Handling TPK

[Ortesk]

So, I recently had my first TPK as a DM (I had many as a player) which actually shook me as much as the players. Let me explain.

They had just finished a pretty epic encounter, making a deal with a Demon Prince (they got a vampires soul from Tarterus, the Demon gets one favor to ask of them) but in the course of this, they upset the BBEG of the campaign. His second in command was that vampire, and by freeing the soul and putting it in the body, the Vampire became free. To fight against the BBEG.

So the BBEG did what any normal villain would do, he wanted revenge. He showed up at a players wedding, and, paraphrasing here, said that they would fight an up and comer in his service for what they did. If the were good sports, he would grant them a boon. If they weren't, for every hour they hid, a trusted NPC would die. To raise the stakes, and to give a reason the city would help them, if they failed in this fight the BBEG would raze the city. Before he left, he told them the young upstart was an enchanter.

So with an hour to prepare, and knowing the guy's main shtick, my group goes to fight this guy. Except, there is an issue. They are level 10 (the enemy is level 13) and none of them have double digit will saves, they don't barter for a mindblank, and they don't try to get even protection from evil cast on them. So they walked into the city square, all the commoners watching, and the rolled init. No player rolled above a 5, the enchanter rolled a 19.
First round: Enchanter uses quicken Final Rebuke, the healer fails. Then he uses Final rebuke, the big fighter goes down. then the rogue and ranger move in to flank, which activates contigency dimension door. Then the enchanter tosses a final rebuke at the rogue, and rogue rolls a one. I am really questioning how this is going to play out. The ranger charges, not clearing the gap, saying his rapiers are the only thing he can think of using. Enchanter uses his last final rebuke (Cast in a 7th level slot) and ranger dies.

As a DM, I have never killed my whole party. I have never enjoyed playing with DM's who do, but I also believe in a player dying if they simply did not fight smart. Normally at higher levels, death is another status ailment. What I am asking the playground, did the party deserve death? None of them made any attempt to get any buff or boost to help in this fight, and they implemented no strategy in fighting this guy (Human Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 6/mindbender 1/Archmage 3) beyond showing up and hoping to bombard him with weapons. If this were to happen to you, would you be angry at the DM, at yourself, or would you take it as part of the game?

[nyjastul69]

I would take it as part of the game. The party went in woefully under prepared and rolled pretty poorly as well. These things in combination usually result in character deaths, in this case, all of them.

You could have them all become ghosts per Ghostwalk and go from there. I haven't read that in a whole but I *think* they can become living creatures again.

[Draconium]

As a DM, I have never killed my whole party. I have never enjoyed playing with DM's who do, but I also believe in a player dying if they simply did not fight smart. Normally at higher levels, death is another status ailment. What I am asking the playground, did the party deserve death? None of them made any attempt to get any buff or boost to help in this fight, and they implemented no strategy in fighting this guy (Human Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 6/mindbender 1/Archmage 3) beyond showing up and hoping to bombard him with weapons. If this were to happen to you, would you be angry at the DM, at yourself, or would you take it as part of the game?

Well, if they didn't take the proper precautions when they were available for them to access, then it's not your fault. You weren't trying to kill the party, after all. At only three levels above the party, he should have been a challenging fight, but not an overwhelming one. As a player, I would take this in stride - I may be a little angry at myself, but in the end, it's just a game.

[Ortesk]

Well, if they didn't take the proper precautions when they were available for them to access, then it's not your fault. You weren't trying to kill the party, after all. At only three levels above the party, he should have been a challenging fight, but not an overwhelming one. As a player, I would take this in stride - I may be a little angry at myself, but in the end, it's just a game.

That is how I would take it, but with one of them being a greener player I figured it best to stand back and get an outsider perspective on the matter.


I would take it as part of the game. The party went in woefully under prepared and rolled pretty poorly as well. These things in combination usually result in character deaths, in this case, all of them.

You could have them all become ghosts per Ghostwalk and go from there. I haven't read that in a whole but I *think* they can become living creatures again.

Thank you, I will look into it. I have some form of a plan to keep the storyline progressing, the players were heavily involved in the story. I would prefer they see it to the end, if that is what they choose ofc

[Diarmuid]

With an hour to prepare, what did you really expect them to do?

Barter for a Mind Blank? If there was someone around who was capable of casting that, why wouldnt they have simply dealt with the issue?

You threw what sounds like a HIGHLY optimized, one-trick pony, CR+3 caster at your group* and you're surprised at how poorly it went?

* Guessing Master Specialist that didnt ban evocation (needed for the precast Contingency), 17/18 int boosted at 4/8/12 with +4 Int item for bonus 7th level spell, and ability to apply quicken for free at least 1/day. You managed to rip off 4 7th level spells (1 of them quickened) with a DC I'm guessing ~24-26.

I'm curious what is meant by the sentence, "Enchanter uses his last final rebuke (Cast in a 7th level slot) and ranger dies." in your text. Unless the Enchanter was using some Sanctum Spell nonsense, I would imagine all of his Final Rebuke spells would have been using 7th level slots, of which the caster likely only had 4 total.

[Gallowglass]

isn't final rebuke a 7th level spell. Of which a 13th level caster has 1? 2 if they get a bonus spell of the school?

Isn't quickening +4 to the slot, making it an 11th level spell?

doesn't a contingency dimension door cause the same "no action afterward" clause as a normal dimension door (I'm not sure on that one actually)

I mean, assuming he is using a rod to quicken the spell (have to be a greater rod, costing 85,000 gp) and he's a sorcerer so he has a reason to spam one spell and he has something I don't understand that lets him cast final rebuke as a 6th level spell instead of a 7th.

I guess his spell save DC would be, what.... 10 + (6 or 7) + (int or cha, lets call it + 6) + 1 for something else that's a DC of about 24. You said no one had a will save of double digit so in 4 saves no one rolled 15 or greater?

No one has resistance or any bonus to saves?

His CR may have said 13, but he was using much higher level tactics in this battle. Spamming a spell specifically at the party's weak spot.


I think If I was you, I'd have them wake up in the BBEG's dungeon next adventure to find out he brought them back to play with them and let them try to escape.

[Esprit15]

Personally, as a DM I avoid Save or Die spells for exactly this reason. Heck, I redid an encounter one party member had with a slightly lower level Warmage because he got killed by Phantasmal Killer in round one (he still died, but it made for a more memorable encounter, and had some better RP that resulted).

Did the party know how this guy fought? Did they know that he was even a Wizard? The point of "shouldn't the person who could cast mind blank deal with this?" is a legitimate concern, as well.

All of these can be a problem as a DM with more system mastery than your players.

[Ortesk]

Personally, as a DM I avoid Save or Die spells for exactly this reason. Heck, I redid an encounter one party member had with a slightly lower level Warmage because he got killed by Phantasmal Killer in round one (he still died, but it made for a more memorable encounter, and had some better RP that resulted).

Did the party know how this guy fought? Did they know that he was even a Wizard? The point of "shouldn't the person who could cast mind blank deal with this?" is a legitimate concern, as well.

All of these can be a problem as a DM with more system mastery than your players.

I didn't flat out say he was a wizard, but I did say he was an enchanter (they have dealt with succubuses and the like before) but I may retcon it and admit my error. I did take from this to never use save or die though. I just figured playing a higher than normal human intellect, he would use the best method plausible

[Ortesk]

isn't final rebuke a 7th level spell. Of which a 13th level caster has 1? 2 if they get a bonus spell of the school?

Isn't quickening +4 to the slot, making it an 11th level spell?

doesn't a contingency dimension door cause the same "no action afterward" clause as a normal dimension door (I'm not sure on that one actually)

I mean, assuming he is using a rod to quicken the spell (have to be a greater rod, costing 85,000 gp) and he's a sorcerer so he has a reason to spam one spell and he has something I don't understand that lets him cast final rebuke as a 6th level spell instead of a 7th.

I guess his spell save DC would be, what.... 10 + (6 or 7) + (int or cha, lets call it + 6) + 1 for something else that's a DC of about 24. You said no one had a will save of double digit so in 4 saves no one rolled 15 or greater?

No one has resistance or any bonus to saves?

His CR may have said 13, but he was using much higher level tactics in this battle. Spamming a spell specifically at the party's weak spot.


I think If I was you, I'd have them wake up in the BBEG's dungeon next adventure to find out he brought them back to play with them and let them try to escape.

He had Final Rebuke as a spell like ability, through archmage. He had quicken spell like ability (his 12th level feat) he gave up a 7th level slot. The 6th level was a typo, I apologize. But his save was a but higher, he was a one trick pony and built for his trick. The contingency did mean he had no action, but his turn was next in line. Unless I missed something, he should have been fine to act as normal

[Ortesk]

With an hour to prepare, what did you really expect them to do?

Barter for a Mind Blank? If there was someone around who was capable of casting that, why wouldnt they have simply dealt with the issue?

You threw what sounds like a HIGHLY optimized, one-trick pony, CR+3 caster at your group* and you're surprised at how poorly it went?

* Guessing Master Specialist that didnt ban evocation (needed for the precast Contingency), 17/18 int boosted at 4/8/12 with +4 Int item for bonus 7th level spell, and ability to apply quicken for free at least 1/day. You managed to rip off 4 7th level spells (1 of them quickened) with a DC I'm guessing ~24-26.

I'm curious what is meant by the sentence, "Enchanter uses his last final rebuke (Cast in a 7th level slot) and ranger dies." in your text. Unless the Enchanter was using some Sanctum Spell nonsense, I would imagine all of his Final Rebuke spells would have been using 7th level slots, of which the caster likely only had 4 total.

He banned necromancy and illusion, iirc. He had 4 spell slots for that level, and used one for the archmage. He had 5 possible castings of it, with his 7th level spell selection he had it prepared twice and had it twice per day, by the archmage ability.

Your point on the fact someone of level 15 was around does deserve thought though. I will probably admit my failure and ask the players their thoughts. This is why an outside perspective is much appreciated

[SethoMarkus]

While I don't think you did anything "wrong", I do think this might warrent a "do-over" if the Players are willing. Another option is bringing the PCs back somehow, maybe some high level patron?

Bad rolls are especially unpleasant when it results in a TPK, bad tactics aside. A similar thing happened to one of my characters when an assassin of the BBEG snuck up on our camp at night and killed my PC with Phantasmal Killer. The DM had meant it only as a warning (my PC was targeted because he had the best Will save of the group), but my natural 1 on Will and poor Fort ended badly... He ended up handwaving that the party Druid was able to Reincarnate my PC. (It was supposed to be a low-mortality game.)

[Nettlekid]

He had Final Rebuke as a spell like ability, through archmage. He had quicken spell like ability (his 12th level feat) he gave up a 7th level slot. The 6th level was a typo, I apologize. But his save was a but higher, he was a one trick pony and built for his trick. The contingency did mean he had no action, but his turn was next in line. Unless I missed something, he should have been fine to act as normal

Unless you're using the BoVD version of Quicken SLA, that was an illegal application of a feat. Quicken SLA can be applied to certain levels of SLAs based on the CL of the caster, described in the text of the feat. Check out your local Monster Manual I through V. A 7th level SLA can't actually be Quickened at all, but if it could the caster would have to be of CL 22.

I echo the skepticism of my fellow Playgrounders. Enchanter or not, it was a caster against a party with a Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger. And you're surprised that repeatedly using Save or Die spells caused the party to die? Don't you think that, if you wanted to avoid a TPK, you could have chosen not to use the insta-death spell when the last guy was still alive?

I think it's unreasonable to want the party to prepare with Mind Blank. That's an 8th level spell, five whole class levels above their current pay grade. The caster that killed them wouldn't be able to cast that spell, how should they be able to have such easy access to 4 castings of it? And that's the only thing that would have guaranteed protection, Protection From Evil wouldn't have helped because Final Rebuke doesn't grant ongoing control (which is what Protection From Evil guards against). It was grossly overpowered.

[Mikka]

Wow, save or die high level optimized caster with cheated in quicken against a fighter, ranger, rogue and healer. That's pretty terrible.

Anyways, you should have them wake up in hell with the BBEG's nemesis there to strike a bargain, or maybe have their spirits caught in a horrible maze trap thing that the enchanter doesn't expect them to get out of, but instead it turns into a cool mini adventure that they escape and come out in the world as ghosts with a couple of new missions, one to come back to life and second to get revenge.

[Magesmiley]

It was a reasonably fair TPK. Bad rolls kill parties now and then. This was one of them. Their lack of preparation when they could've also was definitely a factor. If an NPC is even moderately intelligent, prepping before going into a fight (such as contingency) is entirely reasonable.

I've often found levels 10-13 seem to be the most likely to TPK a party, as players sometimes have trouble adjusting to changes in the power levels of enemies.

One other thing you want to be sure do: if you continue in the same game world (either with resurrected characters or new ones) is to have the villain follow through on his promise to raze the city. There are consequences for failing. And it provides an interesting RP twist: NPCs who blame the characters for failing to save the city.

[Elder_Basilisk]

As the previous poster pointed out, Quicken SLA was probably not allowed for the character and was a huge factor in the outcome of the battle.

The contingent dimension door is also somewhat questionable. The wording of the spell is somewhat ambiguous, but I have always interpreted contingency to require all of the parameters of the contingent spell to be set at the time you cast contingency. Thus, "teleport me to my workshop" will be a workable contingency as long as you are away from home (if you are already in your workshop, it's wasted) and within range, but a tactical teleport/dimension door is difficult to pull off as a contingency because you don't know whether you'll want to teleport 80 feet back and ten feet up or 400 feet north and 400 feet up when the contingency actually goes off. Under that interpretation, there are still a lot of good contingencies (including displacement and greater invisibility) but the way it worked in your game would not be an option.

As to the rest:
A. your party probably messed up a bit. Finding an NPC to cast mind blank on them was probably not very practical (if 15th level spellcasters are all over the place, why is the "I'll kill someone for every hour you're not there" threat viable). However, they probably should have scouted the square and tried to ambush him when he showed up. And trying to get conviction or mass conviction and other pre-buffs would have been a good idea too.

B. It's probably not a very fair encounter for the PCs. You described the PCs as a healer, a fighter, a ranger, and a rogue. Now maybe they've multiclassed a bit but it doesn't sound like they have anywhere near the level of optimization that a wizard/master specialist/mindbender/archmage has. That kind of encounter is one thing if the party is running around with +15 to their weakest save with a re-roll tucked into their belts. Against the kind of party you appear to have, it's another matter.

C. Regardless of whether or not it is a fair encounter and how well optimized your wizard is, it is unlikely to be a fun encounter. A solo fight against a wizard will usually end very quickly one way or the other. Either the wizard obliterates the party with high save DCs and higher level spells than they can cast or the party chews through the wizard's hit points right and he's dead before the fight starts. Having the wizard cast save or dies targeted at the party's lowest save compounds that issue. (And with the estimated DC of 24, and an assumed save of +9, they need a 15 and thus you have a 24% chance of a 4 spell TPK just based on 4 saving throw odds. And getting higher than +9 at level 10 is pretty challenging so the odds are probably worse than that. Assuming they don't multiclass to a strong Will save class, they'd have +3 from level, maybe +1 from Wisdom, +3 or +4 from a cloak of resistance and that's only +6-+8. If they take Iron Will, there's a possibility for +10, but it's not a terribly likely scenario).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They're dealing with high level demons. The one they've most recently dealt with isn't done with them.

Unfortunately, bringing them back to life has now incurred a soul-debt, and if they don't find a way to deal with that, they have some seriously unfortunate consequences for the next time they die. Hell, they have some seriously unfortunate consequences now. Still, the demon in question should have some beef with the bastard(s) that killed them, so they can work part of their debt off by offing the guys who played them (but only part). Of course, the demon in question wants them to succeed, so it should give them a few items and such to give them a leg-up. The fact that each time they do a job, they get a boon which further entrenches their soul-debts in potential Evil is a definite issue they'll need to deal with, as well.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Archmage requires 15 ranks in both Spellcraft and Knowledge [Arcana] and the ability to cast 7th level spells, meaning you cannot enter until after level 13. Unless there's some early entry trick I'm unaware of that let's you enter at level 11 this whole spell-like ability spam tragedy should never have occurred.

Edit: I should also give my opinion on the situation since you asked for it. I think that both sides of the screen handled this situation poorly. The players should have taken more precaution and evaluated their options better. The DM should have used a legal character and given more hints and possibly bright shining flashing neon signs that they should prepare a little better. It sounds like they may be a little new to the game.

[Ortesk]

A lot of good advice still coming, thank you. I messed up on the quicken spell like ability, I think I will admit it to my players and go from there. If they want, I will redo the fight without the quicken on the table and take away the save or die. Second option is that they have quest to fight their way out of hell (none of them are good, and they made a lot of deals with demons) then come back. Or simply have them roll new characters and go from there. I will ask my group how they want to roll this one, and go with whatever they choose. Unless it involves me being drawn and quartered, but that is another matter.

Again, thank you for the outside perspective and catching me on my mess up with quicken SLA

[LTwerewolf]

I wouldn't redo the fight, I would just move on from where they are after admitting the mistake. "Let's take it as a collective learning thing." As was said earlier, fault lies on both sides of the screen on this one. Dominate person would have resulted in a pretty similar situation given their lack of preparation.

I'd stick them in some afterlife and make a reason as to why they'd be brought back. Maybe flavor it so they actually took a dive on purpose and worked it out with a local priest to bring them back. They were totally defeated, and now the villain "knows" they're dead. That means he's not going to be showing up to any more family events and will be all the more surprised when they kick down his front door and curb stomp him while he's eating ice cream in his pjs.

[mauk2]

I did take from this to never use save or die though.


Valuable lesson learned. Gaming is a social activity. Don't be a jerk.

You were just a jerk to your friends.

Make it right.

Years from now, you'll be laughing about how dumb this was.

[Aegis013]

...If they weren't, for every hour they hid, a trusted NPC would die. ...

Depends on some unclear stuff. They don't have a lot of time to prepare for this guy if they want to save a life of someone they presumably care about. They know he's an enchanter, but the caliber of his power may not be clear.

There's insufficient time for a gather information check without losing a few trusted allies which is a very expensive endeavor to restore those people to life, and this guy may have contingencies against typical revival methods when it comes to his victims, maybe he's charmed a pet Barghest to eat their souls, for example.

Quick skills like Kn: Arcana or Spellcraft aren't going to give them any idea of the power of a specific foe (other than spellcraft on a spell who are seeing him cast, at which point it's likely too late anyway).

Since he threatened the town, it would likely be worth a few minutes to see if any donations or back up could be provided, though that could be viewed as poor sportsmanship and be met with other consequences, but depending on the size of the town and how far they may have to go, doing this within the hour might not be reasonable. I wouldn't expect a typical party to have easy major city-wide fast travel at 10. They may have expected that they only had time to go meet up for the fight, that it would probably take the better part of the hour just to get to the location.

Overall, I would just take it as part of the game. A powerful enemy appeared, and the dice were against the party. Without further clarification on various things, I do think there's a reasonable argument that it was set up with the odds against the PCs, but that's not something I personally think is unreasonable. If there was sufficient time to gather more information, then I would think there would be no argument. Players failing to use resources (including time) well in a game is their own deal.

[TheBrassDuke]

Not to sound like a d***, but...

If this Big Bad of yours interrupts a wedding for these people to fight his chosen (champion, I'm guessing?) out of revenge, and they've expected a fight, I wouldn't have this challenger spam the same killing spell again and again. I know it's style and flavor choice, but really. It's an Illusionist. There were many options to choose from. This wasn't a fight. It was a massacre.

Not even a noteworthy TPK in my opinion. That was just cruel. :/


...You weren't trying to kill the party, after all.

Yeah, no.

[Nettlekid]

Not to sound like a d***, but...

If this Big Bad of yours interrupts a wedding for these people to fight his chosen (champion, I'm guessing?) out of revenge, and they've expected a fight, I wouldn't have this challenger spam the same killing spell again and again. I know it's style and flavor choice, but really. It's an Illusionist. There were many options to choose from. This wasn't a fight. It was a massacre.

Not even a noteworthy TPK in my opinion. That was just cruel. :/

This is also very much the case. If the OP had described a Necromancer spamming Finger of Death and replaced mention of Mind Blank with Death Ward, or we'd have the exact same scenario. A Wizard has infinite possibilities, so to use the same ones is dull.

If it's an Enchanter, then you need to play up the mind games. If you're already using unfair rulings to give yourself an action economy advantage then set up something convoluted. Use Hold Person and Invisibility to remove one party member from the fight, overlaid with a Major Image of them falling to the ground dead. Characters and players both will think the character was killed on the spot, so imagine their surprise when three rounds later everything is grim and you tell the "dead" character's player that they can take their turn. Or pretend to use Baleful Transposition but instead have the effect of a Dominate spell make a PC attack another PC by saying that they swapped places (but in reality the PC's mind is just clouded, like a Bewildering Substitution.)

Honestly my vote, if you haven't yet played again, is not for a rematch but a continuation of this current match. Tell the PCs that they aren't dead, but each of them has been mind-controlled into believing they are, and so they have to break out of that and resume the fight. Maybe the Enchanter didn't have any Save or Die spells, and is planning to slit their throats with a mundane dagger while they're zoned out.

[Quertus]

It sure is fun to see all the different perspectives people have, and imagine the different play styles that spawned those perspectives.

For myself, I look at this and say...

You ran a foe intelligently, while the party was rather foolish, and it resulted in a TPK. Kudos.

You expected the party to seek spellcasting services - a reasonable assumption in vanilla D&D. Was the party aware that such services exist? Have they utilized them before?

You telegraphed that the foe was an enchanter. Unless he wanted to give the party an advantage, why would the BBEG do that? I'd argue that you telegraphed too hard, rather than not enough. That having been said, if you want to give the party the opportunity to be prepared against a tough foe in the future... give them a real opportunity to be prepared. Use the rule of 3, and give them at least 3 hints before they encounter the foe. Give them time to roll gather information, seek out specialists, buy items, etc.

Your use of contingent dimension door... I can't comment on directly. Did the enchanter a) have a contingency that said something like, if foes approach me in melee, then DD 100' north / up / the direction I am facing; or b) cast his contingency during the hour he was waiting for the party to show up at the predetermined location? If so, then it was legit.

Except... why did it trigger after both remaining PCs had already acted? Unless he had a very unusual contingency, something like, when 2 or more foes are in melee with me / when I am flanked. So... what exactly was the enchanter's contingency?

Where was the vampire in all this? Why was the entire city too stupid to volunteer assistance?

The enchanter wasn't a legal build. This is an issue. Few things leave a worse taste in my mouth than dieing to something that couldn't happen. You have two choices: make the enchanter work as he should at 13th level, or make him the level required to work as he did. Ok, or the third option of handwavium - he just works the way he does for reasons (copious wishes bought with the proceeds of his flesh to salt mines). Did the party use sense motive to determine his relative CR? If not, then all three options are viable going forward.

The enchanter sound a bit more optimized than the party. Which can be fine, but... if you're going to put on the kiddie gloves somewhere, do it at the build level, not at the tactics level. If you were to stop using save or die effects against me, or have your intelligent foes not spam their best tactic when it obviously appears to be working, I would cry foul.

But I'm not in your game. Your players are. See how they feel about the situation, and how they want to move forward. Do they want a do over? To be resurrected? To roll up new characters?

And how do they want you to run the game going forward? With or without save or die? With or without intelligent foes? With or without balanced encounters? With or without high-op foes? With or without encounters that necessitate preparation?

[Trebloc]

Has the group ever dealt with high DC saves before? Basically, did they realize they had big holes in their defenses?

I understand the dislike of save-or-die spells, but I wouldn't stop using them as a DM unless there was a universal ban for both sides of the screen. There is some amount of fun realizing that you are a die roll away from dying, and there is also an amount of fun when you can use your tricks/items/defenses to bail yourself out from that save-or-die.

Was one hour really enough time to prepare? That's not enough time to swap out prepared spells, and really not enough to do any meaningful shopping, so really, did they have the gear/spells on hand to have a good battle? Did the city seriously have enough casters to be able to cast multiple Mindblanks for that to be a viable option?

[Ortesk]

It sure is fun to see all the different perspectives people have, and imagine the different play styles that spawned those perspectives.

For myself, I look at this and say...

You ran a foe intelligently, while the party was rather foolish, and it resulted in a TPK. Kudos.

You expected the party to seek spellcasting services - a reasonable assumption in vanilla D&D. Was the party aware that such services exist? Have they utilized them before?

You telegraphed that the foe was an enchanter. Unless he wanted to give the party an advantage, why would the BBEG do that? I'd argue that you telegraphed too hard, rather than not enough. That having been said, if you want to give the party the opportunity to be prepared against a tough foe in the future... give them a real opportunity to be prepared. Use the rule of 3, and give them at least 3 hints before they encounter the foe. Give them time to roll gather information, seek out specialists, buy items, etc.

Your use of contingent dimension door... I can't comment on directly. Did the enchanter a) have a contingency that said something like, if foes approach me in melee, then DD 100' north / up / the direction I am facing; or b) cast his contingency during the hour he was waiting for the party to show up at the predetermined location? If so, then it was legit.

Except... why did it trigger after both remaining PCs had already acted? Unless he had a very unusual contingency, something like, when 2 or more foes are in melee with me / when I am flanked. So... what exactly was the enchanter's contingency?

Where was the vampire in all this? Why was the entire city too stupid to volunteer assistance?

The enchanter wasn't a legal build. This is an issue. Few things leave a worse taste in my mouth than dieing to something that couldn't happen. You have two choices: make the enchanter work as he should at 13th level, or make him the level required to work as he did. Ok, or the third option of handwavium - he just works the way he does for reasons (copious wishes bought with the proceeds of his flesh to salt mines). Did the party use sense motive to determine his relative CR? If not, then all three options are viable going forward.

The enchanter sound a bit more optimized than the party. Which can be fine, but... if you're going to put on the kiddie gloves somewhere, do it at the build level, not at the tactics level. If you were to stop using save or die effects against me, or have your intelligent foes not spam their best tactic when it obviously appears to be working, I would cry foul.

But I'm not in your game. Your players are. See how they feel about the situation, and how they want to move forward. Do they want a do over? To be resurrected? To roll up new characters?

And how do they want you to run the game going forward? With or without save or die? With or without intelligent foes? With or without balanced encounters? With or without high-op foes? With or without encounters that necessitate preparation?

The party was aware that certain services were available, yes. The rogue was a high ranking member of the thieves guild. The fighter was a high ranking member of the arena guild, the ranger was an officer in the guard, and the healer was a hero to the common folk (He burns his leftover spells per day healing the poor, and uses his high heal check healing them) They knew they had connections, and they had leverage. They also knew an old and crafty bard (His level was 10 ish, I was basically thinking him as a UMD specialist) was around, who made fair trades in exchange for scrolls being used for them. Had they tried to get his aid, he would have done so at cost of the scroll (His life was in danger as well)

The vampire had spent 3 months training them prior to this session. We left off with them saving the vampire, we started assuming months had passed. I asked the players how they wanted to be trained, anything was on the table within reason. The fighter wanted to master his greathammer in a way few others could. I gave him feats to reflect that. The ranger spent 3 months pouring time into studying demons and devils, he got the nemisis (sp?) feats for those favored enemies. The rogue wanted to be master how to disappear, she gained HiPS. But I had explained the vampire had to leave to attend to personal dealings, mainly fighting the BBEG. I didn't want him to be seen as a button to push when you feel overwhelmed.

The contigency was "If I am flanked in combat, I will Dimension Door 100 feet backwards" I had let the second character get the round of attacks in to put on the kiddie gloves.

They never tried a sense motive, or well any tactic before the fight. Which is why I had come here. No DM enjoys killing PC's, unless the whole party does as well.

[Ortesk]

Has the group ever dealt with high DC saves before? Basically, did they realize they had big holes in their defenses?

I understand the dislike of save-or-die spells, but I wouldn't stop using them as a DM unless there was a universal ban for both sides of the screen. There is some amount of fun realizing that you are a die roll away from dying, and there is also an amount of fun when you can use your tricks/items/defenses to bail yourself out from that save-or-die.

Was one hour really enough time to prepare? That's not enough time to swap out prepared spells, and really not enough to do any meaningful shopping, so really, did they have the gear/spells on hand to have a good battle? Did the city seriously have enough casters to be able to cast multiple Mindblanks for that to be a viable option?

My group has dealt with high DC fights before, yes. They have fought one trick ponies. I have always said, that no matter what, everything can die. Every necromancer can be beat by a deathward, every enchanter can be beat by a mind blank, every grappler can be beat by a FOM. And usually me giving clues to the trick has been enough for my most seasoned player to come up with a plan to kill him. This time, for whatever reason, they tried the old "bombard and pray" route.

And the hour was more along the lines of enough time to try and get an item, or try and get the town Bard to work his magic with scrolls. I didn't want to approach the players with a way out, but I had every way out available if they tried to make use of it

[Kelvarius]

To everyone commenting on the lack of city support and the availability of high level casters, it sounds like the BBEG wanted the PCs, and only the PCs, to fight his minion. So any interference from others would likely have been a foul that prompted the BBEG to enact his whole kill everything routine.

As for the question at hand, I don't think anyone in particular is to blame. Everyone messed up, and the botched rolls only made things worse.

Moving forward, I recommend not retconning or redoing the fight* and instead advancing the story an alternative way (Without rerolling). Sure, it might be easier, but as a player, I want this to be a part of my character growth. I also want it to be something I remember for next time. Handwaving it away, giving everyone the easy way out, the consequences are diminished and less likely to be remembered. Plus, it always puts such a stop to the momentum of the story when you have to backtrack and change things.

* Unless you have some timey wimey magic in play that suddenly sends the PCs back in time with their memories in tact so they can change how things go down.

I think the BBEG bringing them back is a solid idea, either as his torture slaves in a dungeon they can escape from, or because he promised them a boon if they played nice and he can be secure in the knowledge they pose no threat to even his minor mooks. The Demon Prince helping them is also a good option.

But before you decide, I put this question forth. What happened to them after the fight? Did the BBEG or his minion take the bodies? Just leave them there and leave, satisfied with the outcome? Something else? Because it's entirely possible that the city itself would raise the party if they were just left there. It clearly has resources.

[Trebloc]

My group has dealt with high DC fights before, yes. They have fought one trick ponies. I have always said, that no matter what, everything can die. Every necromancer can be beat by a deathward, every enchanter can be beat by a mind blank, every grappler can be beat by a FOM. And usually me giving clues to the trick has been enough for my most seasoned player to come up with a plan to kill him. This time, for whatever reason, they tried the old "bombard and pray" route.

Well, you know your players. What did you expect them to do? It's easy to say they should have ponied up 5k for 4 Mindblanks because you're the DM and know exactly what the enchanter is going to toss, but at level 10 that wouldn't have crossed my mind. Also, having double digit saves for a weak save at level 10 is a taller order.

I'd also think that a necromancer would be smart enough to not be completely foiled by a single spell. Same goes for any caster (heck, really any class if a bit of effort is put into it). This goes for the enchanter as well, because unless the PCs know his full spell repertoire, they don't know if he'd be packing a finger of death, or really any other spell.

I know I ran a similar encounter once, except my group had very low CHA scores, so I had a Psion hit them with Ego Whip, taking 3 out in the first round of combat (regular casting, quickened, then Schismed). The fight was over extremely quickly, however I totally expected it to play out like that. Outside of Mindblank, I'm not seeing how you expected the battle to go any other way.


And the hour was more along the lines of enough time to try and get an item, or try and get the town Bard to work his magic with scrolls. I didn't want to approach the players with a way out, but I had every way out available if they tried to make use of it

What kinds of items are they supposed to find in an hour? Or do you play with more of a Magic Mart? I mean, I can barely buy some groceries in an hour. Did the group have scrolls that would have been helpful? Or would that have required them to go shopping, then go to the bard, then go to the enchanter? And really, in game, the fighter/rogue/ranger probably don't have that much spellcasting know-how to be able to flip through all spells that are available in your game and to cherry pick the ones that would help with this particular encounter.

Has the group even used Mindblank before?

[Ortesk]

To everyone commenting on the lack of city support and the availability of high level casters, it sounds like the BBEG wanted the PCs, and only the PCs, to fight his minion. So any interference from others would likely have been a foul that prompted the BBEG to enact his whole kill everything routine.

As for the question at hand, I don't think anyone in particular is to blame. Everyone messed up, and the botched rolls only made things worse.

Moving forward, I recommend not retconning or redoing the fight* and instead advancing the story an alternative way (Without rerolling). Sure, it might be easier, but as a player, I want this to be a part of my character growth. I also want it to be something I remember for next time. Handwaving it away, giving everyone the easy way out, the consequences are diminished and less likely to be remembered. Plus, it always puts such a stop to the momentum of the story when you have to backtrack and change things.

* Unless you have some timey wimey magic in play that suddenly sends the PCs back in time with their memories in tact so they can change how things go down.

I think the BBEG bringing them back is a solid idea, either as his torture slaves in a dungeon they can escape from, or because he promised them a boon if they played nice and he can be secure in the knowledge they pose no threat to even his minor mooks. The Demon Prince helping them is also a good option.

But before you decide, I put this question forth. What happened to them after the fight? Did the BBEG or his minion take the bodies? Just leave them there and leave, satisfied with the outcome? Something else? Because it's entirely possible that the city itself would raise the party if they were just left there. It clearly has resources.

Once I thought on it a bit more, had the city directly fought (Instead of just giving some aid) the BBEG would have likely killed every would be challenger. He wanted this fight to be between the party and the Enchanter, more of a test than anything.

Having spoke with my group this morning one player has said he would like to make a new character, the others have said they would like to continue with the current characters. I will likely go with the BBEG bringing them all back, in exchange that the fighter (Who is the one wanting to change characters) will take the mantle of his second in command (after judicious mind rape to make him more akin to the BBEG questionable tactics)

And the body's were left where they lay, for the fact that the BBEG would have seen them as good sports, so for fairness he leaves the gold and possession so the PC's family have means to live off of. And bodies so they can be given a proper burial. Going forward, I think I will make it a trade between the BBEG and the fighter. His soul for his companions lives.

[Ortesk]

Well, you know your players. What did you expect them to do? It's easy to say they should have ponied up 5k for 4 Mindblanks because you're the DM and know exactly what the enchanter is going to toss, but at level 10 that wouldn't have crossed my mind. Also, having double digit saves for a weak save at level 10 is a taller order.

I'd also think that a necromancer would be smart enough to not be completely foiled by a single spell. Same goes for any caster (heck, really any class if a bit of effort is put into it). This goes for the enchanter as well, because unless the PCs know his full spell repertoire, they don't know if he'd be packing a finger of death, or really any other spell.

I know I ran a similar encounter once, except my group had very low CHA scores, so I had a Psion hit them with Ego Whip, taking 3 out in the first round of combat (regular casting, quickened, then Schismed). The fight was over extremely quickly, however I totally expected it to play out like that. Outside of Mindblank, I'm not seeing how you expected the battle to go any other way.

Had they won on the init, it could have went down completely different. The fighter has stand still with a minotaur greathammer, at least until the contigency was set off, he could have beat the snot out of the mage and forced him to roll an absurd concentration check at every attempt to cast a spell (besides the contigency, he (on purpose) had no other reliable way to deal with melee attackers than to kill them before they got to him




What kinds of items are they supposed to find in an hour? Or do you play with more of a Magic Mart? I mean, I can barely buy some groceries in an hour. Did the group have scrolls that would have been helpful? Or would that have required them to go shopping, then go to the bard, then go to the enchanter? And really, in game, the fighter/rogue/ranger probably don't have that much spellcasting know-how to be able to flip through all spells that are available in your game and to cherry pick the ones that would help with this particular encounter.

Has the group even used Mindblank before?

Yes, two of them have used Mindblank. The rogue and the Ranger are greener players, the healer and fighter have been playing longer than I have. And we have ran epic campaigns before.

And the bard owns the magic item shop in the town, which is why they have went to him before. They have used him for various scrolls, and to identify magical items. But I see your point about how in game, they had a valid reason to not know to go to the Bard for aid, with exactly the right wording. That is a valid point

[Quertus]

Just to clarify: you like to run (I think) powerful one trick ponies, and give the party a hint about how to beat them. Fair enough.

But, this time, they didn't take the hint. Result: TPK.

When I say the town didn't help, I don't mean with force of arms (that would be suicidally dumb), but in helping nudge the party toward the right answer. Perhaps even having a low level character offer to let them borrow his ring of Protection from Evil, while pointing out how that will only protect from some of an enchanter's tricks, sorry he doesn't have something better to loan them, hint hint. Maybe have someone ask what's their plan, he's heard of this guy, he kills with a word hint hint.

Also, any conversations about general style going forward? If so, I'd love to hear the results of those conversations.

[Jay R]

I've only had to deal with a TPK once.

I had them wake up in the lair of a rival bad guy, who had them resurrected because he wanted the BBEG killed. He supplied them with the defenses needed, in return for their lives and a promise to go on a quest for him after they defeated the BBEG.

He also kept all their magic items that he could use, and gave them some he'd acquired over the years that he couldn't use.

[Crake]

just deleting. Never mind. What's the point.

you know you can actually just delete your post rather than leaving such a passive aggressive message in it's wake

[Gallowglass]

you know you can actually just delete your post rather than leaving such a passive aggressive message in it's wake

well what do you know.

Thanks Crake!

[Ortesk]

you know you can actually just delete your post rather than leaving such a passive aggressive message in it's wake

The passive aggressive was by far preferable to the before post, but I digress.

That info is useful, I didn't know about it myself

[Gallowglass]

The passive aggressive was by far preferable to the before post, but I digress.

That info is useful, I didn't know about it myself

Hey, the post I deleted was plain agressive-agressive.

[Crake]

The passive aggressive was by far preferable to the before post, but I digress.

That info is useful, I didn't know about it myself


well what do you know.

Thanks Crake!

Glad I helped you learn something new :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Dominate person would have resulted in a pretty similar situation given their lack of preparation.
Still the problem of quicken SLA.

Also even if you are optimizing enough for low level quickening of 5th-7th level spells, no enchanter worth his salt would ever spend it on dominate person. Kinda sucks when not fighting humanoids.

Two actions per turn instead of 1 kinda makes a difference.

[Trebloc]

Had they won on the init, it could have went down completely different. The fighter has stand still with a minotaur greathammer, at least until the contigency was set off, he could have beat the snot out of the mage and forced him to roll an absurd concentration check at every attempt to cast a spell (besides the contigency, he (on purpose) had no other reliable way to deal with melee attackers than to kill them before they got to him

Odd that the enchanter was super optimized but was lacking some "basics" like Celerity or other buffs already cast on himself. A level 13 anyone without a couple active defenses seems really odd to me, especially if he is fragile enough to potentially be one-shotted before he even gets to act. And wouldn't it be an incredibly anti-climatic battle if the PCs one-shotted the enchanter before he even acted?

Still, banking on their victory relying on only Mindblank or winning Initiative seems like a bad plan on your end. Obviously if they lose Initiative, they lose. And even if they win, the concentration check shouldn't be that hard for a level 13 caster to pull off casting defensively (DC22 Concentration check, and they probably have 16 Ranks + CON, so likely a +18ish without even trying), which really just rehashes the fight where he kills everyone in turn. And his Quickened abilities (though illegally gained) don't trigger AoOs, so he could have just killed the adjacent fighter with a Swift action, then moved & killed as necessary.


Yes, two of them have used Mindblank. The rogue and the Ranger are greener players, the healer and fighter have been playing longer than I have. And we have ran epic campaigns before.

And the bard owns the magic item shop in the town, which is why they have went to him before. They have used him for various scrolls, and to identify magical items. But I see your point about how in game, they had a valid reason to not know to go to the Bard for aid, with exactly the right wording. That is a valid point

Experienced doesn't equal super-optimized players. Also, it does seem odd to me for groups relying on buffs that are significantly above their power-grade. I mean, yeah it sucks to get color sprayed at level 1, but my answer to that has never been "Whelp, time to go find someone to cast a pity Mindblank on me."

I guess it could be argued they could have gone to the bard and said "Hey, we're fighting an enchanter in an hour, what do you have to help?" But to be fair, enchanter generally doesn't mean only enchantment spells as I said above.

[martixy]

I didn't flat out say he was a wizard, but I did say he was an enchanter (they have dealt with succubuses and the like before) but I may retcon it and admit my error. I did take from this to never use save or die though. I just figured playing a higher than normal human intellect, he would use the best method plausible

1. Admitting mistakes: Yes. Then move on and do better.
2. Never using save-or-die again: What are you? 15? "Oh, my girlfriend left me. I am never dating girls again!". When are things ever this black and white? Spells like can work very well as long as you find a way to make them meaningful. Like not popping them off like 0-level flashy lights till someone fails.
3. You have a better overview of the game as a DM. DO NOT shy away from pointing out silly mistakes to your players out of game. "Hey guys, he's a high level enchanter, are you sure you're prepared to deal with dominations and such?"
4. For the love of all that is unholy: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList (How Bond villain cliché can you get?)

To me it sounds like you were merely winging it, letting the rails carry you and your game. As a DM you have to be adaptive. You have to lead the game. Not let it flow in spite of you.
Live and learn.

[Malroth]

Meh They're above lv9, Death is just another status effect, have some family members/followers/fans/rivals/curious researchers use the parties loot to raise them, let them get a stern lecture about pre fight buffs from the enchanters familiar or something and let them continue as they wish.

[Dousedinoil]

From my experiences as a DM, you should know the people that you are DMing for better than anyone else. If they are the type of people that aren't interested in learning tactics and optimizing their characters, then sending an optimized one trick pony at them probably isn't fair. Let them have fun and give the players what they want in an adventure (for the most part). You can teach them tatics in a fun and friendly manner without punishing the party. If they aren't interested in that kind of game, adjust. You know your players better than anyone on the boards.

Sometimes you have to wing it and change your plans. If they PCs show up with no game plan, maybe the BBEG isn't their, maybe someone who knows his tactics is waiting for them as an ally. Maybe he just fought the BBEG and drove him away temporarily. He's too weak to go after him but directs them to a warehouse he's hiding in. Be creative.

[Ortesk]

Hey, the post I deleted was plain agressive-agressive.

But it had merit, which is why I wasn't offended by it. If was malicious without reason, I would have responded and likely roused the anger of higher beings. But again, it had merit and I deserved it. No harm, no foul.


Just to clarify: you like to run (I think) powerful one trick ponies, and give the party a hint about how to beat them. Fair enough.

But, this time, they didn't take the hint. Result: TPK.

When I say the town didn't help, I don't mean with force of arms (that would be suicidally dumb), but in helping nudge the party toward the right answer. Perhaps even having a low level character offer to let them borrow his ring of Protection from Evil, while pointing out how that will only protect from some of an enchanter's tricks, sorry he doesn't have something better to loan them, hint hint. Maybe have someone ask what's their plan, he's heard of this guy, he kills with a word hint hint.

Also, any conversations about general style going forward? If so, I'd love to hear the results of those conversations.

Usually I throw standard monsters from the MM at them (except for things like that OP crab and such) but occasionally I throw one trick ponies at them. They have dealt with them before, and I have told them OOC that anyone made as a powerful one trick pony will have a mechanical weakness, and a RP weakness. I give them both options to explore if they want (I believe in there being multiple ways to end a fight, and with me research and guessing can oftentimes defeat a foe)

Our discussion was that they admitted they had woefully underprepared, and going forward they know they can't rely on me saving them with plot armor. Fair enough
I had admitted my own failing on the matter, and they asked that I pull punches for awhile and let them learn combat techniques. Like if I throw an enchanter, let them beforehand get charmed or something trivial so they can ask how to handle the situation. i told them I would stick with the monster manual, and use a 25 point boy on any "bosses" and reign in his power. We really had no problems resolving the matter, I just knew that the issues had to be addressed.


1. Admitting mistakes: Yes. Then move on and do better.
2. Never using save-or-die again: What are you? 15? "Oh, my girlfriend left me. I am never dating girls again!". When are things ever this black and white? Spells like can work very well as long as you find a way to make them meaningful. Like not popping them off like 0-level flashy lights till someone fails.
3. You have a better overview of the game as a DM. DO NOT shy away from pointing out silly mistakes to your players out of game. "Hey guys, he's a high level enchanter, are you sure you're prepared to deal with dominations and such?"
4. For the love of all that is unholy: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList (How Bond villain cliché can you get?)

To me it sounds like you were merely winging it, letting the rails carry you and your game. As a DM you have to be adaptive. You have to lead the game. Not let it flow in spite of you.
Live and learn.

1. I have no issues admitting when I make a mistake. I never have. If I made an error in there favor, I bookmark it and move on. I do make them aware, but make sure they know it was my fault and they aren't going to be penalized. If I error against them, again i admit it and make any changes needed to rectify it.
2. Ignoring your rather....liberal interpretation of the matter, me and my party agreed to take that off the table. a bad dice roll ending an encounter or character didn't sound like something we wanted to do again. Both sides of the table agreed to that
3. Going forward I will find a way to do that, I just didn't want to come off as belittling or railroading.


From my experiences as a DM, you should know the people that you are DMing for better than anyone else. If they are the type of people that aren't interested in learning tactics and optimizing their characters, then sending an optimized one trick pony at them probably isn't fair. Let them have fun and give the players what they want in an adventure (for the most part). You can teach them tatics in a fun and friendly manner without punishing the party. If they aren't interested in that kind of game, adjust. You know your players better than anyone on the boards.

Sometimes you have to wing it and change your plans. If they PCs show up with no game plan, maybe the BBEG isn't their, maybe someone who knows his tactics is waiting for them as an ally. Maybe he just fought the BBEG and drove him away temporarily. He's too weak to go after him but directs them to a warehouse he's hiding in. Be creative.

good points, and I will try to change my style to adapt better. I generally am good at changing story progression based on characters, awful at changing tactics mid battle. Again, gotta try and work on that.

And they are learning tactics, and they like doing so. And they are happy with how the game is ran. Well one player asked for more RolePlaying, but I had explained I allow the party to dictate where things go. He needed to discuss with his peers the issue and them work together to balance RP and combat


Odd that the enchanter was super optimized but was lacking some "basics" like Celerity or other buffs already cast on himself. A level 13 anyone without a couple active defenses seems really odd to me, especially if he is fragile enough to potentially be one-shotted before he even gets to act. And wouldn't it be an incredibly anti-climatic battle if the PCs one-shotted the enchanter before he even acted?

Still, banking on their victory relying on only Mindblank or winning Initiative seems like a bad plan on your end. Obviously if they lose Initiative, they lose. And even if they win, the concentration check shouldn't be that hard for a level 13 caster to pull off casting defensively (DC22 Concentration check, and they probably have 16 Ranks + CON, so likely a +18ish without even trying), which really just rehashes the fight where he kills everyone in turn. And his Quickened abilities (though illegally gained) don't trigger AoOs, so he could have just killed the adjacent fighter with a Swift action, then moved & killed as necessary.



Experienced doesn't equal super-optimized players. Also, it does seem odd to me for groups relying on buffs that are significantly above their power-grade. I mean, yeah it sucks to get color sprayed at level 1, but my answer to that has never been "Whelp, time to go find someone to cast a pity Mindblank on me."

I guess it could be argued they could have gone to the bard and said "Hey, we're fighting an enchanter in an hour, what do you have to help?" But to be fair, enchanter generally doesn't mean only enchantment spells as I said above.

You make fair points, and I know I messed up. But the reason for no celerity/blink/ect was to make it winnable. I knew if I threw everything the wizard Could do at them, then they wouldn't win even with a game plan. I left holes so a gameplan could be had.

But yes, in hindsight making it purely reliant on the Bard was bad. Going forward, I will make sure it is still winnable, if quite difficult, even if they botch a little in prepping

[Flickerdart]

The PCs were fighting a powerful wizard. The question of who they should be angry at depends on the sort of game you run - if they were going into this knowing that you throw around SoDs like candy, it's their fault. If this is the first time the PCs have faced someone who isn't an Int 5 goblin holding the wrong end of the stick, it's your fault.

However, the real question is what you're going to do now. The party did just free a powerful vampire, who probably has some necromancer buddies. The PCs might get resurrected, or raised as intelligent undead. Imagine that enchanter's face when four vampires kick down his door and his precious final rebuke is useless.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The PCs were fighting a powerful wizard. The question of who they should be angry at depends on the sort of game you run - if they were going into this knowing that you throw around SoDs like candy, it's their fault. If this is the first time the PCs have faced someone who isn't an Int 5 goblin holding the wrong end of the stick, it's your fault.

However, the real question is what you're going to do now. The party did just free a powerful vampire, who probably has some necromancer buddies. The PCs might get resurrected, or raised as intelligent undead. Imagine that enchanter's face when four vampires kick down his door and his precious final rebuke is useless.Necropolitan is perfect for this, though I would also give the party enough XP to gain a level, since sometimes you learn far more from a defeat than from a win. Allow them to either buy the necropolitan template or the first level or two in an undead savage progression, such as ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) (with access to some ghost touch-inducing items -- like an equivalent to the wilding clasp, but with incorporeality -- or the Ghostly Grasp feat). If they want to be brought back as living creatures, make them aware that they won't gain those XP -- or at least, not as many of them, due to level loss. Perhaps the spells used to bring them back to life bestow a few free LA that can be spent on templates?

It's not exactly a reward, as such, but again, learning more from defeat, etc.