[3.5] Swift Hopper build/Psionic questions

[Darrin]

One of my "weak spots" in 3.5 optimization is I've never dealt much with psionics. I've known for some time there are tricks you can use to leverage the action economy, but I've never quite managed to bend my head around the mechanics. But as I pick away at various corners of the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook), I keep coming back to psionics. I'm already familiar with dimension hop and hustle but... how do I get them to work every round, hopefully for very low or possibly even zero PP?

So I dug into the Psionic Tricks Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook), futzed around a bit, and I think I've got something, but I'm still not sure this works the way I think it works.

Anyways, if you can lend your thinkystuff expertise, I'd appreciate it if you could help me deconstruct this:

Race: Silverbrow Human
1) Ardent 1. Feat: Linked Power. Human: Practiced Manifester. Mantles: Freedom, Time (Substitute Powers ACF for synchronicity).
2) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6.
3) Ardent 2. Feat: Metapower. Mantle: Mental Power.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 1. Feat: Psionic Meditation. Bonus: Track. Favored Enemy: Undead.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
9) Barbarian 1. Feat: Midnight Augmentation. Pounce (Spirit Lion), Whirling Frenzy ACF.
10) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
11) Ranger 4. Bonus: Improved TWF (Champion of the Wild ACF).
12) Ranger 5. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Favored Enemy: Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 1.
14) Dragon Devotee 2. Sorcerer 1st. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
15) Dragon Devotee 3. Feat: Draconic Strike. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4.
16) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4.
17) Unseen Seer 1. Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4.
18) Unseen Seer 2. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Unseen Seer 3.
20) Unseen Seer 4. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4.

The trick is:

Linked Power (dimension hop + synchronicity) + Metapower = 0 PP.

Round 1: Swift action = dimension hop (expend focus). Standard action = attack/move/buff/whatever. Move action = regain psionic focus.
Round 2: Swift action = dimension hop (expend focus). Full round = charge + pounce. After turn, readied action = regain focus via synchronicity.
Round 3: Rinse & repeat.

As far as I can tell, this trick works at ECL 6. Midnight Augmentation comes online at 9th, which lets me augment my dimension hop to 20' but only spend 1 PP. Improved Skirmish comes in at 12th, allowing me to jump back 20' and then charge 20' every round. If I run low on PP, I can go back to just boring vanilla skirmish.

Questions, so many questions:

1) Synchronicity doesn't exactly say when it manifests on Round 2, just that I get a readied action that I can use before my next turn. I don't spend any actions or PP to manifest this power, so... can I manifest it right when Round 2 starts, but *before* my turn comes up? If so, then this obviates the need to spend a move action on round 1 to regain my psionic focus. While the RAW here suggests that I can take that readied action at any time during Round 2, and this includes before my turn, it seems like the intent (and common sense) would say it should manifest sometime during my turn. What's the most common interpretation here, can synchronicity happen at any time I want during the next round, or only on my turn?

2) Does taking hustle at Ardent 2 count as having a "2nd level" power? If not, then I don't think I can take Expanded Knowledge to grab synchronicity. And just to be clear, this power costs 2 PP for an Ardent, not 3 PP?

3) Metapower permanently associates dimension hop with Linked Power. In order to use Linked Power, I have to expend my psionic focus. Does this mean that from that point forward, I *MUST* expend my psionic focus to use dimension hop? As in, if I'm not psionically focused, then I absolutely can't use dimension hop?

4) Can Linked Power be used twice on the same power? As in, can dimension hop be linked to both synchronicity and hustle? (I'm guessing "No".)

5) Can I "chain" another Linked Power to synchronicity? For example, can I use Linked Power + another Metepower to link synchronicity to, say, hustle? So when I activate dimension hop on round 1, I get synchronicity in round 2, and that gives me hustle on round 3? Or can I create a recursive loop with Linked Power and two Metapowers: dimension hop -> synchronicity, and then synchronicity -> dimension hop, so those keep looping back and forth every round? (If so, is there any way to stop the loop?)

6) Linked Power says the first power "is not altered in any way", does this mean I can't augment it?

7) Can I augment the second power if I want to? If so, then presumably I'd pay the augmented cost on the first round rather than the second round?

8) Can I use Linked Power twice during the same round? For example, I've already got dimension hop linked to synchronicity. I've still got a standard action on Round 1, so let's say I manifest metaphysical weapon and use Linked Power to link it to synchronicity for 2 PP, so I get two readed actions next round. I think this would require expending two psionic foci, so... Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment?

9) Midnight Augmentation says I need to expend my psionic focus to take advantage of the reduced augmentation. Is this a separate cost specifically to activate Midnight Augmentation, or does expending my psionic focus for Linked Power "count" for the purposes of Midnight Augmentation? (As near as I can tell, even if the intent was to require expending just for using Midnight Augmentation, the RAW text doesn't particularly seem to care why exactly you're expending your focus, all that matters is that you're expending it.)

10) Do reduced PPs count toward the cap on my manifester level? I only have ML = 2 here, so I can only spend 2 PP max on any power. When I activate dimension hop, I am "spending" 2 PP, but Metapower reduces this to zero PP. When I augment it, I am "spending" 2 PP on top of that, but Midnight Augmentation reduces that to 1 PP. So as far as my "cap" of 2 ML is concerned, did I spend 4 PP or 1 PP?

[ATHATH]

If you can slip in a Practiced Manifester into your feat selection, you should take it and delay your second level of Ardent to 6th level. Due to the Ardent's unique mechanics, this will give you higher level Powers.

[WhamBamSam]

Psionic Meditation requires 7 ranks in Concentration which you presumably do not have at level 1.

1. If you're referring to the Synchronicity you linked to your first Dimension Hop, then in context, I would say "next round" in Linked Power refers to the start of your next turn. So you should have a readied action that you can use somewhere between turns 2 and 3.

2. You can't take Hustle at Ardent 2 unless you somehow increase your ML. If you instead wen Ardent 1/Scout X/Ardent +1 with Practiced Manifester jammed in there somewhere, that'd work. The good news is that with the Substitute Powers ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) you should be able to just make Synchronicity your first level Magic Mantle power and so free up a feat for Practiced Manifester.

3. That would be my reading.

4. Maybe if you had a second Psionic Focus to expend (as with Psycrystal Containment), otherwise, no.

5. Maybe? Though even if that does work you'll need to get your Psionic Focus back in between rounds to keep the chain from breaking.

6. I would assume that you can still augment the first power. There's no reason why the augmented version of the power can't be what you're linking to/what isn't altered.

7. Sure. And yes, you would need to pay the augment cost on the second power as part of your use of Linked Power on the first round. The total augment cost of the two powers cannot exceed your ML.

8. If you have a second psionic focus to work with, then yes, that works.

9. Seems to me you can't expend your psionic focus once for two separate results. In context, I'd say that you're expending of Psionic Focus for Midnight Augmentation, which means you can't also do it for Linked Power unless you have an extra one.

10. I think 1 PP. If the PP aren't spent, you aren't spending them.

[Darrin]

If you can slip in a Practiced Manifester into your feat selection, you should take it and delay your second level of Ardent to 6th level. Due to the Ardent's unique mechanics, this will give you higher level Powers.

This is laudable advice, but outside my current scope at the moment. Right now I'm just trying to focus on the powers that can get me just enough movement to trigger skirmish.


Psionic Meditation requires 7 ranks in Concentration which you presumably do not have at level 1.


Ah... good catch. Hrmph. I will need to rearrange some things, or switch to Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc.



2. You can't take Hustle at Ardent 2 unless you somehow increase your ML.


How is hustle not a valid choice at Ardent 2? It's the 2nd power of the Freedom mantle, and costs 2 points to manifest.

Or rather, how exactly do Ardents learn new powers, because the text in Complete Psionic is confusing...



9. Seems to me you can't expend your psionic focus once for two separate results. In context, I'd say that you're expending of Psionic Focus for Midnight Augmentation, which means you can't also do it for Linked Power unless you have an extra one.


Can you point me to the text that says specifically that I have to expend my psionic focus on Midnight Augmentation (as opposed to any other reason I might expend my psionic focus)? The text says:

"If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power, the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia."

(And yes, I am aware I'm being deliberately pedantic on this point.)

[WhamBamSam]

How is hustle not a valid choice at Ardent 2? It's the 2nd power of the Freedom mantle, and costs 2 points to manifest.

Or rather, how exactly do Ardents learn new powers, because the text in Complete Psionic is confusing... 2nd level powers cost 3PP to manifest. Therein lies your issue.


Can you point me to the text that says specifically that I have to expend my psionic focus on Midnight Augmentation (as opposed to any other reason I might expend my psionic focus)? The text says:

"If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting that power, the power point cost to augment that power is reduced by a value equal to the invested essentia."

(And yes, I am aware I'm being deliberately pedantic on this point.)Fair enough. I guess. As RAW pedantry goes, you could do worse.

[Darrin]

2nd level powers cost 3PP to manifest. Therein lies your issue.


Well, aside from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html), here's what's confusing me (Complete Psionic p. 7):

"At each additional level, an ardent learns one new power from her available mantles. She must be able to manifest the new power at the level at which she learns it, however. For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost."

My understanding is that at 5th level, I can take any power on my mantles where PP = 5 or lower, so if I take a "5", that's a "5th level power". If I took freedom of movement from the Freedom mantle, how do I determine what level it is? 5th mantle = 5th level, 5 PP = 3rd level as per Table 4-2 in the XPH, or is it 4th according to the Psion/Wilder list of powers?

I can't really see were the text ever actually refers to the powers on the mantles by their "level". So if I'm a 9th level Ardent with the Law mantle and I take timeless body as my power, the Law mantle never explicitly says this is a "9th level power", just that it costs 9 PP. (In fact, I thought this was the whole point of the "trick" of getting 9th level powers via an Ardent dip + Practiced Spellcaster/Practiced Manifester.)

But if I go back into XPH and look up timeless body, it quite explicitly says it's a 9th level power for Psions and Wilders (no mention of Ardent). Likewise, Ardent says I can absolutely take hustle at 2nd level because it only costs 2 PP as per the Freedom mantle, and when I look up hustle in the XPH, it says it's 3rd level Egoist and 2nd level Psychic Warrior... which isn't nearly as conclusive of a point as I was hoping to make.

Anyway, the mantles in Complete Psionic do not appear to adhere to Table 4-2 in the XPH, which determines the PP cost according to a power's level. I don't see any indication that you must use Table 4-2 to reverse-engineer the mantles to determine the level based on the PP cost, as the 2 PP, 4 PP, 6 PP and 8 PP powers don't correspond to that table.

As far as I can determine, the intent with Ardents was that the numerical value on the mantle is an indication both of the PP cost and the power level. Other than Table 4-2, which doesn't appear to apply to Ardents, is there any other indication in the text that this is not the case?

[Troacctid]

It is not the case. It only indicates the power's level. The PP cost is as normal for a power of that level.

Look up some of the CPs powers and it will say what level they are for their mantles. For example, Psionic Shadow Walk is a 5th level power in the Light and Darkness mantle. It costs 9 PP.

[Darrin]

It is not the case. It only indicates the power's level. The PP cost is as normal for a power of that level.

Look up some of the CPs powers and it will say what level they are for their mantles. For example, Psionic Shadow Walk is a 5th level power in the Light and Darkness mantle. It costs 9 PP.

Ok, I think I got it now. I don't know what I was looking at before that convinced me that the numbers on the mantles corresponded to PP, but when I look at the power descriptions, yes, the PP follows Table 4-2.

So I do need Practiced Manifester to qualify for 2nd level powers. I was hoping to avoid the Substitute Powers ACF (susceptible to DM's whimsy), but it may have to do... and besides, how does synchronicity not belong in the Time mantle!?!? Well, maybe the Law mantle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity_(The_Police_album)), too.

[Darrin]

Ok, first, it took me way too long to realize Hidden Talent is much more effective at what I want to do than Expanded Knowledge.

Second, I should have taken a closer look at all of the Mind's Eye: Expanded Classes articles, because Mantled Wilder does pretty much everything I want without resorting to either Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge.

And third, I figured out that Unseen Seer 1/Highland Stalker 2 is a bit more efficient than Unseen Seer 4. It frees up a level... not sure what's the best thing to do with it, but for the moment let's slip in a level of Warblade.

Updated build:

Race: Silverbrow Human
1) Mantled Wilder 1. Feat: Linked Power. Human: Quick Recovery.
2) Scout 1. Skirmish 1d6.
3) Mantled Wilder 2. Feat: Metapower. Mantle: Freedom.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Ranger 1. Feat: Psionic Meditation. Bonus: Track. FE Undead
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
9) Barbarian 1. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Pounce (Spirit Lion), Whirling Frenzy ACF.
10) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
11) Ranger 4. Bonus: Improved TWF (Champion of the Wild ACF).
12) Ranger 5. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. FE Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
13) Warblade 1. Punishing Stance, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mountain Hammer, Iron Heart Surge.
14) Dragon Devotee 1.
15) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Greater TWF. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
16) Dragon Devotee 3. Sorcerer 1st.
17) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4.
18) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Dragonfire Strike. Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4.
19) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Indigo Strike.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4.

The other thing Wilder does is remove the need for Midnight Augmentation, as I can now augment up to 20' for only 1 PP. Downside is Psychic Enervation 5%, and I'm not sure how to mitigate that. A few methods come to mind:

A) Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness). Costs a move action, but gives me a Will save vs dazed. Will save in the build is mostly poor, Moment of Perfect Mind + max Concentration ranks should help make up for this, but I lose most of a round just dealing with the fallout of psychic enervation and it breaks up the dimension hop/synchronicity chain: move to use Quick Recovery, swift/immediate for Moment of Perfect Mind. Then again, losing one round out of 20 might not be a bad deal in the long run for 19 rounds of Improved Skirmish.

B) Postpone Enervation (Complete Psionic). Not sure this is worth it... the dip into Warblade gets me Iron Heart Surge, and once the enervation has a duration (3 rounds), can I get rid of it with IHS? I think so... in fact, I think I can use synchronicity to ready Iron Heart Surge to trigger when I get dazed, since a readied action immediately precedes the effect. I'll have to use a move action to regain my psionic focus, but I will still have a swift available to keep the chain going. However, if I do get rid of the enervation, then Postpone Enervation says I can't Wild Surge... ever again, apparently, because I never voluntary went through with the enervation, and will never go through enervation again because I don't get Wild Surge back until I've been through it.

C) Third Eye Clarity (3000 GP, MIC). Sucks up an immediate action, but between this and Moment of Perfect Mind, I can shrug off bad luck striking twice in the same encounter. No attunement required either, so I can buy several backups for multiple encounters.

I am still puzzled about the exact timing of the enervation, though... it says it happens immediately after the Wild Surge, but it's not clear to me when the Wild Surge ends... when I'm done manifesting the power, or when the power has already taken effect? Or rather, do I become dazed just before or just after I dimension hop for 20'?

[Darrin]

I did have a question about Wild Surges... maybe I should number it:

11. I am still puzzled about the exact timing of the enervation, though... it says it happens immediately after the Wild Surge, but it's not clear to me when the Wild Surge ends... when I'm done manifesting the power, or when the power has already taken effect? Or rather, do I become dazed just before or just after I dimension hop for 20'?

Some other things I've discovered about psionic combos:


The MoI Recharge trick doesn't work like the handbook says it does. Midnight Augmentation only works when you augment a power, and the trick as written isn't augmenting bestow power at all. You'd have to augment bestow power at least once (6 PP) to provide 4 PP. 1 + 6 = 7 PP, -2 for Metapower, and with two essentia in Midnight Metamagic you can get this down to spending 3 PP to get 4 PP, net gain of 1 PP.
A similar trick is much easier to do with Wilder 4. Synchronicity and bestow power are both on the Wilder list to begin with. All you need is Midnight Augmentation and 1 essentia (provided along with the feat). Use Wild Surge +2 to augment bestow power up to 6 PP, Midnight Augmentation reduces this by -1, and Wild Surge provides another -2. There's a 10% chance of psychic enervation hitting you for -6 PP, but in the long run you should come out ahead: 9 rounds of +1 PP, 1 round of -6 PP = average of about 1.4 PP per minute (assuming a full-round to regain psionic focus). Psionic Meditation can increase this to about 2.8 PP per minute, and Enervation Endurance can reduce the lost PPs by half, so about 5.8 PP per minute.
Earth Power (Races of Stone) can be used with Wilder 4 to get a net of +1 PP, but it requires an additional feat, and it doesn't work with anything that requires you to expend your psionic focus (so no Metapower/Midnight Augmentation shenanigans).
Although you effectively have an infinite supply PP, you only have a single 1st level power (that isn't synchronicity or bestow power) to spend it on.


12. Another question. It's not clear to me if I'm Wilder 6 (or higher), can I use the Wild Surge +2 trick to get +1 PP with bestow power? Since my ML is already 6, I don't really need to use Wild Surge to increase my ML. Can I Wild Surge up to ML 8, but only augment bestow power once, using Midnight Augmentation and Wild Surge to provide the additional 3 PP?