[3.5] Help With A Construct

[Thurbane]

So, for whatever reason, I have a medium sized stone statue that resembles a specific individual.

I want to turn this statue to flesh, animate it, and then cast either Incarnate Construct or Awaken Construct on it.

The stumbling block seems to be Animate Object - even if made permanent, this seems to disqualify it from Awaken Construct and Incarnate Construct.

Is there a way around this, or am I misreading anything?

Cheers - T

[Venger]

Does it need to be organic, or just look that way? you could use animate object then disguise magic on it.

[soldersbushwack]

So you want to make a flesh golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#fleshGolem)?

[Thurbane]

Does it need to be organic, or just look that way? you could use animate object then disguise magic on it.

That's an option, but I'd prefer it to be flesh if possible. It also needs to be sentient in the end.


So you want to make a flesh golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#fleshGolem)?

If there was a medium flesh golem that is first created as a stone statue, then yes.

[Tiri]

The stumbling block seems to be Animate Object - even if made permanent, this seems to disqualify it from Awaken Construct and Incarnate Construct.

Is there a way around this, or am I misreading anything?

Cheers - T

The reason stated for Animate Object not working in the spell description is its temporary nature. If you permanencied it, it would no longer be temporary, allowing you to cast both of those spells.

[unseenmage]

What they said, and remember that Incarnate Construct makes it flesh at the end of the process regardless. Said flesh just has the cosmetic apppearance of stone.

Oh and the spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species is already permanent Animate Objects, the thing is just free-willed (as too it will be after Incarnate Construct).

[ShurikVch]

Alternately, if you take a large stone weapon, add morphing SA, make it intelligent (which turn it into Construct), then order it to take form of Improvised Weapon (stone statue) - now you can Awaken or Incarnate it

[unseenmage]

Alternately, if you take a large stone weapon, add morphing SA, make it intelligent (which turn it into Construct), then order it to take form of Improvised Weapon (stone statue) - now you can Awaken or Incarnate it

The Flying weapon enhancement from one of the Faerun splats lets the enchanted weapon become an animated object too if that helps.

[Thurbane]

The reason stated for Animate Object not working in the spell description is its temporary nature. If you permanencied it, it would no longer be temporary, allowing you to cast both of those spells.

Is this correct? I've specifically seen people call out before that this does not work due to the wording in Awaken Construct.

On an related note, what are the stats of an (un-awakened) Effigy Creature Human?

[Gildedragon]

Is this correct? I've specifically seen people call out before that this does not work due to the wording in Awaken Construct.

On an related note, what are the stats of an (un-awakened) Effigy Creature Human?

14 Str, 8 Dex, - Con, - Int, 11 Wis, 1 Cha

[Tiri]

Is this correct? I've specifically seen people call out before that this does not work due to the wording in Awaken Construct.

On an related note, what are the stats of an (un-awakened) Effigy Creature Human?

It gives Animate Objects as an example because it normally makes objects into constructs temporarily. However, with Permanency, they are constructs permanently, and therefore valid targets of the spell.

[DrMotives]

It gives Animate Objects as an example because it normally makes objects into constructs temporarily. However, with Permanency, they are constructs permanently, and therefore valid targets of the spell.

I can see some DMs argueing against this, but pretty much this. Also, as Awaken Construct has a duration of "instantaneous" once the construct is awakened there's no dispel or disjunction to remove it. I would rule the Awakening removes the Animate & Permance effects and replaces them with the new Awakened state. Same with Incarnate.

[Tiri]

I can see some DMs argueing against this, but pretty much this. Also, as Awaken Construct has a duration of "instantaneous" once the construct is awakened there's no dispel or disjunction to remove it. I would rule the Awakening removes the Animate & Permance effects and replaces them with the new Awakened state. Same with Incarnate.

Well, by RAW I think Awaken wouldn't remove the pre-existing effects, but Incarnate would, or at least make them have no real effect.

[unseenmage]

Well, by RAW I think Awaken wouldn't remove the pre-existing effects, but Incarnate would, or at least make them have no real effect.

Last time I was chewing through this bit of RAW we concluded that there's no RAW reason that the Dispel-able quality of an Animated Object / Minor Servitor which has been Incarnate Construct-ed would go away.

That said being Dispel-ed would only get rid of the non-Instantaneous effects leaving the Incarnate or Awakened construct as those spells left it.

The magic only does what it does after all.

[Tiri]

That said being Dispel-ed would only get rid of the non-Instantaneous effects leaving the Incarnate or Awakened construct as those spells left it.

I'm a little confused at what you mean. Could you explain?

[Ruethgar]

Meaning if you dispelled a permanent animate objects from an Incarnate Construct Permanent Animated Object it would lose any overlap that the Incarnate Construct did not cover.

At a quick glance, the most notable alteration would be the ability scores. Dispelling Animate Objects makes Str, Dex, Cha, Wis null values and because Incarnate was instantaneous, it does not retroactively roll those as you would notabilities(if null abilities could even be considered nonabilities).

[Gildedragon]

Meaning if you dispelled a permanent animate objects from an Incarnate Construct Permanent Animated Object it would lose any overlap that the Incarnate Construct did not cover.

At a quick glance, the most notable alteration would be the ability scores. Dispelling Animate Objects makes Str, Dex, Cha, Wis null values and because Incarnate was instantaneous, it does not retroactively roll those as you would notabilities(if null abilities could even be considered nonabilities).

If Wis is set to - so would Cha be

[ILM]

I'm super annoyed by how they have all these spells to let you create free-willed intelligent creatures (various spells for undead, awaken construct, awaken, etc.) but next to no support for actually playing one. :smallfrown:

[Tiri]

Meaning if you dispelled a permanent animate objects from an Incarnate Construct Permanent Animated Object it would lose any overlap that the Incarnate Construct did not cover.

At a quick glance, the most notable alteration would be the ability scores. Dispelling Animate Objects makes Str, Dex, Cha, Wis null values and because Incarnate was instantaneous, it does not retroactively roll those as you would notabilities(if null abilities could even be considered nonabilities).

So the creature becomes an object again. Thanks for clarifying.


I'm super annoyed by how they have all these spells to let you create free-willed intelligent creatures (various spells for undead, awaken construct, awaken, etc.) but next to no support for actually playing one. :smallfrown:

Well, WotC doesn't seem to approve of people playing things that aren't in the PHB, the various race books or a campaign setting.

[Divide by Zero]

I'm super annoyed by how they have all these spells to let you create free-willed intelligent creatures (various spells for undead, awaken construct, awaken, etc.) but next to no support for actually playing one. :smallfrown:

The rules for playing monsters in 3.5 are basically "it's technically allowed, but it's frowned upon so we made it as inconvenient as possible." They pretty much gave up on the pretense entirely in 4E with the whole "NPCs use an entirely different format" thing.

[unseenmage]

I'm super annoyed by how they have all these spells to let you create free-willed intelligent creatures (various spells for undead, awaken construct, awaken, etc.) but next to no support for actually playing one. :smallfrown:

On that note, there's a list in my sig of feats specifically for minion monsters. Badically a list of feats with minimum prerequisites so theyre good choices for a variety of magically created monsters.

If they won't print us useful tools then we'll have to assemble our own. :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

An Urban Druid can take an Animated Object as his Urban Companion. Because it's an (Ex) ability gained independent of spells, it is not subject to antimagic fields, dispels, disjunctions, or even dead magic zones. It's quite permanent, and because it isn't created by an Animated Objects spell, both Awaken Construct and Incarnate Construct work just fine.

One could argue the construct is immediately destroyed if the urban druid releases it from service, but this is doubtful. Animal companions don't spontaneously cease to exist if their master releases them, and the construct is said to be 'spontaneously created', implying its existence is not dependent on the master.

To put it simply: all you have to do is make an urban druid of at least 4th-level (for medium-sized AO's) create the statue and release it, and afterwards you simply Awaken it.

If no urban druids are available, I believe a 1-level dip with Natural Bond should work too.

[Thurbane]

An Urban Druid can take an Animated Object as his Urban Companion. Because it's an (Ex) ability gained independent of spells, it is not subject to antimagic fields, dispels, disjunctions, or even dead magic zones. It's quite permanent, and because it isn't created by an Animated Objects spell, both Awaken Construct and Incarnate Construct work just fine.

One could argue the construct is immediately destroyed if the urban druid releases it from service, but this is doubtful. Animal companions don't spontaneously cease to exist if their master releases them, and the construct is said to be 'spontaneously created', implying its existence is not dependent on the master.

To put it simply: all you have to do is make an urban druid of at least 4th-level (for medium-sized AO's) create the statue and release it, and afterwards you simply Awaken it.

If no urban druids are available, I believe a 1-level dip with Natural Bond should work too.

Thats is quite ingenious, thank you!

[Ruethgar]

I'm super annoyed by how they have all these spells to let you create free-willed intelligent creatures (various spells for undead, awaken construct, awaken, etc.) but next to no support for actually playing one. :smallfrown:

This is mostly just a matter of fluff in my mind. Awakened Undead, Necropolitan with a cosmetic change covers the corporeal, Ghost(either version) refluffed can cover most incorporeal. Awakened Constructs are more of a challenge, for many things a refluffed Warforged can work well enough. Animated Objects are also playable but with insane ECL(5 minimum). Dark Sun has Life-Shaped creatures, a basic one can be seen here and can cover pretty much anything you can think of and are called out as being playable, but needs intimate work with the DM for balance purposes and ECL assignment(also requires alchemy to live making them rather fragile). Awakened Animals already have ECLs(for MMI 3.0 anyway) and both Hengeyokai and Tibbits are literally just magical animals and can remain in animal for indefinitely to cover that.

[ILM]

This is mostly just a matter of fluff in my mind. Awakened Undead, Necropolitan with a cosmetic change covers the corporeal, Ghost(either version) refluffed can cover most incorporeal. Awakened Constructs are more of a challenge, for many things a refluffed Warforged can work well enough. Animated Objects are also playable but with insane ECL(5 minimum). Dark Sun has Life-Shaped creatures, a basic one can be seen here and can cover pretty much anything you can think of and are called out as being playable, but needs intimate work with the DM for balance purposes and ECL assignment(also requires alchemy to live making them rather fragile). Awakened Animals already have ECLs(for MMI 3.0 anyway) and both Hengeyokai and Tibbits are literally just magical animals and can remain in animal for indefinitely to cover that.
Well, yes and no. I'm usually pretty liberal with the refluffing, but it doesn't really work for constructs. Necropolitan is cool: +0 LA, switch to undead, the end (mostly). Warforged is more involved, less flexible. There's feats reserved for warforged that other constructs can't take; classes too. A bunch of stuff that work on constructs don't on living constructs, and vice-versa. It's possible to refluff, sure, but it's just messier. They should just have made a template à la Cosmopolitan where you undergo a ritual or whatever and presto, you're a living construct. As a template, so you can still be an elf construct or human construct or pseudonatural draconic half-dragon half-fiend half-celestial construct.

Which, now that I've verbalized it like this, I don't see why I haven't already homebrewed.