Why are 'Hold' spells Wisdom saves?

[GanonBoar]

One thing confuses me about the Hold spells: why do they require a Wisdom saving throw instead of Constitution? If I'm not mistaken, almost all other paralysis inducing effects are Con saves, and I don't see any reason for these spells to target Wis.

[Ace Jackson]

One thing confuses me about the Hold spells: why do they require a Wisdom saving throw instead of Constitution? If I'm not mistaken, almost all other paralysis inducing effects are Con saves, and I don't see any reason for these spells to target Wis.

I've interpreted these spells as imposing a mental restraint, such as white noise in the mind to the point that coordinated movement is impossible without a strong will, as opposed to entangle, which has a direct physical hindrance. This is only a first pass at the issue though, and probably leaves something to be desired I've not considered here.

[R.Shackleford]

Ever see a movie or read a manga where the hero was mentally stopped from protecting their friends as their friends were about to be hurt? And at the last second the hero breaks free based on pure willpower? Yeah, that is what they want.

However it hasn't always worked out well like that. I mean, its good to watch on tv or read about but in actual play... What typically happens is that hero stays stuck until after the friends are dead :smallannoyed:. Especially when its a martial that doesn't have a decent wis/will save (looking at you fighter and barbarian).

[GanonBoar]

I never took that point of view, and it does now seem to make a lot more sense. I would prefer it if the spell description stated something to that effect though.

[Segev]

There's also "because legacy." In prior editions, where "mind-affecting effects" were a thing, hold person and its ilk were that category. Essentially, it's a magical compulsion to hold perfectly still. It is not a physical restraint nor an effect on your body, but on your mind.

[Psyren]

Making it act on the mind also keeps it from working on undead, constructs etc. (I assume that's still the case in 5e, not sure.)

This is an interesting question though - what was the fluff of Hold Person in the earliest editions? I'm almost positive it's been around since 1e.

[R.Shackleford]

Making it act on the mind also keeps it from working on undead, constructs etc. (I assume that's still the case in 5e, not sure.)

This is an interesting question though - what was the fluff of Hold Person in the earliest editions? I'm almost positive it's been around since 1e.

Hold Person only works on humanoids, Hold Monster works on any "creature" so technically any enemy will be a creature.

Instead of just working on the brain it can work on the magic that works as the creature's brain.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They ARE still Enchantment spells, so presumably they're still acting on the mind.

[Ace Jackson]

Making it act on the mind also keeps it from working on undead, constructs etc. (I assume that's still the case in 5e, not sure.)

This is an interesting question though - what was the fluff of Hold Person in the earliest editions? I'm almost positive it's been around since 1e.

Actually, looking at the cyclopedia, you're right on the money, it explicitly says that it will not work on the undead, interestingly, it also doesn't work on human/demihuman targets larger then ogres. Can be reversed to cure it if cast by enemy, doesn't help against other sources like ghouls claws. Could target up to 4 as a group, or one with that one having a penalty on the save. Understand you couldn't 'overcast' in those days (EDIT: 'in those days' Well isn't that just an odd phrase to use.:smallsmile: replace that with 'in that edition of the rules.') to extra effect, unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, the spell did what it did, and if you wanted to expand it with a higher level version you'd better have the time and money to research it.

[hymer]

This is an interesting question though - what was the fluff of Hold Person in the earliest editions? I'm almost positive it's been around since 1e.

There’s no definite fluff on it in AD&D 1e, but the material component is a straight piece of iron. Sounds kinda-sorta physical. No outright mention is made, however, of whether this is mental or physical, and the save is against ‘spell’. It is, however, enchantment/charm school, which points somewhat towards mental. Wisdom does not affect the save, as it does vs. effects such as charm, suggestion, fear and others.

In 2e, it also goes on to make the effect a sort of stasis. It holds bleeding, poison and the like in check while the duration lasts. Wisdom still does not affect the save, unlike it does with other stuff.

Rules Cyclopedia is the oldest D&D system I have access to, and it has the spell too. It uses the words ‘paralysis’ and ‘paralyzed’, but that’s the extent of the specifics. Wisdom affects all saves vs. spell here.

From 3.0, it becomes clearly mind-affecting, with a Will save and a Compulsion tag.

[Democratus]

I like to house-rule it as a Strength save. It's magic trying to constrict you in place.

Alternately you could create a new spell "Bind Fast" or somesuch that is like Hold Person only vs. strength.

Makes it much better against spellcasters and gives fighters a use for their best save.

[smcmike]

I like to house-rule it as a Strength save. It's magic trying to constrict you in place.

Alternately you could create a new spell "Bind Fast" or somesuch that is like Hold Person only vs. strength.

Makes it much better against spellcasters and gives fighters a use for their best save.

Also fits with many fictional versions - for instance Wheel of Time.

[krugaan]

Generically, the mental attributes all have physical counterparts.

Charisma is mental strength
Intelligence is mental agility
Wisdom is mental constitution

I think that's how it was handled with astral adventures back in 2E, anyway.

It makes a certain amount of sense, even if the various saves don't (at least, not really).

[Psyren]

Actually, looking at the cyclopedia, you're right on the money, it explicitly says that it will not work on the undead, interestingly, it also doesn't work on human/demihuman targets larger then ogres. Can be reversed to cure it if cast by enemy, doesn't help against other sources like ghouls claws. Could target up to 4 as a group, or one with that one having a penalty on the save. Understand you couldn't 'overcast' in those days (EDIT: 'in those days' Well isn't that just an odd phrase to use.:smallsmile: replace that with 'in that edition of the rules.') to extra effect, unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, the spell did what it did, and if you wanted to expand it with a higher level version you'd better have the time and money to research it.

I glanced at the 5e version (Hold Monster that is) and it does the same thing, undead are specifically exempted by the text. To me this is less elegant than the 3.x method of just giving it a compulsion descriptor (the 3.5 and PF versions are a single sentence long), but it might be easier to parse for a totally new player.

[rhouck]

I like to house-rule it as a Strength save. It's magic trying to constrict you in place.

Alternately you could create a new spell "Bind Fast" or somesuch that is like Hold Person only vs. strength.

Makes it much better against spellcasters and gives fighters a use for their best save.

But there are already spells (e.g., Entangle) that bind you physically in place. Not to mention grapple effects (that require Str ability check) etc that use the Strength score.

I view Wisdom and Charisma saves as the Achilles heel(s) of most martials (as those tend to be their dump stats), whereas you expect them to make Str/Dex/Con saving throws/checks.

[Ace Jackson]

I glanced at the 5e version (Hold Monster that is) and it does the same thing, undead are specifically exempted by the text. To me this is less elegant than the 3.x method of just giving it a compulsion descriptor (the 3.5 and PF versions are a single sentence long), but it might be easier to parse for a totally new player.

This is probably the case, it is interesting to trace the development of the game's rule structure. Perhaps in a future edition they could consider, if doing an electronic release, releasing the PHB as a two book bundle, both having the same content, but presented in a simple plaintext format for a first time player in the one, and using tags, keywords, descriptors, and variables, more readily in the other to compress the information down for reference by the experienced player during the game?

[KorvinStarmast]

This is probably the case, it is interesting to trace the development of the game's rule structure. Perhaps in a future edition they could consider, if doing an electronic release, releasing the PHB as a two book bundle, both having the same content, but presented in a simple plaintext format for a first time player in the one, and using tags, keywords, descriptors, and variables, more readily in the other to compress the information down for reference by the experienced player during the game?
It seems to me a "will power" kind of save and as such I'd lean more toward Charisma if I was going to home brew this.



Wisdom: Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight
Charisma: Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership
A character with high Charisma exudes confidence, which is usually mixed with a graceful or intimidating presence. A character with a low Charisma might come across as abrasive, inarticulate, or timid.
Charisma, measuring force of personality
Charisma: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion


Seems thematically to match as well as Wisdom.

[Saeviomage]

Ok, now tell me how polymorph is a wisdom save.

[krugaan]

Ok, now tell me how polymorph is a wisdom save.

that's off. If anything it should just be a constitution save.

[R.Shackleford]

Ok, now tell me how polymorph is a wisdom save.

Will power to keep your sanity and frame of mind.

"I am not a bunny, I am not a bunny, I am not a bunny, hey take me to the lettuce store"

[Nonah_Me]

I figure polymorph saves should be Charisma, as you're attempting to assert that you are in fact you. That your essence is not mutable.

[krugaan]

Will power to keep your sanity and frame of mind.

"I am not a bunny, I am not a bunny, I am not a bunny, hey take me to the lettuce store"

What ... no Trix?