Catapult cantrip

[Roughishguy86]

Has anybody else realized how awesome this spell is if you use it on a pouch of crushed glass?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes. One target makes a Dex save or takes 3d8 damage. It's... not very awesome.

[Gastronomie]

And it's not a Cantrip either.

But it admittedly is fun to fling the severed head of an enemy into the enemy troops and have them cower in fear.

[R.Shackleford]

Yes. One target makes a Dex save or takes 3d8 damage. It's... not very awesome.

Not one target. The spell doesn't target a creature.

It keeps going until it hits something. If the first creature dodges then another creature behind it may get hit.

The downside is that this applies to allies as well.

[Roughishguy86]

its not the damage thats awesome its the effect of being blinded by thousands of glass particles being blasted into you eyeball.

[Gastronomie]

its not the damage thats awesome its the effect of being blinded by thousands of glass particles being blasted into you eyeball.Well that admittedly is creative. I'd allow it as a DM. Some ******s wouldn't.

But even in my case I'd say that a successful DEX save will allow the guy to also protect his eyes (succeeding in the save means the target was able to dodge the pouch, so...). And it really does depend on the DM.

At Level 2 there's "Blindness/Deafness" as a spell so I dunno if you can call it awesome, just, it is a nice idea.

[Coffee_Dragon]

its not the damage thats awesome its the effect of being blinded by thousands of glass particles being blasted into you eyeball.

For 3d8 damage and no status effect.

(If you failed the save.)

[R.Shackleford]

Well that admittedly is creative. I'd allow it as a DM. Some ******s wouldn't.

But even in my case I'd say that a successful DEX save will allow the guy to also protect his eyes (succeeding in the save means the target was able to dodge the pouch, so...). And it really does depend on the DM.

At Level 2 there's "Blindness/Deafness" as a spell so I dunno if you can call it awesome, just, it is a nice idea.

This would be better than the Level 2 spell. Not only would it permanently blind a creature (until healed) but you get to use one spell slot to attempt to effect multiple targets.

I would say that the bag of glass would hit in the chest and then in that space a glass would fall out of the bag.

If a target is barefoot it would work like caltrops.

Which now I want to use this spell in conjuction with a bag of caltrops.

[Tanarii]

I would say that the bag of glass would hit in the chest and then in that space a glass would fall out of the bag.
Why would the glass fall out? A pouch isn't paper. It's cloth or leather. Or are you assuming full to the brim, and open (ie not tied shut)?

That's also why sending a pouch of glass into a target wouldn't have any more special effect than sending a pouch of rocks. Less effective even. You're not sending a bunch of shards into their face, you're sending a container with shards in.

[Roughishguy86]

my thought process and how it worked in the game i saw it used was that when the pouch full of crushed glass struck the target the pouch took the full damage of the contact with the target. essentially obliterating the bag causing what was essentially a cloud of glass dust to erupt in that particular npcs face thus causing glass particles to end up in the npcs eyes nose and mouth anyone who has worked in a glass factory which i have will tell you that getting the dust from glass in your eyes is pretty terrible for ones eyesight..

(Thus staus effect)

Although i could see how some of you on the internet who live by the if it don't say it in the book it just ain't right could take this as completely useless. However the groups i tend too play with put alot of stock into the whole fantasy part of these games.

[Tanarii]

So your thought was that crushed glass (ie not even shards) would on impact somehow obliterate a cloth or leather pouch?

clearly the real issue here is us internet folks are living by too strict a reading of the book.

[wunderkid]

In itself it's alright, what you're basically doing is giving a spell more power than it has been balanced to have. This doesn't seem to be something that will drastically imbalance the game however. Just keep an eye out for people getting cute with the same logic for throwing/launching anything. A fighter could argue he has 4 pouches, he throws them for 1d4+str each and can now inflict blind at will on 4 different targets.

And Lord help everyone once you start discovering substances more dangerous and potent than crushed glass xD

Basically I don't think I'd have an issue with it. It feels a bit munchkiny, I think if a player turned around and made a load of glass skulls where the brain space was filled with crushed glass I'd be a lot more inclined to go with the rule of cool as it wouldn't feel like power gaming and more like a funky idea.

[Roughishguy86]

No i was going off the thought process that i don't think a bag has more hit points then your average commoner therefore the damage caused by the spell flinging the bag would cause it too be destroyed(not the contents of the bag). But you know maybe thats just how the table i was at figured it for that particular situation. I wasn't even playing at the table just observing.

I could see it getting out of hand quickly so i see how it would seem a bit sketchy too allow it.

However it's also particularly funny too see it done in game and watch the wizard essentially render that particular pirate completely useless in combat(disadvantage).

Not game breaking but was kinda cool.

Edit( I can't type)

[R.Shackleford]

No i was going off the thought process that i don't think a bag has more hit points then your average commoner therefore the damage caused by the spell flinging the bag would cause it too be destroyed(not the contents of the bag). But you know maybe thats just how the table i was at figured it for that particular situation. I wasn't even playing at the table just observing.

I could see it getting out of hand quickly so i see how it would seem a bit sketchy too allow it.

However it's also particularly funny too see it done in game and watch the wizard essentially render that particular pirate completely useless in combat(disadvantage).

Not game breaking but was kinda cool.

Edit( I can't type)

It is game breaking in the sense you are giving a level one spell huge range and a save or suck (save or die really). Not only is it more powerful than a level 2 spell, it is potentially more powerful than a lot of higher level spells.

Wizards already gain spells that can render creatures useless. The difference here is that these spells aren't permanent until higher levels.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The thing about all of these "spell X says it achieves result X1 through effect Y so by some real-world logic I should be able to make it achieve much more powerful effect X2 the same way" threads is that if that were the case, it would work the same for all, X2 would be the de facto effect of the spell, and the powers that mysteriously assign levels to spells by judging their effects would already have placed it on a higher level.

In the end it's more convenient to "live by the book" than to "creatively" rebalance the game during play in some kind of real-world logic x magic combo arms race.

[R.Shackleford]

The thing about all of these "spell X says it achieves result X1 through effect Y so by some real-world logic I should be able to make it achieve much more powerful effect X2 the same way" threads is that if that were the case, it would work the same for all, X2 would be the de facto effect of the spell, and the powers that mysteriously assign levels to spells by judging their effects would already have placed it on a higher level.

In the end it's more convenient to "live by the book" than to "creatively" rebalance the game during play in some kind of real-world logic x magic combo arms race.

I've always seen it, as a player and DM, that this is one of the rudest things a player can try to pull.

Its one thing to ask "hey will this happen" it's another thing to attempt to make a level 1 spell into a super spell because of real world logic.

[Belac93]

I would just do this with alchemists fire instead. Wouldn't blind them, but doesn't rely on a nice DM as much.

[PoeticDwarf]

This is like saying burning hands could "blind enemies because there eyes burn down"

[Elbeyon]

I'm seeing some real potential here. Forget the spell. It doing anything outside of what it says on the page will get argued to death.

Pick up the bag, designed for discharge if it must be that way, and... throw it. Boom! Nuh said. Throwing it via hand/ or some type of device used to throw things shouldn't be a problem. Magically throwing it may be too much for people.

[Coffee_Dragon]

And this will be great fun when it's done to the party.

[R.Shackleford]

And this will be great fun when it's done to the party.

Even better when the mage tries to use the spell like that, misses the enemy, the bag keeps going and hits an ally.

[Elbeyon]

And this will be great fun when it's done to the party.Depends on the party, dm and the world I'd say. I mean a bag of glass (any eye irritant really) could be ruled so many ways. Improvised weapons have a throw range of 20/60. It might be able to made into some type of sling pouch. So, that's pretty good range. Now, it could be single target or if we're getting really crazy with the big bag an AoE. It may or may not require an attack roll. Maybe an attack roll against the ground. The result would probably be some damage (glass hurts yo). And, a chance for blinding. The blinding would probably be permanent. Now, we could probably make some cheap eyeware to prevent this. Maybe the super cheap version gives disadvantage on perception checks. Maybe the better version is only a bonus. Not bad. Really, everyone should wear eye protection in such a dangerous world where people fight dirty.

[Tanarii]

Really, everyone should wear eye protection in such a dangerous world where people fight dirty.
Makes me think of WWI soldiers in gas masks for some reason.

[wunderkid]

Oh yeah I equip every character with my standard zombie survival loadout:
Goggles, respirator, flashlight, crowbar, hunting knife, rope, flint, water purification tablets, duct tape then enough rations to keep you going without weighing you down and most importantly a mirror on a stick.

Obviously for a fantasy game the respirator, flashlight, tablets and duct tape will be replaced with old school versions if available. But it's a load out that's served me well.

[Tanarii]

Sounds like the way I kit out for BECMI games :)

[Foxhound438]

This would be better than the Level 2 spell. Not only would it permanently blind a creature (until healed) but you get to use one spell slot to attempt to effect multiple targets.

I would say that the bag of glass would hit in the chest and then in that space a glass would fall out of the bag.

If a target is barefoot it would work like caltrops.

Which now I want to use this spell in conjuction with a bag of caltrops.

Pretty much any of the items in the PHB equipment section could be fun for this, among other things. Launch a basket filled with [x], it smashes to pieces on impact, [x] is deployed as a result. Alchemist's fire. Acid vial. Holy water. Find a bee's nest. A lot of ways to do creative things with this.

And, as always with this spell, it's a resource expended to gain marginally better action economy. You could have, no spell required, lobbed any of those things with a sling or shovel, or even by hand.

As for the glass shards, from a game perspective i'd say they're blinded on a failed dex save (post being hit, ie. 2 saves), and if they fail they get a con save every turn to attempt to ignore the pain, ending the blindness on a success. Give them an option to use an action to flush their eyes if they have water. It doesn't have to be purely realistic even, you can reward players' creativeness without breaking your game for them.