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View Full Version : Leap Attack and the Frenzied Berserker



...Eh?
2007-06-22, 05:14 PM
The Frenzied Berserker gets special abilities called Improved Power Attack and Supreme Power Attack, which improve the attack penalty to damage bonus ratio, and it doesn't stack with Power Attack's normal bonuses. (When you're using a two-handed weapon, it's +3 damage for every -1 on the attack roll for Improved, then it's +4 for every -1 from Supreme.) Does it stack with Leap Attack, making Massive Damage not only possible, but very, very likely? (Assuming 16 Strength, a Barbarian 6/Frewnzied Berserker 5 who was both frenzied and raging would only need to take a -5 penalty to deal 53+weapon damage.) Supreme Power Attack makes it even worse, because you can accheive massive damage with a base 16 strength by taking a -3 penalty, and it's hard top believe someone who was at least level 16 wouldn't have higher strength than that.

Also, is Frenzed Berserker worth taking? It seems kinda...iffy. You snap as soon as you take damage, and if you rage a frenzy at the same time, you;'re exausted at the end. Plus, if you kill all your enemies, you need to make a DC 20 Will save, or your allies better hope to God that they can outrun you.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-22, 05:19 PM
Of course they stack. Why wouldn't they stack? DOes it say anywhere that they don't?

Frenzied Berserker is not a PrC that plays well with others. But it can deal incredible damage if you build it properly.

Zincorium
2007-06-22, 05:31 PM
This is highly contested. The WotC help desk (which many people claim is automatically wrong) has to my knowledge given answers both ways. My May version of the FAQ is silent on the matter.

The best interpretation is I believe from one of the errata files WotC put out, probably from complete warrior.

Leap attack should enable the character to deal %100 percent more of normal power attack damage when charging, so a character with a one handed weapon will deal %200 of the amount they subtract from their attack roll, and a two hander will deal %300 (200 normally + 100) of the number they subtract.

The frenzied berserker with a normal %400 return is going to go up to %500, not the %1200 that a casual reading would suggest.

As far as worth it, I'd say no. One of the main advantages of having rage is that you can use it when you really need it, and you don't have to spend it before then. Frenzy gets used up whenever it's activated, which could be from something as simple as setting off a trap. Then that use is gone without giving something productive.

Basically, the class is too powerful and the drawback they gave it is too disruptive to gameplay. The NWN 2 interpretation is a lot more playable I think, with the use of frenzy still up to the PC and the nonlethal damage turned into actual damage, which returns the drawback to the player that chose that class.

I have had a bad experience with a frenzied berserker in our party freaking out, killing the enemy, rolling a 20 to resist our cleric's hasty sanctuary spell and bisecting him with another 20 before removing a large part of my fleeing halfling's anatomy. Not fun.

...Eh?
2007-06-22, 06:03 PM
Well, you do technically get a Will save to avoid freaking, but if you've been attacked more than once since your last action, it's stupidly hard. 10+damage dealt since your last action. At level 7 (at the least) that can be pretty high.

What are some good, melee-licious THF classes for a fighter or barbarian other than the 'Zerker, then?

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-06-22, 06:30 PM
I have had a bad experience with a frenzied berserker in our party freaking out, killing the enemy, rolling a 20 to resist our cleric's hasty sanctuary spell and bisecting him with another 20 before removing a large part of my fleeing halfling's anatomy. Not fun.

Which seems to make you biased; it's unbelievably easy to avoid this.

Go to Tome of Battle and look up Iron Heart Surge. It's a 100% effective way to get out of your frenzy.

As for Leap Attack, it adds +100% to your PA return. FB changes what your PA return is. So you get the 12:1 ratio.

Nebo_
2007-06-22, 07:04 PM
This is highly contested. The WotC help desk (which many people claim is automatically wrong) has to my knowledge given answers both ways. My May version of the FAQ is silent on the matter.

The best interpretation is I believe from one of the errata files WotC put out, probably from complete warrior.

Leap attack should enable the character to deal %100 percent more of normal power attack damage when charging, so a character with a one handed weapon will deal %200 of the amount they subtract from their attack roll, and a two hander will deal %300 (200 normally + 100) of the number they subtract.

The frenzied berserker with a normal %400 return is going to go up to %500, not the %1200 that a casual reading would suggest.



That's completely wrong. You'd actually get 12:1 on your power attack.

Daedo daShoegod
2007-06-22, 07:04 PM
Actually, leap atk does stack w/supreme power atk, but remember that a multiplier only increases it one more time...for example Leap atk cause a two-handed leaping power atk to be one more than normal (x3 stead of x2). With a leaping supreme power atk you could effectively deal 5 dmg for every -1 to atk you designate, but it definetely wouldn't be 12:1. My brother always plays Barbarians/frienzied berserkers, though the current campaign I'm running is his first good campaign (he's nuetral of course)...:smalleek:

Zincorium
2007-06-22, 07:20 PM
Which seems to make you biased; it's unbelievably easy to avoid this.

Go to Tome of Battle and look up Iron Heart Surge. It's a 100% effective way to get out of your frenzy.

As for Leap Attack, it adds +100% to your PA return. FB changes what your PA return is. So you get the 12:1 ratio.

Yeah...except tome of battle simply did not exist when that happened. So at that point, that sequence was indeed inevitable. Don't assume I'm biased because of a bad experience, I'm just pointing out that when it does go bad, and it can, it is not fun at all. Like a chaotic retarded rogue stealing all your stuff.

Can you negate it in the way you suggest? Technically, yes. Will the DM think it's reasonable? I doubt most will. When you frenzy, you want to kill your friends, and ending frenzy would be considered blatant metagaming in any group I've been in.

Also, having read the errata, I was mostly right, errata is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) if you want confirmation. Make sure to read both the complete warrior and complete adventurer ones. Errata IS official, and it does significantly change leap attack.

And in case the word normal doesn't stick out, normal means what you get without any other effects, i.e. 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 when wielding a weapon with both hands. It would say current instead of normal if that wasn't the case.

So, starting with 2, adding 100% for frenzied berserker and 100% for leap attack, you get a 6 for 1 return when wielding a weapon two handed. Assuming they stack, which it never specifies.

Edit:


That's completely wrong. You'd actually get 12:1 on your power attack.

Hey there! Care to back up anything you just said, which contradicts the errata freely available on WotC's site, with something official? Otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Much like a steam mephit. Except with internet access.