3.5 Warforged Juggernaut Build questions

[ShadowcatK]

I created a Warforged character with the intent to hit Juggernaut prc at lvl 6. After doing research i came up with a few ideas to give him some flavor and interesting ability's.

I started with first two levels of fighter, then switching to add 3 levels of Barbarian/Psychic Warrior gestalt, then enter Warforged Juggernaut prc on lvl 6.

I gave him Barbarian Spirit Lion Totem, Barbarian Bear Totem, Whirling Frenzy and Dungeon Crasher ACFs. he has all requirements to meet Juggernaut Prc thanks to the number of feats allowed from the two fighter classes and the 3 lvls of gestalt and the barbarian afcs. His Psionic skills are detect psionic, vigor and expansion.

Im hoping to level him (if he survives) 6th lvl fighter/9th lvl Barbarian/Psychic Warrior/5th lvl Warforged Juggernaut by lvl 20.

Would this be a good idea or should i go a different route?

Is going Barbarian/Psychic Warrior a good gestalt mix?

[Troacctid]

Why aren't all of your levels gestalt? Are you only allowed to have one gestalt class? How does the gestalt variant work in your game?

[RoyVG]

I am also wondering how gestalt works in your campaign, because honestly, and forgive me for saying it this way, this does not make any sense.

[ShadowcatK]

we can only have one gestalt and are going by ph2 rules for gestalt classes.

[Troacctid]

Okay, in that case, you should probably just go straight gestalt. Gestalt is strictly better than any single class, so there's very little reason to multiclass here.

[ExLibrisMortis]

we can only have one gestalt and are going by ph2 rules for gestalt classes.
This seems like a weird rule, but if that's how it is, I would just go with initiator 20//buff caster 20. The double slashes indicate gestalt.

For initiators, there's obviously only three choices, and they line up with each mental stat, more or less. Going by that theme, I'd primarily suggest warblade/wizard (or psion), crusader/sorcerer, and swordsage/cleric (or druid, ardent). Other combinations work just fine, though. Warforged have a penalty on charisma and wisdom, so the warblade has an advantage.

[ShadowcatK]

This seems like a weird rule, but if that's how it is, I would just go with initiator 20//buff caster 20. The double slashes indicate gestalt.

For initiators, there's obviously only three choices, and they line up with each mental stat, more or less. Going by that theme, I'd primarily suggest warblade/wizard (or psion), crusader/sorcerer, and swordsage/cleric (or druid, ardent). Other combinations work just fine, though. Warforged have a penalty on charisma and wisdom, so the warblade has an advantage.

not sure why that would be a weird rule, besides our gm wanted to keep people from getting to powerful., having one gestalt class was powerful enough, but having two gestalt classes was going overboard according to him.

As to the reason why i multi-classed Fighter with a gestalt, is because of the Fighter Dungeon Crasher ACF, which i thought would go awesome with the pending Juggernaut build and i needed Fighter class to get heavy armor proficiency for adamantine body feat. It would augment Improved bull rush and Juggernauts bull rush, charge and spiked armor abilities. Fighter is favored class for warforged, so dont need to worry about xp penalty and the extra feats helped a lot.

chosen feats were: Adamantine Body at first (req of juggernaut), lost the barbarian fast movement due to wearing heavy armor but no biggie since the ability got swapped out from totem anyway. Power Attack (req of juggernaut), Improved Bull Rush (req of juggernaut), Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat reflex, Improved Overrun. Feats from totems were: Improved Grapple, Great Fortitude, Toughness, and Pounce ability, Dungeon Crasher ACF and Barbarian Whirling Frenzy ACF. Warforged Juggernaut also requires +5 bab to qualify as well, so the combo i chose gave him that by lvl 5.

Plus with his expansion psionic power, which is the same as enlarge person, it would make him a huge nasty freight train lol

[Troacctid]

Well, it's weird because it's not how gestalt normally works.

It's also weird because of the incentive it creates--under that rule, you would simply never multiclass or prestige, ever, because nothing you could multiclass into would be better than a gestalt. Now, technically, this does accomplish the goal of reducing power level, because it effectively limits players to a gestalt between two base classes, with no dipping or prestiging. However, it also creates a major trap option of allowing players to give up their gestalt, even though that's essentially never correct.

[Godskook]

we can only have one gestalt and are going by ph2 rules for gestalt classes.

Does anyone have a page number for this, I can't seem to find it in my copy of Player Handbook 2.

[fishyfishyfishy]

With your tables strange house rules regarding gestalt I would say that your current plan is fine. It's not as powerful as other options but there's nothing wrong with that. You can get some pretty high dpr with a charger. Shock Trooper is probably something you want to pick up. Combat Brute isn't half bad either. After you finish your prestige go back to Barbarian/Psychic Warrior and stick with it. Think about getting yourself a Psicrystal and pulling that trick where it absorbs a lot of your damage for you.

[ShadowcatK]

Well, it's weird because it's not how gestalt normally works.

It's also weird because of the incentive it creates--under that rule, you would simply never multiclass or prestige, ever, because nothing you could multiclass into would be better than a gestalt. Now, technically, this does accomplish the goal of reducing power level, because it effectively limits players to a gestalt between two base classes, with no dipping or prestiging. However, it also creates a major trap option of allowing players to give up their gestalt, even though that's essentially never correct.

well that's not exactly true, i multi classed fighter with a gestalt and am going to be adding a prestige. he just did not want players having more then one gestalt mix on a character and to follow the ph2 rules for gestalts. hes not stopping players from multi-classing or using prestige classes, just limiting the number of gestalt mixes a player can have on a character.

From the way you are all talking, your gms allow multiple gestalts which seams to overpower players hugely or is there something im missing?

[ShadowcatK]

With your tables strange house rules regarding gestalt I would say that your current plan is fine. It's not as powerful as other options but there's nothing wrong with that. You can get some pretty high dpr with a charger. Shock Trooper is probably something you want to pick up. Combat Brute isn't half bad either. After you finish your prestige go back to Barbarian/Psychic Warrior and stick with it. Think about getting yourself a Psicrystal and pulling that trick where it absorbs a lot of your damage for you.

Shock trouper was definitely on my list of feats to get when i get +6 bab and higher. never thought about the psicrystal. good idea! ty fishy!

[Troacctid]

well that's not exactly true, i multi classed fighter with a gestalt and am going to be adding a prestige. he just did not want players having more then one gestalt mix on a character and to follow the ph2 rules for gestalts. hes not stopping players from multi-classing or using prestige classes, just limiting the number of gestalt mixes a player can have on a character.

From the way you are all talking, your gms allow multiple gestalts which seams to overpower players hugely or is there something im missing?
Gestalt is an intentionally high-power variant that allows you to combine two classes at every level, and if it is in use, it is normally applied to all of your levels. It is found in Unearthed Arcana, not Player's Handbook II, and it is available online here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm); there are no gestalt rules in PH2 as far as I'm aware.

While your DM is not banning you from multiclassing or prestiging, he is hugely disincentivizing it by guaranteeing that doing so will make your character less powerful. It's similar to how you're technically allowed to play a half-celestial, but doing so would cripple your character with an unreasonable level adjustment, so nobody does it. That's basically what's going on for multiclass characters here--they're heavily crippled compared to single-class gestalt characters.

[ShadowcatK]

Gestalt is an intentionally high-power variant that allows you to combine two classes at every level, and if it is in use, it is normally applied to all of your levels. It is found in Unearthed Arcana, not Player's Handbook II, -- there are no gestalt rules in PH2 as far as I'm aware.

While your DM is not banning you from multiclassing or prestiging, he is hugely disincentivizing it by guaranteeing that doing so will make your character less powerful. It's similar to how you're technically allowed to play a half-celestial, but doing so would cripple your character with an unreasonable level adjustment, so nobody does it. That's basically what's going on for multiclass characters here--they're heavily crippled compared to single-class gestalt characters.

Yes i read the rules on gestalt before making my character build for warforged Juggernaut and my apologies to all, you are correct its in Unearthed Arcana. BUT it sounds like your telling me your gms allow you to have more then one gestalt mix on a char?! ex swordsage/cleric gestalt and a warblade/wizard gestal on the same character???

[Troacctid]

That's how gestalt is supposed to work.

To make a 1st-level gestalt character, choose two standard classes.
[...]
A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.
Each time you level up, you choose two classes, which may or may not be the same as the classes you took last level. So for your 1st level, you might start as a Barbarian//Wizard. Then you might take your 2nd level as a Fighter//Wizard. Then maybe Fighter//Wizard again as your 3rd level, and Warblade//Master Specialist as your 4th level.

[Godskook]

Yes i read the rules on gestalt before making my character build for warforged Juggernaut and my apologies to all, you are correct its in Unearthed Arcana. BUT it sounds like your telling me your gms allow you to have more then one gestalt mix on a char?! ex swordsage/cleric gestalt and a warblade/wizard gestal on the same character???

You can go Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1//Wizard2/Cleric 1 just fine under normal Gestalt rules(I AM familiar with the UA gestalt rules).

[RoyVG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, does your DM perhaps mean that you can have a normal class progression (BaseclassX/BaseclassY/PrCZ), while gestalting that with a single base class taken for all levels? Something like Barbarian2/Fighter3/Warforged Juggernaut5 // Psychic Warrior 10 ? This would be perfectly legal according to Gestalt.

I get the feeling this is what your DM (should have) intended. If he means that you can only gestalt 2 clasess specifically, I think he'll cause even more problems with powerful players than he's expecting. Someone gestalting 2 levels will be at a much larger disadvantage than someone gestalting for 10 levels.

Under 'normal' circumstances, Gestalting gives you 2 classes at the same time, no matter what classes, as long as you are allowed to do so (alignment restriction, prestige class prerequisites). So if I want to have 20 different base classes for my first 10 levels in Gestalt, I can do that, nothing in the rules (for gestalting) is stopping me from doing it. It's be a crappy character, sure, but I'm allowed to.

[ShadowcatK]

Correct me if I'm wrong, does your DM perhaps mean that you can have a normal class progression (BaseclassX/BaseclassY/PrCZ), while gestalting that with a single base class taken for all levels? Something like Barbarian2/Fighter3/Warforged Juggernaut5 // Psychic Warrior 10 ? This would be perfectly legal according to Gestalt.

Yes doing a normal progression fighter 2/gestalt barbarian/psychic warrior3 then warforged juggernaut 5 is fine with him. it would follow both gestalt and prestige class prerequisites. But he does not want us doing stuff like gestalt warblade/sorcerer 2//gestalt barbarian/psychic warrior 2//gestalt fighter/cleric 1/Warforged Juggernaut 5...even if it meets prestige requirements and is allowable under gestalt rules.


I get the feeling this is what your DM (should have) intended. If he means that you can only gestalt 2 clasess specifically, I think he'll cause even more problems with powerful players than he's expecting. Someone gestalting 2 levels will be at a much larger disadvantage than someone gestalting for 10 levels.

Under 'normal' circumstances, Gestalting gives you 2 classes at the same time, no matter what classes, as long as you are allowed to do so (alignment restriction, prestige class prerequisites). So if I want to have 20 different base classes for my first 10 levels in Gestalt, I can do that, nothing in the rules (for gestalting) is stopping me from doing it. It's be a crappy character, sure, but I'm allowed to.

he knows its not against the gestalt rules and i know you all think it sounds weird but he just does not like us doing more then one gestalt class on a character, he feels its stupid, goes overboard and overpowers the character to much. most of us play single classes or multi-class with prestige's anyway. /shrugs.