Experiences with the Blood Hunter

[ZenBear]

I recently started up a game and one of the players is joining late. He'll be coming in at level 2 and wants to play a Blood Hunter (http://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Blood-Hunter-Class-1.2.pdf). Does anybody have any experiences with this class in your party or as your character? How does it stack up to other classes? What role does it fulfill in a party? Any fun anecdotes?

[Giant2005]

I haven't played as one but I have played alongside one.
He is noticeably more powerful than everyone else - he tends to pull about 2-3x the damage of the Barbarian. As for the role in the group, this prpbably has more to do with the player than the class but the best I could describe it as would be "schoolyard bully". He knows he is considerably stronger than everyone else and he knows that everyone else knows that he is much stronger than them. He uses the awareness of that knowledge to passively threaten us into doing his bidding.

[DersitePhantom]

I haven't played as one but I have played alongside one.
He is noticeably more powerful than everyone else - he tends to pull about 2-3x the damage of the Barbarian. As for the role in the group, this prpbably has more to do with the player than the class but the best I could describe it as would be "schoolyard bully". He knows he is considerably stronger than everyone else and he knows that everyone else knows that he is much stronger than them. He uses the awareness of that knowledge to passively threaten us into doing his bidding.

Is that the latest version? I know previous versions of the class had extreme balance issues, but Mercer updated the class a few times in response to criticism and the most recent version seemed much more reasonable.

[Giant2005]

Is that the latest version? I know previous versions of the class had extreme balance issues, but Mercer updated the class a few times in response to criticism and the most recent version seemed much more reasonable.

There have been plenty of revisions, but as far as I can tell none of the balance concerns have been addressed in any of them.

[Jarlhen]

They get a lot of stuff. But don't mistake that as being OP. If a blood hunter is running the game that's on account of the rest of the players having no idea or inclination of how to make a good character. Don't get me wrong, the BH is strong. If there were tiers it would definitely be up there with the other most powerful classes. But it's not unbalanced, it's just a lot. A profane order blood hunter, for instance, has a lot of strengths similar to someone who multiclassed into warlock but without having to actually multiclass plus the eldritch knight's cantrip+attack ability. That's certainly not unbalanced, but it's also pretty strong. That's the whole thing though, it gets so much stuff that it can't help but be very strong. I'm not sure how multiclassing would impact it, that might make it unbalanced. But the class in itself is very strong, gets a lot of stuff, but virtually all of it can easily be accomplished in other ways. Assuming you allow multiclassing and feats the blood hunter will not be unbalanced by comparison, but it will be very strong.

[Giant2005]

Don't get me wrong, the BH is strong. If there were tiers it would definitely be up there with the other most powerful classes.
If such a tier system existed and it was a measurement of power, then the BH wouldn't be up there with the other classes, it would be 3 or 4 levels higher than the second class on the ladder.
When it comes to damage, a level 20 Frenzying, Raging, Reckless Attacking Barbarian comes out as top dog in canon. A level 20 BH (Order of the Mutant) literally pulls off more than twice the DPR of the Barbarian. Obviously that is an increase of power that isn't properly captured by being only a single rung higher on the food chain.
The worst part is that the BH isn't even operating at peak efficiency when it is over-doubling the DPR of the Barbarian. That damage is under the assumption of the quantifiable Blood Curse of the Marked, not the incredibly broken and infinitely more powerful "it doesn't matter what I fight, nothing can possibly surpass me with this ability in use" ability known as: Blood Curse of Mutual Suffering.


But it's not unbalanced, it's just a lot.

I guess that is a matter of opinion, but when one person is twice as powerful as another, then I'd call that an imbalance.

EDIT: It turns out I misremembered. It isn't twice the DPR of the former top dog of DPR, it is +43.22%
Here is what I am referring to:

Take this simple build: Barbarian 2/ Blood Hunter (Order of the Mutant) 18, with 20 base Str, a Greatsword, using Crimson Rite, Blood Curse of the Marked (Mutual Suffering is clearly better but harder to quantify in such comparisons), Rage, Reckless Attack, and the following Mutagens: Cruelty, Potency, and Precision.
Against AC 18, all of that will inflict 105.12 DPR on average, without using any feats.

The top dog of damage in a non-homebrew game is the level 20 Berserker Barbarian with 24 Str, a Greataxe, using Rage, Frenzy, Reckless Attack and Great Weapon Master.
Against AC 18, all of that will inflict 73.4 DPR on average, at the cost of 1 feat and a level of exhaustion.

Just for the sake of establishing a baseline that isn't the munchkinned out Barbarian, a level 20, max Cha Warlock using EB (With AB) on a Hexed foe with 18 AC, inflicts 41 DPR.

EDIT2: It turns out I was wrong, and the most recent version (1.7) has toned down most of the more broken abilities.

[Kryx]

When I compared the initial witch hunter class' DPR in my DPR of Classes it was no where near top tier.

I doubt it has changed enough to be absolute top tier..

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Take this simple build: Barbarian 2/ Blood Hunter (Order of the Mutant) 18, with 20 base Str, a Greatsword, using Crimson Rite, Blood Curse of the Marked (Mutual Suffering is clearly better but harder to quantify in such comparisons), Rage, Reckless Attack, and the following Mutagens: Cruelty, Potency, and Precision.
Against AC 18, all of that will inflict 105.12 DPR on average, without using any feats.

The top dog of damage in a non-homebrew game is the level 20 Berserker Barbarian with 24 Str, a Greataxe, using Rage, Frenzy, Reckless Attack and Great Weapon Master.
Against AC 18, all of that will inflict 73.4 DPR on average, at the cost of 1 feat and a level of exhaustion.

Just for the sake of establishing a baseline that isn't the munchkinned out Barbarian, a level 20, max Cha Warlock using EB (With AB) on a Hexed foe with 18 AC, inflicts 41 DPR.

That's a new definition of 'top dog' not previously known to me. Off the top of my head, a wizard (or any other non-cleric full caster) can do better just polymorphing into a pit fiend - 87.95 excluding the poison (because I have no idea how to incorporate it into the maths, though I imagine it's significant), by my reckoning, and that's without even trying. If the caster is using Shapechange rather than True Polymorph, they will also retain their class features. If, for example, we make our caster a Bladesinger 20, naturally using his signature ability, Song of Victory (assuming an intelligence of 20) brings the DPR up to 104.95, again excluding the poison. If we assume that the poison contributes even 0.17 DPR (which I think we can), the Wizard easily matches the Blood Hunter.

Do note that Mutual Suffering, while undeniably effective, works only against a single attack, only against a weapon attack, and has a range of only 30 feet. Many opponents can easily bypass it, for example by staying at ranged or attacking with spells, or minimize it by leading with a relatively weak attack.

The Blood Hunter is certainly a powerful class, with an exceedingly good capstone ability. But it can be challenged by other classes in DPR, its defences and utility are at most middling, and many of its most powerful abilities demand self-harm - your example Hunter will have sacrificed 20hp and 5 dexterity, while suffering from halved healing and disadvantage on saving throws. He would be easy prey for a simple Evard's Black Tentacles, for example.

@OP: I'm currently in a game with a Blood Hunter, though I'm not sure how helpful my experiences may be, as the Hunter was introduced at 20th level, but she is far from overshadowing the rest of the party (a Warlock 20 and my Paladin 2/Abjurer-with-extra-attack-instead-of-shared-ward 18). If anything, it's the opposite.

[Jarlhen]

In addition to the above, blood curse of the marked lasts only 4 rounds, implying you're trying to nova. And if we're trying to nova then there are far more powerful builds than this, using no features and just class abilities. Specially with multiclassing in mind.

[Giant2005]

Do note that Mutual Suffering, while undeniably effective, works only against a single attack, only against a weapon attack, and has a range of only 30 feet.

Yeah, it does turn out that there is a newer version than what I was basing everything on. My bad.
The 1.7 version (no idea why he finally decided to try and balance the class after ignoring any and all balance concerns for the previous 7 versions) reduces basically all of the most OP abilities, bringing it in line with a Paladin in effectiveness.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Yeah, it does turn out that there is a newer version than what I was basing everything on. My bad.
The 1.7 version (no idea why he finally decided to try and balance the class after ignoring any and all balance concerns for the previous 7 versions) reduces basically all of the most OP abilities, bringing it in line with a Paladin in effectiveness.

Fair enough, chasing after changes and errata is hard enough when you're dealing with something official, let alone homebrew.

[Kane0]

I'm playing a game with a DM modified version of the old witch hunter version in the party. He's no optimizer but hes about as good as a paladin.
Hes a ghost slayer with a glaive plus mage hunter and observant feats, level 9

[AmbientRaven]

Does any one have a link to 1.7? I am struggling to find it

[Sigreid]

Just read the link in the OP post. There's no way I would let that into my campaign just based on it getting the advantage of 2 fighting styles for free at first level and it gets worse from there.

[ZenBear]

Just read the link in the OP post. There's no way I would let that into my campaign just based on it getting the advantage of 2 fighting styles for free at first level and it gets worse from there.

What are you talking about 2 fighting styles at lvl 1? They get 1 at lvl 2.

I'm a bit surprised my DM greenlit this. It does seem quite powerful, but as others have pointed out so is the Paladin.

[Kryx]

version 1.7 on DMs guild (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170777/Blood-Hunter-Class)

[Jarlhen]

There is a lot of inspiration coming from the Eldritch Knight and the Paladin. The BH certainly doesn't eclipse the Paladin. However, what it does it is mix and match so many things from so many classes. For instance, I play Profane Order. So I get warlock spells, I get fighting style, I get the level 11 paladin extra damage on each hit, I get the EK ability to use a cantrip an a bonus attack, then in addition I get a couple of extra spells from my patron, and the blood maledictions. It becomes a lot of stuff. Does it become more than paladin? Not really, but it becomes stuff from all over the board. It certainly looks a lot worse than it is. As far as damage is concerned in my group I'm the most consistent. Assuming I blow a spell slot and HP I'll get 2d6 extra damage on every attack. I run polearm master which means 3 attacks at 1d10+str+hex+rite. On the other hand I have 0 nova capabilities at the time being. If I had grabbed ranged and gone down the road of crossbow master/sharpshooter or such I think I would have pumped out more. I don't know if GWM would take over on account of my ability to use cantrips and a bonus attack. Thing is I have no reliable way of giving myself advantage I think.

Anyways, point is, I'm extremely reliable and I think with multiclassing I might run off a bit. Not sure. It's a strong class for sure. But I maintain it's not over performing.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

What are you talking about 2 fighting styles at lvl 1? They get 1 at lvl 2.

I'm a bit surprised my DM greenlit this. It does seem quite powerful, but as others have pointed out so is the Paladin.

I think he might also be referring to an earlier version. v1.7 (the one on the DM's Guild, I believe) is pretty balanced, but the ones before it are... problematic.

Edit: Though on closer examination I can't see 2 fighting styles on 1.2 either.

[Lolzyking]

this class just seems to be doing to many things at once. It feels imbalanced because of this.

to be fair if the rest of your table isn't using homebrew that makes them equal to this, it probably be best to ban it.

This class will simultaneously outshine a fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger or warlock.

I mean if he's determined to play homebrew, atleast middle finger of vecna's subclasses are balanced.

[Douche]

the 1.2 version is broken if you pick Order of the Ghost Hunter (what I'm currently playing). The version they have on the DM guild website is a little better, but I think they nerfed it too hard so I kept the 1.2 version.

I play a hand-crossbow with crossbow expert. Using your crimson rite has you adding +wis in radiant damage, in addition to your dex mod.

I have +3 dex, +3 wis. That's +6 damage to each of your attacks. With crossbow expert at level 5, that's +18 damage if all 3 of your attacks hit, in addition to 2d6 for each attack.


It's pretty awesome, tbh. I dig it, yo

[Vogonjeltz]

I recently started up a game and one of the players is joining late. He'll be coming in at level 2 and wants to play a Blood Hunter. Does anybody have any experiences with this class in your party or as your character? How does it stack up to other classes? What role does it fulfill in a party? Any fun anecdotes?

I find that I've never seen a reasonably balanced bit of homebrew, so my gut reaction would be no. If I felt like doing the legwork, I'd do a reverse engineering on it to see what the equivalencies are for it and actually determine if it's balanced at all.

If you're unsure, and don't want to expend the time and energy to spot check it, I'd ask your players how they feel about it as they might not want to play along with a character using a homebrewed class. If they say no, say no.

[RaynorReynolds]

this class just seems to be doing to many things at once. It feels imbalanced because of this.

to be fair if the rest of your table isn't using homebrew that makes them equal to this, it probably be best to ban it.

This class will simultaneously outshine a fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger or warlock.

I mean if he's determined to play homebrew, atleast middle finger of vecna's subclasses are balanced.

Can you provide stats to back up your opinion?

[Amdy_vill]

I recently started up a game and one of the players is joining late. He'll be coming in at level 2 and wants to play a Blood Hunter (http://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Blood-Hunter-Class-1.2.pdf). Does anybody have any experiences with this class in your party or as your character? How does it stack up to other classes? What role does it fulfill in a party? Any fun anecdotes?

i have no play experience for the class but from what i have read it seems they are a smithy paladin replacement as there damage rangers seem to but up there with paladins but some of there sub classes seem to move away form this. but have not seen one play so this is all off of the reading and knowledge.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I played a Ghosthunter archetype BloodHunter in Curse of Strahd last year. I think it would have been v1.7? It was prior to the class getting Shield Proficiency; that's pretty much the biggest change I've seen since then. (And might have changed my choice of build, but never mind that now...)

I went with two weapon fighting, and MC into Ranger after level 8. CoS ended at level 10, so I only ever got the WIS bonus to damage against undead, not everything we fought. The DM OK'd me to use the revised Ranger, so I also got a damage bonus against my favored enemy: undead. And yes, against undead, I cranked out massive amounts of damage. The character could have been optimized better, but I had three attacks/round at 3d6+9 using both Rite of the Dawn and Hunter's Mark. The other members of the party were: A Bardbarian grappling specialist (Athletics Expertise), a Vengeance Paladin, a Moon Druid, and a Light Cleric. Powerful as I was, I actually had a hard time keeping up with them in combat. I was somewhat over-specialized; if we weren't fighting undead, I tended to lag behind them.

A few notes on balance:

1) It takes three bonus actions to put Crimson Rite on two weapons and cast Hunter's Mark. In most combats, that will not happen.

2) Each use of Rite of the Dawn lowers max HP by character level. (NOT Blood Hunter class level.) So 20 HP gone to use it on both weapons at level 10. (No healing allowed.)

3) Due to #2 the Blood Hunter class is not friendly to Multi-classing. The cost of using Crimson Rites keeps going up, but the damage bonus doesn't. Be careful.

4) I took the Tough feat at 8th level to mitigate the effects of Crimson Rites; most others took a stat boost. That put me "behind the curve" on stats relative to the others.

5) This class is all kinds of MAD; you need either STR or DEX for melee (I chose DEX), CON for HP (LOTS OF HP!!!), and WIS for Blood Curses. It also has Int and Cha-based skills, plus a minor Cha-based class ability that comes online around level 11, IIRC. I dumped STR and INT, put a few points in CHA, but there's only so much you can do.

Overall, I found the class somewhat difficult to play due to the risk/reward mechanic and its inherently MAD nature. Nobody at my table considered the character overpowered, probably because I was playing with a group who optimized their characters a bit better than I did. I'd recommend the Blood Hunter for Curse of Strahd, particularly the Ghosthunter Archetype. Order of the Profane Soul and Order of the Lycan are also interesting. (IMHO, Order of the Mutant is kind of a mess and needs some cleaning up.) In the end, I enjoyed playing this class and my DM had no issues with it.