Knocking someone unconscious, with a sap

[Max Caysey]

I have some questions about how to best knock someone out without making too much noise.

1) Does a rogue get to add his sneak attack bonus damage to the non-leathal damage, when using a sap? - thus increasing the chance of succes?

2) Is is possible for a hidden rogue to make a coup de gras one someone with a sap? (Assuming the rogue has sneaked up on a guard from behind)

I want to make clear that we play with facing in our game - so none of that rotating omni-scanning guards in our game.

Thanks

[Xuldarinar]

1- Yes. I believe it is actually explicitly stated.

2- I think so? Im not actually sure on that one. Perhaps someone else has the answer.

[nyjastul69]

The answer to #2 is no. A creature has to be helpless in order to deliver a coup de grace. The guard as you describe him is not helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless).

[KillianHawkeye]

This has the unfortunate side effect of a sap being virtually worthless in the hands of someone who doesn't get Sneak Attack (or Sudden Strike), and making it pretty much impossible for a big, strong, warrior-type guy to knock out anyone who's higher than 1st level.

[Droopy McCool]

This has the unfortunate side effect of a sap being virtually worthless in the hands of someone who doesn't get Sneak Attack (or Sudden Strike), and making it pretty much impossible for a big, strong, warrior-type guy to knock out anyone who's higher than 1st level.

At that point just power attack and eat the -4 for nonlethal. It would be against FFAC in this case, so probably not too hard.

McCool

[Psyren]

This has the unfortunate side effect of a sap being virtually worthless in the hands of someone who doesn't get Sneak Attack (or Sudden Strike), and making it pretty much impossible for a big, strong, warrior-type guy to knock out anyone who's higher than 1st level.

Saps might be useless for non-rogues but your second part doesn't follow at all. You don't have to use a sap - any melee weapon can be used nonlethally by simply taking an attack penalty, and if you're catching the guard flatfooted as in the example, then chances are that they lose so much AC that said penalty doesn't even matter. So you can completely wreck somebody with a 2-handed Power Attack warhammer (etc) and opt to do nonlethal, knocking their block off in one hit without killing them. And if you're in the habit of knocking out enemies and don't want to take a penalty, you can put Merciful on your weapon instead.

Ninja'd by Droopy

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This has the unfortunate side effect of a sap being virtually worthless in the hands of someone who doesn't get Sneak Attack (or Sudden Strike)A psionic manifester can add the power leech ability (+8,000 gp, Lost Empires of Faerun) to a sap, give his psicrystal a psi-like ability via a CPsi host feat, and beat his psicrystal harmlessly to refill his pp supply. If the psicrystal doesn't have pp, it doesn't get drained, but the wielder of the sap still gets pp from it, even if no damage is actually dealt.

[Urpriest]

Note, in particular, that you can't sneak up on a guard from behind. Guards regularly turn around to check behind them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Note, in particular, that you can't sneak up on a guard from behind. Guards regularly turn around to check behind them.That's what the Hide skill and various forms of invisibility are for.

[Psyren]

Note, in particular, that you can't sneak up on a guard from behind. Guards regularly turn around to check behind them.

Tell that to the Children of the Light :smalltongue:

(Or the Queen's Guard, or the Beefeaters, or...)

[The Viscount]

1. Yes you totally can, and it's nonlethal damage. The rule for it is on the srd for rogues sneak attack class feature.

2. No. As mentioned, the target has to be helpless for you to CdG. In addition here's a bit of a thing to consider. The text on regeneration mentions that you can only CdG them with something that deals lethal damage. I'm not sure on how CdG with nonlethal works on a normal creature.

[KillianHawkeye]

At that point just power attack and eat the -4 for nonlethal. It would be against FFAC in this case, so probably not too hard.

McCool


Saps might be useless for non-rogues but your second part doesn't follow at all. You don't have to use a sap - any melee weapon can be used nonlethally by simply taking an attack penalty, and if you're catching the guard flatfooted as in the example, then chances are that they lose so much AC that said penalty doesn't even matter. So you can completely wreck somebody with a 2-handed Power Attack warhammer (etc) and opt to do nonlethal, knocking their block off in one hit without killing them. And if you're in the habit of knocking out enemies and don't want to take a penalty, you can put Merciful on your weapon instead.

Ninja'd by Droopy

I'm not saying that warriors can't knock people out, they just can't do it in one hit from stealth/surprise. Even with Power Attack, you just can't get enough damage from a single hit most of the time. Most Fighters and Barbarians rely on finding ways to take their full attack in order to deal lots of damage. The other main source of damage is pimping out your charge attack, but charging isn't even slightly stealthy, and charging full speed at someone just to knock them unconscious isn't a thing I've ever seen on TV or in a movie.

I realize that D&D isn't a good system for modeling pop culture fighting tropes, and I'm not complaining about that. I was just pointing out that this was a good example of how the game doesn't do that. This is all just a side effect of characters having dozens of hit points.

[Jormengand]

Coups de grace still have a chance to kill, not knock out, even if the damage you deal is nonlethal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Coups de grace still have a chance to kill, not knock out, even if the damage you deal is nonlethal."You killed him!"

"It's just a flesh wound!"

"There's brains all over the wall!"

"He'll get better."

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can bring down someone quitely if you're a solid grappler with either a garrote (merciful if you insist) or the chokehold feat. Choke the fool out.

You can also bring down a guard silently as an assassin with your death attack's paralysis effect. Lock 'em down, then beat them unconcious. Or just murder them in cold blood. :belkar:

[Droopy McCool]

I'm not saying that warriors can't knock people out, they just can't do it in one hit from stealth/surprise. Even with Power Attack, you just can't get enough damage from a single hit most of the time. Most Fighters and Barbarians rely on finding ways to take their full attack in order to deal lots of damage. The other main source of damage is pimping out your charge attack, but charging isn't even slightly stealthy, and charging full speed at someone just to knock them unconscious isn't a thing I've ever seen on TV or in a movie.

Well, they don't get a bonus for using stealth, sure, but who says 2d6 + (1.5 * str) + (2 * PA bonus) won't knock someone out? As for full attack, just sneak within 5 feet of the guy and wait until the next round to hit him, which makes no difference at levels 1-5. I can't imagine you're fighting guards with enough HP at low levels to just blow that off.

McCool

[Telonius]

charging full speed at someone just to knock them unconscious isn't a thing I've ever seen on TV or in a movie.

The Flash is probably a special case.

[Max Caysey]

Note, in particular, that you can't sneak up on a guard from behind. Guards regularly turn around to check behind them.

They do indeed, but they do not spinn around like a crazy person. I would say, that its very dependent on the situation. If the alarm has been rased, sure, the guard is on high alert. But at 3 in the morning... at a quite part of town... Or inside the barracks, he might only look behind him once every 30 secunds...

[Psyren]

I'd say "he might look behind him at the wrong moment" is represented by the opposed Stealth roll. It's one of those random factors that the roll itself is intended to encapsulate.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Flash is probably a special case.

Yes. Yes he is. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

I'd say "he might look behind him at the wrong moment" is represented by the opposed Stealth roll. It's one of those random factors that the roll itself is intended to encapsulate.

My point is, you still need cover/concealment to hide. If it's full daylight in an open field then no, you're not sneaking up behind a guard in D&D, they're going to at least glance behind themselves often enough that that's not viable.

[Max Caysey]

My point is, you still need cover/concealment to hide. If it's full daylight in an open field then no, you're not sneaking up behind a guard in D&D, they're going to at least glance behind themselves often enough that that's not viable.

Thats why I specifically mentioned, that we do play with facing, if he is not looking you are effectivly behind cover from his own head. I would deem it up to the dm to deside when the guard is turning around!

[Urpriest]

Thats why I specifically mentioned, that we do play with facing, if he is not looking you are effectivly behind cover from his own head. I would deem it up to the dm to deside when the guard is turning around!

Ah, I had missed that point.

Then this whole discussion depends on your facing rules. When you attack someone from behind, are they considered flanked? Or is there another status involved?

[Max Caysey]

Ah, I had missed that point.

Then this whole discussion depends on your facing rules. When you attack someone from behind, are they considered flanked? Or is there another status involved?

Well to be precise we employ a heavy amount of buildings from 4ground... and miniatures too, so they face what ever way the miniature is facing (most of the time) We assulted the watchtower last saturday... it was very fun to do it with buildings and miniature 100%.

However they are not flanked, but indeed flat-footed, if they have not notised anyone...