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View Full Version : Speculation What is the Ranger was treated like the Warlock?



UndyingSolon
2016-04-16, 08:43 AM
I've had this idea rolling around my head for a while. People have been talking about their disappointment with the Ranger class for a while, and I think that it is great how WotC has been asking questions during their monthly surveys and play testing different ideas trying to come up with a solution to help players and DM's come to a satisfying conclusion.

A main complaint is the mechanics are either not as powerful as as the other classes (Beastmaster in particular), but I want to focus on how the class feels. Something had been bugging me in regards to the Ranger class since I first picked up the Player’s Handbook, but I could not quite place why. That is, until recently when a friend of mine, after a lengthy discussion after his failed attempt to take down a Stone Giant, muttered in frustration "Aragorn could have pulled it off... Rangers should be built like him."

While I disagree with that premise, something sank in. To look at the iconic Rangers we think of (Longstrider, Drizzt, Richard Sypher) and emulate them is what most players want when they choose to play that class. Yes, we want our own stories and moments of glory, we adapt to varying DM styles and party dynamics, but those are the ideas we start from when we build these types of characters. And, as the system is right now, that isn’t possible. Rangers have two archetypes, which seems restrictive to me. Shouldn’t players be able to create characters as varied as the fictional heroes that serve as the inspiration for the class?

When I was thinking of how the class could be redesigned, I tried to think of the different Rangers I've played, from 3, 3.5, Pathfinder, to similar classes from other role-playing games. I took in ideas from friends and fellow tabletop players, and from videogamers and fantasy fans, and discovered that Rangers have potentially the most varied identity in Tabletop RPG's. There is something about the mix of the connection with nature, the situational adaptation and specialization of the mechanics, the idea of a fighter and caster, and the tie to popular culture that makes everyone have an idea as to what a Ranger is SUPPOSED to be. So, mechanically, there should be a great variation to how a Ranger is built mechanically.

So, I chose to start the conversation around the most varied class in 5e: The Warlock.

“But wait!” you say to yourself, “Warlocks have 3 Patron choices. Even with Unearthed Arcana variants, Clerics and Wizards have them beat by a mile.” Except...

Except, there are two stages of choices to be made by Warlocks: Patrons AND Boons. Not only is there a significant mechanical difference made by the Warlock player at level one, the ability to then make ANOTHER huge mechanical decision at a later level does not just add variation to the class.
It multiplies it.

Functionally, there are 9 different Warlock Archetypes. 3(Fiend, Archfey, or Old one) x 3(Blade, Tome, or Chain)
Any addition from later sources just to the Patron (such as the Positive Energy one from UA) would not just add one variation, but three. If a new Boon were to be developed, it would add variation equal to the number of Patrons. This seems to provide for the variation that players desire for the Ranger.

Here's how I view the mechanics of the Warlock: The Patron provides a Purpose to the class, mechanics dependent on the backstory and theme of the character, while the Boon provides a mechanical Implementation that relies on playstyle. When I talked to various people about the Purposes of their Rangers, the concept of what drives the character in their games, and what bonuses and class features would set them apart from others mechanically, they had some great ideas (some might seem extremely situational, but these are just launching points for discussion):

Survivalist: Thrown into the harshest environments by uncontrollable circumstances, Survivalists have an unbreakable adaptability to deadly situations; advantage on Survival checks and death checks, and a proficiency with improvised weapons

Defender: Sworn protectors of groups of people or places, Defenders exhaust every option when forced to hold against an overwhelming assault; defense bonuses against multiple enemies, Help as a bonus action, advantage on Athletics checks

Naturalist: At one with Nature, Naturalists are compelled to protect the natural order of the world, defending it from creatures and individuals that would corrupt it; advantage on Nature checks, can use insight checks in natural terrain to add conditions similar to Battlemaster maneuvers (DM discretion), can always find shelter and food in natural terrain

Implementations of the Rangers as players have used them in the past focus on a specific mechanic that drew the player to the Ranger in the first place and emphasizes it. The choice would come at level 3:

Hunter: Hunters have chosen to specialize in tracking down foes on the run; Favored Prey bonuses, Investigate bonuses, use of traps

Greenseer: Greenseers have trained themselves in Druidic magic to enhance their fighting capabilities, Favored Terrain bonuses, use of magic similar to Eldritch Knight with Druid spell list

Juggernaut: Juggernauts have trained to be on the frontlines of a battle, having conditional training against specific foes; Favored Enemy bonuses, attack bonuses vs single opponents, eventually heavy armor

Beastmaster: Beastmasters have sent a piece of their spirit into the wild, having it connect to a beast to aid them in their Purpose; Animal Companion, Animal Handling bonuses, feral features dependent on animal companion type (claws, leaping, sight, charge bonus, etc)

As it is, it would make 12 variations of the Ranger that, in my opinion, feel different from one another. You can already start to see where mechanics from the classes as they currently are and from previous editions would fall into place

What do you munchkins think? As I said, this is all speculation and at a very early stage of concept, so throw at me your suggestions.

Belac93
2016-04-16, 10:18 AM
I think this idea is awesome. A suggestion; Make Favoured enemy not a defining feature. Treat it as a bit more of a ribbon, or make it deal damage, or something other than just an extra language and the ability to track.

Roughishguy86
2016-04-16, 10:19 AM
I truly like what your trying to do here and i agree completely that playing the ranger i want is not possible in 5.E. One of my favorite fantasy series is the drizzt series however when i want to play a ranger i want too play strider. I dont want the magic spells or the beast companion. I want to be able too scout sfor my party survive on my own and take control of any bad situation with a wealth of knowledge from spending so much time in the wild surviving alone and having too know what is trying too kill me.

I have actually thought about homebrewing my own subclass for ranger that would function more like strider. maybe once i have more free time i will upload it. currently i'm moving so.

Kish
2016-04-16, 10:56 AM
"You, mortal. I'll teach you how to shoot a bow better than anyone else...in exchange for YOUR SOUL!"

(Couldn't resist.)

R.Shackleford
2016-04-16, 11:13 AM
Change the evocation (invocations?) to "Natural Selection" and then refluff/remake a bunch of different leveled ones.

Giant2005
2016-04-16, 11:27 AM
The thing that makes the Warlock interesting is the Invocations. If you want to transplant that same effect to the Ranger, then the Invocations are what you need, not simply a second arbitrary choice.
Without the Invocations, the only thing that a Warlock chooses at level 3 is a single ability, which is something the Hunter already does. In fact, in absence of Invocations, the Hunter has far more choices available to him than the Warlock does (due to making additional choices at levels 7, 11, and 15).

twas_Brillig
2016-04-16, 11:45 AM
This is a really interesting idea! I don't have any big mechanical ideas right off the bat, but as a way of clarifying flavor does anyone else think "Vanguard" might be more evocative than "Defender"? The LoTR-style Ranger was all about defending civilization from the edge of the wild and beyond, which to me sounds more active than just "Defender". (Defender also runs pretty close to the name of a fighting style.)

I think as far as WotC was concerned, Fighting Styles were probably the ranger's (and other primary, trained martials') second point of customization. I don't know if that means it'd be bad to give them three in total (it'd certainly fit the theme of customization), but it'd be good to keep that in mind when balancing their options. Alternatively, the Juggernaut could be based around different kinds of martial expertise with a wilderness bent. I'd argue it's important not to stray too close to just being another/better fighter, but there's still a lot of room to work in.




Class
Subclass category
Subclass names
Secondary choice?


Barbarian
Primal Paths
"Path of the..."



Bards
Bard Colleges
"College of..."



Cleric
Divine Domain
"...Domain"



Druid
Druid Circle
"Circle of the..."



Fighter
Martial Archetype
"[Dramatic Noun]"
Fighting Style


Monk
Monastic Tradition
"Way of the..."



Paladin
Sacred Oath
"Oath of..."
Fighting Style


Ranger
Ranger Archetype
"[Dramatic Noun]"
Fighting Style


Rogue
Roguish Archetype
"[Dramatic Noun]"



Sorcerer
Sorcerous Origin
"[Adjective] [Noun]"



Warlock
Otherworldy Patron
"The..."
Pact Boon, "Pact of the..."


Wizard
Arcane Tradition
"School of..."




I got curious about whether there were any naming conventions between the different types of subclass (never having thought to check), so I went ahead and made a list above. Subclasses universally follow an [Adjective] [Noun] pattern. (Fighters, rogues, and rangers got lightly shorted, all using essentially "[Class] Archetype".) Likewise, Fighting Style and Pact Boon fit that same pattern. I'd say "Order" or "Duty" would be decent themes to encompass both the Defender and the Naturalist, but the Survivalist and a lot of rangers emphasize individuality too much for that to necessarily make sense. That said, the implementations/specialties/walks/what-have-yous could be interesting as varied experts loosely-united under a single cause.

jas61292
2016-04-16, 12:32 PM
As neat as this sounds, I feel like it is not really following the Warlock and is in fact running somewhat counter to the design principles of 5e. While Warlocks make some choices, they have one, and only one archetype. The pact boon is a single minor feature chosen at level 3. Yes, invocations can effect it, but the feature itself is fairly minor. What you have here would be giving the ranger two full, independent archetypes, and that just feels wrong.

Now, following the warlock style wouldn't be bad, but you would need to give it a single boon and then feature selections, some of which may be boon exclusive. For example, you shouln't have a single boon choice give a full scaling animal companion with skill bonuses and feral traits for yourself. Instead, the warlock like way to handle it would be to have a single boon choice give you a basic animal companion (probably very weak), and then the equivalent of invocations including ones that give handle animal bonuses, feral traits, and the ability to have a stronger, scaling companion, only the latter of which would be restricted to those who chose the animal companion boon.

I get where you are coming from and I do think there is potential to have a multiple choice based solution, but classes should only ever have one archetype. A warlock boon is not anywhere near as significant as an archetype, and only even comes close if you spend a core class trait on improving your boon choice.

Shriketalon
2016-04-16, 05:39 PM
I agree with the principle that giving the Ranger a greater degree of customization would help significantly, but I think the emphasis should be on the mechanical results. There are many aspects of the iconic ranger, which include archery, two weapon fighting, skirmishing, spellcasting, favored terrain, animal companions, leadership, and stealth. The OP's concept of two tiers of choices is a good one, but it needs to be organized by results.

The simple way to handle it would be to have the choices be based on combat style and support.

For combat style, you choose between the Archer, Tempest, and Skirmisher styles. Archers get enhanced bow techniques, and perhaps special arrows which they prepare every day for mystical effects. Tempests are your two weapon fighters, with lots of offensive power and multiattacks. Skirmishers act like the 3rd edition scout, becoming more effective by moving between attacks. Fighting styles should be more fleshed out than the current one-time mechanical bonus, with class features interspersed through the entire career path.

In addition, you get a support mechanic to aid you in your adventures. Beastmasters get a pet. Seekers can cast spells from the druid's spell list. Striders get bonuses based on the terrain, and the ability to assist allies with skill checks dealing with nature. Ideally, these three should be designed so that they benefit all three fighting styles (for instance, the archer likes a tanky beast companion to lock down the enemy, the tempest gets a flanking buddy, and the skirmisher benefits heavily from mounted combat).

Dividing the class between direct combat and support allows it to cover many depictions of the ranger through the class's eclectic history.

Foxhound438
2016-04-16, 06:03 PM
The first thing that comes to mind for me when I think "ranger" is "Army Rangers", the first in last out kind of guys. That said, maybe give an option that gives bonuses when they fight alone? extra benefits for being more than 30 feet away from an ally, like extra mobility and lethality?

R.Shackleford
2016-04-16, 07:00 PM
The first thing that comes to mind for me when I think "ranger" is "Army Rangers", the first in last out kind of guys. That said, maybe give an option that gives bonuses when they fight alone? extra benefits for being more than 30 feet away from an ally, like extra mobility and lethality?

Meh, that sounds like a good idea but in game that will be very troublesome.

No, don't come help me!

No, this one is mine, go away!

Not being adjacent to an ally could work though.

Foxhound438
2016-04-17, 02:17 PM
Meh, that sounds like a good idea but in game that will be very troublesome.

No, don't come help me!

No, this one is mine, go away!

Not being adjacent to an ally could work though.

you could word the requirement akin to the swashbuckler's easier sneak attack thing, just giving a different end benefit.

Fishybugs
2016-04-18, 11:28 AM
I truly like what your trying to do here and i agree completely that playing the ranger i want is not possible in 5.E. One of my favorite fantasy series is the drizzt series however when i want to play a ranger i want too play strider. I dont want the magic spells or the beast companion. I want to be able too scout sfor my party survive on my own and take control of any bad situation with a wealth of knowledge from spending so much time in the wild surviving alone and having too know what is trying too kill me.

I have actually thought about homebrewing my own subclass for ranger that would function more like strider. maybe once i have more free time i will upload it. currently i'm moving so.

Play a ranged rogue with expertise in stealth and survival, fluff it as a ranger. It works pretty well.

Reaver25
2016-04-21, 08:41 PM
I really like this idea. Something I'd like to add:

a character I always think of when I think of Rangers is Halt the Ranger, from Ranger's Apprentice. The coolest thing to me was this: He rarely (if ever due to enemy moving rather than his skill) missed, was great at gathering information, great at hiding, and most importantly to me, VERY quick at firing arrows, as was his apprentice, Will.

Something that has always bothered me about the fighting in D&D is that, yes, some Classes get Extra Attacks which helps when scaling for damage, BUT! It doesn't always signify how fast a character can actually attack when stationary or moving only a little bit. When someone is in combat, they don't just walk forward five feet, they stay lightly on their feet and move close to the enemy in an agile way. Also, most PCs don't just become a class when they start out. Everyone's backstory is usually something like this: X has been a natural swordsman/archer all of X's life... if that was the case, they'd be able to attack much faster than someone who just picks up a weapon and starts swinging it.

My point is, it'd be really cool if there was an extra feature on the Ranger that would allow him to shoot more than one (or two with EA) arrow if he remained stationary, as well as a bonus to hit. Sorry for the rant, just like making things realistic.

Bladeyeoman
2016-04-22, 11:02 AM
This seems really fun, and provides a lot more customization/replayability.

One thing to think about, in fleshing out the Implementations, is that it seems like it's fun, when leveling, to have meaningful decisions to make. For Warlocks, this involves boons and spells. For the current Hunter, they decide on which ability they get at various intervals of levels. I think it would be more fun if the Implementations set you on a path of decisions as you leveled (much like the hunter does now) than if it essentially decided all your abilities down the road. Which means having some flexibility within each implementation. It's not clear if that's something you already intended, but if not, you should think about it.

paddyfool
2016-04-22, 11:15 AM
For combat style, you choose between the Archer, Tempest, and Skirmisher styles. Archers get enhanced bow techniques, and perhaps special arrows which they prepare every day for mystical effects. Tempests are your two weapon fighters, with lots of offensive power and multiattacks. Skirmishers act like the 3rd edition scout, becoming more effective by moving between attacks. Fighting styles should be more fleshed out than the current one-time mechanical bonus, with class features interspersed through the entire career path.

In addition, you get a support mechanic to aid you in your adventures. Beastmasters get a pet. Seekers can cast spells from the druid's spell list. Striders get bonuses based on the terrain, and the ability to assist allies with skill checks dealing with nature. Ideally, these three should be designed so that they benefit all three fighting styles (for instance, the archer likes a tanky beast companion to lock down the enemy, the tempest gets a flanking buddy, and the skirmisher benefits heavily from mounted combat).


+1 for all of the above ideas.

@ the OP: I like most of the ideas you're proposing, but "Juggernaut" feels a bit wrong.