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View Full Version : Is Occluded Mind too broken for combat? How are you ruling it?



YCombinator
2016-04-15, 11:35 PM
My DM and I discussed Occluded Mind tonight, as I'm running a Psion. In combat I successfully landed an Occluded Mind and said "If you attack us, you'll die." My DM asked if the monster got to reroll the save DC every round, I said no. "That seems overpowered." he said. I kind of agreed.

Another player suggested that maybe it's like charm person where if you're in combat they won't do what you say. But that's really not in the spirit of Occluded Mind. You're not bringing their level of liking of you down a level from hostile to friendly. You're making them believe something.

I honestly don't even know what happened to my enemy. The Mind Flayer I Occluded (Yes I successfully Occluded a Mind Flayer, I'm so proud) just disappeared (probably plane shift) on the next round of combat. My DM just said "That seems over powered." and "Alright, we'll see what happens on this next turn." and then he was gone.

Here's the text for reference:

As an action, you target a creature that you can see within 120 feet of you. The target must make an Intelligence saving throw (it succeeds automatically if it is immune to being charmed. On a failed save, the target believes one statement of your choice for the next 5 minutes, provided that it understands the statement. The statement can be up to ten words long, and must describe you or a creature or object the target can see. On a successful save, the target is unaffected, and you can’t use this ability on it again until you finish a long rest.


How are DMs ruling this? Is there a wording that doesn't just nullify a character who fails the save from the entire combat? There are tons of ways to just nullify a combatant.

"Your crossbow is a longsword." Bam, the ranged attacker is now in melee uselessly hitting people with a blunt, flexible device. That's an improvised weapon at best.

"You can't cast spells." comes to mind, turning a wizard into a terrible ranger. I hope you've got elven weapon training, bro.

Out of combat, this spell has boundless uses each more entertaining than the next. Honestly I think it's more oriented to out of combat and might be fine with a stipulation that it cannot be used on an enemy combatant but that definitely robs the Psion of a really great control spell. But it definitely seems like it's just not able to be balanced being as vague and open ended as it is.

Anyone playing with this? How do you actually use it? I'm not looking for a 1001 great 10-word sentences to use with Occluded Mind thread. That exists. But examples of phrases you've accepted in the situations they were in would be nice. What, if anything, have you rejected?

Ruslan
2016-04-16, 01:06 AM
My DM and I discussed Occluded Mind tonight, as I'm running a Psion. In combat I successfully landed an Occluded Mind and said "If you attack us, you'll die."

"Then I will die. But not today (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) <slashslashstabstab>"

Belac93
2016-04-16, 01:37 AM
Well, Suggestion works on much the same principle. Here is what is better about each of them.

Suggestion
Lasts for 8 hours, or 96 times as long.
Can be up to two sentences instead of only 10 words.

Occluded Mind
Does not require concentration
Can be used to make anyone believe something totally unreasonable or dumb.
Targets a less common save.

kaoskonfety
2016-04-16, 08:09 AM
Basically the power can knock something out of combat without actually killing it or be used as more of a utility trick. Its nice, perhaps a bit too good, but as Belac points out, Suggestion is impressive as all hells.

I'd go with something like "you are paralyzed and powerless to move" for hold person with only 1 save.

I can see them inserting a "the effect breaks if you or your allies attack the target/they take damage" for any official class release just owing to the "save of loose" aspect at relatively low cost. Something in this vein for a house rule would probably make it less busted for you and your DM.

YCombinator
2016-04-16, 08:38 AM
"Then I will die. But not today (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0189.html) <slashslashstabstab>"

Okay, fine, given that wording and your interpretation of it, there's a loophole. Firstly, I could change the sentence to something else that equally nullifies the combatant. Secondly, I'm not trying to get my DM and I into a battle of one-ups-manship to see who can be more pedantic about phrases in the English language. I'm looking for guidelines on how folks use and rule on this power.


Well, Suggestion works on much the same principle. Here is what is better about each of them.

Suggestion
Lasts for 8 hours, or 96 times as long.
Can be up to two sentences instead of only 10 words.

Occluded Mind
Does not require concentration
Can be used to make anyone believe something totally unreasonable or dumb.
Targets a less common save.

Oh thanks. That's a good point. The comparison with Suggestion is spot on and Suggestion has a few examples of how it's used as well. I imagine a fully written up version of Occluded Mind would have details saying that a creature will not believe "You need to kill yourself." for example. I was, in fact, implicitly playing my Occluded Mind following that guideline anyway.

Spacehamster
2016-04-16, 09:01 AM
Omg could have so much fun with this tho, in town to some peasant "you are a duck" he starts going around quacking and make a total mockery out of himself. :D

YCombinator
2016-04-16, 10:19 AM
Omg could have so much fun with this tho, in town to some peasant "you are a duck" he starts going around quacking and make a total mockery out of himself. :D

Oh believe me, my character uses this to great effect constantly out of combat. "You will experience pain unless you start and continue dancing." is a favorite of my character and often finishes his NPC conversation by leaving them in that state for the next 5 minutes. Two power points very well spent.

Roughishguy86
2016-04-16, 11:51 AM
I have in my experience found that psionics as a whole is overpowered in some way or another.
I haven't had any experience with it in 5th yet though.