Think they will ever introduce stronger races?

[Spacehamster]

Like races that are large, races that have higher amount of + stats but with a CR penalty?

[JumboWheat01]

A proper Large race, maybe. It would be interesting to see a race that's on the opposite side of the spectrum from good ol' Halflings and Gnomes.

Something that causes an Effective Character Level like in 3.5? No, I highly doubt that will happen at all. 5th is more about simplicity, and having something like that to keep track of goes against simplicity.

[Spacehamster]

A proper Large race, maybe. It would be interesting to see a race that's on the opposite side of the spectrum from good ol' Halflings and Gnomes.

Something that causes an Effective Character Level like in 3.5? No, I highly doubt that will happen at all. 5th is more about simplicity, and having something like that to keep track of goes against simplicity.

Well 3.5 made it "complicated", could be made simple tho say they introduce LA 1-3 and just an index table that LA 1 get level 2 at so and so much xp and so on, no hard calculations or anything just simple look at page x and know. :)

[rhouck]

Nope.

At least not in official content. Maybe as an Unearthed Arcana suggestion, but I don't see them adding things (e.g., Large creatures) that create significant balance issues.

For races that have traits that are too hard to balance off the start, but are not so powerful as to be impossible to balance, I could see more of what they did with the Deep Gnomes in SCAG, where they can get innate spellcasting from a specialized feat available only to them.

[Cybren]

Nope.

At least not in official content. Maybe as an Unearthed Arcana suggestion, but I don't see them adding things (e.g., Large creatures) that create significant balance issues.

For races that have traits that are too hard to balance off the start, but are not so powerful as to be impossible to balance, I could see more of what they did with the Deep Gnomes in SCAG, where they can get innate spellcasting from a specialized feat available only to them.

Or going a little harder on abilities that scale with character level

[Regitnui]

Stronger? No. Bounded accuracy precludes adding any race or class that's notably stronger than the rest.

Stranger is more likely; We already have tieflings, aasimar, dragonborn, goliaths, aacokara(sp?) and genasi. For example, there are two 'monkey' races from 3.5; Hadozee, ship-apes with gliding squirrel flaps (patagium) that consider the ship they serve on more important than their birth parents, and dusklings, fae that use incarnum (and my first choice for a race to be released alongside a totemist class. Heaven knows the other races in that book were crispy-fried tampons left in a bowl of urine).

Just off the top of my head, a few of the races that could carve out a niche in 5e that doesn't step on other races we already have;
- Asherati, glowing humanoids who live under desert sand.
- Dromites, genderless insectoids who live in hive cities and use psionics
- Uldra, nomadic polar fey.
- Killoren, practically-immortal plant people
- Catfolk, exactly what they sound like
- Thri-keen, insectoid hunters (can overlap with Diopsids, which have stalk-eyes)

[Spacehamster]

Stronger? No. Bounded accuracy precludes adding any race or class that's notably stronger than the rest.

Stranger is more likely; We already have tieflings, aasimar, dragonborn, goliaths, aacokara(sp?) and genasi. For example, there are two 'monkey' races from 3.5; Hadozee, ship-apes with gliding squirrel flaps (patagium) that consider the ship they serve on more important than their birth parents, and dusklings, fae that use incarnum (and my first choice for a race to be released alongside a totemist class. Heaven knows the other races in that book were crispy-fried tampons left in a bowl of urine).

Just off the top of my head, a few of the races that could carve out a niche in 5e that doesn't step on other races we already have;
- Asherati, glowing humanoids who live under desert sand.
- Dromites, genderless insectoids who live in hive cities and use psionics
- Uldra, nomadic polar fey.
- Killoren, practically-immortal plant people
- Catfolk, exactly what they sound like
- Thri-keen, insectoid hunters (can overlap with Diopsids, which have stalk-eyes)

I want Flind! Evil dog man ftw. :D

[Hrugner]

In the introduction to the minotaur there is a specific mention of avoiding large minotaur players for the sake of convenience. I honestly don't think it would be too much of an issue to introduce them mechanically due to the change in AoO mechanics from 3.x and the lack of inherent stat growth, but the rules are pretty deliberately created to deal with characters of a specific size.

Stronger races in general will probably come down the tubes over time, but I'd expect to see gap fillers more than straight improvements.

[Regitnui]

I want Flind! Evil dog man ftw. :D

Lupins - werewolf-hunting dogfolk whose relationship to lycanthropes is enough of a question for people to not be entirely comfortable with them. Like Eberron's shifters but fully animal appearance.

[JoeJ]

For example, there are two 'monkey' races from 3.5; Hadozee, ship-apes with gliding squirrel flaps (patagium) that consider the ship they serve on more important than their birth parents, and dusklings, fae that use incarnum (and my first choice for a race to be released alongside a totemist class.

Hadozee were actually held over from 2e. They were in The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook along with another monkey race called Gromman. Also in that supplement were Dracons (dragon-centaurs), Giff (humanoid hippos who like to blow things up), Hurwaeti (humanoid newts), Lizard Men, Rastipedes (insect-centaurs), Scro (supercharged orcs), and Xixchil (humanoid praying mantises who are into body modification).

[R.Shackleford]

I could see a splat book/pdf of recreated races that are all stronger version of what we have. They are not to be used with normal races.

[ES Curse]

Maybe something like a Duergar that gets Enlarge? Make it very low-cost to cast, but don't give buffs to the medium form as compensation. You WANT to be large, but can function just fine in medium form.
Question is, what races would this fit...

[GlenSmash!]

Maybe something like a Duergar that gets Enlarge? Make it very low-cost to cast, but don't give buffs to the medium form as compensation. You WANT to be large, but can function just fine in medium form.
Question is, what races would this fit...

Sounds like a firbolg to me.

[Sigreid]

Level adjustment, I hope not.

Larger races like ogres and such? That could be cool. No reason to muck with level adjustments or negative stat adjustments though. I think getting rid of those was a bad idea.

[ZX6Rob]

Stronger? No. Bounded accuracy precludes adding any race or class that's notably stronger than the rest.

Stranger is more likely; We already have tieflings, aasimar, dragonborn, goliaths, aacokara(sp?) and genasi. For example, there are two 'monkey' races from 3.5; Hadozee, ship-apes with gliding squirrel flaps (patagium) that consider the ship they serve on more important than their birth parents, and dusklings, fae that use incarnum (and my first choice for a race to be released alongside a totemist class. Heaven knows the other races in that book were crispy-fried tampons left in a bowl of urine).

Just off the top of my head, a few of the races that could carve out a niche in 5e that doesn't step on other races we already have;
- Asherati, glowing humanoids who live under desert sand.
- Dromites, genderless insectoids who live in hive cities and use psionics
- Uldra, nomadic polar fey.
- Killoren, practically-immortal plant people
- Catfolk, exactly what they sound like
- Thri-keen, insectoid hunters (can overlap with Diopsids, which have stalk-eyes)

Don't forget about Shardminds! Psionic creatures of living crystal!

...

...I'm the only person who cares about Shardminds? I'll... I'll see myself out.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well 3.5 made it "complicated", could be made simple tho say they introduce LA 1-3 and just an index table that LA 1 get level 2 at so and so much xp and so on, no hard calculations or anything just simple look at page x and know. :)
That sounds more complicated than 3.5. As far as I know, that was just "You're X levels higher than your class level total for XP purposes". Adding an extra number to your level once in a while isn't that tricky.


In the introduction to the minotaur there is a specific mention of avoiding large minotaur players for the sake of convenience. I honestly don't think it would be too much of an issue to introduce them mechanically due to the change in AoO mechanics from 3.x and the lack of inherent stat growth, but the rules are pretty deliberately created to deal with characters of a specific size.
I imagine it has less to do with mechanics and more to do with bumping your head into doorways even when crouching.


Re: Primary Topic:
I'm not sure, but I'd expect more same-powered races than higher-powered ones in any edition (monsters incidentally labeled as playabe aside), and I don't think WotC is as eager to introduce player options well beyond the norm after how that turned out for 3.5.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wouldn't expect it, but I also wouldn't have expected flying races and we've gotten those in both new splatbooks, so...

In the introduction to the minotaur there is a specific mention of avoiding large minotaur players for the sake of convenience. I honestly don't think it would be too much of an issue to introduce them mechanically due to the change in AoO mechanics from 3.x and the lack of inherent stat growth, but the rules are pretty deliberately created to deal with characters of a specific size.
Also this.

[R.Shackleford]

Don't forget about Shardminds! Psionic creatures of living crystal!

...

...I'm the only person who cares about Shardminds? I'll... I'll see myself out.

I loved the idea of shardminds but not really the application. Last I was playing they didn't get much love :(

Also, I would love to see shardminds be crystals that take over a host and turn the brain to crystals.

[8wGremlin]

You can do all those races without changing any rules if you and your DM and Players are ok with you re-fluffing.

Catfolk = take wild elf and refluff
Gnoll = take goliath and refluff

your free to do this.

[danpit2991]

If you want a giant just take a goliath and replace stones endurance with you count as large for all abilities except actual size and make him 9 ft tall

[Slipperychicken]

I think they will wind up making races that are improperly balanced, making them stronger than most of the existing ones.


I think that overpowered races will happen through 'unique' but poorly thought out abilities, rather than deviating from the current stat formula (i.e. +2 to one stat, +1 to another). I could see them making a proper large-sized player race down the line, but I think it will create a lot of headaches because the rules by and large assume medium-sized PCs (they even treat Small ones as medium for things like encumbrance), and a considerable number of rules would need to be made to properly accommodate large ones.

[krugaan]

I loved the idea of shardminds but not really the application. Last I was playing they didn't get much love :(

Also, I would love to see shardminds be crystals that take over a host and turn the brain to crystals.

Nice, I'll be a intellect devourer shardmind lore bard!

I'll have to be inhabiting a body with a mouth to use a bunch of my abilities, but what the heck!

[R.Shackleford]

Nice, I'll be a intellect devourer shardmind lore bard!

I'll have to be inhabiting a body with a mouth to use a bunch of my abilities, but what the heck!

I was thinking "The last of Us" except with psionic Crystal shards.

We could have bloaters even!

[Regitnui]

I was thinking "The last of Us" except with psionic Crystal shards.

We could have bloaters even!

Stronger races? Nope. Stranger races, almost certainly.

[Spacehamster]

That sounds more complicated than 3.5. As far as I know, that was just "You're X levels higher than your class level total for XP purposes". Adding an extra number to your level once in a while isn't that tricky.

I imagine it has less to do with mechanics and more to do with bumping your head into doorways even when crouching.


Re: Primary Topic:
I'm not sure, but I'd expect more same-powered races than higher-powered ones in any edition (monsters incidentally labeled as playabe aside), and I don't think WotC is as eager to introduce player options well beyond the norm after how that turned out for 3.5.

How is looking at a table when you get your next level complicated in comparison to calculating when you could buy off one of your LA adjustments so you could reach max level with your LA? :)

[Theodoxus]

Not to get into an edition war (too late), but LA doesn't make sense in a verisimilitude way. You're arbitrarily more powerful, so you're arbitrarily of a lower level? I mean, levels push verisimilitude as it is... but that's just ridiculous.

There is so much furor over class 'tiers', I'm shocked there isn't a similar discussion on race 'tiers'.

If a DM can have encounters that are enjoyable and make sense for a group that has a Wizard, a Cleric a Fighter and a Rogue, they can certainly make encounters that are enjoyable and make sense for a group that has a Vuman, a Half-elf, a Deep Gnome and Half-ogre.

Sure, you'll run into disparaging remarks from folk about not playing RAW, and obviously it doesn't help in AL play, but if I can balance a flying tiefling and a normal human in the same party and have it make sense, I can certainly add an ogre, a baby dragon or a were-bear into the mix.

And no, you don't need wacky LA or artificial power limits... Much like the fighter discussion, if you want to play a human with +6 to stats, great. If you'd rather play a green dragon, have a nut. It's about options and catering to whims, not shoehorning balance into things that are inherently not.

You think the player of Black Widow complains she's not as strong as the Hulk? Or the player of Batman think's he's screwed because he has to use his brains to outwit and outplay Superman?
(To mix genre to make my point)

As a corollary to the Stormwind Fallacy, the more disparate the party, the more interesting it is for the DM to build around. Sure, some can't handle having an AC 31 guy and an AC 15 guy in the same party... or one dude with 200 HPs and another with 44... those types need a bit more mundane in their games just for parity. But when you can challenge every member of the Justice League without wtfpwning one of them... that's just the best.

[ZX6Rob]

As a corollary to the Stormwind Fallacy, the more disparate the party, the more interesting it is for the DM to build around. Sure, some can't handle having an AC 31 guy and an AC 15 guy in the same party... or one dude with 200 HPs and another with 44... those types need a bit more mundane in their games just for parity. But when you can challenge every member of the Justice League without wtfpwning one of them... that's just the best.

Well, yes, but... One of the most common complaints leveled by critics at things like the Justice League is the amount of narrative contortion it sometimes takes to deal with that kind of disparity (a.k.a. "Why doesn't Superman just solve every problem? He can literally do anything!"). The writers have to come up with scenarios in which Superman's limitless powers are somehow misdirected or not applicable, whereas Batman has an inordinate amount of knowledge, or a secret weapon that he's kept for "just such an occasion", or even just an opponent he can take on while the guys who move planets around like bowling balls distract that guy's much-more-powerful lackeys.

In RPGs, where the players are actually developing the story and their characters in real-time, it's a lot more difficult (not impossible, just really, really hard) to deal with a similar level of power disparity. Sure, you can always introduce encounters where you have several opponents clearly matched to your party ("Superman, you handle the gigantic robot with the antimatter fists! Aquaman, you take care of that guy in the water with the sonic cannon! Leave that normal human with the ability to change the color of his outfit to anything he can imagine to me..."), but that's going to start feeling like cheating, or at least like pandering, after the first few times.

That aside, the other issue is that Batman, the ur-example of "normal guy in a party of gods", isn't really a "normal" human being at all. He basically does have super-powers, they're just subtler than laser-eyes and fish telepathy. Batman is able to do what he can do in the Justice League because he is possessed of a) a near-superhuman intellect, and b) near-limitless financial resources. To deal with the second one first, in a pre-industrial society, that mountain of gold doesn't translate into the same kind of stuff that Batman brings to the League. A big pile of gold only goes so far when there's nothing to spend it on. You can hire Wizards and craft or buy magical items, but then you're just giving yourself the same superpowers that everyone else has in order to keep up.

The other problem, the superhuman intelligence, is tricky because a character, no matter what's written on the sheet, is only as smart as the guy who's playing him. In a story, like a comic book or a movie story, I mean, not what we're doing with the graph paper and dice and such, you have narrative control. Batman can have a plan for Just Such an Occasion, because all you need to do is show what the villain is doing and then write, "Batman smirks and says, 'I knew you would do that' as he activates his hidden Bat-Anti-Plot-Device". When we're all kind of doing things on the fly (and your Batman analogue character is being played by your friend Steve who forgets his dice every week and used to eat paste when you were kids), you don't have that kind of control. You can only really react to what's happening, and if you needed to have a clever plan to counter it, that's something that you had to come up with as a player ahead of time.

That really kind of sucks, because it means it's really, really hard to play the super-smart hero in D&D. We don't ask that the guy rolling the Barbarian be able to deadlift 800 pounds, we don't ask the guy playing the Ranger to be able to actually shoot another arrow out of the sky like that Danish trick-shot artist, and we don't ask the guy playing the Rogue to actually be capable of taking everyone's wallet (and would, in fact, appreciate it if you quit attempting to do so, Kevin, your skills at petty thievery are noted!). But if the character with the 18 intelligence and no real other special abilities wants to be in the same party as the Planetouched Exalted Psionic Half-Troll Dire Were-Ape, he's actually got to be able to outsmart the table! The guy playing the mish-mash of templates just has to roll kind of high.

So, I do agree with you -- when you are skilled enough as a DM to challenge characters across multiple, disparate levels of power, at the same time, without making it feel artificial, cheap, or contrived, that is a super awesome time. That is also extremely challenging and very rare; the vast majority of DMs aren't going to be able to do that, and I think that a system that exists to help prevent the need to do so is essential in maintaining the approachability of D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular. The alternative is, well, something like R.I.F.T.S, I guess.

[JoeJ]

The other problem, the superhuman intelligence, is tricky because a character, no matter what's written on the sheet, is only as smart as the guy who's playing him. In a story, like a comic book or a movie story, I mean, not what we're doing with the graph paper and dice and such, you have narrative control. Batman can have a plan for Just Such an Occasion, because all you need to do is show what the villain is doing and then write, "Batman smirks and says, 'I knew you would do that' as he activates his hidden Bat-Anti-Plot-Device". When we're all kind of doing things on the fly (and your Batman analogue character is being played by your friend Steve who forgets his dice every week and used to eat paste when you were kids), you don't have that kind of control. You can only really react to what's happening, and if you needed to have a clever plan to counter it, that's something that you had to come up with as a player ahead of time.

The way that this was dealt with in the old DC Heroes RPG was to let Batman spend a few hero points to pull some gadget out of his utility belt that had not previously been defined on his character sheet. (The game term was omni-gadget, but it just meant that the player didn't have to decide what the gadget was until it was used.)

In 5e, it should be possible to come up with some way that a PC with Inspiration can spend it on some sort of retroactive preparation.

[R.Shackleford]

Stronger races? Nope. Stranger races, almost certainly.

They are only strange if you are a stranger.