5e -> 3.5 Crash Course!

[Toaau]

Hey GitPers! I'm going to an all-day D&D session in four days with some friends. All well and good with one problem: I thought it was 5e. It wasn't. It was 3.5. SO, now I've got four days to learn the difference between the two editions, with only you guys and a 3.5 PHB to help.

Notes-
-Seven people including the DM playing.
-Fair DM, not one to usually use tactics like going for the spellbook or targeting a single player.
-Starting L1, thank god.
-I've already decided to play an Elven BuffWizard, Sorcerer so if you're going to start talking Fighter or Barbarian, you WILL lose my attention. :wink:
-I'll add more FAQs here as they come.


Thanks in advance, guys!
-Toa.

[Waazraath]

They are not too different. Some stuff that could be important:

5e has 1 system to take care of all attack roles, saving throws, and ability/skill checks (1d20 + proficiency if proficient + ability modifier). 3e has three different systems for that.

Attacks: 1d20 + strength (not dex, unless you invest a feat) + Base attack bonus
Saves: only three, fortitude (con based) reflex (dex based) and will (wisdom based): 1d20 + ability modifier + saving throw score
Skills: 1d20 + ability modifier + skill ranks

Base attack bonus and saving throw scores are in the class tables, they are easy. Skills are more complicated. Depending on class and intelligence score, you get a number of skill points, with which you can buy 'ranks' in different skills. So it gives more customization, but it's also more work.

Also: 3.5 has much more balance issues. We can all give tips on what you can do, but the most important question is: what power level does your group play at, and up to what level will you play? Because if that's really low, it's no use to give you all high-op tips for wizards, cause it'll disrupt the game. Especially at the higher levels, things can get crazy with spells.


Hope this helps / is what you were looking for?

[Andezzar]

Buffcleric is probably easier to build than buffwizard. If you are interested in a party-friendly wizard, look at the A guide to wizards: playing a god (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570.0). Yes a well played wizard is generally much more powerfull than the best played fighter or barbarian, but the god wizard lets the muggles still feel important, not like the batman wizard (has all the tools in his belt to go solo).

[Troacctid]

The math is also very different because 3.5 doesn't have bounded accuracy. In 5e, it's very rare to find a creature with 20 or more AC, and static boosts to your attacks or AC are extremely scarce. In 3.5, your base attack bonus goes up at a comparatively breakneck rate, and your attack rolls can easily scale up like crazy. Meanwhile, AC values cover a much wider range, and even at low levels it can trivially climb higher than the highest AC possible in 5e. And that's not even getting started with skills. Plus, advantage isn't really a thing—everything just gives a bonus here or a penalty there.

If you're playing a caster, the biggest change that you're probably going to feel is that cantrips suck rocks. They're not usable at will and their damage is garbage. I hope you like crossbows, because when you run out of 1st level spells, you're going to be firing yours a lot. (If you want 5e-style cantrips, you need to take a reserve feat, found in the Complete Mage splatbook.) Also, you have to prepare each spell slot individually, so you need to plan ahead of time how many Fireballs you'll need to cast today instead of preparing Fireball and then just having it available for all your 3rd level spell slots.

On the upside, you get loads more higher-level spell slots, and spells in general are more powerful, so once you have some levels on your belt, you can sling better spells more often than your 5e counterparts.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're playing a caster, the biggest change that you're probably going to feel is that cantrips suck rocks.
Cantrips suck rocks for combat (except for Daze, which is a pretty good combat spell at low levels). However, they excel at utility.

If you feel obliged to cast a spell every round of combat, at low levels it helps to carry a bunch of scrolls around, or a wand of magic missile. Once you hit level four or five, you should be able to cast a non-cantrip every round with no worries.

Be sure to play a specialist wizard as they get more spells per day. If allowed, a focused specialist has even more than that.

[Andezzar]

Be sure to play a specialist wizard as they get more spells per day. If allowed, a focused specialist has even more than that.If you do not mind pointy ears the first elven wizard substitution level (RotW p. 157) might be interesting. You only get to prepare one extra spell of the highest level you can cast, but you do not have any forbidden school and you get to learn 3 spells per wizard level of any school.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Level 1? Spend your starting gold on an attack dog and max your ranks in handle animal. Be an Elf Generalist Wizard and take only utility spells. In combat spend your time shooting a crossbow or telling your dog to rip throats out. Out of combat you have your spells.

As far as differences between editions goes the answers are innumerable. Don't assume anything, and read the book in its entirety. Keep it on hand when you play. I assume your DM will have an understanding of the rules and will be able to answer most questions that come up during play.

[Fizban]

Combat in 3.5 is far, far more lethal than 5e. Where 5e has a blanket three strikes clause that means you can take 100 damage at 1hp and not die and dropping to 0 seems to be expected, in 3.5 you only go to -10hp and you can go there straight from full hit points. At exactly 0hp you can only take a single standard action, and doing so will make you drop to -1 (dying), at -1 or less you're unconscious and start losing another hit point each round until dead or stabilized. Without help, a character dropped into negative hp will almost certainly die in very short order (10% chance per round to stabilize, and you've got less than 10 rounds). Stabilizing a dying friend requires either healing magic or a DC 15 Heal skill check, and the skill check is both non-trivial at low levels and can make things worse if you botch it up. Furthermore, an unconscious creature can be coup de grace'd or just further damaged by attacks straight to their already negative hp total.

All this translates to what is often called the "russian roulette" of low levels: any foe can hit you, any hit can deal enough damage to drop you to negative, and dropping unconscious is a death sentence unless the rest of the party can save you. Even combat classes are likely to suffer a crit at least once before hitting 2nd level and be at risk of dropping in a single hit. If you've ever heard about cats vs commoners, this is it: housecats have 3 attacks per round for minimum 1 damage each, commoners have average 2.5 hp, it's all up to luck weather the commoner survives.

As has been mentioned, 3.5 doesn't let you use your best stats: barring special feats or abilities, all melee attacks and damage are str based, all ranged attacks are dex based and ranged damage is either str (for throwing weapons) or str (heavy composite bows) or no bonus. Spell attacks use the same rules: melee touch attacks use str, and ranged touch attacks use dex. Spells have a significant advantage in that they are usually touch attacks, which ignore armor, shields, and natural armor. At 1st level and/or against smaller/high dex foes it makes little difference, but big slow armored guys are easy to hit. However they do not add any ability scores to damage (again barring special abilities ex: Warmage).

In general, spells just work. While 5e has normal attack rolls or save negates on pretty much everything (and most offensive spells in 3.5 do have ranged touch/save half/save negates), it is entirely possible to play a caster that never rolls any dice themselves and there are many spells that don't allow any dice to be rolled period.

Resting mechanics: you sleep or you don't. There are no short rests (though some later classes have per encounter abilities) and often the only limited resources are hp and spells. If you burn all your spells in the first fight of the day you're empty for at least 9 hours and that's if you go straight back to bed. There are no extra "hit dice" for recovering hp: you get a few hp per night of rest, or hopefully use some magic instead.

Advantage/disadvantage has been mentioned, but in more detail: things like cover, going prone, flanking, or skill handicaps (like Tumbling or Balancing on ice) all give +/-, while darkness and fogs give % miss chances. This means that you can stack all sorts of good/bad stuff onto people and it all hurts/helps them, and you can't level the field just by getting one advantage to shrug it off.


It probably won't come up much if it's a one-day game, but speaking of starting gold: magic items are actually a thing in 3.5. Where 5e is supposed to be no-magic-items required, in 3.5 you should be finding them by 3rd or so and if you don't have a decent kit by 5th you're gonna start running into monsters that laugh at you. Magic items in general are far different from 5e: flat bonuses are not just more common but are essentially required, magic items are limited by body slot rather than attunement slots (meaning you can and will use a ton), and have standard prices.

Buying and selling items can still change drastically depending on who's running the game, but even if you can't buy so much as a scroll or potion, you're still a wizard. Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free at 1st level, which means with 12.5gp+1 xp and a day in town you can make a scroll of any 1st level spell you know. Having a few scrolls for spells you don't use every day frees up space in your prepared slots, and having the right emergency scroll in your pocket can save your butt.

Another 1st level/any level trick that could come in handy: you can co-operate on magic item creation. This means that you can use your Scribe Scroll feat to help the Cleric (or any other spellcaster) make scrolls: a few scrolls of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor (SpC) can make sure you don't have a bad fight and then spend the rest of the day empty on hp, praying the random encounter table doesn't get you (again at only 12.5gp+1xp+1 day per scroll).


Now let's see, 1st level buffwizard: the best buff by miles is Enlarge Person (it's easily good enough to be 2nd or higher), and it's also pretty much the only real buff at 1st unless you've got a Monk or someone's Animal Companion that would like a Mage Armor. There is Magic Weapon, but the bonus is small and compared to the reach+damage increase of Enlarge Person it's terrible. The standard offensive spell is Sleep which should be fairly familiar, and there's also Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness (Spell Compendium) if you're more confident in your ranged touch attack than you are about their saving throw.

[Telonius]

You can find the 3.5 SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/). It has *most* of the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG materials; as well as a bunch of optional things from Unearthed Arcana, Psionics, and Epic Levels.

(There are some proprietary things missing, like Wealth By Level tables, amount of XP needed to level up, and a few monsters like Beholders. Wizards of the Coast decided they weren't open game license, so they're not included. But for most things that you'd care about, it's a pretty good resource).

[ATHATH]

If you do not mind pointy ears the first elven wizard substitution level (RotW p. 157) might be interesting. You only get to prepare one extra spell of the highest level you can cast, but you do not have any forbidden school and you get to learn 3 spells per wizard level of any school.
If you decide to be an Elven Generalist, be a Domain Wizard as well.

If you take at least five levels of Wizard before you PrC out, take the Spontaneous Divination ACF. It's incredibly good, and doesn't even require you to specialize in Divination.

Uncanny Forethought lets you cast your INT modifier in spells per day spontaneously.

The Immediate Metamagic ACF/Variant (I can't recall which one it is) for the Conjurer lets you avoid a number of attacks (with Full-Attacks counting as one "attack" per day day equal to your INT modifier (minimum 1) by simply teleporting out of the way of them

A neat trick that you can pull is combining the Drow Wizard ACF (which doesn't actually require you to be a Drow; the book that it's in explicitly says this, IIRC) with the 10th level Planar Wizard substitution level (or the 1st level Aligned Spellcaster ACF, but that's a little bit shaky on the RAW side) and the Focused Specialist ACF, which gives you 2 extra spells per day that can be of any school. Combine them with the Chaotic Spell Recall feat for two more spells per day of any level, and swim in your piles of spells like Scrooge McDuck.

[Andezzar]

Please remind me where I can find the Domain Wizard and the Planar Wizard.

Where do you get that an abrupt jaunt (conjurer immediate magic) counts a Full Attack as one attack? It only lets you teleport 10 ft as an immediate action before the first attack. If you are still in the the "threatened" (quotes because it also works against ranged attacks) after the teleport the attacker can take any additional attacks for the Full Attack against you as well, and you can't use abrupt jaunt again because you only have one immediate action per round.

[DrMartin]

Combat in 3.5 is far, far more lethal than 5e. Where 5e has a blanket three strikes clause that means you can take 100 damage at 1hp and not die and dropping to 0 seems to be expected


(just wanted to point out that this is not necessarily true, if you take a lot of damage when you're on low hp you can very well be in instant-death territory, as 5e monsters tend to dish out a lot of damage)



[..] more relevant advice [...]


Seconding all the advice, particularly on scrolls. They are really cheap to make and greatly expand your capabilities.

One of the biggest differences as a caster though is that in 3.5 you will provoke attack of opportunity every time you cast a spell. So if you are in melee with a foe you will first have to take a 5 foot step (a special kind of movement that does not cause attacks of opportunity) to move away from them, or attempt to cast defensively. To do this you will need to roll a concentration check, a skill that casters pretty much have to spend their skill points on.

If you are otherwise damaged while casting a spell you will also have to roll a concentration check, or you lose the spell. Your opponents will have the chance to ready an action to attack you when you begin casting the spell, if they want to shut down your spellcasting.

The "other" concentration, (not the skill but the spell with duration:concentration) works in a completely different way: concentration spells in 3.5 are quite few, as most buffs have a duration usually based on character level and are "fire and forget". On the other hand when you do cast a spell that requires concentration you have to spend your action each round concentrating on it, and you cannot cast any other spell while you are concentrating on one.

Also, 3.5 does not have ritual spells. You have to memorize those and cast them using slots as every other spell.

A lot of other things are different. The two systems are quite similar when looked from afar, but the baatezu is in the detail

[DarkSoul]

While everyone else is breaking out Unearthed Arcana, Races of the Wild and all the other books you're likely not going to be worried about at the moment...

Get your PHB. Mark these pages:

Page 8: Ability Modifiers
Page 55: Wizard class description
Page 63: Skill list
Pages 69-70: The Concentration skill
Page 78: Knowledge skills
Page 82: Spellcraft
Page 140-141: Actions in Combat. The "Cast a spell" section on page 140 will be informative.

Those are the parts of the book most likely to be useful to you, from creating your character to knowing what it can and can't do (like provoking at attack of opportunity while wearing a nightgown and having fewer hit points than fingers).

[ATHATH]

Please remind me where I can find the Domain Wizard and the Planar Wizard.

Where do you get that an abrupt jaunt (conjurer immediate magic) counts a Full Attack as one attack? It only lets you teleport 10 ft as an immediate action before the first attack. If you are still in the the "threatened" (quotes because it also works against ranged attacks) after the teleport the attacker can take any additional attacks for the Full Attack against you as well, and you can't use abrupt jaunt again because you only have one immediate action per round.
I admit that I worded it poorly, but generally, it protects you from melee Full-Attacks and singular ranged attacks (there are some exceptions).

[ATHATH]

Please remind me where I can find the Domain Wizard and the Planar Wizard.

Where do you get that an abrupt jaunt (conjurer immediate magic) counts a Full Attack as one attack? It only lets you teleport 10 ft as an immediate action before the first attack. If you are still in the the "threatened" (quotes because it also works against ranged attacks) after the teleport the attacker can take any additional attacks for the Full Attack against you as well, and you can't use abrupt jaunt again because you only have one immediate action per round.
The Domain Wizard can be found in the online SRD, but the Planar Wizard requires the Planar Handbook.

[rrwoods]

Buffing as a wizard is a thing you can do, but I also recommend having some control spells in your repertoire. You want Grease at level 1, and keep an eye toward Glitterdust.

[ATHATH]

Color Spray is also excellent.

[Troacctid]

Cantrips suck rocks for combat (except for Daze, which is a pretty good combat spell at low levels). However, they excel at utility.

Most utility cantrips (Prestidigitation, Mending, etc.) are essentially unchanged from 5e except that they're not usable at will. Some of them are actually worse, like Ghost Sound, which only creates auditory illusions, where the 5e version can do visual illusions too. Other useful cantrips like Mold Earth were introduced in 5e and have no 3.5 analogue. Detect Magic is downgraded to a cantrip from a 1st level spell, but since it was a ritual, you could cast it at will anyway, so it's not like you were spending a lot of spell slots on it.

So yeah, I'd say they still stink in comparison.

[YossarianLives]

If you're willing to get clever, Mount is one of the most powerful 1st level spells in the players handbook.

[Toaau]

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm away from my computer (and therefore notes) right now, but this has definitely been helpful. Just one major question right now; you have to pre-prepare your spells into slots at the start of the day? Now just have them, you actually need to choose how many of each spell you use? Do I have that right?

[Troacctid]

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm away from my computer (and therefore notes) right now, but this has definitely been helpful. Just one major question right now; you have to pre-prepare your spells into slots at the start of the day? Now just have them, you actually need to choose how many of each spell you use? Do I have that right?
Yes. For example, at 1st level, you probably have two 1st-level spell slots (one from your normal progression, and one as a bonus for a high ability score). When preparing your spells, you might choose to prepare Color Spray and Silent Image in those slots. Say in your first encounter of the day, you see a group of three goblins that are closely bunched up, so you Color Spray them. You no longer have Color Spray prepared--your only 1st-level spell left is Silent Image.

Instead, you could have prepared Color Spray twice. Then, after casting it the first time, you would still have another casting of it available. However, in that case, you wouldn't have the option of casting Silent Image.

This is the mechanic used by Wizards, as well as by Clerics and Druids and most other divine casters. Sorcerers and Bards use the same mechanic that they do in 5e, with spontaneous casting from limited spells known; however, the designers considered that mechanic to be more powerful, so they nerfed those classes to give them a weaker spell progression than prepared casters. There is one class in 3.5 that uses a spontaneous + prepared mechanic like the 5e prepared casters: the Spirit Shaman, from Complete Divine.

[Toaau]

Hmmmmnm. How are Bard and Sorcerer at being God "Wizards"?

[Troacctid]

Sorcerers have an advantage as combat mages because of their greater tactical flexibility; however, this is undermined by their nerfed spell progression, which means that their spells are, on average, less powerful than a Wizard's. Wizards are better utility mages because they can amass a greater arsenal of known spells to tackle a wide variety of different problems; however, they're also better combat mages because they get earlier access to higher-level spells.

Note that levels 1 and 2 are an exception to the normal paradigm--the Sorcerer is actually significantly better at those lowest levels because she has more spell slots and the Wizard hasn't yet accumulated a large spellbook.

Bards are different and play more like a hybrid of an arcane spellcaster and a skill-monkey, with a focus on social skills, stealth, and buffing. They have more skill points than Sorcerers and Wizards, and their spell list is primarily illusions and enchantments. Their spell progression is delayed even worse than the Sorcerer's, but eventually, at level 11, they can use the Sublime Chord prestige class to catch up.

If you want spontaneous casting, but don't want to suffer the over-the-top nerfs that the designers gave to the Sorcerer, you could try being a Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm). Psions use a power point system that is similar to spontaneous casting, but with higher granularity--you might know it better as the Spell Points variant from the 5e DMG. They have the tactical flexibility of the Sorcerer, but the spell progression and bonus feats of the Wizard, so they're an excellent happy medium. Granted, Psions aren't the best at buffing their allies, but they are not too shabby at debuffing their enemies, which is basically the same thing.

[Andezzar]

Hmmmmnm. How are Bard and Sorcerer at being God "Wizards"?Sorcerers have the problem of a very limited spell list, so the appropriate buff/debuff might not be on their lift (unless they hoard scrolls). On top of that they gain access to new spell levels one level after the wizard.
Bards suffer an even worse problem with their spells, because they are limited to 6th level spells (without multiclassing), but at least they have some other abilities.

That is just a comparison power wise. I do not intend to say that sorcerers or bards are not fun to play.

[Toaau]

Sorcerers have the problem of a very limited spell list, so the appropriate buff/debuff might not be on their lift (unless they hoard scrolls). On top of that they gain access to new spell levels one level after the wizard.
Bards suffer an even worse problem with their spells, because they are limited to 6th level spells (without multiclassing), but at least they have some other abilities.

That is just a comparison power wise. I do not intend to say that sorcerers or bards are not fun to play.

OK cool. And of the three (Wiz, Bar, Sorc) which would you reccommend to a newbie?

[Andezzar]

Wizard. Sorc and Bard are very easy to screw up with the wrong spell choices. If a wizard learns the wrong spells he can just buy/find scrolls of better spells and write them in his spellbook. It is a bit more difficult for the wizard to prepare the right spells from his spellbook, but that can be remedied the next day by preparing others (if they are in the spellbook).

Also ask the DM how likely he will go for your spellbook and/or component pouch. If he does that sort of thing, think about protecting them.

[Douglas]

OK cool. And of the three (Wiz, Bar, Sorc) which would you reccommend to a newbie?
Sorcerer. Much less bookkeeping to track, and no guess work about how many of each spell you'll need in a day. Just be careful about choosing good and versatile spells to learn, because fixing bad choices in that is very slow.

[Fizban]

(just wanted to point out that this is not necessarily true, if you take a lot of damage when you're on low hp you can very well be in instant-death territory, as 5e monsters tend to dish out a lot of damage)
In order to do so it has to effectively put you at negative hit points equal to your normal maximum in a single hit, unlikely with normal attacks. In 3.5 you get -10 and that's it. Crits at low level could be similarly dangerous, but you also spend far less time at 1st in 5e than you do in 3.5, and crits don't multiply nearly as much.

If you want to focus on buffing, Bard is a good bet since it's Inspire Courage doesn't cost you any spells and you can sing all day on a single use if you want. The downside is that you need a number of splatbooks to get the bonus high enough to really matter, and it's basically just attack/damage rather than anything more interesting.


A sorcerer that pushes the limits and uses all the tools available can expand their spells known enough to be a decent generalist, but there's really no comparison to a wizard since sorcerers have to pay so much in gold, feats, spell progression, etc to do so. The "being god" idea of the wizard involves lots of preparation and is easily knocked off course if your one copy of this or that spell fails or is dispelled and you can't re-cast it. A sorcerer with well picked spells is a hammer that doesn't stop swinging. You only need a couple of well-chosen buffs, or BFCs, or anything to get the job done. The "god" wizard is for someone who wants to be in control of every situation, which even in a "support" role can get annoying.

Also worth considering for more 1st level optimization: sorcerers have full simple weapon proficiency, giving them Longspears, which have reach, which can keep tings from reaching you alive. A human with Draconic Heritage+Draconic Breath feats has a better 1st level AoE than any spell for several levels while still having room for Enlarge Person and another spell of choice, and can follow the feat line up for more effects and/or bonus spells known.

[DrMartin]

OK cool. And of the three (Wiz, Bar, Sorc) which would you reccommend to a newbie?

If you have somebody to give you a couple of tips for spell selection, sorcerer is easier to play. You get to pick your spells only once, and then you just know them, and can use them quite liberally. They become your toolbox and you have to figure out how to solve challenges and problems with them. This means that sometimes you'll have to fit a square peg into a round hole, but that' is A) what adventuring is all about, and B) the reason why you can make things explode when you wink at them (sorcerers cast with charisma).

If you don't have anybody help you with spell selection, I would still say sorcerer, probably, unless you can use rather obscure sourcebooks (not your case as I understand). In that case I think that the most beginner-friendly and forgiving build is a wizard with aligned spellcasting [chaos] and chaotic spell recall, from Dragon Magazine 357 and Fiendish Codex I respectively.

[ATHATH]

If you trust yourself not to mess up, try a Sorcerer (with advice from some of the numerous handbooks about them).

If you don't, try a Spirit Shaman. Get the Wild Cohort (I recommend choosing a Fleshraker) and the Natural Bond feats so that you have something to use your animal-only buffs on. If you don't want to worry about your ball of murder incarnate's gear, take the Exalted Companion feat (or use the Planar Familiar trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?484493-Fun-With-Planar-Familiar)) to make it Celestial, then have your local Psionic cast Psychic Reformation on it to give it Vow of Poverty. I recommend making Touch of Golden Ice (boost its save DC with the Ability Focus feat) one of its new feats.