ShadowcatK
2016-04-18, 03:49 PM
I know this will probably stir up some interesting comments and this has been posted before BUT lets really look at the concept of what class is better, the Dragon Fire Adept or Warlock. Now many have said they believe the DFA to be the better class but lets review each a bit closer. First, as all are aware, the build of class/character is the most important thing. How your character is built will determine most of the time how well they play, as well as survive. Some of it comes from who your GM is, how good they are and if you somehow managed to upset them. The rest comes from how the character is played by you, the player. ;) So Lets look at the classes on a base level and see which is better shall we?
Invocations:
DFA gets 2 more Invocations then the Warlock, DFA better? yes and no. You have to look at what Invocations each gets and which ones are chosen by you the player as apposed what you will be doing and how you will be playing your character. Each class has its own flavor of invocations, some great, some ok, some bad. Unless noted otherwise, Invocations have a duration of 24hrs. If your going by simple numbers as to who gets more, then yes the DFA has the edge. Advantage - DFA
This invocation gets a lot of mention so i though i/we should look at it a bit more closely:
Magical Insight Invocation (DFA): a invocation at 1st level to detect magic AND identify magic items combined. It can do two things with one invocation, at the same time! Whoa!! That is something no other class can make a claim to and will make you beloved by any group you play with, which is awesome! Advantage - DFA? No not really. Wait, what do you mean not really Shad?
Well, Warlocks can detect magic at will as a class ability, both operate as detect magic spell at class level and duration. However, all a warlock needs to do is get a wand of identify. Since your going to be doing this during downtime/camping or in a safe area without the risk of interruption (since you need to be concentrating the whole time to make it work), it is really not as much of a advantage to DFA's as it looks like and the DFA is using up a invocation to do both, while a Warlock isn't using any.
A wand of identify (if you can find one) is pretty cheap, holds up to 50 charges and does not require you to touch the item, your touching the wand to the item. Yes, your have to use a UMD roll to activate the wand but should be no problem for a warlock over lvl 4 anyway and your avoiding any possible curses said magic item might have from landing on you. (even going by RAW...ooh i said the "R" word). Unlike any caster or DFA, who has to hold said item while using identify spell/invocation and as you all know, curses are a major pain in the backside, no matter what they may be.
Both classes get UMD as a class skill BUT Warlocks also get the ability to fool Deceive Item at lvl 4 allowing the lock to take 10 on a umd roll for ANY magic item, even if distracted or threatened. Both classes are awesome and made to use wands but warlocks have a slight upper hand due to Deceive Item ability. so technically Advantage - Warlock
DFA gets flight through invocations/feats. The poor earthbound Warlock doesn't usually (see below) and is forced to use magic items to fly. -score one for DFA
DFA get the ability to take Draconian feats - Warlocks: no, unless the warlock is a Silver Brow human, Spell Scale or Dragon born races/sub classes then yes. However Warlocks should be leaning more towards the Fey/Warlock designed feats. Both classes seriously feat starved so both have to be super careful on what feats you take. There are more slightly more feats available to the DFA then the Warlock. Advantage - DFA
BAB, Hps and Saves: Warlock has the much better BAB attack rolls, Dragon Fire Adept as better hit points and fort saves, both classes have same reflex and will saves, DFA has a d8 per lvl vs Warlocks d6. Advantage - DFA at least at first glance but when you look at the overall capabilities, the Warlock actually comes out on top in combat situations. (see below)
Combat Abilities:
Basic Attacks: As mentioned above, Warlocks have higher BaB scores and hit better then DFA in both melee and ranged combat - Advantage Warlock
Basic Defense: DFA is the clear winner here, while Warlocks can wear light armor without penalty, DFA can wear light armor as well but with penalty. DFA has a higher dice roll, d8 vs d6 and DFA most important stat is Con. DFA will, as a rule, have much more HP then a Warlock, more HP higher chances of survival in combat -Advantage DFA
Attack ability: Breath Weapon vs Eldritch Blast - This is were things get real interesting and the Warlock class seriously outshines the DFA....sorry folks but its true. A DFA breath attack is con based vs Warlocks cha. The DFA does not need a attack roll but does allow a save, while the Warlock is the opposite. On the surface it looks like the DFA has the advantage but you need to look closer as to why Warlock has the upper hand:
1) DFA breath weapon range is 15' cone/30' line starting, 30/60' at lvl 10. A Warlock Eldritch Blast has a start range of 60', not counting any feats or invocations. NOW Warlocks can get the Eldritch Spear invocation at first level, increasing the blast to 250', while the DFA has to wait till lvl 6 just to get a feat to extend that distance. Using their breath/blast ability provides a opportunity to attack and both require a standard action to use but since both are "ranged attacks" its going to be hard to get a OOA. It will be easier to get a OOA on a DFA since they have to get up close to launch a breath attack and if the person/creature has a reach attack of some kind, like a spiked chain or whip, tentacles ect in which case a OOA will be gained against the DFA using cone attack before lvl 6. Also, if the DFA is using a cone shaped attack, that is well within range of someone/something running up using a move action, to get right in the DFAs face and being smacked in return. Meanwhile the Warlock can hanging waaaay back behind party members, rocks, trees, boulders, around bends ect and sniping from range well outside any possible OOA or charging attacks...unless the warlock is using Eldritch Glaive or Claw attacks. The DFA gets feats and Invocations to augment their breath attack but so does the warlock. Advantage -Warlock
2) DFA breath weapon hits everyone/thing in range of your breath attack, including any party members who are unfortunately in the line of fire (yikes!) and they are not going to be happy about that one bit, requiring the DFA to choose his position during combat VERY carefully. Warlock does not have this problem, so long as a warlock can see who they are hitting and within range, they can blast away without worrying about causing friendly fire. A DFA has to use up a invocation just to keep this from happening...not good at all. Advantage - Warlock
3) Meta-breath vs meta-spell like ability Feats: Any time a DFA uses a meta breath feat to augment their breath attack, it adds rounds to the time before they can use their breath attack again. A warlock does not have this problem, the limit being how many times each day a warlock can use a meta spell-like feat. So while the DFA is waiting to reuse his breath attack again, the Warlock is using their eldritch blast/glaive/claw ability with impunity, without any delay in rounds. Advantage - Warlock
4) Damage: DFA and warlocks have the same damage output per level unassisted on their breath attack/Eldritch blast. However unlike the DFA (that i am aware of), there are feats and items available to the Warlock such as mortal bane, gloves of eldritch admixture, warlocks scepter to name a few, that can boots a warlocks damage output through the roof. example : At lvl 7, both have maximize (breath/spell like ability feat) both have 4d6 (24hps) base damage. BUT a warlock with above mentioned items/feats can cut loose and boost his damage to a maximum of 14d6 (4d6 base+4d6 gloves+4d6 scepter+2d6 mortal bane feat +maximize spell like ability feat for a whopping total of 84hps)! Yes a DFA is hitting everyone in a cone but warlocks with eldritch chain invocation can hit multiple targets too with blast or with spear doing 84hp to prime target and 48hps to the others in range, double what the DFA could. Granted that's a all out kamikaze blast by the warlock but still...that's insane! The DFA is outgunned, out ranged and out quaffed to the max! Overwhelming advantage - Warlock
4) Attack rolls: Dfa automatic hit no need to roll but anyone in the blast gets a reflex save. Warlock has to roll a ranged touch attack but no save. which is better? im sorry to say but the warlock has this too. now im sure your going to argue auto hit! BUT your forgetting your breath attack gets a reflex save. Many classes and creatures get evasion, can get magic items to avoid these types of attacks and/or have decent reflex saves, regardless of how high your DC to save on your breath attack, so the chances of taking either half or no damage from your breath attack are good and get better at higher levels. The warlock on the other hand makes a ranged touch attack with no save. why is this better? Because the warlock is rolling against a persons/creatures TOUCH ac not their actual ac, which is a HUGE difference in combat terms.
Example: a lvl 7 fighter decked out in full mithral magic plate mail, shield and any magic items is going to have a ac around 25+ BUT his touch ac is only going to be any wear from 10-14 depend on their dex and natural armor, if any. Going against the fighters normal ac of 25 or better, the warlock would have a small chance to hit BUT since the warlock is rolling against the fighters 'Touch' ac, even with a low d20 hit roll, the above mentioned lvl 7 warlock has a very good chance of nailing the fighter right in the mush, be it with blast, spear, glaive or claw attack and take massive damage in the process with no chance to save (a lvl 7 lock has a bab of +5, +1 to blast attack rolls for the scepter and depending on how high their dex mod is, they would have to roll a 4 or even less on a d20 to hit the fighter). More then likely forcing the fighter to make a d20 fort system shock roll, that's if it didn't kill them outright, depending on how many hps the fighter had at the time of the attack hitting them and how much damage the Warlock put into the hit.
The DFA breathes at the same fighter and the fighter gets hit with the breath attack automatically but now the fighter gets a reflex save to avoid taking the full damage. Even if the fighter saves, he will have plenty of hp to spare, honking them off and making their armor smoke in the process. The said, now profoundly POed but still very much alive, smoking fighter, on their round is more then likely going to go after the poor DFA, if they can get to him/her, in a attempt to smack the DFA three ways to next Sunday, making them wish they never got out of the bedroll, let alone daring to try to turn them into a charcoal briquet. (unless the dfa is outside and doing flying strafing runs, which still wont stop the fighter from getting majorly annoyed and quick drawing a ranged weapon on them and cutting loose in return).
Now if your party opens a door to a room full of monsters. Everyone is going to want to step back as the DFA sticks his head in the doorway and cuts loose with that breath weapon, turning everyone in the room into a charcoal briquet (or monstersicles if you have frost breath augmentation) and softening them up for the rest of the party BUT at the same time exposing yourself if you didnt catch them flatfooted to some payback and getting attacked in return, forcing a bottle neck jam as the DFA quickly trys to get out of the way. The warlock in the same situation, can simply stick their hand between the lead party members or stand behind the designated meat shield and cut loose with a chain blast and watch as most of the monsters jerk and shake like they stuck their fingers in a light socket before collapsing in a whimpering pile of goo. Or break out the eldritch glaive, smacking away at reach distance without hampering the rest of the party. Overall Combat Advantage - Warlock hands down
Role playing: This one i would have to give to the DFA hands down. What could be more fun being able to fly, diving and doing strafing runs ect. Able to be the face of the party, the diplomat, the charismatic leader that inspires awe as you swoop into town and wave to the masses as you soar serenely overhead. Like any game, the measure of the enjoyment will be received, by who your gaming with and how much you get into your character and have fun with him/her/it. This category is more subjective then the others, some love locks some love DFAs, its all how you play it but the overall consensus is the DFA is more fun.
So overall take on the classes....combat and surviveablitly the Warlock has the advantage at all levels, Roleplayablity and Game play goes to the Dragon Fire Adept since they appear to have more options available to them (flight, diplomacy ect). Granted, i did not get in depth into the respective invocations and feats available for each class, i wanted to give a overall idea of what to expect. Naturally, as i said before, how you build your Dragon fire Adept or Warlock is entirely up to you and can and will alter each individuals character, overall enjoyment combat and game play of each class. Im simply going by base stats and gameplay from each as i experienced it over my years of playing D&D.
Invocations:
DFA gets 2 more Invocations then the Warlock, DFA better? yes and no. You have to look at what Invocations each gets and which ones are chosen by you the player as apposed what you will be doing and how you will be playing your character. Each class has its own flavor of invocations, some great, some ok, some bad. Unless noted otherwise, Invocations have a duration of 24hrs. If your going by simple numbers as to who gets more, then yes the DFA has the edge. Advantage - DFA
This invocation gets a lot of mention so i though i/we should look at it a bit more closely:
Magical Insight Invocation (DFA): a invocation at 1st level to detect magic AND identify magic items combined. It can do two things with one invocation, at the same time! Whoa!! That is something no other class can make a claim to and will make you beloved by any group you play with, which is awesome! Advantage - DFA? No not really. Wait, what do you mean not really Shad?
Well, Warlocks can detect magic at will as a class ability, both operate as detect magic spell at class level and duration. However, all a warlock needs to do is get a wand of identify. Since your going to be doing this during downtime/camping or in a safe area without the risk of interruption (since you need to be concentrating the whole time to make it work), it is really not as much of a advantage to DFA's as it looks like and the DFA is using up a invocation to do both, while a Warlock isn't using any.
A wand of identify (if you can find one) is pretty cheap, holds up to 50 charges and does not require you to touch the item, your touching the wand to the item. Yes, your have to use a UMD roll to activate the wand but should be no problem for a warlock over lvl 4 anyway and your avoiding any possible curses said magic item might have from landing on you. (even going by RAW...ooh i said the "R" word). Unlike any caster or DFA, who has to hold said item while using identify spell/invocation and as you all know, curses are a major pain in the backside, no matter what they may be.
Both classes get UMD as a class skill BUT Warlocks also get the ability to fool Deceive Item at lvl 4 allowing the lock to take 10 on a umd roll for ANY magic item, even if distracted or threatened. Both classes are awesome and made to use wands but warlocks have a slight upper hand due to Deceive Item ability. so technically Advantage - Warlock
DFA gets flight through invocations/feats. The poor earthbound Warlock doesn't usually (see below) and is forced to use magic items to fly. -score one for DFA
DFA get the ability to take Draconian feats - Warlocks: no, unless the warlock is a Silver Brow human, Spell Scale or Dragon born races/sub classes then yes. However Warlocks should be leaning more towards the Fey/Warlock designed feats. Both classes seriously feat starved so both have to be super careful on what feats you take. There are more slightly more feats available to the DFA then the Warlock. Advantage - DFA
BAB, Hps and Saves: Warlock has the much better BAB attack rolls, Dragon Fire Adept as better hit points and fort saves, both classes have same reflex and will saves, DFA has a d8 per lvl vs Warlocks d6. Advantage - DFA at least at first glance but when you look at the overall capabilities, the Warlock actually comes out on top in combat situations. (see below)
Combat Abilities:
Basic Attacks: As mentioned above, Warlocks have higher BaB scores and hit better then DFA in both melee and ranged combat - Advantage Warlock
Basic Defense: DFA is the clear winner here, while Warlocks can wear light armor without penalty, DFA can wear light armor as well but with penalty. DFA has a higher dice roll, d8 vs d6 and DFA most important stat is Con. DFA will, as a rule, have much more HP then a Warlock, more HP higher chances of survival in combat -Advantage DFA
Attack ability: Breath Weapon vs Eldritch Blast - This is were things get real interesting and the Warlock class seriously outshines the DFA....sorry folks but its true. A DFA breath attack is con based vs Warlocks cha. The DFA does not need a attack roll but does allow a save, while the Warlock is the opposite. On the surface it looks like the DFA has the advantage but you need to look closer as to why Warlock has the upper hand:
1) DFA breath weapon range is 15' cone/30' line starting, 30/60' at lvl 10. A Warlock Eldritch Blast has a start range of 60', not counting any feats or invocations. NOW Warlocks can get the Eldritch Spear invocation at first level, increasing the blast to 250', while the DFA has to wait till lvl 6 just to get a feat to extend that distance. Using their breath/blast ability provides a opportunity to attack and both require a standard action to use but since both are "ranged attacks" its going to be hard to get a OOA. It will be easier to get a OOA on a DFA since they have to get up close to launch a breath attack and if the person/creature has a reach attack of some kind, like a spiked chain or whip, tentacles ect in which case a OOA will be gained against the DFA using cone attack before lvl 6. Also, if the DFA is using a cone shaped attack, that is well within range of someone/something running up using a move action, to get right in the DFAs face and being smacked in return. Meanwhile the Warlock can hanging waaaay back behind party members, rocks, trees, boulders, around bends ect and sniping from range well outside any possible OOA or charging attacks...unless the warlock is using Eldritch Glaive or Claw attacks. The DFA gets feats and Invocations to augment their breath attack but so does the warlock. Advantage -Warlock
2) DFA breath weapon hits everyone/thing in range of your breath attack, including any party members who are unfortunately in the line of fire (yikes!) and they are not going to be happy about that one bit, requiring the DFA to choose his position during combat VERY carefully. Warlock does not have this problem, so long as a warlock can see who they are hitting and within range, they can blast away without worrying about causing friendly fire. A DFA has to use up a invocation just to keep this from happening...not good at all. Advantage - Warlock
3) Meta-breath vs meta-spell like ability Feats: Any time a DFA uses a meta breath feat to augment their breath attack, it adds rounds to the time before they can use their breath attack again. A warlock does not have this problem, the limit being how many times each day a warlock can use a meta spell-like feat. So while the DFA is waiting to reuse his breath attack again, the Warlock is using their eldritch blast/glaive/claw ability with impunity, without any delay in rounds. Advantage - Warlock
4) Damage: DFA and warlocks have the same damage output per level unassisted on their breath attack/Eldritch blast. However unlike the DFA (that i am aware of), there are feats and items available to the Warlock such as mortal bane, gloves of eldritch admixture, warlocks scepter to name a few, that can boots a warlocks damage output through the roof. example : At lvl 7, both have maximize (breath/spell like ability feat) both have 4d6 (24hps) base damage. BUT a warlock with above mentioned items/feats can cut loose and boost his damage to a maximum of 14d6 (4d6 base+4d6 gloves+4d6 scepter+2d6 mortal bane feat +maximize spell like ability feat for a whopping total of 84hps)! Yes a DFA is hitting everyone in a cone but warlocks with eldritch chain invocation can hit multiple targets too with blast or with spear doing 84hp to prime target and 48hps to the others in range, double what the DFA could. Granted that's a all out kamikaze blast by the warlock but still...that's insane! The DFA is outgunned, out ranged and out quaffed to the max! Overwhelming advantage - Warlock
4) Attack rolls: Dfa automatic hit no need to roll but anyone in the blast gets a reflex save. Warlock has to roll a ranged touch attack but no save. which is better? im sorry to say but the warlock has this too. now im sure your going to argue auto hit! BUT your forgetting your breath attack gets a reflex save. Many classes and creatures get evasion, can get magic items to avoid these types of attacks and/or have decent reflex saves, regardless of how high your DC to save on your breath attack, so the chances of taking either half or no damage from your breath attack are good and get better at higher levels. The warlock on the other hand makes a ranged touch attack with no save. why is this better? Because the warlock is rolling against a persons/creatures TOUCH ac not their actual ac, which is a HUGE difference in combat terms.
Example: a lvl 7 fighter decked out in full mithral magic plate mail, shield and any magic items is going to have a ac around 25+ BUT his touch ac is only going to be any wear from 10-14 depend on their dex and natural armor, if any. Going against the fighters normal ac of 25 or better, the warlock would have a small chance to hit BUT since the warlock is rolling against the fighters 'Touch' ac, even with a low d20 hit roll, the above mentioned lvl 7 warlock has a very good chance of nailing the fighter right in the mush, be it with blast, spear, glaive or claw attack and take massive damage in the process with no chance to save (a lvl 7 lock has a bab of +5, +1 to blast attack rolls for the scepter and depending on how high their dex mod is, they would have to roll a 4 or even less on a d20 to hit the fighter). More then likely forcing the fighter to make a d20 fort system shock roll, that's if it didn't kill them outright, depending on how many hps the fighter had at the time of the attack hitting them and how much damage the Warlock put into the hit.
The DFA breathes at the same fighter and the fighter gets hit with the breath attack automatically but now the fighter gets a reflex save to avoid taking the full damage. Even if the fighter saves, he will have plenty of hp to spare, honking them off and making their armor smoke in the process. The said, now profoundly POed but still very much alive, smoking fighter, on their round is more then likely going to go after the poor DFA, if they can get to him/her, in a attempt to smack the DFA three ways to next Sunday, making them wish they never got out of the bedroll, let alone daring to try to turn them into a charcoal briquet. (unless the dfa is outside and doing flying strafing runs, which still wont stop the fighter from getting majorly annoyed and quick drawing a ranged weapon on them and cutting loose in return).
Now if your party opens a door to a room full of monsters. Everyone is going to want to step back as the DFA sticks his head in the doorway and cuts loose with that breath weapon, turning everyone in the room into a charcoal briquet (or monstersicles if you have frost breath augmentation) and softening them up for the rest of the party BUT at the same time exposing yourself if you didnt catch them flatfooted to some payback and getting attacked in return, forcing a bottle neck jam as the DFA quickly trys to get out of the way. The warlock in the same situation, can simply stick their hand between the lead party members or stand behind the designated meat shield and cut loose with a chain blast and watch as most of the monsters jerk and shake like they stuck their fingers in a light socket before collapsing in a whimpering pile of goo. Or break out the eldritch glaive, smacking away at reach distance without hampering the rest of the party. Overall Combat Advantage - Warlock hands down
Role playing: This one i would have to give to the DFA hands down. What could be more fun being able to fly, diving and doing strafing runs ect. Able to be the face of the party, the diplomat, the charismatic leader that inspires awe as you swoop into town and wave to the masses as you soar serenely overhead. Like any game, the measure of the enjoyment will be received, by who your gaming with and how much you get into your character and have fun with him/her/it. This category is more subjective then the others, some love locks some love DFAs, its all how you play it but the overall consensus is the DFA is more fun.
So overall take on the classes....combat and surviveablitly the Warlock has the advantage at all levels, Roleplayablity and Game play goes to the Dragon Fire Adept since they appear to have more options available to them (flight, diplomacy ect). Granted, i did not get in depth into the respective invocations and feats available for each class, i wanted to give a overall idea of what to expect. Naturally, as i said before, how you build your Dragon fire Adept or Warlock is entirely up to you and can and will alter each individuals character, overall enjoyment combat and game play of each class. Im simply going by base stats and gameplay from each as i experienced it over my years of playing D&D.