]

People keep saying Cowboy Bebop

I'm wondering how long it is, because I want to check it out now

26 episodes that are 25 minutes each

a movie that is 115 minutes

so about 765 minutes or put another way 12 and a half hours of pure fun.

And this is not counting the music where there is almost 7 hours of some of the best Yoko Kanno music of all time ( those 7 hours are not counting the cowboy bebop drama cds but instead just the music Yoko Kanno had a hand in specifically for cowboy bebop). Now most people do not care about music so you may be wondering why I am mentioning it so heavily...well its because it is that good.

(Once you introduced to Yoko Kanno you will notice how superb many of your soundtracks are and they have a huge range of style differences and yet almost all of it is good, that said I am not familiar with her doing any big hits in the last 5 years for she is not publishing as much as she used, but when you have a 30 year career and you personally have composed over a 1000+ songs focusing on a specific 5 year period is kinda silly)

------

And like it was said the dub is excellent, it is not an uncommon thing for people who love subs to think the dub is actually superior than the sub in this one instance. Steve Blum nailed spike and you can tell he just breathed the character to the point you can't tell its not the original voice actor.

[Lethologica]

isn't ghost in the shell a little sexualized? I mean the major's outfits tend to get... yeah. I'm not sure what the threshold here is...
Different incarnations to different degrees. In the manga, gratuitous sexualization is everywhere. In the 1995 movie and its sequel Innocence, nudity is instead used in a thematically powerful way, but it's definitely present. In SAC season 1, there's the outfit, which is less revealing than the movie, but also doesn't carry the same thematic weight IMO (not that my opinions are incontrovertible; this feminist writer (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/08/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-3/), for example, prefers the SAC incarnation to the movie's). In season 2 they get rid of the outfit and basically dress Kusanagi like everyone else, but 2nd Gig has a few uncomfortable episodes nonetheless.

No, I didn't talk about Arise, and I'm not going to.

[Draconium]

Gateways do not necessarily have to be light or funny. For example, Madoka was my gateway anime, really showcasing that the medium can also be about heavy, thought-provoking themes, instead of being mostly teenage power fantasies¹. It really depends on the TO's roommate. Many people like dark and serious, and just as many people hate it. Same for light and funny. I did not even know I would like that kind of stuff before I tried, I only watched Madoka because someone who knew me well insisted that I should.

You misunderstand - I was saying it's not a good gateway because its a deconstruction show, which are usually a lot better if you understand what's being deconstructed. I simply added in that it was a dark show as an additional warning, in case they decide they want to watch it anyways. Not everyone enjoys dark shows, and Madoka certainly doesn't look dark at first, so it may catch people off-guard.

Also, it is still enjoyable even if you go into it blind, without any preconceptions about what will be deconstructed - it was that way for me, and seems like it was that way for you, too. However, my enjoyment of the show went up after I learned a bit more about the genre, and how Madoka turned it on its head. Because of this, I feel like it would have been more enjoyable if I had gone into the show knowing these tropes, and had a first-hand experience of them being subverted on my first run.

[Hiro Protagonest]

26 episodes, and Hulu has subs and dubs (http://www.hulu.com/cowboy-bebop). (I should note that, in my opinion, Bebop sets the gold standard for anime dubbing. Steve Blum nails his performance, for one.)

Uh, Hulu only has dubs for the first four episodes. Which is too bad, because Steve Blum.

Also when did it get added to Hulu?!

[Lethologica]

You misunderstand - I was saying it's not a good gateway because its a deconstruction show, which are usually a lot better if you understand what's being deconstructed. I simply added in that it was a dark show as an additional warning, in case they decide they want to watch it anyways. Not everyone enjoys dark shows, and Madoka certainly doesn't look dark at first, so it may catch people off-guard.

Also, it is still enjoyable even if you go into it blind, without any preconceptions about what will be deconstructed - it was that way for me, and seems like it was that way for you, too. However, my enjoyment of the show went up after I learned a bit more about the genre, and how Madoka turned it on its head. Because of this, I feel like it would have been more enjoyable if I had gone into the show knowing these tropes, and had a first-hand experience of them being subverted on my first run.
Honestly, not only is Madoka Magica only debatably a deconstruction to begin with (many elements people cite as genre deconstructions are more like genre staples), but the elements that are deconstructive are apparent enough on first viewing.

[Draconium]

Honestly, not only is Madoka Magica only debatably a deconstruction to begin with (many elements people cite as genre deconstructions are more like genre staples), but the elements that are deconstructive are apparent enough on first viewing.

*shrugs* Well, I am speaking from my personal experience with the series. YMMV. If the OP does decide to watch it, remember, there's the original 12-episode series, then the three movies (the first two serving as retelling of the series, then the third serving as a sequel, though it's generally considered not as good as the original series). All of these are on Netflix, last time I checked.

[Velaryon]

Different incarnations to different degrees. In the manga, gratuitous sexualization is everywhere. In the 1995 movie and its sequel Innocence, nudity is instead used in a thematically powerful way, but it's definitely present. In SAC season 1, there's the outfit, which is less revealing than the movie, but also doesn't carry the same thematic weight IMO (not that my opinions are incontrovertible; this feminist writer (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/08/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-3/), for example, prefers the SAC incarnation to the movie's). In season 2 they get rid of the outfit and basically dress Kusanagi like everyone else, but 2nd Gig has a few uncomfortable episodes nonetheless.

No, I didn't talk about Arise, and I'm not going to.

I forgot about how many different incarnations of Ghost in the Shell there are. My comment above is primarily with regard to Standalone Complex.

[Reddish Mage]

26 episodes that are 25 minutes each

a movie that is 115 minutes

so about 765 minutes or put another way 12 and a half hours of pure fun.

I can understand you like the movie, but it was a generic Hollywood formulai and a flop, it is nothing like the series!

The series is about a gang of "cowboy" eccentric misfits ply their trade as bounty hunters aboard a hunk-a-junk ship outfitted with tech that would seem bulky and old in the late 90's in the backwater places of the solar system set to jazzy/blues mixes.

The movie takes place in the urban center of their universe, the capital city on Mars, a plant we hear about but never see in the show proper as the place they'd go and live if they strike it rich, and from the first five minutes sets up the crew taking on a ridiculously OP gang of terrorists threatening to do the equivalent of nuking New York. That sort of scale of the threat, the background urbanization, the cleanness of the CGI fighters Spike and Feye pilot, the whole experience from the get go... from the clean glossiness of the Cockpick interior that greets you upon placing in the DVD...the music....nothing of the movie is like the series.

[Ramza00]

Reddish Mage your post possess spoilers which you may not want to have when you are trying to convince someone to watch something they never saw before.

Second I can list numerous episodes from the tv show that the movie is like. But I am not going to spend time trying to convince you, it is obvious our tastes just differ, after all you found princess mononoke boring :smallsigh:

I am glad you are capable of finding entertainment you find enjoyable, but what you find enjoyable is different than me, and vice versa, and thus our various criticisms are partly just matter of personal preference.

[BiblioRook]

I found it a little cheesy (especially the voice dub), but a good time overall. It's pretty cool that you're basically watching someone's D&D game turned into an anime.

From what I heard, this is literally how it came about...

[DelphiSage]

How do I watch anime without having to watch anime?

[BiblioRook]

How do I watch anime without having to watch anime?

Read manga?

[wobner]

At first glance yes, but... not really. While the major's outfits show a lot of "skin" (she's mostly robot so it's not really flesh), her completely blasé attitude and her cold personality make her the unsexiest mostly naked woman I've ever seen in an anime. She's the sexual equivalent of a department store mannequin, just with a much more badass personality and actual facial features.



Different incarnations to different degrees. In the manga, gratuitous sexualization is everywhere. In the 1995 movie and its sequel Innocence, nudity is instead used in a thematically powerful way, but it's definitely present. In SAC season 1, there's the outfit, which is less revealing than the movie, but also doesn't carry the same thematic weight IMO (not that my opinions are incontrovertible; this feminist writer (http://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2014/08/08/ghost-in-the-shell-the-majors-body-3/), for example, prefers the SAC incarnation to the movie's). In season 2 they get rid of the outfit and basically dress Kusanagi like everyone else, but 2nd Gig has a few uncomfortable episodes nonetheless.

No, I didn't talk about Arise, and I'm not going to.

keep in mind I watched the movie on VHS(that should give you a hint of how long ago)my recollection is a little hazy I'm sure, and I agree, at least from what I recall, that it wasn't presented in an overly sexual, provocative way, it still, nonetheless, had her running around topless for what? the first 10 minutes or so of the show. metal or not, it was depicted being as real as anything else in the show. and I would describe her outfit in the series as a playboy bunny costume sans the rabbit tail. While I find the mannequin comparison pretty apt, its still a provactive outfit, and without knowing the roommates tolerance...

That said I would not recommend the series as a gateway anime, I personally found it far too confusing and frustrating to be an entry level show(also quite annoying at times). The movie, if you can tolerate the nudity, I remember being quite good, but for the series, I would wait till you got a few more shows under your belt to delve into it. You might enjoy the series, (I actually did for the most part) I just wouldn't start there.

[8BitNinja]

26 episodes that are 25 minutes each

a movie that is 115 minutes

so about 765 minutes or put another way 12 and a half hours of pure fun.

And this is not counting the music where there is almost 7 hours of some of the best Yoko Kanno music of all time ( those 7 hours are not counting the cowboy bebop drama cds but instead just the music Yoko Kanno had a hand in specifically for cowboy bebop). Now most people do not care about music so you may be wondering why I am mentioning it so heavily...well its because it is that good.

(Once you introduced to Yoko Kanno you will notice how superb many of your soundtracks are and they have a huge range of style differences and yet almost all of it is good, that said I am not familiar with her doing any big hits in the last 5 years for she is not publishing as much as she used, but when you have a 30 year career and you personally have composed over a 1000+ songs focusing on a specific 5 year period is kinda silly)

------

And like it was said the dub is excellent, it is not an uncommon thing for people who love subs to think the dub is actually superior than the sub in this one instance. Steve Blum nailed spike and you can tell he just breathed the character to the point you can't tell its not the original voice actor.


26 episodes, and Hulu has subs and dubs (http://www.hulu.com/cowboy-bebop). (I should note that, in my opinion, Bebop sets the gold standard for anime dubbing. Steve Blum nails his performance, for one.)

It's a sci-fi anime heavily inspired by United States culture, particularly jazz and noir. It's rather episodic, very reflective, sometimes moody, and then it mixes in some hectic action sequences.

Sounds like my kind of thing, I'll check it out

[Lethologica]

keep in mind I watched the movie on VHS(that should give you a hint of how long ago)my recollection is a little hazy I'm sure, and I agree, at least from what I recall, that it wasn't presented in an overly sexual, provocative way, it still, nonetheless, had her running around topless for what? the first 10 minutes or so of the show. metal or not, it was depicted being as real as anything else in the show. and I would describe her outfit in the series as a playboy bunny costume sans the rabbit tail. While I find the mannequin comparison pretty apt, its still a provactive outfit, and without knowing the roommates tolerance...

That said I would not recommend the series as a gateway anime, I personally found it far too confusing and frustrating to be an entry level show(also quite annoying at times). The movie, if you can tolerate the nudity, I remember being quite good, but for the series, I would wait till you got a few more shows under your belt to delve into it. You might enjoy the series, (I actually did for the most part) I just wouldn't start there.
Full disclosure: the two movies that introduced me to anime as an elementary-school kid were My Neighbor Totoro and...Ghost in the Shell. So I may be a bit biased. :smalltongue: (I, too, watched them on VHS. But that dates my parents more than myself.)

[KillingAScarab]

It's very slow to get going, but I think Blood+ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeKvTXNUaM) may be worth a watch. The chiropterans are closer to vampires than zombies technically, but mostly they're just monsters. There's good action once the story starts to pick up, and a pretty cool plot as well.If you want something quicker, you could just watch Blood: The Last Vampire (2000). They both feature Saya, but Blood+ was a re-imagining.While Saya is certainly never sexualized in Blood: The Last Vampire, it features a dead prostitute at one point (which is, of course, naked).

The TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/BloodTheLastVampire) page notes that the manga was made "Hotter and Sexier."

There are also two African-American men who really aren't portrayed in a good light. One of them is just there to become a bloody mess.
Blood: The Last Vampire gets... well, bloody, and I imagine Blood+ does, too. If you don't mind something which is slow to develop, but also has considerably less blood I enjoyed Witch Hunter Robin. It uses the same sort of mixture of monster-of-the-week and conspiracy which I liked in The X-Files, but with more super powers on the protagonists' side.


People keep saying Cowboy Bebop

I'm wondering how long it is, because I want to check it out nowIf you only want to check it out, you might consider finding a copy of Best Sessions (http://www.amazon.com/Cowboy-Bebop-Sessions-K%C3%B4ichi-Yamadera/dp/B00006LPAY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460873250&sr=8-1&keywords=Cowboy+Bebop+Best+Sessions). The first DVD has 3 episodes of "director's choice," the second DVD has 3 "fan favorites." This doesn't include my favorites, but "Asteroid Blues" is a perfect introduction to the premise. As I understand it the discussion of a live action movie was basically around making "Asteroid Blues" and would have included Antonio Banderas in the cast. Funny, considering that episode is an homage to Desperado. It is completely redundant if you're planning to own the series, but the packaging for Best Sessions ties into the last fan favorite, "Hard Luck Woman."

[Zalabim]

The characters are shallow gags until they get their designated backstory, which violates the "show don't tell" rule of fleshing out characters even if it's still good enough to be the best part of the show. There's too much time spent on jokes and half the cast ends up never getting even that level of backstory. The relationship between Kanade and Kuzuru (Otonashi) doesn't really get the time it needs to make the very last scene effective. And I wouldn't be surprised if you had just completely forgotten about the plot with the shadow things, considering it only took one of those shallow characters and never actually went anywhere despite the huge hook of "the creator of Angel Player."

Rather than argue about your opinions, I will just say that yes, I do remember the whole series. Though I don't think I watched the OVA. Maybe you just need a heart transplant.

[Morph Bark]

The best gateway is films, bar none. Anime films make it easy to whet someone's appetite for the medium as a whole, simply because films are so low-commitment. You watch a complete story in an hour or two, and then you're done.

Since she can't read read, you'll of course want to go with a dubbed anime. With her distate for sexualized things and love of post-apocalyptic material, I take it she's more into serious drama rather than relatively light-hearted stuff? Then again, Star Trek can be pretty light-hearted, though at its core is still relatively serious.

With that, I'd recommend Ergo Proxy (http://myanimelist.net/anime/790/Ergo_Proxy?q=ergo%20proxy), Death Note (http://myanimelist.net/anime/1535/Death_Note?q=deaht%20note), Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) (http://myanimelist.net/anime/121/Fullmetal_Alchemist?q=fullmetal) (while I personally enjoyed Brotherhood more, it's a bit more sensitive to tropes and a shounen style later on), Cowboy Bebop (http://myanimelist.net/anime/1/Cowboy_Bebop?q=cowboy%20b) and Psycho-Pass (http://myanimelist.net/anime/13601/Psycho-Pass?q=psycho-pass). That last one actually got one of my housemates more interested in anime and he started watching a whole bunch, but he used to watch a handful years ago already. Baccano! (http://myanimelist.net/anime/2251/Baccano?q=baccano) might also be something, though it's generally not seen as a gateway anime due to its relative obscurity. It's short (12 episodes, iirc), with likeable characters, relatively dark but with light-hearted moments, and the dub is pretty good. It does jump between different stories a bunch though, so if either of you have trouble with shows that do that with a bunch of characters, the first two episodes can be a bit annoying. (The first episode is mainly to set the stage and frame the story, but serves very well to gauge interest in continuing on. Certainly shorter than a film!)


EDIT: I just realized I said films are the best gateway without suggesting any! Let's fix that.

The Girl Who Leapt Through Time (http://myanimelist.net/anime/2236/Toki_wo_Kakeru_Shoujo?q=the%20girl%20who%20leapt%2 0through%20time) is a great little time travel story with the main character being an ordinary schoolgirl (but acting and drawn more maturely than in most highschool anime).

Princess Mononoke (http://myanimelist.net/anime/164/Mononoke_Hime) is probably the most-suited out of the Ghibli films for your tastes. Most of the Ghibli films have the same sort of mystical, semi-eerie, Japanese fairytale vibe, with some exceptions, and a few don't really have a solid plot to hold the film together, being more a snapshot of life. Arrietty and the Borrowers (http://myanimelist.net/anime/7711/Karigurashi_no_Arrietty?q=arrietty) is amazing, and the most light-hearted of the suggestions I've made here.

Ghost in the Shell (http://myanimelist.net/anime/43/Ghost_in_the_Shell) is a classic sci-fi film, a cyberpunk thriller that people still make new stuff for. It has some non-sexualized nudity.

Finally, Sword of the Stranger (http://myanimelist.net/anime/2418/Stranger__Mukou_Hadan). Perhaps less gateway-y, this film is just amazing. If it were a live-action film in black and white, it would definitely be a Kurosawa classic. Characterization is simple, but very effective, the atmosphere is pulled off really well, the plot is relatively straight-forward with the dialogue and characters' appearance hinting at greater depth. A downside might be is that I don't recall any female characters in it.


A few people have stated that Puella Magi Madoka Magica is a good show. While it is, I wouldn't recommend it for a first anime. It's a deconstruction of the "magical girl" genre, and while it's enjoyable even without understanding the various tropes normally present in the genre, it becomes a lot more enjoyable if you do. It also gets fairly dark, and sometimes depressing, so if your roommate is not into that sort of stuff, I would save it for later.

For what it's worth, the only magical girl warrior show I've seen prior to PMMM was Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's, which is quite different from most magical girl warrior shows. I was somewhat aware of the general tropes involved with the genre, but only the very basic ones. I still enjoyed it greatly, but I think the main part of it that makes it not a good gateway is that it requires certain expectations to have the proper effect, and a complete newcomer to anime wouldn't have those expectations. (And if they did, they probably would get turned off after a few episodes, because its different from what they expected.)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Uh, Hulu only has dubs for the first four episodes. Which is too bad, because Steve Blum.

Also when did it get added to Hulu?!
Aw man, I totally missed that. It's been on Hulu for a while, but huh. Bummer about dubs.

[8BitNinja]

So last night, I checked out Cowboy Bebop

you should definitely watch that one

it's really good :smalltongue:

[Reddish Mage]

So last night, I checked out Cowboy Bebop

you should definitely watch that one

it's really good :smalltongue:

Are they still doing the reruns on Cartoon Network?

The thing about Cowboy Bebop is that it's very good, but isn't very "anime." The art style is a kind of classic style, but the setup, story structure, setting, tech, and music is very much it's own thing.

Compare to the likes of today's hyperpopular Shounen anime like the big three (Naruto/One Piece/FairyTail), the show lacks the spastic comedy, the emotionally immature protagonists, the j-pop music, the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix...while instead having distinctly Western (including what we call "Western") themes.

[8BitNinja]

Are they still doing the reruns on Cartoon Network?

The thing about Cowboy Bebop is that it's very good, but isn't very "anime." The art style is a kind of classic style, but the setup, story structure, setting, tech, and music is very much it's own thing.

Compare to the likes of today's hyperpopular Shounen anime like the big three (Naruto/One Piece/FairyTail), the show lacks the spastic comedy, the emotionally immature protagonists, the j-pop music, the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix...while instead having distinctly Western (including what we call "Western") themes.

No, I watched it on Funimation.

I liked it, even if it isn't very anime, I really liked the western themes.

I guess it might be because I watch mostly western TV shows. I don't know

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Are they still doing the reruns on Cartoon Network?

The thing about Cowboy Bebop is that it's very good, but isn't very "anime." The art style is a kind of classic style, but the setup, story structure, setting, tech, and music is very much it's own thing.

Compare to the likes of today's hyperpopular Shounen anime like the big three (Naruto/One Piece/FairyTail), the show lacks the spastic comedy, the emotionally immature protagonists, the j-pop music, the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix...while instead having distinctly Western (including what we call "Western") themes.
I dunno, I think that's kinda like claiming that big action blockbusters (like Michael Bay's stuff) and sitcoms are "American entertainment", and that anything else isn't really American entertainment. You're describing very particular traits of many mainstream anime, but it's worth noting many things that lack those traits. Everything Ghibli, for one. I guess Studio Ghibli isn't anime. :smalltongue:

[Raimun]

Hellsing Ultimate? At least if a bit of bloodshed is not a problem. With that I mean "a lot of bloodshed". That and many other things make it an unstereotypical anime series.

[8BitNinja]

http://i.imgur.com/TnQRX6v.gif One of the first things an anime fan must unlearn is the idea that the "Big Three" (a grouping that only exists in the west and never included Fairy Tail) represent or define 'anime'.

Wrong, The Soviet Union was one of them

Oh wait, wrong three

[Kato]

The thing about Cowboy Bebop is that it's very good, but isn't very "anime." The art style is a kind of classic style, but the setup, story structure, setting, tech, and music is very much it's own thing.

Compare to the likes of today's hyperpopular Shounen anime like the big three (Naruto/One Piece/FairyTail), the show lacks the spastic comedy, the emotionally immature protagonists, the j-pop music, the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix...while instead having distinctly Western (including what we call "Western") themes.

As was said, Shounen or even the "average" shounen is just one small piece of what anime is like. Yeah, Bebop is in style much closer to common Western cartoons, but that is what makes it a good gateway show. It helps you have a bit of Western and a bit of Japanese style.

(Also, Fairy Tail isn't one of the Big Three. Bleach is the third series)

[8BitNinja]

What's wrong with a more western anime?

[Reddish Mage]

As was said, Shounen or even the "average" shounen is just one small piece of what anime is like. Yeah, Bebop is in style much closer to common Western cartoons, but that is what makes it a good gateway show. It helps you have a bit of Western and a bit of Japanese style.

(Also, Fairy Tail isn't one of the Big Three. Bleach is the third series)
Ah right it's Bleach :-P. I must of blocked that one out


What's wrong with a more western anime?

Nothing's wrong with Westerns, or Noir or bluesy jazzy bebop or Hong Kong action or any variation of the art styles of Cowboy Bebop, it's a definite favorite of mine, but combining those very American parts with the art style favored by Watanabe, it's a bit like eating at a particularly good French Thai place as a "gateway" to learning to enjoy Chinese.

[8BitNinja]

Ah right it's Bleach :-P. I must of blocked that one out

I would watch bleach, except that the story is too...

:smallcool:

Basic

[Knaight]

Nothing's wrong with Westerns, or Noir or bluesy jazzy bebop or Hong Kong action or any variation of the art styles of Cowboy Bebop, it's a definite favorite of mine, but combining those very American parts with the art style favored by Watanabe, it's a bit like eating at a particularly good French Thai place as a "gateway" to learning to enjoy Chinese.
It was made in Japan, by Japanese people, in a style consistent with other Japanese works. That seems like a gateway to me, even if there's some big differences between it and the big three. The comparison made upthread to calling Hollywood action blockbusters and sitcoms the extent of American entertainment (or even film) is a good one. You could argue that any any American documentary isn't really American, or that independant films don't count, or that the films referred to as Oscar Bait aren't any good as an introduction, and that would be ridiculous. It's just as ridiculous here.


Compare to the likes of today's hyperpopular Shounen anime like the big three (Naruto/One Piece/FairyTail), the show lacks the spastic comedy, the emotionally immature protagonists, the j-pop music, the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix...while instead having distinctly Western (including what we call "Western") themes.
Similar arguments could be made with different Shounen tropes picked out for all sorts of things. To use an example: K-On lacks the central ideas of the characters versus the world, it lacks the constant expansion of scope and scale, it lacks the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix. It's not that hard to put western themes on it either, particularly as there's often a great deal of overlap and room for spin.

Is K-On somehow not anime? No. It's an icon with a number of imitators.

[KillingAScarab]

If you want a recommendation for a more "average" space opera anime, then try Outlaw Star. While the names are largely English, there's a large Chinese influence in it. Except, of course, the hot springs episode, but unlike in so many other anime, that hot springs episode is actually funny, has relevance to the plot and if I remember correctly it has less "fan service" than is found in other episodes. However, it is also a series with an improbable reason why the main female character has to be naked about half the time... I don't think I would recommend it for Wight's roommate.

That said, I think Cowboy Bebop is perfectly enjoyable and its more unique elements should be celebrated. Where else are you going to find a series with an episode dedicated to space truckers (http://cowboybebop.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Metal_Queen)??

http://45.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln0ljw905O1qfo270o1_500.gif

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Similar arguments could be made with different Shounen tropes picked out for all sorts of things. To use an example: K-On lacks the central ideas of the characters versus the world, it lacks the constant expansion of scope and scale, it lacks the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix. It's not that hard to put western themes on it either, particularly as there's often a great deal of overlap and room for spin.

Is K-On somehow not anime? No. It's an icon with a number of imitators.
Off the top of my head, you could also name Monster, Mushi-Shi, arguably Durarara!! and Baccano!, Shirobako, possibly even Death Note as other examples. Just as a few.

...that said, probably not great to get into a lengthy discussion on "how shounen must anime be to be anime" in the thread which is about recommending shows... (the terms "shoujo" and "seinen" are definitely good pointers to follow, though)

[Lethologica]

Okay, I deleted my earlier post because I decided I was being a little unfair, but characterizing Bebop:anime as French Thai:Chinese is massively unfair. Especially since the largest western elements we're talking about are: themes from Westerns, which is a Japanese tradition going back to Seven Samurai (and Westerns have borrowed from Japan in turn); and 'noir' in a science fiction show, which is cyberpunk, which was inspired and subsequently embraced by Japan.

This is like the 'Madoka Magica is such a uniquely deconstructive magical girl show!' sentiment. PMMM is deconstructive, but much of that sentiment comes from uncharitable assumptions about the genre rather than solid analysis. Similarly, Bebop is distinctive, but it's very much anime, and the sentiment to the contrary in this thread is demonstrably exaggerated due to uncharitable assumptions about the medium.

[KillingAScarab]

...that said, probably not great to get into a lengthy discussion on "how shounen must anime be to be anime" in the thread which is about recommending shows... (the terms "shoujo" and "seinen" are definitely good pointers to follow, though)This does remind me of a certain description of balance between fandoms from The Vision of Escaflowne: The Abridged Series (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL351914B9967572B5).

In the anime industry's quest for ratings the creators of shows with strong cross-demographic appeal must pander to two separate, yet equally important groups. The shounen fandom, who enjoy giant robots, short-skirted schoolgirls, and long drawn-out fights between muscle-bound supermen full of thinly veiled homoeroticism. And the shoujo fandom, who like their schoolgirls magical, their giant robot pilots bishounen, and their homoeroticism right out in the open. These are their stories.
*Law & Order knocks*



Okay, I deleted my earlier post because I decided I was being a little unfair, but characterizing Bebop:anime as French Thai:Chinese is massively unfair. Especially since the largest western elements we're talking about are: themes from Westerns, which is a Japanese tradition going back to Seven Samurai (and Westerns have borrowed from Japan in turn)...Seven Samurai was even remade as a western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnificent_Seven). The Magnificent Seven was pretty much where Charles "Harmonica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_in_the_West)" Bronson got his start in the movie portion of the genre.

[BiblioRook]

Seven Samurai was even remade as a western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnificent_Seven). The Magnificent Seven was pretty much where Charles "Harmonica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_in_the_West)" Bronson got his start in the movie portion of the genre.

When you mention a Seven Samurai remake honestly something else comes to mind (http://myanimelist.net/anime/166/Samurai_7). I mean, considering the context.

[Lethologica]

Seven Samurai was even remade as a western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnificent_Seven). The Magnificent Seven was pretty much where Charles "Harmonica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_in_the_West)" Bronson got his start in the movie portion of the genre.
Yep, that's one of the films I was thinking of. The other famous one I'm aware of is A Fistful of Dollars, from Yojimbo.

[wobner]

Hellsing Ultimate? At least if a bit of bloodshed is not a problem. With that I mean "a lot of bloodshed". That and many other things make it an unstereotypical anime series.

I looked up a bit of it just in case my memory was faulty, and

the police officer who becomes his side kick, is fairly graphically molested, threatened with rape, then spends the rest of the series running around in a skirt that's too short for walking, she is also overly endowed and as I recall, in desperate need of a sports bra, but its a been awhile.
all with a lot of talk about being a virgin,
which I remember had something to do with vampires.
and a whole lot of "yes master" in a really creepy, subservient, English accent(that always made me cringe)
oh yeah, and there is
the flash back where her mothers corpse is raped, while she watches
they cleaned it up for cartoon network a bit as I recall, removed the nudity, graphic rapes, but the molestation, panty shots, and the rest were still there. This is just want I can remember or stumbled on when I looked it up again.(and I missed a few episodes)

The bloodshed was definitely more dominant and rampant, and overshadowed the sexual stuff, but there was still quite a bit of there as I recall. Just to be warned.

[Reddish Mage]

If you want a recommendation for a more "average" space opera anime, then try Outlaw Star. While the names are largely English, there's a large Chinese influence in it. Except, of course, the hot springs episode, but unlike in so many other anime, that hot springs episode is actually funny, has relevance to the plot and if I remember correctly it has less "fan service" than is found in other episodes. However, it is also a series with an improbable reason why the main female character has to be naked about half the time... I don't think I would recommend it for Wight's roommate.

That would be a far more Shounen sort of Western...

And having to be naked to operate a starship seems like a perfectly reasonable limitation of futuristic technology.


That said, I think Cowboy Bebop is perfectly enjoyable and its more unique elements should be celebrated. Where else are you going to find a series with an episode dedicated to space truckers (http://cowboybebop.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Metal_Queen)??

Futurama. Of course I thought they lifted the space trucker bit directly.


http://youtu.be/zt0tVwP6MA4


It was made in Japan, by Japanese people, in a style consistent with other Japanese works. That seems like a gateway to me, even if there's some big differences between it and the big three. The comparison made upthread to calling Hollywood action blockbusters and sitcoms the extent of American entertainment (or even film) is a good one. You could argue that any any American documentary isn't really American, or that independant films don't count, or that the films referred to as Oscar Bait aren't any good as an introduction, and that would be ridiculous. It's just as ridiculous here.


Similar arguments could be made with different Shounen tropes picked out for all sorts of things. To use an example: K-On lacks the central ideas of the characters versus the world, it lacks the constant expansion of scope and scale, it lacks the fantasy/Japanese cultural mix. It's not that hard to put western themes on it either, particularly as there's often a great deal of overlap and room for spin.

Is K-On somehow not anime? No. It's an icon with a number of imitators.

K-On? I see it's a Seinen show about little girls being friends and doing stuff....that's like the definition of Seinen :smalltongue:

However now that you gave an example of an absurdly popular Japanese sub style of show. I admit I didn't think of the sheer number of Japanese anime with Noir/Western influence (Hong Kong action is pretty darn common). I do find the setting of everything to Jazz or something in that tradition (okay I think there's also bluegrass and country and...other) yeah highly unusual.

I like the Oscar bait analogy. If someone said they liked anime and cited Cowboy Bebop and Spirited Away do you picture: A. a guy at a convention or B. a New York Times film critic?

[Knaight]

I like the Oscar bait analogy. If someone said they liked anime and cited Cowboy Bebop and Spirited Away do you picture: A. a guy at a convention or B. a New York Times film critic?

A little of column A, a little of column B. I could also say C, the part of the anglophone fandom I'm willing to be at all associated with, but that's a different point entirely.

[8BitNinja]

Futurama. Of course I thought they lifted the space trucker bit directly.


http://youtu.be/zt0tVwP6MA4

Also, Futurama is actually about Space Truckers (or more of a delivery business), while Cowboy Bebop is actually about Bounty Hunters

[Lethologica]

Spirited Away is the most successful anime film of all time. Cowboy Bebop is as likely to mean 'watches Adult Swim' as anything else, since Cowboy Bebop is the longest-running anime on that block; it's frequently called out for its particular success in the US. So, yeah, A and B are both likely to cite those films.

It's utterly bizarre to call out those two titles as unpopular critics-only fare when titles like Kino no Tabi, Mushishi, Haibane Renmei, Tokyo Godfathers, Baccano!, and The Girl Who Leapt Through Time have been mentioned. Not that all those titles are obscure or unpopular, but compared to the two you mentioned? Jeezus. Actually, I don't even need that part. Saying the success of Spirited Away and Cowboy Bebop is more in the mind of the critic than the fan is ridiculous, period.

[8BitNinja]

Spirited Away is the most successful anime film of all time. Cowboy Bebop is as likely to mean 'watches Adult Swim' as anything else, since Cowboy Bebop is the longest-running anime on that block; it's frequently called out for its particular success in the US. So, yeah, A and B are both likely to cite those films.

It's utterly bizarre to call out those two titles as unpopular critics-only fare when titles like Kino no Tabi, Mushishi, Haibane Renmei, Tokyo Godfathers, Baccano!, and The Girl Who Leapt Through Time have been mentioned. Not that all those titles are obscure or unpopular, but compared to the two you mentioned? Jeezus. Actually, I don't even need that part. Saying the success of Spirited Away and Cowboy Bebop is more in the mind of the critic than the fan is ridiculous, period.

Didn't Disney make Spirited Away?

Don't you think that something about the western influence made both Cowboy Bebop and Spirited Away popular?

[Lethologica]

Didn't Disney make Spirited Away?
No, Studio Ghibli did. Disney has been involved in international distribution of Studio Ghibli films.


Don't you think that something about the western influence made both Cowboy Bebop and Spirited Away popular?
I'm not sure what western influences you're targeting for Spirited Away. I do think Cowboy Bebop's western influences helped make it popular, but I think the degree to which those western influences make the anime less 'anime' were highly exaggerated. And none of that changes the fact that both titles are popular among fans as well as critics.

[8BitNinja]

No, Studio Ghibli did. Disney has been involved in international distribution of Studio Ghibli films.


I'm not sure what western influences you're targeting for Spirited Away. I do think Cowboy Bebop's western influences helped make it popular, but I think the degree to which those western influences make the anime less 'anime' were highly exaggerated. And none of that changes the fact that both titles are popular among fans as well as critics.

I thought that Disney worked on Spirited Away, so that's what I was talking about

But apparently, they did not

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I thought that Disney worked on Spirited Away, so that's what I was talking about

But apparently, they did not
Yeah, they just handled distribution internationally, and they also lined up English dubs for the Ghibli films.

[Velaryon]

If you want something quicker, you could just watch Blood: The Last Vampire (2000). They both feature Saya, but Blood+ was a re-imagining.While Saya is certainly never sexualized in Blood: The Last Vampire, it features a dead prostitute at one point (which is, of course, naked).

The TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/BloodTheLastVampire) page notes that the manga was made "Hotter and Sexier."

There are also two African-American men who really aren't portrayed in a good light. One of them is just there to become a bloody mess.
Blood: The Last Vampire gets... well, bloody, and I imagine Blood+ does, too. If you don't mind something which is slow to develop, but also has considerably less blood I enjoyed Witch Hunter Robin. It uses the same sort of mixture of monster-of-the-week and conspiracy which I liked in The X-Files, but with more super powers on the protagonists' side.

That's the original adaptation, as opposed to the live-action film of the same name, right? Because I watched the live-action one and I was bored the whole way through.



I thought that Disney worked on Spirited Away, so that's what I was talking about

But apparently, they did not

Disney has the distribution rights for Spirited Away in the United States, but it was actually made by Studio Ghibli, a Japanese company. But Studio Ghibli can roughly be described as "Japanese Disney" in that a) they make family-friendly films that don't necessarily fit neatly into the various subgenres of anime, and b) they very clearly are significantly influenced by Disney in several ways.

In other words, it's a very understandable mistake. And since you are familiar with Spirited Away, I have to ask, did you like it? If so, do yourself a favor and try out some other Studio Ghibli films (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_Ghibli#Films), because many of them are among the best anime has to offer.

[Lethologica]

That's the original adaptation, as opposed to the live-action film of the same name, right? Because I watched the live-action one and I was bored the whole way through.
Correct. The live-action one was made in 2009.

[8BitNinja]

Disney has the distribution rights for Spirited Away in the United States, but it was actually made by Studio Ghibli, a Japanese company. But Studio Ghibli can roughly be described as "Japanese Disney" in that a) they make family-friendly films that don't necessarily fit neatly into the various subgenres of anime, and b) they very clearly are significantly influenced by Disney in several ways.

In other words, it's a very understandable mistake. And since you are familiar with Spirited Away, I have to ask, did you like it? If so, do yourself a favor and try out some other Studio Ghibli films (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_Ghibli#Films), because many of them are among the best anime has to offer.

It was okay, I'll check these guys out

[TeChameleon]

I think some of the confusion about how Cowboy Bebop fits into the anime scene is also the result of it being heavily influenced by a style of Japanese film that doesn't have a comfortable direct counterpart in Western Cinema- Yakuza Film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza_film)- rather than something more immediately recognizable to a Western audience. Once one has a better understanding of that genre, it's a bit clearer just how strongly rooted the series is in Japanese culture.

And yes, Studio Ghibli stuff is really quite good, especially the movies directed by Miyazaki (although some of his stuff can be slow-paced to the point of wavering between wondering when anything is going to happen and when the movie is going to end >.>).

[Lethologica]

I think some of the confusion about how Cowboy Bebop fits into the anime scene is also the result of it being heavily influenced by a style of Japanese film that doesn't have a comfortable direct counterpart in Western Cinema- Yakuza Film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza_film)- rather than something more immediately recognizable to a Western audience. Once one has a better understanding of that genre, it's a bit clearer just how strongly rooted the series is in Japanese culture.
Hn. It's not clear to me that Yakuza film doesn't have a comfortable direct counterpart in western cinema--namely, the mob film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_film). Plus, if the story were rooted in genres with no direct counterpart in western cinema, no one would say that the story was unusually influenced by the west, right?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Anime came into existence after WWII because of the Japanese being inspired by Disney and such things. How deep does the rabbit hole go?

[TeChameleon]

Hn. It's not clear to me that Yakuza film doesn't have a comfortable direct counterpart in western cinema--namely, the mob film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_film). Plus, if the story were rooted in genres with no direct counterpart in western cinema, no one would say that the story was unusually influenced by the west, right?

*headshake*

Answering your second assertion first, I can't really say I agree- if the original cultural context of a work is unfamiliar to a viewer, they will often impose their own view on it, based on the clues and tropes that they do recognize. I wouldn't argue that Cowboy Bebop hasn't been influenced by the West- it obviously has, maybe even a little beyond Japan's general, usually rather oddball, cultural assimilation of various bits of Western culture and thinking. But I would say that its core remains more Japanese than some would perhaps assume.

As for your first assertion, eh. The Yakuza Film and the Mob Film do share some parallels, but come from very different roots.

Mob Films came to be in the '30s, during the Great Depression. People were questioning if the system worked, and the Mob Film became popular because they showed a protagonist who, for a time, made it outside the system, and in fact started to create their own system- the gangster subculture. But they were ultimately undone by the system, offering a cynical look at things that nevertheless reassured that the American Dream was going to be okay in the end.

The Yakuza film, on the other hand, comes from a much longer history, and many of the originals were period pieces. The Yakuza were often billed as the successors to the way of Bushido, honorable heirs to the Samurai code, forced to work outside society and ending up as Robin-Hood-esque figures. Yakuza films also tend to have a strong undercurrent of a longing for redemption that usually isn't there in a Mob Film. I'll grant you that later Yakuza Films, focussing on the modern Yakuza, do tend to share more commonality with Mob Films, but they're also trending in a more documentary-ish direction, the whole 'based on a true story' bit.

... that was a lot of blather to pretty much say 'Cowboy Bebop is a fairly recognizable example of a Yakuza film, but calling it a Mob film is on shakier ground'.


Anime came into existence after WWII because of the Japanese being inspired by Disney and such things. How deep does the rabbit hole go?

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Eccl. 1:9, ca. somewhere between 950 and 400 B.C., depending on who you ask. Pretty deep, I'd say :smalltongue:

[8BitNinja]

Anime has been around since the Mesopotamians, thier clay tablets were the first manga, it was Naruto

[Reddish Mage]

Anime has been around since the Mesopotamians, thier clay tablets were the first manga, it was Naruto

The first clay tablets were accounting records as is most of the records recovered by archaeologists (archaeology is really all about the TWO certainties of life). The first anime did make its way over here and is Astro Boy. It's about a superhero robot and I find it seems more like a 1950's English cartoon then a today's anime.

The Japanese name "Mighty Atom" recalls the atom bomb and so it invites the connection that somehow nuclear warfare inspired anime.

Some say the impression the bombings left on the Japanese psyche and are related to a lot of anime themes...most obviously the anime trope of huge impressive explosions with mushroom clouds occurring (I find it interesting that protagonists are just as likely to cause them in a lot of Shounen).

[Lethologica]

*headshake*

Answering your second assertion first, I can't really say I agree- if the original cultural context of a work is unfamiliar to a viewer, they will often impose their own view on it, based on the clues and tropes that they do recognize. I wouldn't argue that Cowboy Bebop hasn't been influenced by the West- it obviously has, maybe even a little beyond Japan's general, usually rather oddball, cultural assimilation of various bits of Western culture and thinking. But I would say that its core remains more Japanese than some would perhaps assume.
And I would agree about Cowboy Bebop. But just because cultural context is unfamiliar to a viewer doesn't mean it doesn't have a direct western counterpart, and viewers are more likely to impose their view on it if such a counterpart exists. A western viewer might not be familiar with Shinto, but he isn't going to watch Natsume Yuujinchou and impose Christianity on it.


As for your first assertion, eh. The Yakuza Film and the Mob Film do share some parallels, but come from very different roots.
That's what counterparts from different cultures are. Maybe we're just talking past each other? What would you recognize as direct counterparts from different cultures?


... that was a lot of blather to pretty much say 'Cowboy Bebop is a fairly recognizable example of a Yakuza film, but calling it a Mob film is on shakier ground'.
Since no one called it a mob film or intimated that they would...:smallconfused:

[KillingAScarab]

The Japanese name "Mighty Atom" recalls the atom bomb and so it invites the connection that somehow nuclear warfare inspired anime.

Some say the impression the bombings left on the Japanese psyche and are related to a lot of anime themes...most obviously the anime trope of huge impressive explosions with mushroom clouds occurring (I find it interesting that protagonists are just as likely to cause them in a lot of Shounen).There's that, sure, but then there's the art people have made in order to deal directly with being one of the hibakusha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha). Keiji Nakazawa created the manga Barefoot Gen, which was entirely about life before and after the Hiroshima bombing. The 1983 film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_Gen_%281983_film%29) is a heart-wrenching, uplifting horror show. I try to watch it annually. It is a dramatization, though, so I try to follow it with some facts.

[TeChameleon]

And I would agree about Cowboy Bebop. But just because cultural context is unfamiliar to a viewer doesn't mean it doesn't have a direct western counterpart, and viewers are more likely to impose their view on it if such a counterpart exists. A western viewer might not be familiar with Shinto, but he isn't going to watch Natsume Yuujinchou and impose Christianity on it.
... I'll be honest, I had a hard time following that sentence. If I'm parsing it correctly...

... oog. Nope, sorry. I must be running a little slow, because I just can't puzzle it out right now.


That's what counterparts from different cultures are. Maybe we're just talking past each other? What would you recognize as direct counterparts from different cultures?
I do have a tendency to end up where we're talking past one another when I'm discussing something, so I apologize if that's happening here. I suspect that we might mostly be stuck on semantics- while the parallels between Yakuza and Mob films exist, I'd call them loose counterparts at best.


Since no one called it a mob film or intimated that they would...:smallconfused:
More responding to the idea that the Mob film is a direct parallel to the Yakuza film rather than claiming that anyone said that.

[RedMage125]

Speaking from experience, because I introduced my wife to anime, I did the following...

I kind of made her watch Tenchi Muyo when we were dating, it was something I like when I was younger.

But it wasn't until Trigun that she really started liking it. Once I knew I had a hook in, I went for gold:

Miyazaki movies. Started with My Neighbor Totoro, then Princess Mononoke, and Spirited Away. I eventually got her to watch all of them (except Porco Rosso, can't interest her in that one).

Once she was enjoying herself, I introduced Neon Genesis Evangelion (this was before the remakes were even a thing), to include the 2 movies. While that series is a complete mindf***, it made her appreciate how well-developed and twisted writers for anime can get.

So she got to see the light and fun, the action show with compelling characters, and the dark and twisted, yet deeply psychological.

I like old stuff, so I had picked up the complete run of Ranma 1/2. She enjoyed that. Then one of her coworkers let her borrow DeathNote, and SHE introduced ME to that.

At this point, her transition was complete, once she was getting excited about an anime she wanted to show me, I knew she was into it. Now, we're both a little old-fashioned and don't like new things, and her disgust at how almost all cartoons are CGI these days has made her appreciate anime all the more (since so much of it is still animated the old fashioned way).

So...OP, I cannot stress Miyazaki enough. If your roommate is a fan of Disney movies, especially, that's a great transition. Miyazaki movies are frequently kid-friendly, so non-sexual. Only mildly violent, but with AMAZING stories, compelling characters and generally happy endings.

Avoid The Cat Returns, though. Even I thought that was awful.

[8BitNinja]

Look up Cat Soup

Actually, don't watch that one, it will mess with your head

[hamlet]

No, Studio Ghibli did. Disney has been involved in international distribution of Studio Ghibli films.


I'm not sure what western influences you're targeting for Spirited Away. I do think Cowboy Bebop's western influences helped make it popular, but I think the degree to which those western influences make the anime less 'anime' were highly exaggerated. And none of that changes the fact that both titles are popular among fans as well as critics.

It probably revolves around the old adage of "if it's popular then it sucks" that I've noticed tends to permeate some levels of fandom in Anime circles. It's actually a fairly easy thing to notice if you're rather new to the field as the shows/movies you've probably heard about (having been more popular in the West) are generally looked down upon to a certain extent while these same folks laud things with titles that you've probably never heard of and, on at least one occasion, neither has Wikipedia.

It's the same kind of thing that folks do in RPG circles, too.

[8BitNinja]

It probably revolves around the old adage of "if it's popular then it sucks" that I've noticed tends to permeate some levels of fandom in Anime circles. It's actually a fairly easy thing to notice if you're rather new to the field as the shows/movies you've probably heard about (having been more popular in the West) are generally looked down upon to a certain extent while these same folks laud things with titles that you've probably never heard of and, on at least one occasion, neither has Wikipedia.

It's the same kind of thing that folks do in RPG circles, too.

Son't worry, the hipsters will dissipate when they become mainstream

[Knaight]

It probably revolves around the old adage of "if it's popular then it sucks" that I've noticed tends to permeate some levels of fandom in Anime circles. It's actually a fairly easy thing to notice if you're rather new to the field as the shows/movies you've probably heard about (having been more popular in the West) are generally looked down upon to a certain extent while these same folks laud things with titles that you've probably never heard of and, on at least one occasion, neither has Wikipedia.

In the context of English translated anime, it's worth observing that a large part of the adage is based on how much of what became popular became popular because network executives deliberately picked lowest common denominator action anime which dragged on for huge numbers of episodes. As a business decision this makes a lot of sense, but from a quality perspective it tends to select junk.

Meanwhile, Studio Ghibli has a well earned rock solid reputation, despite being hugely popular.

[hamlet]

In the context of English translated anime, it's worth observing that a large part of the adage is based on how much of what became popular became popular because network executives deliberately picked lowest common denominator action anime which dragged on for huge numbers of episodes. As a business decision this makes a lot of sense, but from a quality perspective it tends to select junk.

Meanwhile, Studio Ghibli has a well earned rock solid reputation, despite being hugely popular.

True enough, and the same goes for every other fandom, again.

But I do maintain that even crappy Anime has some charm to it and isn't something you dismiss out of hand as "populist" or whatever descriptor we're applying and calling it "not really anime."

I mean, even Naruto has a lot of redeeming qualities to it.:smallbiggrin:

And as for entry into the field, something not too challenging is actually somewhat called for. It's easier to understand Miyazaki, Cowboy Bebop, Bleach, etc, than it is to understand the nuance of something like PPMM or Princess Jellyfish (and yes, I'm using English titles because I'm lazy and don't particularly want to go look up the Japanese titles).

[Lethologica]

... I'll be honest, I had a hard time following that sentence. If I'm parsing it correctly...

... oog. Nope, sorry. I must be running a little slow, because I just can't puzzle it out right now.
Hm. Well, take samurai films. Western viewers probably see these and think, "Oh, cowboy films," and they're not too far off (and often for good reason). But if cowboy films didn't exist, what western paradigm would the western viewer impose on a samurai film? It'd be more difficult, right? So my suspicion is that western viewers are more likely to impose western paradigms when they're unfamiliar with the Japanese paradigm, but familiar with a closely related western one. When there isn't a closely related western paradigm, even if the western viewer doesn't recognize the cultural context of a given work, it's more distinctly 'foreign'.


It probably revolves around the old adage of "if it's popular then it sucks" that I've noticed tends to permeate some levels of fandom in Anime circles. It's actually a fairly easy thing to notice if you're rather new to the field as the shows/movies you've probably heard about (having been more popular in the West) are generally looked down upon to a certain extent while these same folks laud things with titles that you've probably never heard of and, on at least one occasion, neither has Wikipedia.

It's the same kind of thing that folks do in RPG circles, too.
While I have seen this to some extent, I'm not sure what the initial 'it' is referring to.


In the context of English translated anime, it's worth observing that a large part of the adage is based on how much of what became popular became popular because network executives deliberately picked lowest common denominator action anime which dragged on for huge numbers of episodes. As a business decision this makes a lot of sense, but from a quality perspective it tends to select junk.
This varies, too: contrast Toonami's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Toonami#Anime) broadcast history with Adult Swim's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Adult_Swim). It has a a lot to do with the age of the target audience.

[8BitNinja]

What I never got was the whole "sub-only master race" thing. I actually like the English voices better.

I seriously think that in most anime, female characters sound like they're 14, or even younger, especially when they look like they are in their mid 20's.

But then there is the artistic complaint that the characters who look 25 are actually 45

Help, I'm going into rage mode :smalleek:

[Reddish Mage]

What I never got was the whole "sub-only master race" thing. I actually like the English voices better.

I seriously think that in most anime, female characters sound like they're 14, or even younger, especially when they look like they are in their mid 20's.

But then there is the artistic complaint that the characters who look 25 are actually 45

Help, I'm going into rage mode :smalleek:

It's not anime, its like the late American (anime*) artist Monty Oum said on the subject of character age ambiguity, "Asians dude, Asians."


*well RWBY is on Crunchyroll and was number 1, also his one and only cartoon is being exported to Japan with the label that Monty was a "Japanese inspired" artist.

[Knaight]

And as for entry into the field, something not too challenging is actually somewhat called for. It's easier to understand Miyazaki, Cowboy Bebop, Bleach, etc, than it is to understand the nuance of something like PPMM or Princess Jellyfish (and yes, I'm using English titles because I'm lazy and don't particularly want to go look up the Japanese titles).

Something not particularly dependant on familiarity with other anime is called for, but I wouldn't say that there's any particular incentive towards simple stories. On top of that, there's the matter of how much time asked for. Bleach has hundreds of episodes, which is a fair bit. The pacing is also about what you'd expect for hundreds of episodes, and it's just likely to bore. Cowboy Bebop works for most things (including episode length), but runs into the issue of the roommate preference of avoiding sexualized characters, and the character of Faye. Miyazaki's work is pretty much an ideal starting point, but something like Princess Jellyfish, which is just over 10 episodes long, set in the modern day, and fits the roommate's criteria works just fine. Moribito is a similar case, where it's extremely well made, fits the criteria, and doesn't require anime specific knowledge.

Plus, it's worth observing that some of those "not too challenging" ones have anime specific tropes. Filler arcs and deliberately slowed pacing to stay behind a manga still being published is absolutely a thing, and while a lot of people used to anime are more used to it, it's something newer people have to put up with that is likely to drive them off.


But I do maintain that even crappy Anime has some charm to it and isn't something you dismiss out of hand as "populist" or whatever descriptor we're applying and calling it "not really anime."
No disagreement here.

[Lethologica]

What I never got was the whole "sub-only master race" thing. I actually like the English voices better.
A little bit history, a little bit ideology, a little bit access, mostly economy. Dubs are more expensive/difficult, so fewer anime get dubs, and the quality of dubs used to be very spotty. Not only did more studios make subs, but quality gaps could be covered with fansubs; meanwhile, Western studios often made hilariously/offensively bad dubs where none existed (see Macekre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Macekre) and 4Kids (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/FourKidsEntertainment)). The upshot is that, for a good while, the average sub was significantly better than the average dub. Now it's mostly personal preference when the dub exists, and subs otherwise. There's also an argument about preserving the original performance vs. understanding the vocal performance of the VAs, which is where ideology comes in.

[hamlet]

Something not particularly dependant on familiarity with other anime is called for, but I wouldn't say that there's any particular incentive towards simple stories. On top of that, there's the matter of how much time asked for. Bleach has hundreds of episodes, which is a fair bit. The pacing is also about what you'd expect for hundreds of episodes, and it's just likely to bore. Cowboy Bebop works for most things (including episode length), but runs into the issue of the roommate preference of avoiding sexualized characters, and the character of Faye. Miyazaki's work is pretty much an ideal starting point, but something like Princess Jellyfish, which is just over 10 episodes long, set in the modern day, and fits the roommate's criteria works just fine. Moribito is a similar case, where it's extremely well made, fits the criteria, and doesn't require anime specific knowledge.

Plus, it's worth observing that some of those "not too challenging" ones have anime specific tropes. Filler arcs and deliberately slowed pacing to stay behind a manga still being published is absolutely a thing, and while a lot of people used to anime are more used to it, it's something newer people have to put up with that is likely to drive them off.


No disagreement here.

I would also go ahead and recommend Oran Highschool Host Club (I think I spelled that wrong . . .). It has some anime specific stuff in it, but it's actually very funny and accessible. And fairly short all things considered.

Though, I'm slightly elitist about it and say the Fan Sub I first watched is just the best. It's a really good translation and it has a lot of good, short explanatory notes on screen for some of the jokes that most Americans wouldn't immediately get. Actually, probably one of my favorite shows.

Unfortunately, my Anime repertoire is fairly limited. I'm still learning. Next on my own block is, in no particular order, Trigun (because hey, funny), Cowboy Bebop the whole series (only saw an episode or three back in the old days), Gundam Mobile Suit (at the con we went to, they played one speech by the villain that absolutely and instantly sold me on the series), and Hellsing (because shush).

And Grave of Fireflies. I have to actually get through that without breaking down.

And also Sword Art Online (I want to read it first), Spice and Wolf, and Log Horizon (the novels).

I kind of jumped in head first after the wedding.:smalleek:

[Lethologica]

Anti-recommend Sword Art Online. That is all.

[8BitNinja]

DON'T WATCH AN ANIME LABELED BOKU :smalleek:

Jokes aside, I've heard that show about Titan Attacking is cool

[hamlet]

Anti-recommend Sword Art Online. That is all.

May I ask why?


8BitNinja: I read the first 14 volumes of Attack on Titan and seriously couldn't get into it. The hyper violence kind of turned me off, and that's saying something since I generally don't mind it too much. It was taken to Tarentino levels, actually.

That, and the plot such as it was bored me to tears. Too much setup of mysteries and not a lot of explaining them or advancing noticeably towards explanations. It needs to move at a faster pace than geologic.

Ironic, though, since I actually enjoyed much of Naruto and, like all good kids in the day, ran home from school every day to see if plot would actually happen on DBZ that day. No. No it did not.

[Knaight]

What I never got was the whole "sub-only master race" thing. I actually like the English voices better.

There are a number of problems with dubs, starting with issues like mouth movements versus sounds made, issues with how the audio and video have to map fairly well to the same time track and languages don't always take the same amount of time to say the same thing, the high prevalence of quality issues, etc. On top of that, for a lot of the people who prefer subs, reading is a completely subconscious ability, at least in languages in which they're fluent at the level likely to show up in most anime*.

*Highly technical fields and such, not so much.

[Winthur]

DON'T WATCH AN ANIME LABELED BOKU :smalleek:

Boku no Pico, on the other hand, is the best anime for introduction to a rather niche, but very rewarding, genre. Short and sweet. You can trust me, I'm an expert.

[Lethologica]

DON'T WATCH AN ANIME LABELED BOKU :smalleek:
I've heard Boku Dake ga Inai Machi is okay tho :smalltongue:


May I ask why?
Aincrad arc's premise and production values are wasted on its characters and plot--Kirito is simply boring, and about 6 episodes of genuinely decent story are interrupted by 9 episodes of disorganized mess. Then Alfheim tries to carry on without the weight of the initial premise, adds actively terrible characters, and is utter garbage. Gun Gale isn't as bad, but has all the tension of a NG+ run that didn't change the difficulty setting. Mother's Rosario...well, it doesn't focus on Kirito, so that's a plus.

I will say, though, that Sword Art Online Abridged is one of the best abridged series out there. Watch that instead, maybe.

[Hiro Protagonest]

May I ask why?

Ehehehe...

http://45.media.tumblr.com/6ae8c433717ed10ecd8cde9561873be4/tumblr_nm9m71ujeX1ta9suso1_500.gif

The first two episodes are alright. Not great, but I wouldn't expect that out of the first act. The premise is all but abandoned after Episode 2. Episode 3 is sort of in-between, but by Episode 4 it doesn't hesitate to jump off the ship. The next few episodes are basically just creating a small harem, then a boring supernatural mystery plot, then it shows a faint glimmer of hope as the secondary protagonist actually has a good time (even if the MC is still grumpy) before plummeting into this weirdly tropey fantasy plot with sexist undertones. And that's just the Aincrad arc.

The main character is supposed to be a hero and an anti-hero at the same time, and it doesn't work. His idea of giving good PR is to smacktalk while saying "the others aren't like me, they're idiots" and he gives that speech right when he acquires a black longcoat that flutters dramatically. And the only reason it doesn't work is because the minor antagonist is irrationally grasping at straws and Kirito just doesn't pay any attention to him for awhile. Everyone who dislikes him for being your average teenage outcast's example of a cool MC turns around on their views by the end of the episode. And all the girls who like him are in love with him, because that's clearly how it works.

He also slacks off and tells Asuna to relax when they're in the middle of battle plans, and then during their vacation together he doesn't smile when she's being playful.

Near the end, the villain talks about Asuna as if she's just an object, a trophy for Kirito. Despite his insanity, this sexism seems out of character and there instances of somewhat less obvious sexism in the writing itself.

Anyway, that's just the Aincrad arc. The ALO arc is widely considered worse. I actually liked the faction politics and messing around in the arc, but it sure as hell doesn't fit whenever you think about how he has a one-week time limit on the important thing. Suguha's cute, but suffers from being a satellite character in Kirito's harem just like all the other girls. And she's his cousin, raised in the same house. The new villain has even less respect for women than the last one, though he seems less insane and more of an unrepentant bastard. Kirito also gets two more women hanging off his arm for a while, though they don't join the harem.

I don't feel like writing about Gun Gale Online or Mother's Rosario.

[Ravian]

May I ask why?


I don't really get into popular-bashing, but Sword Art Online is really bad. The protagonist reads like a complete Mary Sue, the other characters are essentially just a harem of female characters meant to enhance how awesome the previously mentioned Mary Sue. The plot is contrived, at first appearing to be setting up an epic adventure before devolving into a series of surprisingly vignettes where for some reason everyone seems oddly unconcerned with the plot.

Subsequent series only continue this trend, mainly by adding additional women to the harem and having the protagonist continue being somehow the best at whichever MMO he is currently playing, regardless of how much experience he has actually had with the game.

If you want a show with the premise "Trapped in a Video Game" watch Log Horizon, especially since it actually seems to understand how MMO's work, rather than just using it as the premise for a mediocre fantasy action series. If you want good action, you can get that from dozens of other better shows.

[Ramza00]

DON'T WATCH AN ANIME LABELED BOKU :smalleek:

Jokes aside, I've heard that show about Titan Attacking is cool

It is a well done zombie apocalypse story, except the zombies range from 10 feet tall, to 50 feet tall, and one zombie is 200 feet tall. The zombies are a mixture of dumb zombies yet a capable threat, and abnormal zombies which possess some form of intelligence which are even scarier for they have all the advantages of the dumb zombies but with enough intelligence that they can seriously hunt humans. It is set in a post apocalyptic world and part of the story is figuring out why the world is post apocalyptic for hopefully by figuring out the past they can end the zombie apocalypse.

Yet in the end it is not anything special, it is still a zombie apocalypse story but it is suspenseful and well done enough that people look past its flaws.

What I am trying to say it is definitely not bad, it is the opposite of bad, it can be argued to be quite good, but it is definitely not great. I highly recommend people who are writers look into attack on titan and deconstruct it for they can learn many ways to improve their own literature by understanding what Attack on Titan does right.

Put another way you can easily guess what is going to happen from a story arc standpoint for each individual arc which affects dozens of characters, yet how it occurs can be surprising enough that it makes it hard for the reader to "go meta" and guess what is happening for they are engrossed enough for there are not individual small surprises that they can't predict.

-----

Put another way. Epic Fantasy is a whole lot more intense if you are not sure Legolas, or Gimili, or Aragorn is going to make it. Sure you bet Frodo is going to destroy the one ring, but you have personal stakes in all the side stories. All of this creates an atsmophere where peoples actions feel like consequences.

Put another way, this is a zombie apocalypse setting, but with enough of a "george rr martin feel" where a single character or two may die, but this death has consequences for it affects the rest of the team. Nothing will ever be the same again.

It effectively gets rid of the Star Trek redshirt problem and this creates an aura of suspense and investment into the characters


Put another way it is a serious B+ or A- work, but it is not some life changing anime that will make you forever say that was so awesome.

[8BitNinja]

It is a well done zombie apocalypse story, except the zombies range from 10 feet tall, to 50 feet tall, and one zombie is 200 feet tall. The zombies are a mixture of dumb zombies yet a capable threat, and abnormal zombies which possess some form of intelligence which are even scarier for they have all the advantages of the dumb zombies but with enough intelligence that they can seriously hunt humans. It is set in a post apocalyptic world and part of the story is figuring out why the world is post apocalyptic for hopefully by figuring out the past they can end the zombie apocalypse.

Yet in the end it is not anything special, it is still a zombie apocalypse story but it is suspenseful and well done enough that people look past its flaws.

What I am trying to say it is definitely not bad, it is the opposite of bad, it can be argued to be quite good, but it is definitely not great. I highly recommend people who are writers look into attack on titan and deconstruct it for they can learn many ways to improve their own literature by understanding what Attack on Titan does right.

Put another way you can easily guess what is going to happen from a story arc standpoint for each individual arc which affects dozens of characters, yet how it occurs can be surprising enough that it makes it hard for the reader to "go meta" and guess what is happening for they are engrossed enough for there are not individual small surprises that they can't predict.

-----

Put another way. Epic Fantasy is a whole lot more intense if you are not sure Legolas, or Gimili, or Aragorn is going to make it. Sure you bet Frodo is going to destroy the one ring, but you have personal stakes in all the side stories. All of this creates an atsmophere where peoples actions feel like consequences.

Put another way, this is a zombie apocalypse setting, but with enough of a "george rr martin feel" where a single character or two may die, but this death has consequences for it affects the rest of the team. Nothing will ever be the same again.

It effectively gets rid of the Star Trek redshirt problem and this creates an aura of suspense and investment into the characters


Put another way it is a serious B+ or A- work, but it is not some life changing anime that will make you forever say that was so awesome.

I have never seen it, but I heard that it was good

[Ramza00]

I have never seen it, but I heard that it was good

I would recommend it, but understand I am recommending it as a good fun time, but not something great and awesome that you must see.

(that said some people disagree with me, and Attack on Titan has some really hyped up dedicated fans)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Eh, IMO Attack on Titan is okay and overrated. Major pacing issues after the first five episodes, and it doesn't pick up for a while.

[Lethologica]

AoT has some great set pieces; its characters all start to blend together after a while, though. I'm comfortable with a B grade.

[8BitNinja]

AoT has some great set pieces; its characters all start to blend together after a while, though. I'm comfortable with a B grade.

Alright, it's good to know the truth,

hey AoT fans, your show is not the best show in the world

[Ravian]

Alright, it's good to know the truth,

hey AoT fans, your show is not the best show in the world

There is another show made by the same studio that's looking promising. Only one episode out so far, but it looks pretty nice so far.

It's called Kabanari of the Iron Fortress. In many ways it has a somewhat similar premise to Attack on Titan as essentially being a Zombie Apocalypse with a twist. But the rest of the world is pretty cool too, essentially being a sort of steampunk feudal Japan. Plus the protagonist already seems more interesting than the main guy in AoT, in that he's fairly intelligent, whereas Attack on Titan's protagonist was mainly just a guy who really hated titans.

It's a little too soon for me to recommend it in good faith, but I'm keeping an eye on it, particularly since this one is really doing it for me in the aesthetic department (something that Attack on Titan never quite managed for me.)

[Reddish Mage]

I seriously don't see why people are downplaying Attack on Titan's quality. If AoT doesn't qualify, what in your opinion, constitutes a "A" show, and how many shounen actually achieve that status?

I found AoT gripping from about 3-4 episodes in, after which it picks up and doesn't let go, although the grim/dark/death/betrayal/infighting themes get a bit repetitive sometime in season 2.

[Rodin]

I seriously don't see why people are downplaying Attack on Titan's quality. If AoT doesn't qualify, what in your opinion, constitutes a "A" show, and how many shounen actually achieve that status?

I found AoT gripping from about 3-4 episodes in, after which it picks up and doesn't let go, although the grim/dark/death/betrayal/infighting themes get a bit repetitive sometime in season 2.

From an anime (rather than manga) perspective, the fact that AoT currently ends after the first couple story arcs is a major strike against it. Quality-wise, it's too in love with gore for the sake of gore and too in love with the mysterious nature of the setting. I also find the entire premise hard to swallow - giants are attacking, so our only available solution in a Gunpowder Age show is...swords!

In terms of grade A shows, I really only have two that qualify - Hunter X Hunter (2011 version, although the 1999 one is still good) and Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (although the original is again, good). Both manage to have really good plots and really good fight sequences and really good characters/setting. All the other shounen shows I can think of fail in at least one of those categories.

AoT falls squarely in with the Naruto/Bleach/DBZ group - fun watching, but check the brain at the door.

[Lethologica]

Some A-grade in my personal opinion/experience:
Ping Pong the Animation
FLCL
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Baccano!

But if AoT is a B rating for me, it shares that tier with Psycho-Pass, GitS:SAC, Darker Than Black, Fate/Zero, Rurouni Kenshin, and Fullmetal Alchemist. At that point, I think rating between A and B is probably very much a matter of personal preference rather than significant objective quality jumps. My ratings are relative to anime I've seen as well as to my overall enjoyment/likeliness-to-recommend, so all my ratings are probably artificially low due to sampling bias.

[Ravian]

I seriously don't see why people are downplaying Attack on Titan's quality. If AoT doesn't qualify, what in your opinion, constitutes a "A" show, and how many shounen actually achieve that status?

I found AoT gripping from about 3-4 episodes in, after which it picks up and doesn't let go, although the grim/dark/death/betrayal/infighting themes get a bit repetitive sometime in season 2.

I admit I haven't seen the show. But I've personally not really gone for it because the setting always looked a little haphazard. I really get involved with shows that maintain a somewhat consistent aesthetic and world to everything, but while from what I certainly won't deny that some aspects of the AoT world look interesting, I always thought the setting looked like they started with something pre-modern European, but then the 3D manuevring gear looked like Steam-punk at a minimum, so it always seemed like something didn't quite click for me in the setting.

Again, I tend to prioritize things differently than a lot of people, but it matters for me that a show not only looks good, it's also designed good.

That's why I mentioned Kabanari, because the steampunk elements seemed to integrate themselves much more easily with their feudal Japanese setting than they did with Attack on Titan's more European setting.

[Knaight]

I seriously don't see why people are downplaying Attack on Titan's quality. If AoT doesn't qualify, what in your opinion, constitutes a "A" show, and how many shounen actually achieve that status?

I found AoT gripping from about 3-4 episodes in, after which it picks up and doesn't let go, although the grim/dark/death/betrayal/infighting themes get a bit repetitive sometime in season 2.

People are downplaying it because we didn't particularly like it. Personally, I'd put it at about a C-, and while shounen at A are extremely rare that's more indicative of shounen than anything. I'd put Moribito at A, although I'm honestly not sure who the target audience even is for that. Fullmetal Alchemist rates a solid B, and would be higher if it didn't kind of go off the rails at the end in both versions, both of which fit within the shounen umbrella. Princess Mononoke (which had it been in TV show form would probably have been called Shonen) rates an A.

With that said, not many shounen get the A status for me. I don't see that as a problem with the rankings so much as an indicator that the stuff aimed towards a younger audience tends to be weaker, which is no surprise.

[Zigwat]

I'm with Knaight on this one. AoT was a gigantic waste of my time. If I wanted to sit around and watch people commit suicide, I'd go to a Simpleplan concert. I sat through 5 episodes, not really liking the episodes, but expecting a build up to lead to something awesome and what do I get? Bull**** fighting with a payoff that was so underwhelming and full of suicidal filler, I swear I felt about 900 braincells die at once just from the shear effort to dignify even considering watching one more episode from then on. Then what happens? Oh, a flashback of a family getting killed and an attempted rape of a little girl, yeah I'll say no. Thank you.

Princess Mononoke is still Miyazaki's greatest achievement in my eyes, and I still hold it as one of my favorites.

I was a DBZ nut for a long time, and I rarely looked into other animes in my childhood, that was until Adult Swim brought up Cowboy Bebop! Now THIS became my alltime favorite! The dubbing was sleek and beautiful, the artwork was amazing, and the story was compelling, although the Jet episodes were underwhelming. Spike was the rare exception to the rule of main characters. He was the greatest character on that show, and I rarely break that rule. Though Edward was a very welcome relief from the seriousness.

So if you were looking for a gateway into other anime, Cowboy Bebop will leave you wanting more!

[8BitNinja]

Check out

Toy Story
Cory in the House
1980's Instructional Safety Videos
Seinfeld

Those are my favorites

(I have probably bored this joke into the core of the earth)

[DelphiSage]

Check out

Toy Story
Cory in the House
1980's Instructional Safety Videos
Seinfeld

Those are my favorites

(I have probably bored this joke into the core of the earth)

Do not make jokes.

[Lethologica]

Remember funny-once? Funny once, 8Bit. And since everyone had heard that joke before the first time you brought it up, more like funny-never. Exercise your creativity.

[TeChameleon]

Check out

Toy Story
Cory in the House
1980's Instructional Safety Videos
Seinfeld

Those are my favorites

(I have probably bored this joke into the core of the earth)

... what joke?

I... just... uh... what.

Anyhow, Hunter X Hunter is a pretty solid series- while it's actually one of my favourites, I'm not entirely sure I'd grade it as an 'A', although that might be because Togashi (the author of the manga) has a bad habit of buggering off for months or years at a time between chapters :smallannoyed: For context, the series started in 1998. It has 350 'weekly' chapters (compare Naruto, which started in 2000, and ended in February 2015 at chapter 700).

Er, anyhow, grumbling aside, good series, worth a watch.

Attack on Titan is, in my opinion, a reasonably solid B- the plot is, thus far, mostly an excuse for spectacular action sequences, which the series delivers rather well. Characterization is... not awful, there are some good moments, and the bits that aren't as good don't usually dip below 'kinda vanilla and forgettable'. Visual design is solid, and I didn't mind the steampunky bits- the reasoning behind the swords (which I honestly rather like the aesthetic of) makes enough sense that it didn't violate my suspension of disbelief.

Call it Evil Dead II rather than Dawn of the Dead.

[Razade]

I haven't seen anyone mention My Hero Academia yet, and it's anime just started. The One Piece Manga, I know it's not an anime, is probably the best place to start. It's included in the Big Three but frankly it's sold more copies than Naruto and Bleach put together. One Piece is actually the most popular manga in Japan, has been for a seriously long time, and has sold the most copies of any manga since they started counting that sort of thing.

[hamlet]

I don't really get into popular-bashing, but Sword Art Online is really bad. The protagonist reads like a complete Mary Sue, the other characters are essentially just a harem of female characters meant to enhance how awesome the previously mentioned Mary Sue. The plot is contrived, at first appearing to be setting up an epic adventure before devolving into a series of surprisingly vignettes where for some reason everyone seems oddly unconcerned with the plot.

Subsequent series only continue this trend, mainly by adding additional women to the harem and having the protagonist continue being somehow the best at whichever MMO he is currently playing, regardless of how much experience he has actually had with the game.

If you want a show with the premise "Trapped in a Video Game" watch Log Horizon, especially since it actually seems to understand how MMO's work, rather than just using it as the premise for a mediocre fantasy action series. If you want good action, you can get that from dozens of other better shows.

Fair enough. I have paid money for the first novel and so will read it. Who knows? Might be better and just a crappy adaptation. I also have a borrowed copy of the DVD's and will probably at least give it a try.

And I have the first book of Log Horizon anyway and will probably read that before long too.

Right after I finish Way of Kings (my goodness what a slog!) and Words of Radiance.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I seriously don't see why people are downplaying Attack on Titan's quality. If AoT doesn't qualify, what in your opinion, constitutes a "A" show, and how many shounen actually achieve that status?

I found AoT gripping from about 3-4 episodes in, after which it picks up and doesn't let go, although the grim/dark/death/betrayal/infighting themes get a bit repetitive sometime in season 2.
FMA: Brotherhood is probably the first shounen that gets A-tier ranking from me. (I've heard, from a friend whose anime opinions I definitely trust, that the 2011 Hunter x Hunter is similarly excellent.) I also have the JoJo saga at A-tier currently. Yona of the Dawn as well. I'd probably put Magi in A-tier. So...there's four shounen-style shows that I'd put out as an A show.

(This keeping in mind that I also have an S-tier classification for shows that stand above and beyond the rest. That's stuff like Gankutsuou, Monster, Shirobako, Baccano!, Madoka Magica, Steins;Gate, Cowboy Bebop, and Moribito.)

EDIT: actually, if OP is still following, Hulu has Gankutsuou (http://www.hulu.com/the-count-of-monte-cristo-gankutsuou) up in dub (I checked to make sure it's all the episodes). If "gothic Space France remake of The Count of Monte Cristo" sounds good to you, go for it.

[DelphiSage]

Why do you have all those shows at that level of respect? I could probably name a few that I'd prefer FMAB over.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Why do you have all those shows at that level of respect? I could probably name a few that I'd prefer FMAB over.
Tight, engaging, character-driven, and JoJo is on there in part for style. (The S-tier shows are just flat-out quality.)

That said, this is veering quickly into "General Anime" discussion...

[rooster707]

Check out

Toy Story
Cory in the House
1980's Instructional Safety Videos
Seinfeld

Those are my favorites

(I have probably bored this joke into the core of the earth)

Yes. Yes you have.

[Reddish Mage]

Tight, engaging, character-driven, and JoJo is on there in part for style. (The S-tier shows are just flat-out quality.)

That said, this is veering quickly into "General Anime" discussion...

I think talking about "A-level" anime is appropriate for a thread about the best gateway drug. Especially considering we are talking mostly about Attack on Titan and Fullmetal Alchemist. (Ok even JoJo...maybe).

I prefer the original Fullmetal Alchemist as a gateway. Better introduction and more coherent initial storyline. The beginning of brotherhood is in media res, has faster pacing, and favors a close-up camera that doesn't allow for the beginner to take in the Gothic architecture of Central City or the rustic feel of the brothers' hometown.

[DelphiSage]

The beginning of brotherhood is in media res, has faster pacing, and favors a close-up camera that doesn't allow for the beginner to take in the Gothic architecture of Central City or the rustic feel of the brothers' hometown.


.....................Huh?

[Flickerdart]

JoJo is an amazing series, but it's hardly gateway. I'd liken it to a trial by fire - it gets super anime, super quickly, and never lets go.

[8BitNinja]

I can't believe no one genuinely suggested a really, really weird anime.

The first ones I were to to watch were ones that, when I looked up the general synopsis, I knew it was either a joke or my friends were just being mean (probably the first). Keep in mind, this was before I was on the playground and I didn't know that much about anime, it was kind of a foreign concept to me (pun not intended).

[Lethologica]

I can't believe no one genuinely suggested a really, really weird anime.

The first ones I were to to watch were ones that, when I looked up the general synopsis, I knew it was either a joke or my friends were just being mean (probably the first). Keep in mind, this was before I was on the playground and I didn't know that much about anime, it was kind of a foreign concept to me (pun not intended).
Well, there's always Excel Saga, FLCL, Midori Days, Seikon no Qwaser, Sleeping With Hinako, Freezing, Speed Grapher, Daughters of Mnemosyne, and School Days. What could possibly go wrong?

[Leewei]

Princess Mononoke is still Miyazaki's greatest achievement in my eyes, and I still hold it as one of my favorites.
The English dub of this movie is exceptionally good -- but then, it was written by Neil Gaiman. :smallwink:

[8BitNinja]

Well, there's always Excel Saga, FLCL, Midori Days, Seikon no Qwaser, Sleeping With Hinako, Freezing, Speed Grapher, Daughters of Mnemosyne, and School Days. What could possibly go wrong?

I'm actually going to look these up sometime soon

*Mentally Preparing myself*

I'm scared

*Bracing*

[Lethologica]

The ones that are safe to look up are Excel Saga, FLCL, Sleeping with Hinako, Midori Days, and probably Speed Grapher--just weird, not scary.

Oh, we can add Revolutionary Girl Utena, too. That's much weirder than Speed Grapher.

[8BitNinja]

The ones that are safe to look up are Excel Saga, FLCL, Sleeping with Hinako, Midori Days, and probably Speed Grapher--just weird, not scary.

Oh, we can add Revolutionary Girl Utena, too. That's much weirder than Speed Grapher.

I'm not saying it's scary, I'm just not sure if my brain will be able to fully process it

Maybe my paladin immunity to fear will help

[Lethologica]

The paladin hasn't been born who's immune to squick, though. :smallamused:

[Leewei]

Say, 8bitNinja - has anyone suggested Gate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_(novel_series)) to you, yet? You liked Lodoss, and this has some similar elements in it.

[Red Fel]

Well, there's always Excel Saga, FLCL, Midori Days, Seikon no Qwaser, Sleeping With Hinako, Freezing, Speed Grapher, Daughters of Mnemosyne, and School Days. What could possibly go wrong?

To be fair, once you get past the initial premise of Midori no Hibi / Midori Days, the actual execution is fairly mundane. Yeah, the whole girl-as-hand thing is incredibly weird, but the story thereafter - delinquent trying to keep his reputation and hide his secret girlfriend while trying to help her and make her happy - isn't particularly bizarre.

Contrast that with, say, Excel Saga, which smashes the fourth wall early on and proceeds to serve banana paella on the broken bits as if they were plates. Why are we eating banana paella? Is that seriously your only question right now? That's just a mad explosion of crazy that doesn't stop.


Say, 8bitNinja - has anyone suggested Gate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_(novel_series)) to you, yet? You liked Lodoss, and this has some similar elements in it.

Ha! Gate as a gateway anime - I get it!

But yeah. Gate is actually a pretty great series. On the one hand, it has all of the wonderful elements of a fantasy kingdom at war, a la Lodoss; on the other, it answers the very reasonable question: "What if our modern world suddenly overlapped with a magical fantasy kingdom?" (Hint: The answer involves the fact that we have tanks and rocket launchers, and they do not.)

[8BitNinja]

Say, 8bitNinja - has anyone suggested Gate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_(novel_series)) to you, yet? You liked Lodoss, and this has some similar elements in it.

I'll check it out tonight, thanks

[Lethologica]

To be fair, once you get past the initial premise of Midori no Hibi / Midori Days, the actual execution is fairly mundane. Yeah, the whole girl-as-hand thing is incredibly weird, but the story thereafter - delinquent trying to keep his reputation and hide his secret girlfriend while trying to help her and make her happy - isn't particularly bizarre.

Contrast that with, say, Excel Saga, which smashes the fourth wall early on and proceeds to serve banana paella on the broken bits as if they were plates. Why are we eating banana paella? Is that seriously your only question right now? That's just a mad explosion of crazy that doesn't stop.

Sleeping With Hanako takes the cake for least weird story, though. :smalltongue:

[8BitNinja]

To be fair, once you get past the initial premise of Midori no Hibi / Midori Days, the actual execution is fairly mundane. Yeah, the whole girl-as-hand thing is incredibly weird, but the story thereafter - delinquent trying to keep his reputation and hide his secret girlfriend while trying to help her and make her happy - isn't particularly bizarre.

Contrast that with, say, Excel Saga, which smashes the fourth wall early on and proceeds to serve banana paella on the broken bits as if they were plates. Why are we eating banana paella? Is that seriously your only question right now? That's just a mad explosion of crazy that doesn't stop.

No wonder this stuff never leaves Japan, people get really weirded out by this

[Hiro Protagonest]

I prefer the original Fullmetal Alchemist as a gateway. Better introduction and more coherent initial storyline. The beginning of brotherhood is in media res, has faster pacing, and favors a close-up camera that doesn't allow for the beginner to take in the Gothic architecture of Central City or the rustic feel of the brothers' hometown.

I thought it was standard practice to skip The Freezing Alchemist.

As for the rest, that's a very minor flaw, if "faster pacing" is even a flaw at all (quite subjective, that one). All shows have flaws. Is nothing A-tier?


No wonder this stuff never leaves Japan, people get really weirded out by this

It's just as niche in Japan as outside of it. And speaking of outside of it, here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht#Theory_and_practice_of_theatre).

[Ravian]

Fair enough. I have paid money for the first novel and so will read it. Who knows? Might be better and just a crappy adaptation. I also have a borrowed copy of the DVD's and will probably at least give it a try.

And I have the first book of Log Horizon anyway and will probably read that before long too.

Right after I finish Way of Kings (my goodness what a slog!) and Words of Radiance.

I have heard that there are some problems that were only due to the adaptation, most of plot structure was apparently laid out a little better at first, but had to reduced somewhat to a series of less-coherent vignettes. That said, do be warned, Kiritou was always a mary sue.

Log Horizon is pretty decent though, it deconstructs the whole "living in an MMO" thing much better than SAO in my opinion, (mostly because in it the MMO world is actually real rather than just a simulation like in SAO, so they're able to get into exploring how a world that behaved like an MMO actually work rather than just treating it like a fantasy world where you can see your stat screen.


Say, 8bitNinja - has anyone suggested Gate to you, yet? You liked Lodoss, and this has some similar elements in it.

Am I the only one that really dislikes Gate? It's not as bad as SAO, but I really can't recommend it.

It starts with an interesting enough premise, fantasy world invades Japan, gets their ass handed to them by modern technology, Japan decides to invade them back through the portal they left. Interesting enough start, there's the potential to see how these two worlds deal with magic and technology, there's plenty of room for exploration, things could even get kind of serious considering that it's about war.

But then... nothing really happens afterwards. I never felt that the military characters are in any danger. In one of the early episodes they take down a dragon, which every fantasy characters regard as one of the most dangerous creatures of this world, with only a couple of no-named civilians as casualties. Almost every interaction with forces from the fantasy world can be summed up by them blowing them away without any problems.

Ok so it clearly isn't a show about huge dramatic stakes. Well maybe it can explore things involving the interactions between nations. In many ways the show seems to be developing a metaphor for a technologically superior nation trying to struggle with how it interacts with a third-world country. Even with magic, this fantasy world is essentially at medieval technology, maybe the show will be looking at the dangers of colonialism.

Except no. Apparently the Japanese military runs a occupied territory that looks downright idyllic. No one is dealing with any supply troubles, all the fantasy world refugees seem absolutely ecstatic about being ruled by the Japanese. I'm not entirely sure whether the Japanese military in the show does anything that can be described as morally ambiguous at all. There are reprehensible acts, but they're all being carried out by villains from the fantasy world, or other real-world nations trying to exploit the fantasy world, or less scrupulous members of the Japanese government whose main job seems to be to provide obstacles for the military to overcome.

The show professes to be about war, but it seems to be more about proclaiming how amazing the military is at everything. It honestly seems kind of creepily political, especially considering that the series' characters actually appear in recruitment posters for the Japanese military.

I also can't really say I find the characters really compelling. It's interesting that the main protagonist is a mature adult rather than some teenager, but he never really had much characterization besides "good person, part of the military, and otaku" Meanwhile the fantasy characters just seem like another harem of females to follow him around, with the particularly egregious example of a loli character that is turned on by violence. (Though for all I dislike the creepiness of that character, at the very least I can appreciate that she's apparently the only fantasy world character that is any kind of threat to anyone from the modern world.)


TLDR: Don't watch Gate, the military are Mary Sues and the show is only a few steps from propaganda.

[8BitNinja]

TLDR: Don't watch Gate, the military are Mary Sues and the show is only a few steps from propaganda.

Okay, but I'll watch the first episode anyway

[Ravian]

Okay, but I'll watch the first episode anyway

I can respect that, I think a person should generally watch at least one or two episodes before judging an anime (or any show), just a warning to know what you might be getting into.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think talking about "A-level" anime is appropriate for a thread about the best gateway drug. Especially considering we are talking mostly about Attack on Titan and Fullmetal Alchemist. (Ok even JoJo...maybe).

Well, I mean. Anime rankings overall are gonna be very different from gateway shows (despite the fact that I'd consider the vast majority of my S Tier to also be good gateway shows...which...hmm...that might not be a coincidence...).

[Knaight]

Well, I mean. Anime rankings overall are gonna be very different from gateway shows (despite the fact that I'd consider the vast majority of my S Tier to also be good gateway shows...which...hmm...that might not be a coincidence...).

On the other hand, there is that whole thing about putting your best foot forward. If you really dislike Moribito, odds are good you dislike huge swaths of something in it (fantasy as a whole, somewhat brighter stories as a whole, anime as a whole, whatever). If you really dislike Master of Martial Hearts, you have a pulse and at least trace quantities of standards.

[Zigwat]

Alright, so on top of Cowboy Bebop, which I will consider the ultimate gateway anime for obvious reasons, I will also go with Outlaw Star. It is definitely a stranger one, and not as relatable, but it has a sci-fi charm that will appeal to many. Then there is always Trigun! This one is also pretty strange, but the characters are just so likeable that, honestly, it ranks up there with the greats!

FLCL is not exactly an acquired taste, but if it is the first anime you watch, you may get a lot of wrong ideas about anime as a whole. So as a gateway, not so much, but if you were wanting a look into the weirder aspects of anime, this one is definitely the one for you because at 6 episodes, it's one that leaves you begging for more.

So, those first few I would consider S-Ranked Gateway Animes. FLCL would definitely be a close A-Rank.

[Kitten Champion]

Am I the only one that really dislikes Gate? It's not as bad as SAO, but I really can't recommend it.

No, I had the same reaction. I've only read the manga though. There are elements I like about it (the story-line where the protagonist goes off on his own to kill a dragon terrorizing the dark elves with modern munitions and military tactics I found particularly enjoyable} but the real-Earth politics behind it vexed me increasingly, and with nothing given to them to actually combat the Japanese it just made the Fantasy World so underwhelming a threat to the heroes that - combined with the portrayal of its leadership as feckless and unsubtle villains clueless of how in over their heads they were - it really felt like propaganda written to justify colonizing a third-rate Rome-inspired Westeros which just happens to have gothilolis and animal-eared people.

[8BitNinja]

I can respect that, I think a person should generally watch at least one or two episodes before judging an anime (or any show), just a warning to know what you might be getting into.

I understand, I'm going in

*dons helmet*

[Reddish Mage]

Hey guys, I just noted that the OP hasn't posted anything since page 1. So this thread can no longer be considered derailed since it has long outlived its original purpose.

That said we are still on the best gateways and...


Alright, so on top of Cowboy Bebop, which I will consider the ultimate gateway anime for obvious reasons, I will also go with Outlaw Star. It is definitely a stranger one, and not as relatable, but it has a sci-fi charm that will appeal to many. Then there is always Trigun! This one is also pretty strange, but the characters are just so likeable that, honestly, it ranks up there with the greats!

FLCL is not exactly an acquired taste, but if it is the first anime you watch, you may get a lot of wrong ideas about anime as a whole. So as a gateway, not so much, but if you were wanting a look into the weirder aspects of anime, this one is definitely the one for you because at 6 episodes, it's one that leaves you begging for more.

So, those first few I would consider S-Ranked Gateway Animes. FLCL would definitely be a close A-Rank.


I agree with you that FLCL isn't a gateway and I think you really have to have seen anime to appreciate the things they are doing with the absurd way they make use of aliens and robots and other anime tropes.

However what the heck with your list of S-rank gateway? Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, AND Trigun!!??

I mean I wouldn't put the latter two in Cowboy's Bebop league in terms of quality and although I would recommend both Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star for viewing it would be to different people for different reasons (and Outlaw Star was recommended to me as an anime by Netflix after watching Cowboy Bebop back in the day).

The only thing your list has in common is that they are all Westerns. Cowboy Bebop is seinen from its publishing history and audience (adult) the other two or shounen.

Outlaw star focuses more on the action and Trigun more on the comedy. Both are rather unremarkable in terms of plot and story. Cowboy Bebop applies experimental themes you will literally never see before or since. Also, I go back if I said Westerns are not good anime, but Westerns, even including all the Samurai anime by extension, are a small sub-genre of anime!

[Ravian]

No, I had the same reaction. I've only read the manga though. There are elements I like about it (the story-line where the protagonist goes off on his own to kill a dragon terrorizing the dark elves with modern munitions and military tactics I found particularly enjoyable} but the real-Earth politics behind it vexed me increasingly... and with nothing given to them to actually combat the Japanese it just made the the Fantasy World so underwhelming a threat to the heroes that - combined with the portrayal of its leadership as feckless and unsubtle villains clueless of how in over their heads they were - it really felt like propaganda written to justify colonizing a third-rate Rome-inspired Westeros which just happens to have gothilolis and animal-eared people.

Yeah that's the thing, Gate could have gone in two directions to make it decent. They could've taken a more nuanced approach to the imperialistic aspect and tried to make something that made us ask questions. Of they could have ignored the imperialism and instead tried to tell an exciting story pitting modern military tactics against powerful fantasy creatures and magic that could have actually posed a significant challenge.

Instead the anime is clearly supposed to be pro-military but it also seems to misunderstand the point of media set during war. Generally when people are watching shows about war, they're either in it for the excitement (a little simplistic, but I can understand just wanting to watch badass military tactics without everyone droning on about the nature of human conflict and how "war, war never changes") or people are into it because it is asking those interesting questions I mentioned. Gate is definitely ignoring the latter option by just dismissing the concerns people have about military occupations, but it also ignores the former by essentially showing the military as Mary Sues who mow through everything in their path rather than succeeding through military tactics.

I often compare it to another recent anime about war "Heroic Legend of Arslan."
Generally speaking, the show is about military tactics in a sort of NOT-Persian Empire versus the NOT-Byzantine Empire/Crusader States. Lots of clever stratagems an cunning maneuvers with some political maneuvering in between the big battles. But there's also the interesting bit that neither side is completely on the right side of things. At first, we seem to be with NOT-Persia because the Byzantine Crusaders are characterized as fanatics that want to kill everyone that doesn't follow their religion. Only problem is that the Persians make liberal use of slavery, displaying all the sorts of horrifying justifications for the imprisonment of human beings we're familiar with throughout history. Hell, even the villain of the series isn't shown to be totally in the wrong.

The main villain, Hermes (Silver Mask) is technically speaking the rightful heir to the throne, both because his father was the rightful king before Arslan's father deposed him and tried to murder Hermes, and because it's practically been spelled out that Arslan is illegitimate. (Probably should have seen that the small kid with pale skin and white hair looks nothing like the dude that looks the size of Ganondorf.) By all rights Hermes has been cheated out of his birthright by a horrible villain and could easily have been the hero of an anime from his perspective if it wasn't for the fact that he's willing to ally with foreign invaders and evil sorcerers, at the expense of the people, in his quest for revenge.

On that note, Heroic Legend of Arslan is definitely something I'll recommend. It doesn't rely on a ton of anime tropes, has a nice diverse cast of characters that feels like a D&D party sometimes (despite being a relatively low-magic setting), and there's plenty of exciting battle scenes. (Animation uses a little too much CGI for my liking, but I understand that reasonably it's how a studio can afford to animate these battles without bankrupting themselves.)

[Zigwat]

Hey guys, I just noted that the OP hasn't posted anything since page 1. So this thread can no longer be considered derailed since it has long outlived its original purpose.

That said we are still on the best gateways and...




I agree with you that FLCL isn't a gateway and I think you really have to have seen anime to appreciate the things they are doing with the absurd way they make use of aliens and robots and other anime tropes.

However what the heck with your list of S-rank gateway? Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, AND Trigun!!??

I mean I wouldn't put the latter two in Cowboy's Bebop league in terms of quality and although I would recommend both Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star for viewing it would be to different people for different reasons (and Outlaw Star was recommended to me as an anime by Netflix after watching Cowboy Bebop back in the day).

The only thing your list has in common is that they are all Westerns. Cowboy Bebop is seinen from its publishing history and audience (adult) the other two or shounen.

Outlaw star focuses more on the action and Trigun more on the comedy. Both are rather unremarkable in terms of plot and story. Cowboy Bebop applies experimental themes you will literally never see before or since. Also, I go back if I said Westerns are not good anime, but Westerns, even including all the Samurai anime by extension, are a small sub-genre of anime!

Nowhere did I say that they are as good as Cowboy Bebop. I simply said that they are S-Ranked Gateway Animes, as in Animes that you let newbies watch in order to get them into Anime. How do I know they work? My MOTHER watched two episodes of Trigun and she REALLY liked it. She loved how good-spirited it was, and she loved Vash, and she had never seen an anime in her life. Then my friend watched Outlaw Star and was absolutely hooked on anime from then on. He even told me that it "Opened up the door to anime." or something like that, it's simply a paraphrase. Still, the sentiment is there.

Soooooooo, yeah Cowboy Bebop is still King.

[Ravian]

Nowhere did I say that they are as good as Cowboy Bebop. I simply said that they are S-Ranked Gateway Animes, as in Animes that you let newbies watch in order to get them into Anime. How do I know they work? My MOTHER watched two episodes of Trigun and she REALLY liked it. She loved how good-spirited it was, and she loved Vash, and she had never seen an anime in her life. Then my friend watched Outlaw Star and was absolutely hooked on anime from then on. He even told me that it "Opened up the door to anime." or something like that, it's simply a paraphrase. Still, the sentiment is there.

Soooooooo, yeah Cowboy Bebop is still King.

Yeah, Cowboy Bebob is amazing, but Trigun is a big favorite of mine. The show had a cool setting (a big priority of mine. Hell one of the reasons I really liked the Trigun movie despite all its flaws was because the new animation meant we could see more of the cool setting details.), plus the character of Vash is great. Spike's undeniably the more badass of the two, and Vash's antics could grate on occasion, but he was still very amusing to watch, and his pacifism made for a very interesting examination of how far can you go with a pacifistic outlook and whether it is truly worth the suffering that may result from that pacifism. (It's one of the few media I've seen that really looks at that question so closely. Sure we all know that Batman probably could have saved hundreds more lives if he had killed the Joker already, but the comics rarely ever put Batman into a situation where killing or letting others die were the only options and didn't pull some way for him to get out of it through a third option he pulled out of his utility belt. (At least outside of Zack Snyder Films)

Full disclosure: I was crying right alongside Vash when he finally killed Legato.

As for Outlaw Star, I can't say that I've ever seen it, so I can't really give my opinion on the subject.

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah that's the thing, Gate could have gone in two directions to make it decent. They could've taken a more nuanced approach to the imperialistic aspect and tried to make something that made us ask questions. Of they could have ignored the imperialism and instead tried to tell an exciting story pitting modern military tactics against powerful fantasy creatures and magic that could have actually posed a significant challenge.


I thought while reading it that they should make it about a JDF squad that - mid-manoeuvres - finding itself in a anachronistic fantasy world in much the same fashion of Stargate SG-1, and be trapped there. They'd be unquestionably powerful, with all the advantages that we'd have militarily over an iron age setting, but their resources would still be limited, and the world would have magic, super-powered people, and monsters to test them as well.

They'd be entered into that world's politics the second their power became clear they'd need to make allies or decide who's worth fighting, deal with the dissonance between their anachronistic values and our contemporary ones along with strange forces like magic, pit their need to survive against their desire to hang on to their morality, and find some means of getting home.

Something like Ron Moore's Outlander meets Zipang.

[Reddish Mage]

You know the contrast between Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star is good for another reason I failed to mention. Watching Outlaw Star right after Cowboy Bebop and being told they are comparable was downright jarring.

After acclimating myself to "anime" as something full of a lot of adult Noir and Jazz music, hearing an opening of straight J-pop spastic action montage followed by a plot that could come straight out of a young-adult novel filled with super-action-star heroics and improbably skilled characters taking on a galactic level threat...it's was a giant leap, and it's one I think anyone who starts with Cowboy Bebop would be making when they go to their next anime.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I didn't like Trigun.

It wasn't terrible. It just changed so much that it left me not really feeling anything. And I already knew there was going to be mood whiplash from the strange early antics.

[8BitNinja]

I didn't like Trigun.

It wasn't terrible. It just changed so much that it left me not really feeling anything. And I already knew there was going to be mood whiplash from the strange early antics.

Didn't they recently make a Trigun movie?

[Ravian]

Didn't they recently make a Trigun movie?

2010, Trigun: Badlands Rumble. It's pretty decent and the animation is definitely smoother (though there's something that's always seemed "refreshing" about the older animation that Trigun had. It's sort of like the appeal of watching a classic old movie)

Only real complaints is that they could only get Johnny Yong Bosch (English voice of Vash the Stampede) out of the original dub cast, (most of the other actors actually weren't voice actors primarily, so it was a little much to ask for them to reprise their roles when they had moved on to other work.) so it's more than a little distracting to hear the characters with different voices, but luckily Vash takes the most prominent role anyway, so it's not too distracting. (I still missed Jeff Nimoy doing Wolfwood's voice though.)

I can't really judge it from a gateway perspective though, the story is essentially unconnected from most of the plot (lying somewhere in the middle of the show after they introduce Wolfwood.) but I have to say that the main appeal of the movie is as a final hurrah for the series itself. I'd mostly recommend checking out the series before the movie, trust me that the older animation looks more classic than dated, and I personally think it has a superb first episode.

It's also definitely on that spectrum of very "Western" anime. (No pun intended) The original Mangaka was actually incredibly influenced by Western Superhero comic books when he drew it (particularly spiderman, there's actually a couple of villains that look distinctly inspired by some of Spidey's foes.) and there's a lot of Western cultural elements that we Westerners take for granted but are fairly rare in manga and anime. For example, Christian allegory is often used, (primarily because the Mangaka is actually Christian) such as the stories of the Garden of Eden, and Cain and Abel. We see these sorts of allegories used all the time in Western story-telling, but in Anime you're far more likely to hear something from Buddhist of Shinto traditions.

(Not to mention English in canonically the primary language of the Trigun universe (there's even a joke involving a character being confronted by Japanese Kanji and not being able to make heads nor tails of how to read it.))

[Zalabim]

Daughters of Mnemosyne, . What could possibly go wrong?

Oh, man, Rin. I enjoyed the stories about villain's quests for immortality and the feeling of time passing and the advance of society and technology surrounding the immortal detective at the story's center. There's just so much blood, gore, sex, violence, mutilation, and outright squick that you'd have to ignore. Not a gateway anime.

[Kato]

But yeah. Gate is actually a pretty great series. On the one hand, it has all of the wonderful elements of a fantasy kingdom at war, a la Lodoss; on the other, it answers the very reasonable question: "What if our modern world suddenly overlapped with a magical fantasy kingdom?" (Hint: The answer involves the fact that we have tanks and rocket launchers, and they do not.)

I feel gate had a lot more promise than it delivered in the end. I still like it but... it could have been much better than it is/was. As many, many, many shows.

[HMS Invincible]

I feel gate had a lot more promise than it delivered in the end. I still like it but... it could have been much better than it is/was. As many, many, many shows.

The studio spent most of its time editing out the ugliest aspects of the manga.

[Hunter Noventa]

I feel gate had a lot more promise than it delivered in the end. I still like it but... it could have been much better than it is/was. As many, many, many shows.

That's pretty much how I feel about GATE. it was enjoyable, but when your villains are 'Steal Forty Cakes' levels of laughably and obviously evil it loses something.

It might belong in that 'Good Premise, Poor Execution' thread.

I think most of the anime I like that could be considered Gateway have already been mentioned.

[BWR]

Excel Saga, while hilarious, relies on a lot of metahumor. The first X episodes explicitly say they are parodies of specific manga/anime genres, and it shows. It will still probably be fun to the uninitiated but there will be a bunch of stuff that won't be picked up on.

Nthing Mushi-shi as a good place to start. The only real criticism I can level at it is that it suffers from some serious same-face, but it doesn't matter to the story.

[8BitNinja]

That's pretty much how I feel about GATE. it was enjoyable, but when your villains are 'Steal Forty Cakes' levels of laughably and obviously evil it loses something.

It might belong in that 'Good Premise, Poor Execution' thread.

I think most of the anime I like that could be considered Gateway have already been mentioned.


Excel Saga, while hilarious, relies on a lot of metahumor. The first X episodes explicitly say they are parodies of specific manga/anime genres, and it shows. It will still probably be fun to the uninitiated but there will be a bunch of stuff that won't be picked up on.

Nthing Mushi-shi as a good place to start. The only real criticism I can level at it is that it suffers from some serious same-face, but it doesn't matter to the story.

Since I was babysitting last night, I wasn't able to check these out, but I'll tell you guys what I think about them soon.

I read up on Excel Saga, and this was the face I had afterwards:
https://warosu.org/data/lit/img/0041/38/1380130008287.jpg

[BWR]

My first exposure to Excel Saga was the spin-off two-part Puni Puni Poemy, which had just about as much madness and wackiness in a much more condensed form. There's a lot of metahumor and oblique and direct references to other works there too but I watched it and enjoyed it knowing next to nothing about anime genres or clichés.

[8BitNinja]

My first exposure to Excel Saga was the spin-off two-part Puni Puni Poemy, which had just about as much madness and wackiness in a much more condensed form. There's a lot of metahumor and oblique and direct references to other works there too but I watched it and enjoyed it knowing next to nothing about anime genres or clichés.

That's good, because I have only watched 3 animes

Record of the Lodoss War (I don't know why, but I don't like calling it Record of Lodoss War, it just doesn't sound right)
Tokyo Ghoul
Cowboy Bebop (I'm still watching the series, not done yet)

I've also been suggested many on the playground, and my cousin (who introduced me to Tokyo Ghoul) recommended me Area 88

So I know nothing about anime

[HMS Invincible]

Removed due to miss quote

[Lethologica]

No tri gun? There's a nice self contained movie you can pick up the series with.
Trigun has been mentioned several times. I'm not sure you intended to post that as a reply to Kato, either.

[HMS Invincible]

Bah that's what I get for posting via phone. Uh, how about pscho pass, which is sorta like minority report, the anime plus super guns.

[Ravian]

That's good, because I have only watched 3 animes

Record of the Lodoss War (I don't know why, but I don't like calling it Record of Lodoss War, it just doesn't sound right)
Tokyo Ghoul
Cowboy Bebop (I'm still watching the series, not done yet)

I've also been suggested many on the playground, and my cousin (who introduced me to Tokyo Ghoul) recommended me Area 88

So I know nothing about anime

How'd you like Tokyo Ghoul, if you don't mind me asking? It's another one of those other shows that suffers from hype blowback, (Like Attack on Titan and Sword Art Online.) and there seem to be a good number of people who dislike how it departed from the manga, but I enjoyed it. It reminded me of Vampire: the Masquerade at times (if the only clan was a fusion of Gangrel and Tzimisce) and I really enjoyed the world they constructed even though there were a few inconsistencies.

Like how the hell does a population of ghouls that large live in Tokyo? There's over 100 named ghoul characters in the manga, most living in Tokyo, (granted some of these characters only exist in flashbacks, but that still doesn't put a huge dent in the population) to say nothing of all of the nameless ghouls that show up everywhere. Ghouls need to kill and eat a person about every 3 months. That means that at least 400 humans die every year to sustain the named ghoul population. Start factoring in all the background ghouls and its easily climbing into the thousands. Tokyo's murder rate would more than double from all those ghouls. Even if you account for what ghouls can get from suicides, only a few ghouls are that vegan.

At the very least, society probably should have adapted more from the fact that Ghouls easily account for more than half of all murders in the city. Definitely more than just treating them like urban legends. Vampires make it work because the entire population can theoretically survive without murdering a single individual if they live in a large enough city (they're not likely to avoid it completely, but it's still theoretically possible.) Meanwhile your average ghoul kills at least four people a year to survive, ignoring the problem of binge-eaters and the random violence they inflict while fighting with one another and investigators.

Still regardless of my ranting about population statistics, what'd you think?

[Reddish Mage]

Excel Saga, while hilarious, relies on a lot of metahumor. The first X episodes explicitly say they are parodies of specific manga/anime genres, and it shows. It will still probably be fun to the uninitiated but there will be a bunch of stuff that won't be picked up on.

I do not understand why Excel Saga comes up in every gateway anime thread or recommendation. It's the "superhero movie" of anime, the sort of parody only a diehard who saw every genre thing they make fun of can appreciate, and only then if they have a sophomoric sense of humor (and a strong stomach in this case, lot of vomit jokes).

[BWR]

I do not understand why Excel Saga comes up in every gateway anime thread or recommendation. It's the "superhero movie" of anime, the sort of parody only a diehard who saw every genre thing they make fun of can appreciate, and only then if they have a sophomoric sense of humor (and a strong stomach in this case, lot of vomit jokes).

Don't look at me, I didn't suggest it. I merely commented on it after someone else brought it up (probably as a joke or a wild card more than a serious suggestion, but still).

[8BitNinja]

How'd you like Tokyo Ghoul, if you don't mind me asking? It's another one of those other shows that suffers from hype blowback, (Like Attack on Titan and Sword Art Online.) and there seem to be a good number of people who dislike how it departed from the manga, but I enjoyed it. It reminded me of Vampire: the Masquerade at times (if the only clan was a fusion of Gangrel and Tzimisce) and I really enjoyed the world they constructed even though there were a few inconsistencies.

Like how the hell does a population of ghouls that large live in Tokyo? There's over 100 named ghoul characters in the manga, most living in Tokyo, (granted some of these characters only exist in flashbacks, but that still doesn't put a huge dent in the population) to say nothing of all of the nameless ghouls that show up everywhere. Ghouls need to kill and eat a person about every 3 months. That means that at least 400 humans die every year to sustain the named ghoul population. Start factoring in all the background ghouls and its easily climbing into the thousands. Tokyo's murder rate would more than double from all those ghouls. Even if you account for what ghouls can get from suicides, only a few ghouls are that vegan.

At the very least, society probably should have adapted more from the fact that Ghouls easily account for more than half of all murders in the city. Definitely more than just treating them like urban legends. Vampires make it work because the entire population can theoretically survive without murdering a single individual if they live in a large enough city (they're not likely to avoid it completely, but it's still theoretically possible.) Meanwhile your average ghoul kills at least four people a year to survive, ignoring the problem of binge-eaters and the random violence they inflict while fighting with one another and investigators.

Still regardless of my ranting about population statistics, what'd you think?

I loved it. I don't think it is over hyped, but I'm no hipster. Like you said, it definitely reminded me of Vampire: The Masquerade. Too bad they are taking a long time to make season 3, but maybe that's a good thing.

Concerning the Spoiler: That's why the CCG exists

[Lethologica]

Don't look at me, I didn't suggest it. I merely commented on it after someone else brought it up (probably as a joke or a wild card more than a serious suggestion, but still).
Yep, every anime I recommended in that post was a joke.

[Ravian]

I loved it. I don't think it is over hyped, but I'm no hipster. Like you said, it definitely reminded me of Vampire: The Masquerade. Too bad they are taking a long time to make season 3, but maybe that's a good thing.

Concerning the Spoiler: That's why the CCG exists

That is kind of the advantage of coming into things from outside the community. Hype can be awesome for a show, but there's nothing worse than going to a show expecting it to be amazing from the hype and then feeling it didn't live up to the expectations. It actually gets to a point where I'm sometimes afraid to approach a popular show before I get a judgement on it beyond hype. It's not entirely unfounded, considering that somehow Sword Art Online is still considered a very popular series despite its innumerable flaws, but there have been just as many where I realized that I had been being silly when I finally watched it. Luckily this is why I follow anime reviewers that I trust, as well as being part of an anime club that works as a great way to introduce myself to series based on the recommendations of fellow club members.

I understand the CCG normally limits the predations of ghouls and can often do a very effective job doing it (with most of the events of the anime being the result of a situation spiraling out of their control) but it still always struck me as odd that in a city where people must surely die from ghouls almost every night, and there existence is not treated like some sort of government controlled secret (people discuss ghoul attacks on the news in this world) society itself has not really adapted very much. Sure there are the CCG as a defense force, and a few other innovations against ghouls. (this is discussed more in the manga but it mostly revolves around how ghouls have weird blood, which means that high profile jobs often require blood tests, and there are a few experimental ghoul detectors being implemented in government offices.) but most of these seem more like modern innovations, while ghouls have apparently existed for centuries.

It makes you ask questions like: How did humans protect themselves before they could make quinque? It seems like a single ghoul could absolutely decimate a village of people lacking modern technology, and a pack could take on even heavily armed soldiers. And why hasn't society shifted with the fact that there have been cannibals stalking the streets of major cities for centuries? I'd think we'd have pretty heavy curfews, and possibly a social taboo about traveling without at least a couple other people with you (bring a chaperone in case your date is a ghoul :P)


One anime that's an interesting contrast in a show called Parasyte (I recommend it, though I should warn you that it has a lot of body horror. If David Cronenburg grosses you out, this may be something to avoid.) In it, the general premise is that a species of alien(?) creatures begins invading, infecting human hosts and using their bodies to appear innocuous so they can feed on other humans. There are obvious differences between the series, but both have the essential premise, "what would happen if there were monsters that looked like humans and wanted to eat other humans?"

Both series have the human characters respond to the threat being posed, Parasyte's law enforcement doesn't have nearly as much experience with the monsters as the CCG does with ghouls, so they have to spend some time figuring out what is happening before they can start focusing on anti-monster tactics. But where the CCG's approach to anti-ghoul strategy tends to limit itself to "find the best stick we can hit ghouls with, and hit them repeatably with that stick." Parasyte's law enforcement get creative.

There's an interesting part in Parasyte where the law enforcement discovers an incredibly simple way in which any human could reasonably figure out if someone is a monster or not. Unfortunately, they're somewhat limited by the desire not to reveal the creatures publicly and risking a panic, so they instead encourage society to incoporate the detection method into daily interactions. It's not fool-proof since it won't really help your average civilian that just discovered their date that they're alone with is a monster, but it's an interesting tactic that they managed to put into place fairly quickly all things considered.

It strikes me that the humans in Tokyo ghoul probably should have figured something out similar at that point. Maybe have sharing a bite to eat become a vital part of normal social interactions. Obviously ghouls have figured out how to keep it down temporarily, but imagine if sharing a stick of gum was considered a normal human greeting in the Tokyo Ghoul universe. It's got a strong sweet flavor, which ghouls really dislike, and it's not something that you can just swallow quickly without looking suspicious. Instead you're more or less expected to chew it for at least several minutes before eventually spitting it out. I'm honestly not sure how well ghouls would be able to stay hidden under something like that. It'd be like asking a human to chew on garbage for several minutes without barfing.

Despite all of that, I still enjoyed it. And frankly, the mental gymnastics to justify how vampires can live in such great numbers in the world of darkness yet remain undetected is probably even more difficult than justifying how Tokyo ghoul's universe has adapted so little to the threat posed by a new apex predator.

[8BitNinja]

I understand the CCG normally limits the predations of ghouls and can often do a very effective job doing it (with most of the events of the anime being the result of a situation spiraling out of their control) but it still always struck me as odd that in a city where people must surely die from ghouls almost every night, and there existence is not treated like some sort of government controlled secret (people discuss ghoul attacks on the news in this world) society itself has not really adapted very much. Sure there are the CCG as a defense force, and a few other innovations against ghouls. (this is discussed more in the manga but it mostly revolves around how ghouls have weird blood, which means that high profile jobs often require blood tests, and there are a few experimental ghoul detectors being implemented in government offices.) but most of these seem more like modern innovations, while ghouls have apparently existed for centuries.

It makes you ask questions like: How did humans protect themselves before they could make quinque? It seems like a single ghoul could absolutely decimate a village of people lacking modern technology, and a pack could take on even heavily armed soldiers. And why hasn't society shifted with the fact that there have been cannibals stalking the streets of major cities for centuries? I'd think we'd have pretty heavy curfews, and possibly a social taboo about traveling without at least a couple other people with you (bring a chaperone in case your date is a ghoul :P)


One anime that's an interesting contrast in a show called Parasyte (I recommend it, though I should warn you that it has a lot of body horror. If David Cronenburg grosses you out, this may be something to avoid.) In it, the general premise is that a species of alien(?) creatures begins invading, infecting human hosts and using their bodies to appear innocuous so they can feed on other humans. There are obvious differences between the series, but both have the essential premise, "what would happen if there were monsters that looked like humans and wanted to eat other humans?"

Both series have the human characters respond to the threat being posed, Parasyte's law enforcement doesn't have nearly as much experience with the monsters as the CCG does with ghouls, so they have to spend some time figuring out what is happening before they can start focusing on anti-monster tactics. But where the CCG's approach to anti-ghoul strategy tends to limit itself to "find the best stick we can hit ghouls with, and hit them repeatably with that stick." Parasyte's law enforcement get creative.

There's an interesting part in Parasyte where the law enforcement discovers an incredibly simple way in which any human could reasonably figure out if someone is a monster or not. Unfortunately, they're somewhat limited by the desire not to reveal the creatures publicly and risking a panic, so they instead encourage society to incoporate the detection method into daily interactions. It's not fool-proof since it won't really help your average civilian that just discovered their date that they're alone with is a monster, but it's an interesting tactic that they managed to put into place fairly quickly all things considered.

It strikes me that the humans in Tokyo ghoul probably should have figured something out similar at that point. Maybe have sharing a bite to eat become a vital part of normal social interactions. Obviously ghouls have figured out how to keep it down temporarily, but imagine if sharing a stick of gum was considered a normal human greeting in the Tokyo Ghoul universe. It's got a strong sweet flavor, which ghouls really dislike, and it's not something that you can just swallow quickly without looking suspicious. Instead you're more or less expected to chew it for at least several minutes before eventually spitting it out. I'm honestly not sure how well ghouls would be able to stay hidden under something like that. It'd be like asking a human to chew on garbage for several minutes without barfing.

Despite all of that, I still enjoyed it. And frankly, the mental gymnastics to justify how vampires can live in such great numbers in the world of darkness yet remain undetected is probably even more difficult than justifying how Tokyo ghoul's universe has adapted so little to the threat posed by a new apex predator.

You're right. Honestly, if I was in charge of ghoul containment, I would probably wonder what the past generations were doing and start an Inquisition-like ghoul hunt (without killing the non-ghouls of course, it seems to be pretty easy to avoid since you can do blood tests)

And about the whole thing with Kaneki's date, what was he thinking going into a Ghoul infested area without at least one other person, and why were there only a few doves stationed in the 11th Ward? Isn't that where the rise in ghoul attacks were? Anyway, Kaneki needed to listen to the old man's advice from Legend of Zelda, "It's dangerous to go alone"

[Reddish Mage]

On the Tokyo Ghoul discussion: you realize that this is hardly the only anime, movie, tv show, or novel to explore an alternative world where everything is like ours only they have some X thing that strange, magical, etc that should and would change the very makeup of society and history so it WOULD BE very different from ours, but does not.

Most crime dramas are illogical in exactly the same way. "In the Heat of the Night" was a TV drama about a small town with a murder every week, and Dexter was in a small locale that is conveniently full of the sickest sociopaths in history...

The are enormous number of stories based on societies that defy the laws of economics, politics, and sociology, to exist more or less like our with some X factor. That includes every single Superhero story. Did you really believe that a society with that much mega-scale crime and systemic corruption would be functioning much the same as ours (not to mention their attitudes towards crime which is far more liberal towards it, along with having much more escapable prisons). Or how about how the New York cops in many of these stories seem to be lacking SWAT teams and automatic weapons and bulletproof vests and are always about as trained and armed and dangerous as the traffic cops?

How about the joke that 9/11 is still a big deal in these universes despite the fact that supervillains have pulled off stunts like that every couple of weeks?

I'm just sticking to popular genres in this forum, you could criticize such giants of literature as 1984 or Brave New World on socio-economic nitpicks, but the point of these stories isn't to create a scientifically accurate model of a realistically possible future.

[Kitten Champion]

Reddish is right, particularly with regards to urban fantasy wherein monsters are supposed to be a thing. The "wouldn't people notice all the killing?" could be asked of something like Buffy or Supernatural as well, and they just kind of shrug it off as "people don't want to know" or some such.

You just have to accept it as part of the fantasy, because the alternative is the monsters you want for the story wouldn't really be all that threatening otherwise or you get something more complicated like Shakugan no Shana where the victims are erased entirely from existence and all fighting happens in quantum-something-or-rather which normal people can't experience.

[Ravian]

On the Tokyo Ghoul discussion: you realize that this is hardly the only anime, movie, tv show, or novel to explore an alternative world where everything is like ours only they have some X thing that strange, magical, etc that should and would change the very makeup of society and history so it WOULD BE very different from ours, but does not.

Most crime dramas are illogical in exactly the same way. "In the Heat of the Night" was a TV drama about a small town with a murder every week, and Dexter was in a small locale that is conveniently full of the sickest sociopaths in history...

The are enormous number of stories based on societies that defy the laws of economics, politics, and sociology, to exist more or less like our with some X factor. That includes every single Superhero story. Did you really believe that a society with that much mega-scale crime and systemic corruption would be functioning much the same as ours (not to mention their attitudes towards crime which is far more liberal towards it, along with having much more escapable prisons). Or how about how the New York cops in many of these stories seem to be lacking SWAT teams and automatic weapons and bulletproof vests and are always about as trained and armed and dangerous as the traffic cops?

How about the joke that 9/11 is still a big deal in these universes despite the fact that supervillains have pulled off stunts like that every couple of weeks?

I'm just sticking to popular genres in this forum, you could criticize such giants of literature as 1984 or Brave New World on socio-economic nitpicks, but the point of these stories isn't to create a scientifically accurate model of a realistically possible future.

I understand that I nitpick, and I really did enjoy the show despite all of the inconsistencies. I guess it's just because Tokyo Ghoul seems to frame ghouls as a problem that society has been dealing with forever and has even developed tools to fight back against them, yet society is largely identical despite all of that.

The crime dramas kind of get a pass in that crime is sort of an accepted part of the modern world, even serial killers. It only falls apart when you consider how high the crime rate must be in these places for the series to sustain itself.

Ghouls meanwhile are quite clearly a very different factor, more dangerous than a vampire, with a high enough population to have their own proto-society, and well-known enough that humans can try to fight back.

I guess it just kind of creates a bit of a disconnect when you see the heavily armed Doves and their extensive knowledge on how to combat ghouls, while all the other people seem to largely be clueless saps that barely seem to realize that ghouls exist despite the fact that ghoul experts talk about them on the news. The Doves seem incredibly well-adjusted to the universe they live in, but the other humans always seem to have just woken up in the wrong universe.


Anyway, this has gotten a little off-track. As far as other anime I might recommend, you might try out something like Black Lagoon. It's another series that avoids the use of anime tropes and is instead largely an animated action movie. It also kind of reminds me of Shadowrun despite being set in the modern world, no cyberpunk, no magic, just a small team of mercenaries that do whatever specialized work you need from them.

The characters even remind me of some of the archetypes in Shadowrun.
Rock (the hapless former salaryman suddenly thrust into the shadows) is the Face.
Revy (the gunslinger of the group.) is the Street Samurai (though she's practically a Physical Adept given how good she is with a gun.)
Dutch (the team leader and general stabilizing force of the team) does double-duty as driver, and backup combatant, while also serving as fixer.
and finally Benny (the resident hacker and general technology expert) is the Decker

It's a great show for those that are in the mood for something that feels like it was directed by John Woo.

[Knaight]

Most crime dramas are illogical in exactly the same way. "In the Heat of the Night" was a TV drama about a small town with a murder every week, and Dexter was in a small locale that is conveniently full of the sickest sociopaths in history.

Dexter was in Miami, which is a major city. It gets even bigger when you count in the overgrown suburbs around it with pretensions about being a real city of their own.

[Reddish Mage]

I think the fact that someone thinks ghouls eat people In a society otherwise like our own is more in-your-face incongruent than typical anime premises, while another thinks it's perfectly reasonable to depict Miami as a depot for sick twisted people tells me that BOTH individuals think that the world of typical TV and anime fare is a perfectly realistic facsimile of our world and society, instead of being worlds that are far darker, sicker, prone to outrageously dramatic crimes on a daily basis, powerful conspiracies, and in-your-face uniform corrupt organizations capable of keeping the lid on top of secrets that make "government covered up aliens once" sound like a yawn....that is just so, very, very wrong....

Either that or I REALLY don't know what's going on around Miami.

[Ravian]

I think the fact that someone thinks ghouls eat people In a society otherwise like our own is more in-your-face incongruent than typical anime premises, while another thinks it's perfectly reasonable to depict Miami as a depot for sick twisted people tells me that BOTH individuals think that the world of typical TV and anime fare is a perfectly realistic facsimile of our world and society, instead of being worlds that are far darker, sicker, prone to outrageously dramatic crimes on a daily basis, powerful conspiracies, and in-your-face uniform corrupt organizations capable of keeping the lid on top of secrets that make "government covered up aliens once" sound like a yawn....that is just so, very, very wrong....

Either that or I REALLY don't know what's going on around Miami.

As a person who was born in and spent a good chunk of my life in Miami, I won't say that I know for a fact that it's a haven for serial killers, but I will say that I wouldn't be surprised...
:smalltongue:

I kid, I kid, but what I generally say is that we accept that there are criminals in a crime show, even horrible murderers. Obviously once we examine things we can tell that there are far too many of these criminals around for it to be reasonable, but we suspend our disbelief because we know that a crime show that was more accurate would maybe have a few real crimes every season, with the rest just being paperwork.

Ghouls though. We know that ghouls aren't part of our regular world, like criminals are, so we look at the effect of this new element more closely than we do a crime serial.

Consider it like concocting a what-if scenario. What if the crime rate was double what it currently is and what if there were monsters in the shadows. The first one is a fairly realistic scenario that has plenty of disconcerting possibilities, but you really have to be a sociologist to accurately try to explain how the world would change because of such an occurrence. Meanwhile, while monsters existing is in the realm of fantasy, it is such a clear change from our world that even regular viewers can come up with plenty of ways society might change because of that.

It's easy to consider the implications of a dramatic change like ghouls, it's not easy to consider a sociological change like a doubling of the crime rate without specialized knowledge.

[8BitNinja]

As a person who was born in and spent a good chunk of my life in Miami, I won't say that I know for a fact that it's a haven for serial killers, but I will say that I wouldn't be surprised...
:smalltongue:

I kid, I kid, but what I generally say is that we accept that there are criminals in a crime show, even horrible murderers. Obviously once we examine things we can tell that there are far too many of these criminals around for it to be reasonable, but we suspend our disbelief because we know that a crime show that was more accurate would maybe have a few real crimes every season, with the rest just being paperwork.

Ghouls though. We know that ghouls aren't part of our regular world, like criminals are, so we look at the effect of this new element more closely than we do a crime serial.

Consider it like concocting a what-if scenario. What if the crime rate was double what it currently is and what if there were monsters in the shadows. The first one is a fairly realistic scenario that has plenty of disconcerting possibilities, but you really have to be a sociologist to accurately try to explain how the world would change because of such an occurrence. Meanwhile, while monsters existing is in the realm of fantasy, it is such a clear change from our world that even regular viewers can come up with plenty of ways society might change because of that.

It's easy to consider the implications of a dramatic change like ghouls, it's not easy to consider a sociological change like a doubling of the crime rate without specialized knowledge.

I agree with you.

Also Reddish, I do nitpick those things in superhero movies

[Knaight]

...while another thinks it's perfectly reasonable to depict Miami as a depot for sick twisted people...
I'm not entirely sure how you got that out of me contesting the description "small locale", but as long as we're on the topic: Miami is a big city, and the greater metropolitan area covers about six million people. On top of that, Miami has an unusually high violent crime rate, even by the standards of Florida, which is unusually bad at a state wide level. While I couldn't find metropolitan area data (at least without compiling it), the Miami murder rate is about 70 people per hundred thousand inhabitants. If that's representative of the metropolitan area, that works out to 4,200 murders annually. I suspect Miami is unusually high even by the metropolitan area standards, but even if we assume that the number above is double the actual rate, there's still 2,100 murders per year.

So yeah, that's a sufficiently high crime rate for the core concept of one person going after murderers at a rate of one per few weeks at highest (so, 25 per year tops) or so. It's not that it's some haven of crime, although what data I could find put it at about the 95th percentile for violent crime rates in the U.S, which has unusually high rates at a national level, so there's a case to be made that it is. Regardless of whether it is or not though, it's just a matter of there being so many people in the area that the actual numbers that fall out of even relatively modest crime rates add up to a lot. Those numbers actually came out higher than expected; I knew the area was big, but didn't know it was upwards of six million; I would have guessed that Miami was higher than average on crime rate, but I had no idea that it was anywhere near 95th percentile.

[8BitNinja]

So I watched the pilot of Excel Saga, and I was not prepared for it.

Honestly, I didn't like it. It was weird, surreal, and hard to really understand some jokes (for example, there was a wordplay using the Japanese language, but since I don't speak Japanese, and I was watching it dubbed, I didn't understand). I don't know if this was just in the English dub, but the protagonist shouted all of her lines. Also, the story is hard to follow.

This show genuinely freaked me out too. It was just that weird.

[Razade]

So I watched the pilot of Excel Saga, and I was not prepared for it.

Honestly, I didn't like it. It was weird, surreal, and hard to really understand some jokes (for example, there was a wordplay using the Japanese language, but since I don't speak Japanese, and I was watching it dubbed, I didn't understand). I don't know if this was just in the English dub, but the protagonist shouted all of her lines. Also, the story is hard to follow.

This show genuinely freaked me out too. It was just that weird.

You should probably not dip your toe anywhere near most anime/manga then. Excel Saga is about as weird as a mayo and peanut butter sandwich, compared to something like Oyasami Pun Pun which is like a Dutch Woman gargling pea soup while riding on five men formed into a human wheel over a Baked Alaska. The entire premise of Excel Saga is that it apes and makes fun of other manga/anime. If you're not familiar with the tropes they're making fun of then it's not something you'd enjoy.

[Kato]

This show genuinely freaked me out too. It was just that weird.
Don't worry, it was the same to me. I generally enjoy a lot of weird comedy, but Excel just didn't do anything for me.


You should probably not dip your toe anywhere near most anime/manga then. Excel Saga is about as weird as a mayo and peanut butter sandwich, compared to something like Oyasami Pun Pun which is like a Dutch Woman gargling pea soup while riding on five men formed into a human wheel over a Baked Alaska.

Not sure if you're exaggerating but this is totally wrong. Sure, there are a bunch of manga/anime that are weirder than Excel but most are far less surreal and can be enjoyed even if Excel isn't for you.

[Reddish Mage]

So I watched the pilot of Excel Saga, and I was not prepared for it.

This show genuinely freaked me out too. It was just that weird.

Hey, told you. Also on the weirdness scale Excel Saga is pretty weird, even by anime standards, sophomoric, even by parody standards, and spastic, even by a 5-year old with ADHD's standards.


I'm not entirely sure how you got that out of me contesting the description "small locale", but as long as we're on the topic: Miami is a big city, and the greater metropolitan area covers about six million people. On top of that, Miami has an unusually high violent crime rate, even by the standards of Florida, which is unusually bad at a state wide level. While I couldn't find metropolitan area data (at least without compiling it), the Miami murder rate is about 70 people per hundred thousand inhabitants. If that's representative of the metropolitan area, that works out to 4,200 murders annually. I suspect Miami is unusually high even by the metropolitan area standards, but even if we assume that the number above is double the actual rate, there's still 2,100 murders per year.

I think your facts are way off. I googled Chicago Murders in 2015 and:

The year-end crime statistics showed there were 468 murders in Chicago in 2015 compared with 416 the year before, a 12.5% increase, as well as 2,900 shootings—13% more than the year prior, and up 29% since 2013. Chicago had more homicides than any other city in 2015, according to the Chicago Tribune.Jan 2, 2016

So 468 is the top number of murders in any city in the USA in 2015 (a country with a lot more violent crime than Japan, which is actually known as a bit of a snoozer), and it's Chicago.

Miami-Dade country on the other hand had somewhere in the 80's every year from 2011-2014 according to county records on the gov website, and Miami itself had 80 some homicides in 2015 according to areavibes.com. It is, however, in the top cities in terms of violent crime according to multiple sources.

Perhaps you mean 70 murders per hundred-thousand per lifetime.

So, no, the number of active serial killers in Dexter is not even remotely realistic, nor is their level of activity.

[8BitNinja]

You should probably not dip your toe anywhere near most anime/manga then. Excel Saga is about as weird as a mayo and peanut butter sandwich, compared to something like Oyasami Pun Pun which is like a Dutch Woman gargling pea soup while riding on five men formed into a human wheel over a Baked Alaska. The entire premise of Excel Saga is that it apes and makes fun of other manga/anime. If you're not familiar with the tropes they're making fun of then it's not something you'd enjoy.

you guys warned me about the anime, I didn't listen, and paid the price

But I kind of sat in silence for a moment afterwards, thinking about what I just watched, and how to recover

[Ravian]

you guys warned me about the anime, I didn't listen, and paid the price

But I kind of sat in silence for a moment afterwards, thinking about what I just watched, and how to recover

Yeah, always remember that just because anime is more than just weird stuff, that doesn't mean there isn't still weird stuff.

Frankly, Excel Saga is one of those works that have become unfortunately common in anime, in that they seem to rely largely on making fun of other anime, without really adding anything else to the equation.

The trend kind of started with a series called the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, which was generally regarded as a rather clever series that centered around a cast of characters that were technically a host of anime cliches (for their time), and the show used that setup for satire, but it also centered around showing the characters demonstrating that they could be characters beyond their cliches, which made for a more interesting dynamic.

It was very popular, but a lot of series took it to heart for the wrong reasons, so now there's essentially a bit of a meta circle jerk of "satire" that thinks it's clever because it knows that cliches exist, but ends up just perpetuating the cliches rather than using them for comedy.

I call it a circle jerk because I'm pretty sure that at this point there are at least a few cliches that are only being sustained because some of the meta shows started "satirizing" them but didn't do it well enough so the other shows thought it was being played seriously and felt the need to satirize it in their own show, ad infinitem.

I'd generally avoid the lot until you get more familiar with the more tropey parts of anime, and even then I can only really recommend Haruhi Suzumiya after all of that.

As far as identifying the rest, I generally recommend you avoid any title that is ridiculously long, and may or may not be a question.

[Reddish Mage]

Okay guys, new thread purpose: What is the cure for acute Excel Saga exposure?

You need something fun, light, good and comprehensible to an American mindset. My goto classic comedy is Urusei Yatsura, but that might be too Japanese (also the first episode has boobies).

No, you need something more rooted in themes that you would already be familiar with, a parody that is comprehensible, that sticks to tropes and paradigms we already know and love.

So I suggest Slayers! Go nuts with an overpowered D&D sorceress in a world that displays the only logical conclusion of what happens when a bunch of misfits attain level 20.

If you really must get away from anything suggesting of Excel-Sage sorts of absurdity (and I admit most of Slayers comedy is physical and there's a lot of food puns) and still need a comic fix for the playground forum goer? Well now, there is always my old standby Rune Soldier. Rune Soldier is about the sole male wizard in a female D&D group who obviously doesn't get how that concept is supposed to work.

Need to get that bad taste out of your mouth? My answer is Louie Punch!

[Knaight]

So 468 is the top number of murders in any city in the USA in 2015 (a country with a lot more violent crime than Japan, which is actually known as a bit of a snoozer), and it's Chicago.

Japan is besides the point for Dexter, which is set in Miami. I also wasn't using 2015 data, but instead was looking at the 2000-2013 period. Looking further, it does appear that city total data was being reported as per 100,000, so those numbers are off by about a factor of 4. That still leaves plenty of crime in the Miami Metropolitan area. The show decides to aim too much at serial killers, and that's one of the many unrealistic things about it, but it's not core concept.

[Reddish Mage]

I think you it can safely be said that real violent crime is far rarer and has far heftier consequences, emotionally, structurally, socially, to both victim and perpetrator, than in TV.

TV drama necessarily compresses event timelines, glorifies individual heroes/villains, derogates the competence of typical cops/soldiers/prisons, makes the legal system a lot more dramatic, and removes pretty much all the paperwork.

Hell, now that I think about that last one, maybe it is a brighter world on TV afterall. :smalltongue:

[Lethologica]

To recover from anime weirdness? Honestly, most of the anime already recommended (not in jest) will do that. I'd add Natsume Yuujinchou, as well.

[Grinner]

Okay guys, new thread purpose: What is the cure for acute Excel Saga exposure?

Perhaps some good old-fashioned mindless violence would do the trick? If so, I'd recommend Hellsing or Devil May Cry. Avoid Hellsing Ultimate, 'cause of the Nazi vampires.

[tensai_oni]

I can't believe the day has come when people are talking about Excel Saga's qualities as a bad thing. Tastes are subjective and you're allowed to like or dislike various things for various reasons, but it's like sitting down to watch a classic Looney Tunes short but finding it too high energy and slapsticky for your liking.

[8BitNinja]

I can't believe the day has come when people are talking about Excel Saga's qualities as a bad thing. Tastes are subjective and you're allowed to like or dislike various things for various reasons, but it's like sitting down to watch a classic Looney Tunes short but finding it too high energy and slapsticky for your liking.

Dude, we are discussing our opinions. If you like Excel Saga, tell us what you like about it

[tensai_oni]

Okay then. Excel Saga is an oldschool parody, in that it takes elements from one genre and viciously mocks them by exaggerating them to an extreme. And it works. It works because:

1. Best parodies are funny even if you don't know the source material, such as Airplane! And the same is with Excel Saga - most of the time. There are two-three episodes I think where you need to be familiar with the source material: Japanese youth dramas, Gundam in general, and Fist of the North Star respectively - but the latter two are considered extremely entry level in Japan. The rest of episodes can be understood quite easily, and more importantly regardless of what the show is talking about, it's making actual jokes about it. As opposed to going "hey here's a thing we just referenced. That's the whole gag!"
2. It has very good comedic timing. Rather than meandering too much to get to the punchline or spending so much time on a joke that it overstays its welcome, the show fires them quickly. Even if a joke falls flat for you, another one will take its place soon enough so nothing is wasted.
3. Nothing is sacred for it. Excel Saga can be surprisingly deep in its mockery of various cliches, but it can also be vulgar and immature if it feels it makes a better joke. But fortunately the immature elements don't appear too often so it doesn't feel like the series relies on grossout or juvenile humor... until the final episode that is, whose over the top grossness is the joke in itself.
4. Last but not the least: it's just really funny. The very first sketch has Excel sent to assassinate the creator of the very own manga the anime is based on, and he sings while working that he's 3 days behind deadline and that mangaka are the scum of the Earth. Or how about the rich girl from the animal adventure episode trying to deal with a worm monster by shooting it, then throwing money at it, then going "nothing's working!" because that's how she dealt with all problems in her life? That's hilarious.

[Ravian]

Perhaps some good old-fashioned mindless violence would do the trick? If so, I'd recommend Hellsing or Devil May Cry. Avoid Hellsing Ultimate, 'cause of the Nazi vampires.

Bah, no taste. Nazi vampires are the best part. Much better than that incognito bastard.

[Razade]

Not sure if you're exaggerating but this is totally wrong. Sure, there are a bunch of manga/anime that are weirder than Excel but most are far less surreal and can be enjoyed even if Excel isn't for you.

No I'm not exaggerating. If you think Excel is one of the top surreal anime/manga out there then you haven't been looking very hard, no offense. Goodnight Punpun is a good place to start but even then it's not as weird as things can get. Really it's only the very last episode of Excel Saga that I'd even begin to call surreal. The first 25 are...pretty formulaic and parody driven. I guess the Pedro parts might be "surreal". Even then though. If you really are being serious, you need to find some more series. Paprika is more surreal than Excel Saga and it's a high profile movie.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No I'm not exaggerating. If you think Excel is one of the top surreal anime/manga out there then you haven't been looking very hard, no offense.

So what? Just because it's not the weirdest thing out there means it's the most grounded thing?

[Reddish Mage]

Paprika is more surreal than Excel Saga and it's a high profile movie.

Ooo...Paprika is really one for the Cowboy Bebop lover, and goes to show that surrealism can be mature and about serious issues, it can be a psychological horror, tell a tale about growing up, making choices, and how hard it can be to escape the past!

There's an anime that grips you, follows you around like a stalker the day after, and makes you think. Now I'm wondering if I can get it back into a local theater with a Tugg...

Warning, do not watch if scenes implying sexual assault disturb you because well...it gets pretty disturbing.

Overall I would put this in the S-ranked anime category along with Cowboy Bebop, not a gateway drug but something that the New York Times critic would enjoy (in fact I think it was a NYT review that convinced me to see the movie...).

[Lethologica]

Satoshi Kon was an S-tier director generally. RIP.

[Knaight]

I think you it can safely be said that real violent crime is far rarer and has far heftier consequences, emotionally, structurally, socially, to both victim and perpetrator, than in TV.

TV drama necessarily compresses event timelines, glorifies individual heroes/villains, derogates the competence of typical cops/soldiers/prisons, makes the legal system a lot more dramatic, and removes pretty much all the paperwork.

Hell, now that I think about that last one, maybe it is a brighter world on TV afterall. :smalltongue:

I'd agree about all of these except rarity, and even then it's more like the violent crime associated with a reasonably large area gets funneled towards a tiny, tiny cast. TV doesn't do a particularly good job with structural stuff, representing populations, etc., and so instead you see a still high amount of crime (usually made way more salacious), all funneled towards a comparatively tiny cast.

[Razade]

So what? Just because it's not the weirdest thing out there means it's the most grounded thing?

Because Kato was using Excel Saga as a benchmark for "Surreal Anime" when it's simply not. I'm not saying it isn't weird I'm saying that if it's a benchmark of "weird" in anime then you need to see more anime. I don't see how that was hard to catch.


Ooo...Paprika is really one for the Cowboy Bebop lover, and goes to show that surrealism can be mature and about serious issues, it can be a psychological horror, tell a tale about growing up, making choices, and how hard it can be to escape the past!

There's an anime that grips you, follows you around like a stalker the day after, and makes you think. Now I'm wondering if I can get it back into a local theater with a Tugg...

Warning, do not watch if scenes implying sexual assault disturb you because well...it gets pretty disturbing.

Overall I would put this in the S-ranked anime category along with Cowboy Bebop, not a gateway drug but something that the New York Times critic would enjoy (in fact I think it was a NYT review that convinced me to see the movie...).

Everyone should see Paprika and everyone should see Spirited Away I think honestly.


And a list of decent, and actual, surreal anime.

Paranoia Agent
Serial Experiment Lain
Penguindrum
Cat Soup
Mawaru Penguindrum
Mind Game
Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo (for a little humor)
Dead Leaves

I could go on really. But Cat Soup on that list is for sure one everyone should watch.

[8BitNinja]

No I'm not exaggerating. If you think Excel is one of the top surreal anime/manga out there then you haven't been looking very hard, no offense. Goodnight Punpun is a good place to start but even then it's not as weird as things can get. Really it's only the very last episode of Excel Saga that I'd even begin to call surreal. The first 25 are...pretty formulaic and parody driven. I guess the Pedro parts might be "surreal". Even then though. If you really are being serious, you need to find some more series. Paprika is more surreal than Excel Saga and it's a high profile movie.

Ever heard of Cat Soup?

[Razade]

Ever heard of Cat Soup?

I quite literally just ninja'd you with it so yes. I'm also surprised Azumanga Daioh hasn't been mentioned yet, especially for a more surreal series.

[Lethologica]

Because Kato was using Excel Saga as a benchmark for "Surreal Anime" when it's simply not. I'm not saying it isn't weird I'm saying that if it's a benchmark of "weird" in anime then you need to see more anime. I don't see how that was hard to catch.
I think there was a reaction specifically to your comment that if Excel Saga is too weird for someone then they shouldn't watch most anime/manga. That would imply that Excel Saga is atypically grounded for anime/manga.

[Razade]

I think there was a reaction specifically to your comment that if Excel Saga is too weird for someone then they shouldn't watch most anime/manga. That would imply that Excel Saga is atypically grounded for anime/manga.

I stand by it, Excel Saga is just a parody anime until the last episode. If it's too weird/zany than all the types of anime/manga they're aping is going to be even more extreme because Excel Saga dilutes the genre a bit to fit into their admittedly barebones plot. Take Invasion, Mother which is just one big jab at the Gundam series (down to a fight against a Puchuu Zeong) with some Harlock Saga thrown in. If that episode is too much than the 80+ episodes of Amuro pouting and numerous cries of "It's a Gundam!" followed by explosions is really going to be a problem for you because at the very least Excel Saga (the anime. Manga's totally different) cuts it with humor and off script stuff like Pedro and the Will.

[Grinner]

So here's the thing about Paprika, Serial Experiments Lain, Paranoia Agent, and maybe the other recommendations: they make sense. Sure they employ some weird imagery, but they also possess an actual plot. They're weird, but they're weird with a reason.

I haven't actually seen Excel Saga, but from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to revel in absurdity for the sake of absurdity.


Bah, no taste. Nazi vampires are the best part. Much better than that incognito bastard.

I liked Incognito. He actually challenged Alucard.

[HMS Invincible]

I think there was a reaction specifically to your comment that if Excel Saga is too weird for someone then they shouldn't watch most anime/manga. That would imply that Excel Saga is atypically grounded for anime/manga.

What about Utawareumono? I think this one is a spinoff from the previous one, and it's self contained. It's relatively new, and it's one of the few animes not set near a school.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/UtawarerumonoItsuwariNoKamen

[Razade]

I haven't actually seen Excel Saga, but from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to revel in absurdity for the sake of absurdity.


Excel Saga actually does have a plot and continuity. Even the anime and episodes have a sequential order. It's not like Mushishi where you can just start where ever. Even the 26th episode requires you know what's going on in the series.

[Lethologica]

I stand by it, Excel Saga is just a parody anime until the last episode. If it's too weird/zany than all the types of anime/manga they're aping is going to be even more extreme because Excel Saga dilutes the genre a bit to fit into their admittedly barebones plot. Take Invasion, Mother which is just one big jab at the Gundam series (down to a fight against a Puchuu Zeong) with some Harlock Saga thrown in. If that episode is too much than the 80+ episodes of Amuro pouting and numerous cries of "It's a Gundam!" followed by explosions is really going to be a problem for you because at the very least Excel Saga (the anime. Manga's totally different) cuts it with humor and off script stuff like Pedro and the Will.
80% of a genre in one episode might be more zany than 100% of it in 80 episodes, and 80% of dozens of genres in a series might be more zany than 100% of one. This logical construct doesn't hold up very well.

[Zalabim]

Need to get that bad taste out of your mouth? My answer is Louie Punch!

Louie Punch is probably the best answer, and also set in the same world as Lodoss War. I would watch it again, and it wouldn't even be against my will. There's also Those Who Hunt Elves, for a little more Earth-y tale. Warning: Elves will be stripped naked. It actually has a well-handled localization and dub.

[Razade]

80% of a genre in one episode might be more zany than 100% of it in 80 episodes, and 80% of dozens of genres in a series might be more zany than 100% of one. This logical construct doesn't hold up very well.

I'm mostly impressed that you managed to quantify it down to 80% of a genre along with 80% of all genres. You're right, a 26 minute episode can accuratly condense an 80 episode series and show off all "zaniness" it holds. What was I thinking.

[Lethologica]

I'm mostly impressed that you managed to quantify it down to 80% of a genre along with 80% of all genres. You're right, a 26 minute episode can accuratly condense an 80 episode series and show off all "zaniness" it holds. What was I thinking.
I'm just trying to put a number on your own "dilutes the genre a bit" assertion. If that's an inaccurate assessment, feel free to put your own number on it.

[Ravian]

I liked Incognito. He actually challenged Alucard.

I think challenging Alucard isn't really the point of Alucard, especially when it's by another undead.

To me the final fight between Alucard and Alexander in Ultimate had much more of an impact. Because ultimately Alucard is a monster that wants to die.

He more or less hates what he has become, but he also can't just kill himself because that would be an amission of weakness. So he has to find someone to kill him. But not just anything, it has to be a Man.

Alucard respects humans, in a weird way. He has a specific qualification of men though. They have to be strong, and they can't lose their humanity in order to achieve that strength. All the people he butchers through as collateral damage are too weak, regardless of how very human they are. Alexander, for all of his weirder powers, is still very much human, and so Alucard considers him a worthy rival, even if ultimately he is more powerful than Alexander. Meanwhile, all the monsters he faces, regardless of how strong, are just more monsters, barely worthy of anything. Police Girl is something of an exception, but that's because he hates giving up life more than giving up humanity.

This is also part of the reason why he respected characters like Sir Integra and Walter (before his betrayal.) Because they were both strong and humans. Integra not only is the descendant of the one human to best him in battle (The Original Van Hellsing) but she is strong enough to lead the Hellsing Organization against all manner of horrors, and even strong enough to use Alucard for her goals. Even though Alucard is bound to serve Integra, I'm not entirely convinced he wouldn't keep serving her without the bonds, simply because he eventually grows to respect her strength. Walter was similarly regarded as strong, one of the few humans strong enough to fight by his side. That's also why he was so disappointed when Walter decided to sacrifice his humanity out of his fear of advancing age.

That's what makes the final fight with Alexander in Hellsing Ultimate, oddly enough, kind of heart-breaking for Alucard as a character, because despite the fact that Alucard was willing to give him a fair fight, Alexander decides that he has to get as much power as possible to destroy a monster like Alucard, and so sacrifices his humanity to use the wood of the first cross. And in that moment, Alucard realizes that he has lost the worthiest foe he has come across in a long time, and thus has no choice but to crush it like just another monster.

Meanwhile, for all the power Incognito has, even if it's enough to challenge Alucard himself, he's just another monster. There's no satisfaction in fighting him, he's just exerting energy against an undead monster because he doesn't think it has a right to kill him.

TL:DR
The best opponent for Alucard isn't just some undead, regardless of how strong it is. The ideal opponent for Alucard is a human being.

[Rodin]

I just want to chime in as someone who watches a lot of anime and still found Excel Saga to have too weird a sense of humor for me. It is far weirder than 90% of anime that I've seen, and using it as a baseline to say whether someone will like anime seems pretty bizarre to me. It's like someone watching Naked Gun and not enjoying it, and as a response you declare that American comedy isn't for them. Yes, there's much weirder stuff out there, but it's a far distance from the standard level of weirdness in the genre.

[Knaight]

I just want to chime in as someone who watches a lot of anime and still found Excel Saga to have too weird a sense of humor for me. It is far weirder than 90% of anime that I've seen, and using it as a baseline to say whether someone will like anime seems pretty bizarre to me. It's like someone watching Naked Gun and not enjoying it, and as a response you declare that American comedy isn't for them. Yes, there's much weirder stuff out there, but it's a far distance from the standard level of weirdness in the genre.

I'd also say that in both cases, while the weirdness well gets extremely deep it also gets extremely narrow. Excel Saga and Naked Gun are both deep enough to be in the narrow section that contains a minority of work, while still being way closer to normal than they are to the weirdness levels seen in the things that go way into bizarre weirdness.

I'd also put myself down as someone who likes a fair amount of anime (though I will admit to being picky about quality), and who considers Excel Saga entirely too bizarre and pointless to enjoy.

[8BitNinja]

I think there was a reaction specifically to your comment that if Excel Saga is too weird for someone then they shouldn't watch most anime/manga. That would imply that Excel Saga is atypically grounded for anime/manga.

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case (and I'm sure that's the point you are trying to make)

From what little anime I've seen, a lot of it seems pretty normal

[Reddish Mage]

Louie Punch is probably the best answer, and also set in the same world as Lodoss War. I would watch it again, and it wouldn't even be against my will. There's also Those Who Hunt Elves, for a little more Earth-y tale. Warning: Elves will be stripped naked. It actually has a well-handled localization and dub.

Eh, I found Those Who Hunt Elves to be boring. Also the only way to know Rune Soldier is in the world if the Lodoss War is hear it. I cannot think of anything at all that indicates it is the same world or even suggests it is the same magic system!

[8BitNinja]

Louie Punch is probably the best answer, and also set in the same world as Lodoss War. I would watch it again, and it wouldn't even be against my will.

The Lodoss universe is larger than just Record of the Lodoss War?

So I checked...

Now I know that Pokemon is in the same universe, I checked the voice actors on IMDB, and the voice actor for Deedlit is Lisa Ortiz. For those who don't know, Lisa Ortiz voiced Sabrina in the Pokemon anime.

Crossover confirmed

[HMS Invincible]

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case (and I'm sure that's the point you are trying to make)

From what little anime I've seen, a lot of it seems pretty normal

After you exclude school based anime, and long running anime, there's only a couple of shows left which either break new ground, or mine niche themes. A historical base, maybe mecha, maybe horror, etc etc. Out at the edge of the bell curve, you find some gems.

[8BitNinja]

After you exclude school based anime.

From what I heard, school based anime can get really weird. I'm pretty sure the writers never even went to high school, because if they did, the entire thing would be about sitting in class listening to a teacher.

It would be an educational anime

[Lethologica]

After you exclude crime shows, and long running sitcoms, there's only a couple of shows left which either break new ground, or mine niche themes. A historical base, maybe space opera, maybe horror, etc etc. Out at the edge of the bell curve, you find some gems.
Sorry, I think Red Fel's find-and-replace tool has a mind of its own. I thought giving one's abominable creations free will was more of a CE thing.

[Red Fel]

Sorry, I think Red Fel's find-and-replace tool has a mind of its own. I thought giving one's abominable creations free will was more of a CE thing.

https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/8/8b/Just_according_to_keikaku.jpg/400px-Just_according_to_keikaku.jpg

[8BitNinja]

Sorry, I think Red Fel's find-and-replace tool has a mind of its own. I thought giving one's abominable creations free will was more of a CE thing.

I think NE can do that too

[Razade]

I just want to chime in as someone who watches a lot of anime and still found Excel Saga to have too weird a sense of humor for me. It is far weirder than 90% of anime that I've seen, and using it as a baseline to say whether someone will like anime seems pretty bizarre to me. It's like someone watching Naked Gun and not enjoying it, and as a response you declare that American comedy isn't for them. Yes, there's much weirder stuff out there, but it's a far distance from the standard level of weirdness in the genre.


I'd also say that in both cases, while the weirdness well gets extremely deep it also gets extremely narrow. Excel Saga and Naked Gun are both deep enough to be in the narrow section that contains a minority of work, while still being way closer to normal than they are to the weirdness levels seen in the things that go way into bizarre weirdness.

I'd also put myself down as someone who likes a fair amount of anime (though I will admit to being picky about quality), and who considers Excel Saga entirely too bizarre and pointless to enjoy.

I'm learning that either my tolerance for weird is incredibly high compared to the fourms (or at least this thread) or all of yours are incredibly low. I watched a woman swallow a rat live last night without flinching, Excel Saga is nothing compared to things like that.

[Rodin]

I'm learning that either my tolerance for weird is incredibly high compared to the fourms (or at least this thread) or all of yours are incredibly low. I watched a woman swallow a rat live last night without flinching, Excel Saga is nothing compared to things like that.

The point isn't that Excel Saga is weirder than stuff like that, but rather that Excel Saga is way weirder than normal anime, and certainly far weirder than anything you would want to show someone when you're trying to get them interested in the genre. Knaight pretty much nailed it - Excel Saga is what I would call "mainstream weird." It's something that can get pretty out there, but normal enough for it to get wider recognition than the really freaky stuff. It's still something that I wouldn't recommend for anyone that isn't thoroughly invested in the genre, any more than I would recommend FLCL as an introductory anime to say "this is what the genre is like". Because it isn't.

[Kitten Champion]

I find the idea that somehow Excel Saga is too esoteric that only diehards can appreciate it, or that it's likely to freak an average viewer out, pretty questionable. You needn't grasp the finer details of every genre they parody to find humour in its absurdity, I don't think it does anything that's extreme by the standards of Western cartoons like Family Guy.

Most Japanese comedy is different than Western concepts of it - closer to Monty Python than anything like Seinfeld, Friends, or the Simpsons - gags, absurdity, manzai-esque overreactions, that sort of stuff. Excel Saga is pretty indicative of it, rather than some outlier.

[Kato]

I'm learning that either my tolerance for weird is incredibly high compared to the fourms (or at least this thread) or all of yours are incredibly low. I watched a woman swallow a rat live last night without flinching, Excel Saga is nothing compared to things like that.

As Rodin says, that is not the point. Different people enjoy different kinds of absurdity, enjoyment is not the same as tolerance. Excel saga is weird, and if you say it's not weirder than other anime I have to wonder what else you watch or if you really don't grasp the level of surreality that is the focus of most of it's joke. (From what I could tell from the first two or three episodes)
If you enjoy it you are certainly not alone, but just as not everyone enjoys abstract art, not everyone enjoys Excel humor.

[Razade]

As Rodin says, that is not the point. Different people enjoy different kinds of absurdity, enjoyment is not the same as tolerance. Excel saga is weird, and if you say it's not weirder than other anime I have to wonder what else you watch or if you really don't grasp the level of surreality that is the focus of most of it's joke. (From what I could tell from the first two or three episodes)
If you enjoy it you are certainly not alone, but just as not everyone enjoys abstract art, not everyone enjoys Excel humor.

I gave a pretty decent list of anime that I felt were more surreal and weird than Excel Saga.


Paranoia Agent
Serial Experiment Lain
Penguindrum
Cat Soup
Mawaru Penguindrum
Mind Game
Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo (for a little humor)
Dead Leaves

I neither enjoyed the aforementioned rat swallowing or the anime of Excel. I found Excel to be mostly pointless and while I got the jokes they were going for it fell mostly flat for me. The 26th episode was kinda fun though.

[Knaight]

I gave a pretty decent list of anime that I felt were more surreal and weird than Excel Saga.

My memory might just be off, but those I've seen from the list didn't seem odder, and I've seen part of Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo without finding it that weird. Lacking in quality, yes, but not all that weird.

[Lethologica]

Lain was technoweird, which is a brand of weird I'm passably familiar with, but I agree it's weird. I believe Paprika also came up in the 'weirder than Excel Saga' category, and that I don't understand. Great movie, but as weirdness goes, Paprika is maybe one step up from Inception. How much subjectivity are we dealing with here?

[8BitNinja]

I find the idea that somehow Excel Saga is too esoteric that only diehards can appreciate it, or that it's likely to freak an average viewer out, pretty questionable. You needn't grasp the finer details of every genre they parody to find humour in its absurdity, I don't think it does anything that's extreme by the standards of Western cartoons like Family Guy.

Most Japanese comedy is different than Western concepts of it - closer to Monty Python than anything like Seinfeld, Friends, or the Simpsons - gags, absurdity, manzai-esque overreactions, that sort of stuff. Excel Saga is pretty indicative of it, rather than some outlier.

I have a friend who lives in Japan, and he says that these anime (is it animes or anime?) are weird too, so it's not entirely an American thing