A proposal for Contagion.

[Gtdead]

I'd like your opinion on this change.

The vanilla version of contagion is way overpowered.
The sage advice "fix" is idiotic because it completely kills the spell.
I was thinking of taking the middle way.

You make a melee spell attack - Success
Now the target rolls a con save. If he fails, the effects apply for this turn. If he succeeds, they don't.
This happens for the few next turns till he either fails 3 saves and it stays for the duration, or he succeeds.

I'm not very sure how to deal with slimy doom's con save disadvantage. I think it should go. The stun effect is very strong anyway.

What do you think?

[jas61292]

I'd like your opinion on this change.

The vanilla version of contagion is way overpowered.
The sage advice "fix" is idiotic because it completely kills the spell.
I was thinking of taking the middle way.

You make a melee spell attack - Success
Now the target rolls a con save. If he fails, the effects apply for this turn. If he succeeds, they don't.
This happens for the few next turns till he either fails 3 saves and it stays for the duration, or he succeeds.

I'm not very sure how to deal with slimy doom's con save disadvantage. I think it should go. The stun effect is very strong anyway.

What do you think?

The sage advice fix make so much sense. Contagion, and disease in general, is simply not a combat thing. That doesn't make it stupid or kill the spell. Diseases can destroy entire towns and villages, and can, if used secretly, completely incapacitate an opponent. The fact that you can't use it in combat as a save-or-lose spell (or a no save, just lose, like it would be if you don't play it RAI) is a feature, not a bug.

[Gtdead]

The sage advice fix make so much sense. Contagion, and disease in general, is simply not a combat thing. That doesn't make it stupid or kill the spell. Diseases can destroy entire towns and villages, and can, if used secretly, completely incapacitate an opponent. The fact that you can't use it in combat as a save-or-lose spell (or a no save, just lose, like it would be if you don't play it RAI) is a feature, not a bug.

Well, the spell can't do any of that unless a DM says that it does. It may be called Contagion but the disease isn't contagious. The effects aren't lethal so no one can die from it outside of combat. Also it can't be used secretly because it requires a touch, a verbal component, and it can't be used to contaminate anything other than a living creature.

I don't see that "sense" you are talking about. There is nothing to suggest that this spell can be used in any out of combat situation. If you as a DM, are going to allow stunts with this spell, be my guest. It's not like any ruling about how it actually works is going to change that.

[jas61292]

Well, the spell can't do any of that unless a DM says that it does. It may be called Contagion but the disease isn't contagious.

Uh... unless you are saying diseases are not contagious, then this is. It explicitly says it is a natural disease, not a magical one. Sure, a DM could say it never spreads, but that is DM fiat just as much, if not more, than them saying it does spread.

As far as it destroying a town or village, it may not do direct damage and kill anyone, but can severely incapacitate people, causing major trouble, possibly disrupting every day life. The exact effects depend on a lot of things, but it could cause food shortages as people are unable to work, and other devastating things.

I will give you that it is hard to do secretly, though if you are sneaky enough you could certainly cast it on someone who is sleeping.

[Gtdead]

Uh... unless you are saying diseases are not contagious, then this is. It explicitly says it is a natural disease, not a magical one. Sure, a DM could say it never spreads, but that is DM fiat just as much, if not more, than them saying it does spread.

As far as it destroying a town or village, it may not do direct damage and kill anyone, but can severely incapacitate people, causing major trouble, possibly disrupting every day life. The exact effects depend on a lot of things, but it could cause food shortages as people are unable to work, and other devastating things.

I will give you that it is hard to do secretly, though if you are sneaky enough you could certainly cast it on someone who is sleeping.

I'm trying to avoid using common sense and real world science when it comes to interpreting D&D rules and features. The spell may say that it's a natural disease, but this doesn't mean anything at all since there is no entry about it. I haven't found a single thing about "natural diseases" in both PHB and DMG. In fact DMG says that any disease that does more than require a few casts of lesser restoration is probably a plot device.

In that context, using contagion to start an epidemic is a stunt.

From there on, it just gets comical. Take flesh rot for example. How would an epidemic of flesh rot work? All the villagers would look like ass but they would be able to go on about their lives without any problem at all. Or how would bleeding uncontrollably for 7 days would work exactly? I mean if the blood lose is enough to induce an incapacitating effect everytime you hurt yourself, then it's more than serious.. and this sentece doesn't make much sense.

[Sigreid]

So, I'm apparently the odd man out on this, but even on my first reading in the PHB I understood the spell to on 3 failed saving throws create a horrible natural disease in the target, with no affect until that third throw was failed. It has always appeared to me that it's purpose was to quietly infect someone and let them spread a plague through the land and such.

Really, it's a special purpose spell that has no real value in most situations or to most casters.

[PoeticDwarf]

I agree with Gtdead

If it was infectious it would be fun. Now it's not