Making a sword and board rogue need archetype advice

[Anfears]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield. He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster) because he will be multiclassing into sorcerer to at least to level 4. this will also give him a fairly high ac of 19 with a shield,draconic resilience and moderately armored feat at Lv 6. He will not be a tank though his high ac is so that he can stay in close range and block hits if needed. What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build or leveling advice is much appreciated. p.s the game has started and he is now level 2

Stats
Str 8
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14

[Waazraath]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield(moderately armored feat). He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster). What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build is much appreciated

Any, except assassin. If you want medium armor, you want the best, which would give disadvantage on stealth - something you need imo as an assasin. If you go arcane trickster, you need to keep in mind when making spell selection that you don't have a free arm in combat, so pick spells with only verbal components, or long duration buffs, or utility spells.

[Jamesps]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield(moderately armored feat). He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster). What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build is much appreciated

You may consider actually making this a multi-class to pick up your armor proficiency. This will free up your first feat for shield master. Depending on how outside the box you want your character it might also free up stat points you'd normally put in dexterity so you can wear plate mail instead.

I say this because the shove ability for shield-master is way better for rogues than most other classes, particularly if you're a strength-oriented rogue. The one issue you'll have with this build is that if you're a magic-user, you'll be somewhat inhibited in the use of arcane magic due to having your hands full. You can still sheath and redraw your weapon, but many DMs will rule that you can only do one or the other on a given round, limiting you to casting spells every other round.

This won't be relevant if the magic you were intending to get access to is divine though.

[Specter]

I'd grab a level of Fighter to free up that feat, get Dueling and gain access to shields, which rogues don't. As for the archetype, Swashbuckler looks solid for the idea, and to Sneak Attack pretty much whenever.

[SharkForce]

I'd grab a level of Fighter to free up that feat, get Dueling and gain access to shields, which rogues don't. As for the archetype, Swashbuckler looks solid for the idea, and to Sneak Attack pretty much whenever.

i'd grab 3 (or more) levels of fighter. battlemaster and rogue work far too well together to pass up. if your DM will allow you to pick UA fighting styles, take a look at those instead... some of them are ridiculous.

also, i personally recommend arcane trickster as your rogue archetype. as a melee armoured rogue, you shouldn't need to worry about targets for sneak attack, assassin really doesn't add that much unless you're expecting to routinely get surprise rounds off, and arcane trickster gives you some neat tricks you can pull off, including most of what the thief can do except at range thanks to mage hand (marbles are just so much more useful when you deploy them under an enemy's feat). if you don't get extra attack or a bonus action attack from some source, arcane trickster also opens up the melee cantrips to you, which are quite a solid damage boost for a class that only attacks once per round anyways.

another alternate multiclass splash would be to go trickster cleric (of course, you could also take some fighter *and* some trickster cleric, if you so desire; but seriously, battlemaster is a hilariously strong option for rogues).

edit: oh, and just to add... it's perfectly fine to make a sword and board rogue. they're great, especially with shield master to generate advantage. but please remember that going sword and board doesn't mean you don't bring a ranged weapon with you, it simply means that you save the ranged weapon for special occasions.

[Anfears]

i probably should have mentioned this at the beginning but i haven't had a chance to till now. this is the same rouge who is a mute in my other thread. so he will have at least 3 levels in sorcerer for subtle spell (probably four so he gets his ability mods at the same time as a fighter). If i go down the spell casting route of arcane trickster i will have to manage two casting ability's with four sorcery points(and the option to chuck spell slots for more). That is why i am kinda conflicted i can take more magic for a lot of useful spells and the mage hand,or i can go into swashbuckler and get free sneak attacks. I may even just decided to not go into sorcerer at all instead dipping into fighter for four levels and taking swashbuckler(for story reasons though i don't want to go down this route) I could also spec into fighter anyways once i gain my four levels in sorcerer but this will throw of his ability score improvements by two levels. he is currently level 2 and will multi-class at level 3 or 4. Tough choices because i am stubborn and want a little magic in my rouges life

[Nifft]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield(moderately armored feat). He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster). What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build is much appreciated

I was going to suggest Barbarian (Totem) -> Rogue (Assassin), and pump Con + Dex, so you end up with a good AC without any armor, and your Con-to-AC explicitly works with a shield.

But if you're already a Sorcerer, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Anfears]

But if you're already a Sorcerer, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
he is not a sorcerer yet if there is a combo that shall sway me i may consider it (but again as stated the sorcerer dip is for roll play more than anything which is why i want it).

[R.Shackleford]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield(moderately armored feat). He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster). What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build is much appreciated

My build that I totally stole from giantitp is like this.

Human variant (moderately armored)

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 12


Int, Wis, and Cha can be switched around.

AC: 18
You won't be a sneaking rogue but you could take expertise stealth and not care about the disadvantage.

Expertise athletics.

Take shield master at level 4. YoI don't really need to boost your str all that much but I would hit 18 1st least.

Boost Con.

Expertise shove (BA), advantage attack + sneak attack.


Edit

I like Mastermind and Swashbuckler for this type of build, just depends on your mental stats.

[MrFahrenheit]

Thief 3/battle master 5 (but works as soon as you hit battle master 3, minus the second attack)

Going up against an enemy with items? Your DM will hate you.

Round 1: fast hands the opponent's bolstered backup weapon as a bonus action, free action to equip rapier, disarming attack the bad guy's equipped weapon, and then you still have a second attack to add insult to injury.

Round 2: if your fellow PCs didn't chip in and kick the enemy's weapon away, they suck. But now you can do so. In any event, combat just got a lot more boring, but you should win.

(Edit: action economy correction)

[MrFahrenheit]

And if the enemy doesn't have items, there are other uses for your fast hands and other maneuver dice up your sleeve.

[Nifft]

he is not a sorcerer yet if there is a combo that shall sway me i may consider it (but again as stated the sorcerer dip is for roll play more than anything which is why i want it).

Well, consider the benefits of the Barbarian as a multi-class (starting as a Rogue for all the juicy Proficiencies):
- Level 1: Shield proficiency, Martial weapon proficiency, Unarmored Defense (Con to AC)
- Level 2: Danger Sense (= Advantage on Dexterity saves, great synergy with Evasion)
- Level 3: BEAR TOTEM (= resistance to almost all damage while Raging, means you can QUARTER damage from one attack in combo with Uncanny Dodge)
- Level 4: Feat
- Level 5: Extra Attack, Fast Movement (great synergy with Cunning Action)
- Level 6: WOLF TOTEM (You can track other creatures while traveling at a fast pace, and you can move stealthily while traveling at a normal pace, so you sneak at 40 ft. per turn instead of 15 ft. per turn.)

... and that's it. I don't think you'll get much bonus damage from Rage, but as a damage mitigation tool it's pretty great -- and the Str check & Str save bonus is situational, but you choose when you gain it, so it can be very good.

Start with 2 or 3 levels of Rogue, then take 5 or 6 levels of Barbarian, and finish out Rogue.

Wear a trenchcoat and a shield.

Flap your trenchcoat open, shout "Surprise!", and stab a jerk in the face with your rapier.

[R.Shackleford]

Well, consider the benefits of the Barbarian as a multi-class (starting as a Rogue for all the juicy Proficiencies):
- Level 1: Shield proficiency, Martial weapon proficiency, Unarmored Defense (Con to AC)
- Level 2: Danger Sense (= Advantage on Dexterity saves, great synergy with Evasion)
- Level 3: BEAR TOTEM (= resistance to almost all damage while Raging, means you can QUARTER damage from one attack in combo with Uncanny Dodge)
- Level 4: Feat
- Level 5: Extra Attack, Fast Movement (great synergy with Cunning Action)
- Level 6: WOLF TOTEM (You can track other creatures while traveling at a fast pace, and you can move stealthily while traveling at a normal pace, so you sneak at 40 ft. per turn instead of 15 ft. per turn.)

... and that's it. I don't think you'll get much bonus damage from Rage, but as a damage mitigation tool it's pretty great -- and the Str check & Str save bonus is situational, but you choose when you gain it, so it can be very good.

Start with 2 or 3 levels of Rogue, then take 5 or 6 levels of Barbarian, and finish out Rogue.

Wear a trenchcoat and a shield.

Flap your trenchcoat open, shout "Surprise!", and stab a jerk in the face with your rapier.

Strength based Rogue/Barbarian is one of my favorite 10 Level builds when I play a martial.

Uncanny Dodge, Danger Sense, Evasion, and Bear Totem while sneak attacking... Lol.

I went Mastermind for the more lol.

[Nifft]

Strength based Rogue/Barbarian is one of my favorite 10 Level builds when I play a martial.

Uncanny Dodge, Danger Sense, Evasion, and Bear Totem while sneak attacking... Lol.

I went Mastermind for the more lol.

Nice.

How many levels did you put into Barbarian?

[R.Shackleford]

Nice.

How many levels did you put into Barbarian?

Really you only need 3 but I went 5/5 split for more HP and extra attack for the Hell of it.

When I rage I essentially get advantage on everything. I was a vuman (moderately armored) with expertise in athletics and took shield master.

BA (Advantage when raging): shove
Attack prone target (advantage from prone or reckless attack) if I hit I will them grapple the target with advantage by putting my foot in the enemy's chest (or if need be I'll drop the rapier).

Rinse and repeat in different ways.

If I'm raging and get hit... 1/ round I take 1/4 the damage.

I have advantage and a +2 (dex) +2 (feat) + prof on dex saves.

My mental saves suck though :(

[Anfears]

STATS:
Str 8
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14

i don't have enough strength to go barbarian

[R.Shackleford]

STATS:
Str 8
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14

i don't have enough strength to go barbarian

You can't really go sword and board at all. That con score is a death trap.

Can you switch your scores around?

Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 17
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

(switch Int and Cha if you like).

Expertise in Athletics.
Moderately armored (+1 str)
Use a shield and armor
Level 3: Swashbuckler (+1 initiative from cha)

Level 4: +1 Str, +1 Con (14, 18)

Level 5: Barbarian 1 (18 AC naked + shield)
Level 6: Barbarian 2
Level 7: Barbarian 3 Totem
Level 8: Barbarian 4 (Shield Master or +2 Str).

When you start off you will use dex to attack and eventually use strength.

Note: at early levels don't be afraid of using the help action and then bonus action disengage/dash.

[Anfears]

well the plan was to go for sorcerer so i get draconic resilience which raises my armor class to 16 then get moderately armored to have an armor class of of 19 at level six. my health pool may be low but i have a high armor class and the ability to escape combat very easily if i go swashbuckler. Plus my party has a strong range line up with two front liners so i can attack and disengage without much risk. he was not meant to be a tank, he was meant to be able to stay in close range and be able to block hits if need be. plus if i am relay scared of things getting past my ac i can go for defensive duelist at level 8 so my ac when getting hit with a melee attack is 22. Con saving throws will be a problem if he gets hit by them though so i will have to find a way to work around that

[R.Shackleford]

well the plan was to go for sorcerer so i get draconic resilience which raises my armor class to 16 then get moderately armored to have an armor class of of 19 at level six. my health pool may be low but i have a high armor class and the ability to escape combat very easily if i go swashbuckler. Plus my part has a strong range line up with two front liners so i can attack and disengage without much risk. he was not meant to be a tank, he was meant to be able to stay in close range and be able to block if hits if need be. plus if i am relay scared of things getting past my ac i can go for defensive duelist at level 8 so my ac when getting hit with a melee attack is 22. Con saving throws will be a problem if he gets hit by them though so i will have to find a way to work around that

I did not see your later post about your character. You might want to edit your OP.

[Anfears]

I did not see your later post about your character. You might want to edit your OP.

Just did that should clear things up

[Goodberry]

As a magic-using rogue, Defensive Duelist is is possibly the worst feat you can choose(okay fine, Keen Mind and Weapon Master are worse, but I'm pretty sure those were just put in as a joke). Between the Shield spell and Uncanny Dodge, you always have a better defensive use for your reaction. Not to mention the value of using your reaction to achieve a second Sneak Attack per round if you can manage it. If you want more defense, you can go with Tough, Healer or Medium Armour Master(if you're going with medium armour as was discussed above).

[djreynolds]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield. He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster) because he will be multiclassing into sorcerer to at least to level 4. this will also give him a fairly high ac of 19 with a shield,draconic resilience and moderately armored feat at Lv 6. He will not be a tank though his high ac is so that he can stay in close range and block hits if needed. What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build or leveling advice is much appreciated.

Stats
Str 8
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14

DO NOT DUMP STRENGTH, a 13 or 14 is just fine for expertise in athletics and shield master. Your tanks will love you when you prone someone.

All of my S&B fighter will take a level of rogue for expertise in athletics and shield master, its so powerful and a 13 in dex is just one for one point buy. I like the swashbuckler, it keys on charisma and sorcerer will be a nice addition and you will have a really good initiative, to prone people. Remember to take the shield spell, yes you get uncanny dodge but not getting hit is better.

[Nifft]

he was not meant to be a tank, he was meant to be able to stay in close range and be able to block hits if need be.

That sounds exactly like what "a tank" would be able to do.

Did you roll or point-buy your stats? Are you allowed to use the standard array instead? If so, maybe go:

Str: 13
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

The scores you care about most would be Dex + Con, with a few points in Str or Wis if you have any spare, but you won't have many spare because multiclassing and feats both reduce your available ASI points.

[Anfears]

That sounds exactly like what "a tank" would be able to do.

Did you roll or point-buy your stats? Are you allowed to use the standard array instead?

my DM is a very strict rules as written kind of person so unless there is a way to change my stats after start in the book he will not allow it

[Citan]

I want to make my rogue fairly melee heavy wielding a rapier and shield. He will also have some magic in his arsenal up to at least level 2(level four if he goes arcane trickster) because he will be multiclassing into sorcerer to at least to level 4. this will also give him a fairly high ac of 19 with a shield,draconic resilience and moderately armored feat at Lv 6. He will not be a tank though his high ac is so that he can stay in close range and block hits if needed. What i need help with is deciding what archetype to spec him into. any advice about what the best archetype for this kind of build or leveling advice is much appreciated.

Stats
Str 8
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14
Hi!
For a pure Rogue, I would have advised an Arcane Trickster without a doubt.
For a multiclass Rogue / Draconic Sorcerer, it's more a mixed bag. I'd say it mainly depends on how you want to play in the end.

IF you intend to use spellcasting mainly for utility/buff and only occasional offense, then you will probably go Sorcerer between 5 and 8 in the end. This should be enough to provide you as much spellcasting capacity as a pure Arcane Trickster.
In that case, I'd recommend taking Swashbucker because it has more synergy with martial S&B play.

If, however, you plan on being really a gish in the end, using spells to debuff and hurt as often as you just land Sneak Attacks, then Arcane Trickster is the sensible choice, because the lvl 9 ability will prove invaluable for you.

So, to detail a bit...


As Sorcerer, pick up only utility/buff spells such as Mirror Image, Blur, Invisibility etc. You obviously also pick up at least one melee cantrip. Going Sorcerer 6 could be nice because you get +CHA to one cantrip damage, but since you don't have high CHA (and no obvious reason to spend ASI on it), it's really dispensable.

So it's more a matter of choosing between one more MP, spell known and slot, and the great "Wisdom saving throw proficiency" + 1 more SA dice. I'd rather choose the latter but both choices are arguable.

Swash 15 / Drac 5 would really play out as the arrogant duelist that provokes his enemies in duel but is slew enough to buff himself with magic as needed to ensure his victory.



This time, you pick up utility spells when leveling up your arcane trickster, just dipping one-two Sorcerer at lower levels for the feeling, then up Sorcerer for good once you got Arcane Trickster 9, learning powerful debuff / offense spells.

As for the final cut, you get two nice options:
Rogue 14 nets you Blindsense, which can birth a very dangerous combo for your foes since Sorcerer can cast Darkness.
On the other hand, Sorcerer 7 can let you cast Greater Invisibility, which seems to me equally frightening for your enemies. ;)

Both ways tip-toe on one of the Swash archetype benefit:
if you're in darkness or invisible, others still get opportunity attack but it will be made at disadvantage.
AND you automatically gets advantage (unless somehow you suffer a disadvantage) meaning you enable SA.

So, this build can be actually very nasty in spite of having a low spellcasting stat.


There are other good builds that could be made, especially if you don't care so much about skills, like Swashbuckler 8 / Sorcerer 12... But I think it would be a be sad. ;)

As for the ones I described, all will be good. So the main criterion to choose will be your party composition (pal blinding all his buds can be very annoying ^^) and personal taste.

Have fun!

[Anfears]

how important are ability score increases? because if take un-even levels i lose them. if there not super important then the above mentioned swash sorcerer sounds good

[Citan]

how important are ability score increases? because if take un-even levels i lose them. if there not super important then the above mentioned swash sorcerer sounds good
Arrm, I have to say it is a difficult question to answer. ;)
Because it depends very much on what you want in the long run.

The only sure things are:
1. You need to get DEX to 18 at least, 20 would be very nice especially for your builds: while the +1 to hit is not that important for you (you will have many ways to get advantage), neither the +1 damage (negligeable compared to SA), it's also better AC, better save and better initiative.
2. Medium armor proficiency is wasted on you since you have Draconic Resilience.
3. You really want shield proficiency one way or another.
4. Your Constitution is low. Survivable but low. So you may or not want to bump it by 2 somewhere in your career.
In the case you don't plan on taking another feat than Moderately Armored, any of the above builds will be equally good for you. You get at least 2 ASI that you can use to max DEX and bump CON.
If you'd like another feat such as Warcaster, you will have to make choices. ;)

Also, considering that Moderately Armored brings you "only" +1 DEX and medium armor + shields, after thoughts, I'd strongly suggest using another approach: start Fighter 1.
Why? Several benefits for limited drawbacks.


1. Saving throw proficiencies.

You trade DEX & INT for CON & STR. Since CON & STR are low, and DEX is high, it means that you get good saves in three abilities instead of one extra good (DEX) and two that suck (CON).

Otherwise said, on one hand, Evasion will work less often (since you'll have lesser bonus on DEX) BUT, on the other hand, you'll be much less susceptible to restrain spells (STR) and life-affect spells (CON), and you will have better chance to keep concentration. It does not compete with Warcaster either (since Warcaster gives advantage on save).
Actually, if you plan on using Haste, this would probably be the best course.

2. Equipment proficiencies
You immediately get shield proficiency.
So now, Moderately Armored becomes totally useless.

* Either you change your starting stat for 16 DEX and better other stats, and you bump by 2...

* Or you change your CHA to an odd number (13 or 15) and bump both CHA and DEX to even numbers on first ASI.

* Or you take Resilient: DEX as first ASI (probably the best) to get Dex to 18 and cover the initial loss of starting Fighter instead of Rogue.

Additional bonus
You can get Fighting style: Dueling is not the best bet here since +2 won't make such a difference.
Protection could be nice, but it eats up your reaction which you should rather want to spend on opportunity attacks so...
Defense is the easy choice, +1 AC is always great.

And, you can later get another Fighter level if you really fancy Action Surge (but I'd really advise against it though because last Rogue levels are great).

The one big drawback
You will want to take Sorcerer at least to 5 for lvl 3 spells, so mathematically you renounce to Rogue 15, Wisdow proficiency.
I would say it's a fair trade but it has to be noted.

So, for example, since you seem to like the Swashbuckler / Draconic Sorcerer build. ;)
1. Fighter: what I said above: all required proficiencies, CON and STR saving throws, +1 AC.
2. Sorcerer: actually I put Sorcerer first here because of Draconic Resilience and cantrips.
3. Rogue: Expertise and Sneak Attack.
4. Rogue: Cunning Action.
5. Swash: your build is nearly online, lacks Metamagic.
6. Swash: due time for ASI (Resilient: DEX).
7. Swash: because Uncanny Dodge.
Beyond that, it's up to how you feel it. If you feel you're sturdy enough, I'd recommend upping Sorcerer now at least up to 4 to get 2nd level spells (including Blur and Mirror Image) and ASI. Otherwise, going Rogue 8 for additional Expertise, Evasion, SA and ASI is equally viable.
My suggestion below. ;)
8. Sorcerer: Metamagic.
9. Sorcerer: 2nd level spells: Mirror Image or Blur + Scorching Ray.
10. Sorcerer: ASI (+2 DEX, +2 CON, Warcaster, Mage Slayer, Sentinel).

+2 DEX is the easy way: you get better in everything you do.
With that said, if you feel you good enough as is (in terms of hit chance and AC) taking another option can be great:
+2 CON is a solid benefit for you overall.
Shield Master could have been nice in other builds, but too much redundant here for you. Same with Mobile.
Warcaster + Booming Blade is an obvious choice here, allowing you to deal powerful damage (SA) AND applying soft control (damage on move).
Mage Slayer could be great also if you are good at hit-and-run tactics, as well as Sentinel if you fight in duo. Both of them will require you to stay in the heat though, so it's a bit more risky to use than Warcaster. ;)

11. Sorcerer: 3nd level spells (Haste / Slow / Fireball).
12+: Sorcerer (if you want Draconic and more spellcasting) then Rogue, Fighter to get Action Surge (and maybe Battlemaster) then Rogue or pure Rogue all the way.

End build 1: Fighter 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 5 / Swashbuckler 14
If you want to combo Darkness and Blindsense.
End build 2: Fighter 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 6 / Swashbuckler 13
If you want a bit more spellcasting and Metamagic.
End build 3: Fighter 2 / Draconic Sorcerer 5 / Swashbuckler 13
If you want Action Surge.
End build 4: Battlemaster Fighter 3 / Draconic Sorcerer 5 / Swashbuckler 12
Because some Manoeuvers are great for a Rogue, and you don't care about Swashbuckler 13 ability but still need ASI.
End build 5: Fighter 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 7 / Swashbukcler 12.
Because you really fancy spellcasting and Polymorpht / Greater Invisibility / whatever, and still don't care about Swash 13. ;)

Franckly, my only suggestion would be "don't be afraid to stop at Rogue 12". Blindsense can be great overall, but you don't know how often it will come into play if yourself don't use Darkness (and you have many options for your concentration).
Swashbuckler 13 is a use for bonus action, and you will have many uses for it already.
So it's basically trading one SA dice for other benefits. ;)

Hope that helps. ;)

[PoeticDwarf]

Any, except assassin. If you want medium armor, you want the best, which would give disadvantage on stealth - something you need imo as an assasin. If you go arcane trickster, you need to keep in mind when making spell selection that you don't have a free arm in combat, so pick spells with only verbal components, or long duration buffs, or utility spells.

Or take medium armor master and go for 20AC (21 picking up defense, 25/26 with shield spell) and still assassinate

[Anfears]

start Fighter 1
He already has two levels in rogue but he can go into fighter at third level if that would be useful

[Dimcair]

I just want to send some caution your way.
Rogue and certain Fighter archetypes do not go well together as your reactions and bonus actions are limited. Watch out for that.

[djreynolds]

S&B rogues with shield master and strength and expertise in athletics are awesome. You do not need much strength, just don't dump it. Even a 12 is just fine.

[Citan]

He already has two levels in rogue but he can go into fighter at third level if that would be useful
Hey, sorry, I missed that info.
In that case, I'd say it's up to you to stay on track of your initial plan: Fighter 1 would only bring you Fighting Style and proficiencies. Not sure that's worth a whole level, but I have no definitive opinion on this. Maybe others will. :)
I would personnally prefer going Rogue 4 first then to take your Moderately Armored feat then dip Sorcerer...

[Anfears]

Rogue 4 first then to take your Moderately Armored feat then dip Sorcerer
that would probably be for the best so i guess the only question now is do i rush sorcerer six or only dip a little and come back for more magic later? P.S. i can see there a benefit to strength so i will consider getting him to 12 i favor con at this point over the ability to shove and grapple but i am sure i will be able to find some gauntlets of ogre strength in a dungeon somewhere.

[Citan]

that would probably be for the best so i guess the only question now is do i rush sorcerer six or only dip a little and come back for more magic later? P.S. i can see there a benefit to strength so i will consider getting him to 12 i favor con at this point over the ability to shove and grapple but i am sure i will be able to find some gauntlets of ogre strength in a dungeon somewhere.
Every path will be good. :)
I would though suggest dipping Sorcerer 1, then Rogue 5, then Sorcerer 2-3 so your character concept is fully online and you get at least lvl 2 spells to help you. Beyond that, you can just think about which class to get in the heat of the "level up" moment or how you feel about your survivability/offense/utility. ^^

[SharkForce]

if rogue 4 is just going to be picking up moderately armoured, you get that (and then some) from your level 1 fighter dip.