Spells (and strategies) for an almost exclusively undead opponent campaign

[Willie the Duck]

Here's the situation: Our DM is setting up his campaign to be a battle between the forces of Tyr and Bane (FR obviously). His dungeons are about 85-90% undead, with the remainder being the occasional non-necropolitan necromancer, vicious rats, a few swamp abberations, etc.

Obviously, most enchantments are ineffective. By his ruling, almost all illusions are ineffective (I haven't looked back into the 3.5 rules on illusions to determine if this is btb. It doesn't matter, because he has ruled it thus). Because we are Tyr followers, and also because we could get burned at the stake in this imaging of FR, raising our own undead army to fight the Banite undead army isn't possible. This puts a severe limit on the traditional batman wizard/focus on battlefield control/save-or-suck spells I've been taught to favor for 3.5. Likewise for the cleric, the DM has banned divine metamagic and most other metamagic cheats that make CoDzilla get off the ground. The divine favor/might etc. cleric is no longer so uber.

I don't disagree with these changes. They are trying to address the whole tier 1 nightmare that I admit I've griped about when my archer or bard was feeling useless. That said, I no longer know what to do with a wizard or cleric in that situation. Do I go back to the pre-3e model (mostly blaster wizard and turn-undead and healbot cleric)? What are some winning spell selections and strategies for this kind of situation?

Thanks in advance!

[Raezeman]

just one general answer: check out the libris mortis. While it has loads of stuff for characters that use undead, it also has stuff to fight undead.

2 prestige classes jump to mind: the master of radiance and the sacred purifier. The first is not so good i would say, unless against stuff that are weak against sunlight. The second one literally has 'specializes in destroying undead' in the description, so it seems to be what you want.

there are also some feats to fight undead, and as i haven't read the whole thing maybe loads more.

[Flickerdart]

Your battlefield control isn't compromised in any way - enchantment and illusion are crappy schools that you can now ban. Things like black tentacles and grease work just fine.

To raise an army, how does Tyr feel about constructs or bound outsiders? You can also (ab)use Handle Animal to get battletitans and stuff.

[Doctor Despair]

A good spell for this campaign might be Hide from Undead. An illusion-like abjuration :)

[Hecuba]

Your DM is likely correct regarding illusions: specifically, mind effecting illusions won't work against mindless undead.

Most spells available under your constraints that are specifically anti-undead are blasty. The extra damage they do to undead makes blasting more viable in the context, but it is still blasting. There are some decent abjurations to hedge them out as well, but they are fewer in number.

It's worth noting that an optimized heal bot can be a decent anti-undead blaster as well, but that might not be in the cards for FR (Mastery of Day and Night and Prophecy's Shepherd are both from Eberron, and they are Capital I Important).

If you want to go with BFC instead, you simply need to go with physical BFC tactics film TransmutationConjuration and Evocation. Grease, Web, Walls, black tentacles, etc.

[Morcleon]

Everyone in your party should get a Shirt of Wraith Stalking from the MIC. For 6000 gp, you get a constant Hide From Undead effect with no save, not even for intelligent undead. :smallbiggrin:

[Janthkin]

Shadowcraft Mage - your Illusions CAN hurt things now. ;)

Radiant Servant of not-Pelor? Pick up a Rod of Defiance, a Truedeath Crystal, a Circlet of Persuasion, and stock up on the "Light of..." spells from Complete Champion, and you can wreck whole swathes of an undead army, while still being a standard cleric.

[Psyren]

Regarding illusions - it seems to be a moot point, but some do work on mindless undead, specifically figments and glamers. You can use Invisibility to sneak past zombies or hide behind a Silent Image of a brick wall - as long as they don't interact with it, they get no save to disbelieve.

Beyond that, as Flickerdart said, you have plenty of control spells in the Conjuration school. Solid Fog in a chokepoint will stop a zombie horde quite effectively, and skeletons can slip on Sleet Storm just as easily as a humanoid opponent (if not moreso.)

Remember also that the vast majority of undead are evil-aligned, so spells and metamagic that target evil creatures can get a lot of mileage out of such a campaign. BoED has several offensive spells that will do reduced or zero harm to your party while damaging or impeding the undead, and the Exalted Arcanist prestige class is a good choice if your team has a sorcerer or even a bard.

[DrMartin]

I've played in such a campaign! from level 1 to 18th. Ended fighting the concept/god of undeath itself (which turned out to be the concept/god of reincarnation gone insane when the resident megalomaniac evil wizard managed to grant It a single second of respite from giving its whole attention to the wheel of reincarnation, giving It a single instant of introspection to realize the futility of its perennial endeavor. Good times!)

Undead are can have nasty abilities but there's so many character options to deal with them it's not even funny. Tell your rogue to pick up the ACF that allows him to deal some sneak attack to the buggers. Unusual feats choices like Sanctify Spell or Disciple of the Sun become suddenly very good.

If there's psionics at your table, the Ghostbreaker PrC from Hyperconscious is really strong.

[Coidzor]

Turn Undead Optimization will allow you to turn undead that are a fair bit more powerful than you and to dust any undead that you turn.

Taking out the leadership corps of the undead army will split it into smaller components and have sections of it go completely uncontrolled, greatly reducing the efficacy of such undead, even if they can still be brought to the field.

Seems strange that he's made mindless undead have truesight against illusions, though, but I guess that means that, hey, a Killer Gnome is going to have fun with them being more damaged than they should be by illusory effects.

Inspire Courage + several different energy types of Dragonfire Inspiration + Alphorns or Wardrums + a Warchanter for Song of the Legion would make an army of ordinary level 1 warriors, or even a rabble of commoners, hit way above their weight class.

A warforged or similar with a Lyre of Building can bury or trap a significant swath of an army of undead and act as bait to draw out leadership or special forces. Alternatively, the lyre of building could be used to divide or entrap their forces prior to a mundane attack or even during a battle, especially a prolonged one. Several of them used for different sections of the army could ensure that your forces always have the high ground advantage to hit or force enemy forces to advance through ditch after ditch, so that many enemies are cut down while climbing.

[Bohandas]

Clerics and paladins are useful, at least once you reach a high enough level that turn undead is reliable

[ATHATH]

Step One: Be an Sorcerer, Sha'ir, or other CHA-based arcane spellcaster and have a 3rd level SLA (you don't NEED one, but it's handy to get into Paragnostic Apostle faster).
Step Two: Dip a level of Cleric.
Step Three: Start taking levels of Paragnostic Apostle, choosing See Through the Veil as your level-up ability whenever you can. Advance it with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster to progress it past 5th level.
Step Four: Dip a level of Silver Pyromancer.
Step Five: Spam Purge Undead for loads of untyped damage. You get (your CL + your (boosted to almost twice its normal level) Turning Level)d6 damage to all undead within 30 ft. on it, with a Will save of (1/2(CL+TL)+CHA+10) for half. In other words, every undead creature within 30 ft. of you is (re)dead unless it can survive almost triple your ECL (if you used early entry for Paragnostic Apostle) in d6's of damage or make an incredibly high Will Save.
Step Six: Take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Turning feats, if you want more damage and a higher save DC for Purge Undead or more uses of Purge Undead per day, respectively.
Step 7: Use Leadership to gain a cohort with an identical build to yours (except 2 levels lower).
Step 8: Profit.

[DrMartin]

Step One: Be an Sorcerer, Sha'ir, or other CHA-based arcane spellcaster and have a 3rd level SLA (you don't NEED one, but it's handy to get into Paragnostic Apostle faster).
Step Two: Dip a level of Cleric.
Step Three: Start taking levels of Paragnostic Apostle, choosing See Through the Veil as your level-up ability whenever you can. Advance it with Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster to progress it past 5th level.
Step Four: Dip a level of Silver Pyromancer.
Step Five: Spam Purge Undead for loads of untyped damage. You get (your CL + your (boosted to almost twice its normal level) Turning Level)d6 damage to all undead within 30 ft. on it, with a Will save of (1/2(CL+TL)+CHA+10) for half. In other words, every undead creature within 30 ft. of you is (re)dead unless it can survive almost triple your ECL (if you used early entry for Paragnostic Apostle) in d6's of damage or make an incredibly high Will Save.
Step Six: Take Practiced Spellcaster and Extra Turning feats, if you want more damage and a higher save DC for Purge Undead or more uses of Purge Undead per day, respectively.
Step 7: Use Leadership to gain a cohort with an identical build to yours (except 2 levels lower).
Step 8: Profit.

the silver flame is based in Eberron. From OP's post I get the impression that the DM will want to stick to Faerun's fluff.

(On the other hand, if Eberron is allowed, you don't need the cleric dip, you can get Arcane Disciple for the Exorcism domain to learn Dispel Evil as a Sorc spell, and then take levels in Sacred Exorcist)

[Willie the Duck]

Seems strange that he's made mindless undead have truesight against illusions, though, but I guess that means that, hey, a Killer Gnome is going to have fun with them being more damaged than they should be by illusory effects.

Nope. It's pretty straightforward. I'm pretty sure his logic is along the lines of "skeletons don't have eyeballs, thus they aren't really 'seeing' the PCs. Therefore they have some kind of preternatural sense that tells them where the walls are, and where the pcs are, and that sense isn't fooled by illusions." Or maybe it's just an overexpansion of the "not subject to mind-affecting spells." Either way, it is silly, but no more silly than the RAW rules (intelligent undead can't be charmed because...?).

[Willie the Duck]

Step One: Be an Sorcerer, Sha'ir, or other CHA-based arcane spellcaster and have a 3rd level SLA (you don't NEED one, but it's handy to get into Paragnostic Apostle faster).
Step Two: Dip a level of Cleric.
Step Three: Start taking levels of Paragnostic Apostle...<snip>

I should stipulate, this campaign is core plus the complete ___ series. No Sha'ir, ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, etc.
Good advice in general though.

[Necroticplague]

Thanks to lack of a con score and undead HD not having a good fort save, anything that can target their Fort is pretty good. Distintegrate and Glass Strike are two notable examples.

[ATHATH]

the silver flame is based in Eberron. From OP's post I get the impression that the DM will want to stick to Faerun's fluff.

(On the other hand, if Eberron is allowed, you don't need the cleric dip, you can get Arcane Disciple for the Exorcism domain to learn Dispel Evil as a Sorc spell, and then take levels in Sacred Exorcist)
You'd still need Turn Undead, though.

[Bohandas]

Nope. It's pretty straightforward. I'm pretty sure his logic is along the lines of "skeletons don't have eyeballs, thus they aren't really 'seeing' the PCs. Therefore they have some kind of preternatural sense that tells them where the walls are, and where the pcs are, and that sense isn't fooled by illusions."

I've gotten that impression as well (though as far as I know it doesn't match the rules as written)

[OldTrees1]

Because we are Tyr followers, and also because we could get burned at the stake in this imaging of FR, raising our own undead army to fight the Banite undead army isn't possible.

Just checking, does this mean you cannot cast Command Undead on sections of the Banite army to create infighting and then use Greater Turning to mop up the leftovers(including any remaining under your influence)?

[Willie the Duck]

Just checking, does this mean you cannot cast Command Undead on sections of the Banite army to create infighting and then use Greater Turning to mop up the leftovers(including any remaining under your influence)?

That's a great question. I suspect that that would be fine. Creating our own army of undead and marching around with them, however, is definitely out.

[OldTrees1]

That's a great question. I suspect that that would be fine. Creating our own army of undead and marching around with them, however, is definitely out.

Then Chain Command Undead is the 5th level spell you need. Choose your targets carefully so the disruption of the enemy's formation is maximized. It is likely the DM will use Cha checks to determine which of the two masters the mindless undead obey when given conflicting orders.

If you are only facing mindless undead:
Target the 2nd or 3rd row of undead and have them attack the other. This leaves you room to cleanup the 1st row while your enemy tanks for you.

If facing mindless undead and some specialty undead(ghouls or wights):
Target the mindless undead surrounding(or a wall if surrounding is too many targets) the specialty undead. Not only will they damage the specialty undead but they will pin them down and delay them.

If you are facing a necromancer:
Target undead in a 2-3 wide path to the necromancer. Then have them engage to the right and left to open up a path to reach the necromancer. If you can target more undead then focus on the rear row to further isolate the necromancer.

Just remember to dispose of the remainder when the battle is over.

[DrMartin]

You'd still need Turn Undead, though.

you get that when you do the Sacred Exorcist thing

[Coidzor]

I've gotten that impression as well (though as far as I know it doesn't match the rules as written)

It does not.

You're unnecessarily buffing them by giving them lifesense, lifesight, and true sight most likely.

[Bohandas]

It does not.

You're unnecessarily buffing them by giving them lifesense, lifesight, and true sight most likely.
Or possibly supernatural blindsight as an extraordinary ability

[ATHATH]

you get that when you do the Sacred Exorcist thing
But that puts you 5 levels or so behind on Turning.

[Jowgen]

You want Soulfire armor, BoED. Death effect, Energy Drain and Negative Energy immunity are so vital when dealing with undead. It's pricey, but seriously, get it ASAP in a campaign like this. Don't care what character you're playing.

For a fun crack at good offence, I suggest an Exalted feat of much debateableness: Touch of Golden Ice. Every time you come into physical contact with an undead, they must make a Fort save (DC 15 normally, DM might rule scaling DC) or take Dex damage equal to 1d6 plus 1 (if evil) plus their own Cha modifier. More if they're also Evil clerics. Explicitly works on undead btw, despite the poison-type mechanic and Fort-save targeting.

Undead have terrible Fort saves and many types have high Cha to compensate for certain things. A level 1 character with this feat can down a friggin Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) with one hit if they get lucky.

[ATHATH]

There's an argument out there that ToGI actually DOES scale. It's detailed here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454292-Touch-of-Golden-Ice-Increasing-the-Save-DC

[Necroticplague]

You can take Ability Focus (Touch of Golden Ice) to boost the save DC of ToGI by two.

Actually, that's pretty questionable. It's actually pretty questionable that the save is even needed. Covered the reasons in a previous thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416128-Touch-of-golden-ice-feat&highlight=golden+ice)

[Shalist]

Everyone in your party should get a Shirt of Wraith Stalking from the MIC. For 6000 gp, you get a constant Hide From Undead effect with no save, not even for intelligent undead. :smallbiggrin:

+1 for being able to fart in a lich's face without them noticing.

The 'cheapest' anti-undead spell in the game though is unquestionably 'celestial brilliance,' (BoED 94)

It creates a light source that last 1 day/level, and all undead within 60' take 1d6/round (2d6 for evil outsiders and photosensitive undead). Honestly, other than changing out a few street lights, its very difficult to use this spell in a non-broken way. (i.e. casting it on a 500' rope; or on a miles-long 'wire fence' shoved into the ground to catch incorporeals; casting it on an arrow so that it zaps all undead along its flight path; simply maximize it, or take 1 level of Radiant Servant to auto-widen it; etc.).

[Willie the Duck]

It is a great spell. Likely one the DM would ban after one scenario we ruined. :smallbiggrin: We do have a friendly undead (necropolitan) on our team, so working around that would prove challenging, but perhaps fun.